Treblinka Choo-Choo

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rollo the ganger
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Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by rollo the ganger »

Has any Rodohians out there ever visited Treblinka in person? Malkinia?

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neugierig
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by neugierig »

No, I have not, RTG, but Irving did and it convinced him that it had indeed been an extermination camp. :mrgreen:

Malkinia has always intrigued me, however. Josef Hirtreiter, at his, ahem, trial in 1951, insisted that he was stationed in Malkinia, not Treblinka. The shysters convinced him however that he must mean Treblinka. German “justice” at its finest.

Many moons ago I found a Wikipedia article on Malkinia, it has since disappeared and all I have is the printout, sans date. Here is what it said (I found it in German first):

“aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie
Wechseln zu: Navigation, Suche
Malkinia war ein großes Durchgangslager zur Zeit des Nationalsozialismus in Deutschland. Seine Aufgabe bestand darin, die Bewohner des Warschauer Ghettos dort einer Entlausung zu unterziehen, um sie weiter zu Zielorten im Baltikum, Weißrußland, der Ukraine und in den Lubliner Raum zu schleusen.
Neuere Spurenfunde des eingeebneten Entlausungs- und Durchgangslagers bestätigen seinen einstigen Standort, nämlich nord-westlich von Malkinia, 3 km nördlich von Treblinka, an der Straße Malkinia - Brok. Weitertransporte aus Malkinia sind in Bahnunterlagen dokumentiert, weil die Reichsbahn den dringend nötigen Transportraum mit entsprechenden Waggons an anderer Stelle abzuziehen und bereitzustellen hatte. Die vorhandenen Dokumente haben die Kriegswirren gegen Ende des Zweiten Weltkrieges überstanden und stehen interessierten Forschern zur Auswertung zur Verfügung. Belegt ist, daß dieses Durchgangslager bei
Treblinka früh eingeebnet worden ist. Fast nur noch die Luftfotos im Besitz der US-Amerikaner belegen den genauen Standort des damaligen Lagers, der demnach mittels Grabungen reproduzierbar ist. Dieses Durchgangslager für Transporte in den Osten ist ein wenig öffentlich gehandeltes Kapitel, das noch weiterer Untersuchung und Aufdeckung harrt. Die Forschung hat sich bisher noch wenig damit befaßt.
Zeugenaussagen dazu wurden auch noch nicht ausreichend überprüft, wohl weil andere Fakten als vordringlicher gelten mußten. Auch war spätestens ab 1945 Weißrußland von Stalin völlig abgeriegelt worden, so daß über den Aufenthalt bzw. Verbleib dortiger Flüchtlinge, Ghetto-Insassen und sonstiger Menschen bis heute nur wenig veröffentlicht worden ist. Ein weiteres noch dunkles Kapitel in der Erforschung tatbestandsmäßig fundierter geschichtlicher Historie und für die Angehörigen damals Betroffener.
Deutsche Nazi-Akten und Fernaufklärer-Luftaufnahmen vom 13, Mai 1944 und 16. Oktober 1944 befinden sich im National Archiv in Washington (US-Signatur: GX 72 F 933/44 SK Expl. 139/+ 140; + GX12290 F 3086 SK r2600 Expb 68 + GX 1946/44 SD Expl. 076).


And now in English:

“Camp Malkinia from Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia Changes too: Navigation, search
Malkinia was a large transit camp at present the national socialism in Germany. Its task consisted of submitting there the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghettos a delousing in order to channel it further to destinations in the Baltic, white Russia, the Ukraine and in the Lublin area. Newer trace finds of the evened out delousing- and transit camp confirm its former location, i.e. northwest from Malkinia, 3 km north of Treblinka, at the road Malkinia - to.

Transports from Malkinia are documented in train documents, because the National Railroad had to make room for urgently needed space. The existing documents survived the confusions toward end of the Second World War and are at the disposal for interested researchers for evaluation. There is evidence that this transit camp, near Treblinka, was evened out early. Only the air photos in the possession of the Americans occupy the exact location of the camp at that time, which is reproducible by means of excavations therefore. This transit camp for transportation into the east is a little publicly acted chapter, which awaits to still further
investigation and uncovering. The research was concerned so far still little with it. Testimonies in addition were also not yet sufficiently examined, probably because other facts than more urgently had applying. Also at the latest starting from 1945 white Russia had been completely blocked by Stalin, so that over the stay and/or the whereabouts of there refugees, Ghetto passengers and other humans to today little is published. A further still dark chapter in the study of facts-moderately founded historical history and for the members at that time concerning. German Nazi documents and long-range reconnaissance aircraft aerial photos of 13. May 1944 and 16 October 1944 are in national archives in Washington (US signature: GX 72
933/44 SK Expl. 139 + 140; + GX12290 F 3086 SK r2600 Expl. 68 + GX 1946/44 SD Expl. 076). Thus is scientifically proven and confirmed, Malkinia was a further, a third Treblinka camp.”


