Death toll of the holocaust?

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Avalancheon
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Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by Avalancheon » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 am

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this forum. I came here because I want to find out what the true death toll of the holocaust was. I've been reading some of the threads on this website, and it seems to me that the two sides (the orthodoxists and the revisionists) work at opposite extremes.

The orthodoxists claim that 6 million jews were murdered, and the revisionists claim that 0 jews were murdered. And neither side is willing to haggle on the numbers, compromise, or outline a 'fallback' position.

As a guy who is on the fence about the holocaust, this represents a dilemma. Why? Because there is a huge 'middle ground' between 6 million and 0 that neither side are willing to enter. They don't even want to acknowledge its possibility.


So I would like to work around this false dichotomy and ask everyone present a simple question: If you were forced to abandon the 'party line', where would your fallback position be? How many people were killed during the holocaust?

permanent_denial
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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by permanent_denial » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:53 am

Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 am

...
the revisionists claim that 0 jews were murdered.
...
Empty strawman assertion in your very first post. You'll be up to speed with Nessie in no time!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

Avalancheon
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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by Avalancheon » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 am

permanent_denial wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:53 am
Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 am

...
the revisionists claim that 0 jews were murdered.
...
Empty strawman assertion in your very first post. You'll be up to speed with Nessie in no time!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I was simply generalising. Some orthodoxists will claim a number less than 6 million, and some revisionists will claim a number more than 0.

That was just my attempt at summarizing the 'party line' held by each side.

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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by permanent_denial » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:35 am

Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:53 am
Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 am

...
the revisionists claim that 0 jews were murdered.
...
Empty strawman assertion in your very first post. You'll be up to speed with Nessie in no time!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I was simply generalising. Some orthodoxists will claim a number less than 6 million, and some revisionists will claim a number more than 0.

That was just my attempt at summarizing the 'party line' held by each side.
Unlike CODOH, there is no "party line" for revisionism here. Hence the name "REAL Open Debate."
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

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blake121666
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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by blake121666 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:00 am

Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:53 am
Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 am

...
the revisionists claim that 0 jews were murdered.
...
Empty strawman assertion in your very first post. You'll be up to speed with Nessie in no time!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I was simply generalising. Some orthodoxists will claim a number less than 6 million, and some revisionists will claim a number more than 0.

That was just my attempt at summarizing the 'party line' held by each side.
NO Revisiomist, not one, claims that 0 Jews were murdered. All agree that the Einsatzgruppen murdered a very large number of Jews - at least in the hundreds of thousands. I suppose a few might quibble with the term "murdered"; but let's not argue semantics. Jews were shot in large numbers by the EG.

Revisionists generally claim that no Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers.

If you consider persons such as David Irving, Mark Weber, and David Cole and a few others to be in the Revisionist camp, then they claim that Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers as well.

David Irving essentially agrees with what you call "orthodoxists" on all matters (including numbers) other than Auschwitz HGCs. Irving claims that approximately a million more than the "orthodoxist" claims for the Aktion Reinhard camps were gassed - and therefore makes up for his Auschwitz HGC denial in this way to arrive at the same number.

Some of those that deny homicidal gas chambers claim that the total number of Jews that died in the war years approached up to 3 million. Eric Hunt claimed this based on Juergen Graf.

I would guess that most Revisionists are probably in the 1/2 million to one million range for the number of Jews that died during the war.

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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by permanent_denial » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:43 am

blake121666 wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:00 am
Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:53 am
Avalancheon wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 am

...
the revisionists claim that 0 jews were murdered.
...
Empty strawman assertion in your very first post. You'll be up to speed with Nessie in no time!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I was simply generalising. Some orthodoxists will claim a number less than 6 million, and some revisionists will claim a number more than 0.

That was just my attempt at summarizing the 'party line' held by each side.
NO Revisiomist, not one, claims that 0 Jews were murdered. All agree that the Einsatzgruppen murdered a very large number of Jews - at least in the hundreds of thousands. I suppose a few might quibble with the term "murdered"; but let's not argue semantics. Jews were shot in large numbers by the EG.

Revisionists generally claim that no Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers.

If you consider persons such as David Irving, Mark Weber, and David Cole and a few others to be in the Revisionist camp, then they claim that Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers as well.