It is a lousy translation, not done by me. Some of the reconnaissance photos are in the book by John Ball (Air Photo Evidence), but not all, and I could not find the rest.

If anyone is interested I can scan the photos from Ball’s book, and also provide a better translation. But as mentioned, this article has disappeared.

In a publication by the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force, titled “Basic Handbook, KL’s (Konzentrationslager), German Concentration Camps”, May 1944, we have under:

“Malkinia (NE Poland) Reported in September, 1941, as ‘correctional camp’”.

Not much, I admit, but I am convinced that Malkinia served as a transit camp, TII could never have handled the numbers of Jews that were moved east and deloused first. It is however interesting that the Wiki article mentions three Treblinka camps. From the 'handbook' above:

"TREBLINKA (Poland) Location 80 Km. NE of WARSCHAU
Type:
September 1941 : reported as consisting of 3 camps:
I punitive camp for forced labour.
II KL
III Extermination camp for Jews”


No details re. the alleged extermination camp, and that in May 1944. But three camps are indeed referred to. I wish I was younger and in better health.

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

Roberto
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by Roberto »

neugierig wrote:No, I have not, RTG, but Irving did and it convinced him that it had indeed been an extermination camp. :mrgreen:

Malkinia has always intrigued me, however. Josef Hirtreiter, at his, ahem, trial in 1951, insisted that he was stationed in Malkinia, not Treblinka. The shysters convinced him however that he must mean Treblinka. German “justice” at its finest.
The impartial and independent judges of the German Federal Republic actually managed to prove that Josef Hirtreiter had been the sadistic SS-man known by Treblinka inmates as "Zepf" (a misspelling of "Sepp", the colloquial abbreviation of Hirtreiter's first name whereby he was known among his comrades). Hirtreiter was sentenced to lifetime imprisonment.

I have a copy of the judgment, which I may transcribe and perhaps also translate in a near future.
neugierig wrote:Many moons ago I found a Wikipedia article on Malkinia, it has since disappeared and all I have is the printout, sans date.
Yep, the article was removed after I informed Wikipedia that it was a load of bullshit presumably planted by one of Heink's coreligionists. There was never a camp at Malkinia other than some training camp for Wehrmacht or SS auxiliaries, IIRC. And the only connection between Malkinia and Treblinka was that trains bound for Treblinka passed the Malkinia station. From my partial translation of the judgment LG Hagen vom 20.12.1966, 11 Ks 1/64:
In the summer of 1942 there was such a bottleneck in the availability of transports that the SS leadership had to emphatically insist with the Reich Ministry of Transport in order to be able to continue Aktion Reinhard at all. The Secretary of State in the Reich Ministry of Transport, Dr. Eng. Ganzenmüller, replied as follows to the head of the RFSS’ personal staff, SS-Obergruppenführer Karl Wolff, on 28 July 1942:

Dr. Eng. Ganzenmüller

Secretary of State in the Reich Ministry of Transport

Deputy General Director of the German Eastern Railways

Berlin W 8, 28 July 1942

Vossstrasse 35

(Stamp)

Mr.

SS-Obergruppenführer Wolf

Berlin SW 11 (Secret)

Prinz-Albrecht-Str.8 (Stamp)

- Personal Staff of the Reichsführer SS -

Dear Party Comrade Wolf!

With reference to our phone conversation on 16 July I hereby pass on to you the following report from the General Directorate of the Eastern Railways (Gedob) in Krakow for your information:

"Since 22.7 a train per day with 5,000 Jews goes from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka, furthermore two trains per week with 5,000 Jews each go from Przemysl to Belzek. Gedob is constantly in touch with the Security Service in Krakow. This service agrees that the transports from Warsaw via Lublin to Sobibor (near Lublin) be interrupted for as long as conversion works on this route make transports impossible (about October 1942)."

The trains have been agreed with the Commander of the Security Police in the General Government. The SS and Police Commander of the Lublin District, SS-Brigadeführer Globotschnigg, has been informed.

Heil Hitler!

Yours faithfully

(Ganzenmüller)

Wolff answered him on 13 August 1942:

Führer-Headquarters 13 August 1942

Ba/Mz.

AR 10/19/42

To

Mr. Secretary of State in the Reich Ministry of Transport

Deputy General Director of the German Eastern Railways

Dr. Eng. Ganzenmüller

Berlin W 8

Vossstrasse 35

Dear Party Comrade Ganzenmüller!

For your letter of 28.7.1942 I thank you very much – also in the name of the Reichsführer-SS. I was especially pleased to take note of your communication that already since 14 days ago one train per day with 5,000 members of the chosen people is going to Treblinka and we are thus in conditions to carry out this population movement at an accelerated pace. I have myself contacted the entities involved so that a smooth execution of the entire measures seems guaranteed. I thank you again for your efforts in this matter and at the same time would like to ask you to also continue giving these issues your attention.

With best regards and

Heil Hitler!

Yours faithfully

W.
(Emphases added).
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

rollo the ganger
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by rollo the ganger »

Of course what I'm leading to is just what are the particulars of a train trip from Warsaw to Treblinka. Let's take a
look at Google Earth for starters. The line leaves Warsaw towards Malkinia in a North-Easterly direction but before it
reaches Malkinia it must first cross the River Bug which runs in an East to West direction at this location. After
crossing the River Bug it enters Malkinia. Now to get to Treblinka from Malkinia it must now proceed on another track in
a South-Easterly direction towards Seidlce. It will then need to cross the River Bug again on a bridge a little over a
mile from the first one to get to Treblinka. At Treblinka the train sits on a siderail while a shunting engine takes 20
cars at a time down to the camp which is located on an off-spur south of Treblinka.

If you read Holocaust Controversies this sounds easy enough. A 60 car train, which is nearly 3/5 of a mile long, say
3000 feet, could haul quite a load of people. However, in order for a train to change direction it would need a means by which to
do so. In Malkinia, in order to go south on the Malkinia-Seidlce line to Treblinka from the north heading Warsaw-Malkinia
it would have to do so by one of four methods. Trains do not make right turns.

1. Spur ramp from the NE line to the SE line. On Google Earth there appears to be such a spur ramp south of the River
Bug (near Borowe) but this is prior to the bridges on the opposite side of the river from Malkinia and I'm not sure when
this was built. A map of the area from 1936 does not show this spur so there's a question there.

2. Loop. A large loop is a common means of turnaround but there are no loops at Malkinia nor do old maps show there
ever was one.

3. Turn-table. Here an engine would have to decouple from the rest of the train and proceed on a separate track to the
turn-table and be turned around. The engine would then have to somehow be able to approach the train from the opposite
end and re-attached and proceed. However, there are no turn-tables at Malkinia. There are turn-tables at Seidlce and
Warsaw. A modification of this method would be to have a waiting engine heading the other way to pick up the train.

4. Wye. This is akin to a three-point turn for a train. The 1936 map of the area does show a wye on the track to Ostroleka
which leaves Malkinia on a easterly direction then loops back towards Ostroleka in a North-Westerly direction. The problem
here is that the Wye shown on the 1936 map has a short easterly leg. Outside the triangle formed by the Wye there must be
enough track to hold the entire length of the train, in this case over 3000 feet for a 60 car train.
The Wye today is gone but in 1936 the map does not show all legs long enough to handle such a train manuever of that size.

Before I continue, can anyone point out an eyewitness account from the holocaust of their trip from Warsaw to Treblinka
which takes into account any of the above means of changing direction at Malkinia?

neugierig
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by neugierig »

Ach so, ja, now I remember, it was you Herr Muehlenkamp who had the article removed. We wouldn’t want to have facts interfere with a good story, would we now?

And yet more paper, Herr Muehlenkamp, yawn. The Ganzenmüller letter is well known, one of the Holokaust support columns. But, do you know for certain that what the letter claims in fact happened? No. As you might remember – there was a war on. Also, do you know for certain that some of the Jews did not disembark at Malkinia? No. In that Wiki article, removed by you, reconnaissance photos are mentioned, did anyone of the ‘historians’ ever make an effort to find them? I doubt it, they have the Ganzenmüller letter, good enough for those quacks.