Some of those that deny homicidal gas chambers claim that the total number of Jews that died in the war years approached up to 3 million. Eric Hunt claimed this based on Juergen Graf.

David Irving essentially agrees with what you call "orthodoxists" on all matters (including numbers) other than Auschwitz HGCs. Irving claims that approximately a million more than the "orthodoxist" claims for the Aktion Reinhard camps were gassed - and therefore makes up for his Auschwitz HGC denial in this way to arrive at the same number.

I would guess that most Revisionists are probably in the 1/2 million to a million range for the number of Jews that died during the war.
No, Blake, quibbling over "semantics" is exactly what we ought to be doing. the Einsatzgruppen was tasked with executing enemy forced and anyone aiding and abetting the enemy, a routine that was carried out in accordance with international standards for wartime engagement. It was very common for Jews and Soviets to be bunkered down together fighting it out with the German onslaught. This is chronicled in even Hollywood films like "Defiance" starring Daniel Craig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defiance_(2008_film)

I'd hardly call that "murder." In fact I'd NEVER call that "murder," it would be asinine to jump to that conclusion. "Dying" in war hardly finds moral equivalence to "outright murder," at least outside the polluted, sick mind of a Holocaust propagandist.

Now, we do know that Nazis certainly murdered Jews on occasion, for example Karl-Otto Koch, commandant of Buchenwald, was investigated, and eventually executed by the German military for doing just that. You can read about him on Wikipedia if you're unfamiliar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

Avalancheon
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by Avalancheon » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:24 am

blake121666 wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:00 am
NO Revisiomist, not one, claims that 0 Jews were murdered. All agree that the Einsatzgruppen murdered a very large number of Jews - at least in the hundreds of thousands. I suppose a few might quibble with the term "murdered"; but let's not argue semantics. Jews were shot in large numbers by the EG.

Revisionists generally claim that no Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers.
In your opinion, then, what did the ratio of deaths look like? How many jews were killed 'in the field' by the einsatzgruppen, vs how many were killed in the camps?
blake121666 wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:00 am
If you consider persons such as David Irving, Mark Weber, and David Cole and a few others to be in the Revisionist camp, then they claim that Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers as well.

David Irving essentially agrees with what you call "orthodoxists" on all matters (including numbers) other than Auschwitz HGCs. Irving claims that approximately a million more than the "orthodoxist" claims for the Aktion Reinhard camps were gassed - and therefore makes up for his Auschwitz HGC denial in this way to arrive at the same number.
Thats surprising. I didn't know there were that many 'brands' of revisionism.
blake121666 wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:00 am
Some of those that deny homicidal gas chambers claim that the total number of Jews that died in the war years approached up to 3 million. Eric Hunt claimed this based on Juergen Graf.

I would guess that most Revisionists are probably in the 1/2 million to one million range for the number of Jews that died during the war.
Okay, thanks for the feedback.

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Lammers
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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by Lammers » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:57 am

Welcome to RODOH,

If you are looking for numbers for specific camps, ESG squads, and a total for all, an open debate forum such as this would not produce a solid answer. Even the smallest things would be argued for decades, and no consensus would ever be made between the sides.

With "revisionists" currently, I have noticed that there are basically two sides. Most who will say that very few Jews died, but that the Jews were still treated badly by the Germans. The small remaining portion of "revisionists" generally claim that many Jews were killed by mobile killing squads, and in places like Treblinka and Belzec, but not in places like Auschwitz. So there are some people in the middle ground, but not nearly as many as there should be.


I do not think of myself as an "orthodoxist" or a hardcore "revisionist" either, I feel like more open and fair research needs to be done first, and people need to open their minds to new and other conclusions, both "revisionists" and "orthodoxists" alike.



Lammers

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Nessie
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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by Nessie » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:03 am

It is murder when civilians, including women and children are taken to places such as Ponary, Rumbula and Babi Yar, to be shot. They were not fighting anyone, they were prisoners in camps and ghettos. Plus, the Nazis had made it clear, in various documents and speeches, that the Final Solution for the Jewish question included their death.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Lammers
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Re: Death toll of the holocaust?

Post by Lammers » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:03 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:03 am
Plus, the Nazis had made it clear, in various documents and speeches, that the Final Solution for the Jewish question included their death.
When did they make that abundantly clear, or are you just assuming that's what they meant?

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