As for Hirtreiter, please enlighten me as to how German courts investigated. Did they send someone to Treblinka? Or did they just listen to the usual liars. The latter I am sure.

And now, Herr Muehlenkamp, please concentrate on what RTG is writing, very interesting that.

RTG, good going! As for witnesses, all I have is what Wiernick wrote, and he was a liar who probably never set foot in TII. He does, however, talk about “Camps 1 and 2”, and Malkinia was split in two by the road. In fact, the map drawn by Kurt Franz resembles Malkinia, was Wiernick interned there???

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

Roberto
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by Roberto »

neugierig wrote:Ach so, ja, now I remember, it was you Herr Muehlenkamp who had the article removed. We wouldn’t want to have facts interfere with a good story, would we now?
No, we don't want bullshit like that Malkinia article to interfere with fact-based information on Wikipedia.
neugierig wrote:And yet more paper, Herr Muehlenkamp, yawn. The Ganzenmüller letter is well known, one of the Holokaust support columns. But, do you know for certain that what the letter claims in fact happened? No.
Yes, actually. Ganzenmüller was passing on information from the General Directorate of the Eastern Railways, and why would the General Directorate of the Eastern Railways transmit false information to the Secretary of State in the Reich Ministry of Transport?
neugierig wrote:As you might remember – there was a war on.
Sure, and that was precisely the reason why the SS leadership "had to emphatically insist with the Reich Ministry of Transport in order to be able to continue Aktion Reinhard at all", as is pointed out in the judgment.
neugierig wrote:Also, do you know for certain that some of the Jews did not disembark at Malkinia? No.
Yes, actually. There's no evidence that anyone disembarked at Malkinia, and the correspondence between Ganzenmüller and Wolff clearly states that 5,000 Jews per day were going from Warsaw to Treblinka.
neugierig wrote:In that Wiki article, removed by you, reconnaissance photos are mentioned, did anyone of the ‘historians’ ever make an effort to find them? I doubt it, they have the Ganzenmüller letter, good enough for those quacks.
The actual quacks were the folks who claimed the existence of such "reconnaissance photos", of course without showing any of them. Rather strange, if one considers that such "reconnaissance photos" would be a big argument in favor of "Revisionism". Where is John Ball when his coreligionists need him?
neugierig wrote:As for Hirtreiter, please enlighten me as to how German courts investigated. Did they send someone to Treblinka? Or did they just listen to the usual liars. The latter I am sure.


Neither of both, actually. They interrogated eyewitnesses, who I'm sure were also cross-examined by Hirtreiter's defense, and decided after careful assessment of the interrogated eyewitnesses that they were essentially reliable.
neugierig wrote:And now, Herr Muehlenkamp, please concentrate on what RTG is writing, very interesting that.
It might be interesting if RTG had based his considerations on maps later than 1936. Deportations to Treblinka took place in 1942 and 1943, IIRC.
neugierig wrote:RTG, good going! As for witnesses, all I have is what Wiernick wrote, and he was a liar who probably never set foot in TII. He does, however, talk about “Camps 1 and 2”, and Malkinia was split in two by the road.
Funny to see you clinging to such feeble straws, Mr. Heink.

As to Wiernik, there's no room for reasonable doubt that he was in Treblinka, as some of his claims regarding that camp are matched by evidence independent of Wiernik.
neugierig wrote:In fact, the map drawn by Kurt Franz resembles Malkinia, was Wiernick interned there???
What map drawn by Kurt Franz, and what "camp" at Malkinia?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

rollo the ganger
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by rollo the ganger »

Roberto wrote:

"It might be interesting if RTG had based his considerations on maps later than 1936. Deportations to Treblinka took place in 1942 and 1943, IIRC."

Yes, that pesky 1936 map.

What the 1936 map shows is that there is an existing rail spur from the Malkinia-Seidlce line south of Treblinka where, obviously, it leads to the Treblinka camps. Exactly where everybody says it was and obviously there before the war. Hmmmm? Interesting. But then again we have the testimony of an eye witness Lucjan Puchala who recalled:

“Initially we did not know the reason for building the branch track, and it was only at the end of the job that I found out from conversation among the Germans that the track was to lead to a camp for Jews. The work took two weeks and it was completed on 15 June 1942. Parallel to the construction of the track, earthworks continued."

But, according to the 1936 map, the "branch track" already existed. To serve the already existing sand and gravel quarry. Maybe Mr. Puchala is mistaking this branch track for the construction of the spur ramp I mentioned just south of the River Bug near Borowe? But eyewitnesses don't mention that spur. For now it's a mystery. Either way, Mr. Puchala is mistaken.

Maybe Roberto can enlighten us on how that long train changed direction at Malkinia before I continue?

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Charles Traynor
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by Charles Traynor »

I have never been to Treblinka.

Rollo, have you ever questioned anyone outside of our tiny Holohoax community about the railroads in the vicinity of Treblinka? I suspect that somewhere in the world there are some steam train fanatics enthusiasts who could answer every question you have, and then some. Unfortunately I think speaking fluent Polish will probably be a necessity to get to the bottom of your questions.
Kitty Hart-Moxon (1998): "Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."

rollo the ganger
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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by rollo the ganger »

CT, I think we can progress with what we have for the time being. I'm simply trying to establish a few facts. Let's go ahead and hear what the Treblinka Station Master Franciszek Zabecki had to say [my highlights]:

"On 22 July 1942 he recalled receiving a telegram stating that "the running of a shuttle service from Warsaw to Treblinka with settlers" was to commence. The trains would be made up of sixty covered goods wagons; after unloading the trains were to be sent back to Warsaw.

"Our astonishment was immense," Zabecki commented. "We wondered what sort of settlers they were, where they were going to live and what they were going to do? We connected this news with the mysterious building in the forest."

Zabecki continued:

"The first train to arrive on 23 July 1942 made its presence known from a long way off, not only by the rumble of the wheels on the bridge over the River Bug, but by the frequent shots from the rifles and automatic weapons of the train guards."

As had been advised, "the train was made up of sixty covered wagons, crammed with people.

Twenty wagons were uncoupled from the train, and a shunting engine began to push them along the spur-line into the camp. A short while later it returned empty. This procedure was repeated twice more, until all sixty wagons had been shunted into the camp, and out again. Empty they returned to Warsaw for more 'settlers'."


If you believe Zabecki then it has been established that trains from Warsaw would have gone to Malkinia and then back across the River Bug in a southerly direction to reach Treblinka since he says he hears the trains crossing the bridge. They did not use any spur rail prior to the bridges like the one I mentioned may have been near Borowe. The trains were 60 cars in number (usually) and had to decouple in groups of twenty each to be sent to the camp itself. Other testimony, which I don't have in hand at the moment, claims the shunted trains (20 cars apiece) proceeded towards the camps at a walking pace, roughly two miles an hour and the camp itself is nearly two miles away from the Treblinka station as measured per Google Earth. Do the math for a time frame.

I believe we can all agree that if there were transports to the camp at Treblinka these are the facts at least in the logistics from Malkinia to Treblinka Station and then from there to the Camp.

Are we all good so far?

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Re: Treblinka Choo-Choo

Post by Roberto »

rollo the ganger wrote:Roberto wrote:

"It might be interesting if RTG had based his considerations on maps later than 1936. Deportations to Treblinka took place in 1942 and 1943, IIRC."

Yes, that pesky 1936 map.

What the 1936 map shows is that there is an existing rail spur from the Malkinia-Seidlce line south of Treblinka where, obviously, it leads to the Treblinka camps. Exactly where everybody says it was and obviously there before the war. Hmmmm? Interesting. But then again we have the testimony of an eye witness Lucjan Puchala who recalled:

“Initially we did not know the reason for building the branch track, and it was only at the end of the job that I found out from conversation among the Germans that the track was to lead to a camp for Jews. The work took two weeks and it was completed on 15 June 1942. Parallel to the construction of the track, earthworks continued."

But, according to the 1936 map, the "branch track" already existed. To serve the already existing sand and gravel quarry. Maybe Mr. Puchala is mistaking this branch track for the construction of the spur ramp I mentioned just south of the River Bug near Borowe? But eyewitnesses don't mention that spur. For now it's a mystery. Either way, Mr. Puchala is mistaken.
Or he was referring to a branch leading from the branch track into the camp, as portrayed in the images below.

Image

Image
rollo the ganger wrote:Maybe Roberto can enlighten us on how that long train changed direction at Malkinia before I continue?
Maybe Rollo can show the 1936 map and the Google Earth maps that his considerations are based on, for better understanding of the problem he is claiming.

What exactly is he claiming would have been a problem, by the way?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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