Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

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Lammers
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Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Lammers »

I came to this wonderful forum to discuss aspects of the Holocaust with others, and most of what I found was bickering, name calling, and questioning followed by questioning.

Here in this thread, I would like to have a nice discussion regarding how many people were in fact killed at Aktion Reinhard camps, and how the killing was done (if at all), with evidence to back up claims. I understand that there is already a thread on this topic, but it is filled with worthless name calling and rudeness.

These are the rules to this thread:
  • Absolutely no name calling whatsoever, that includes (but not limited to) describing people with any of the following names/titles: denier, believer, liar, promoter, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious, falsifier, revisionist, delusional, etc. It is also prohibited to use any variations to these phrases, for example: denialism, denialist, deny, denying, falsehoods, etc. None of these words or their synonyms can be used in any situation.
  • Trying to discredit posts and their content through name calling is also prohibited, such as stating that a post is a: lie, falsification, irrefutable, bullshit, etc.
  • A single, simple question may be asked per post if necessary, and it can only be asked after you answer their simple question to the best of your ability (if applicable). A question is anything asking for a response from another person, such as "describe this", or "name one"
  • Only one post can be made at a time before a response is received by someone. That means no spamming posts with single questions in them. If you need to add to your post, then edit it. Do not make another.
  • Bold text may be used to add distinction to parts of your post, such as the beginning of a list, but can only be used in moderation. Any size increase with text is completely prohibited, along with any color changes and excessive capital letters.
  • No using scare tactics of any kind, such as "What are you waiting for" or "almost all historians/scientists believe it", "Here are irrefutable facts, you just lack the courage to believe them", etc.
  • Unnecessary images/emoji may not be posted, such as face palm images, laughing face, etc. Only pictures that contribute to topic in some way.
  • Use of websites/organizations offering a monetary award in an attempt to "prove" your beliefs is prohibited. That includes even posting a link to any website that offers a reward.
  • Posts that do not contribute to the discussion in any way are prohibited.
  • Rudeness and incivility is not accepted here, as it doesn't contribute to the topic at hand.
  • If you avoid a question from someone, you are not allowed to ask them any, until you provide them with an answer to the best of your ability.
  • When quoting a post, please quote only their post and not the post before them (unless applicable) to avoid overly long posts.
  • If you think someones response to a question you asked is not sufficient, then tell them so in a respectful and civil manner, and ask them to add onto it. Any spamming of "stop dodging my questions" or anything similar to it is not allowed.
  • No using assumptions to attempt to discredit somebody or their post, such as "If you think that, then you must think the earth is flat", etc.
The entire point of these rules is to ensure civility, and allow the topic itself to be discussed, rather than the people writing the posts to be smeared. If you disagree with somebody, do it respectfully and state why. Any of the rules here may be changed if seen as necessary over the course of time. And of course, if you don't like the rules here, then promptly leave!

I permit any moderator to take action against anyone breaking these rules using any means necessary.
Last edited by Lammers on Sun May 28, 2017 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Depth Check
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Depth Check »

Lammers, I fully understand your desire for at least one topic in the HGD&D forum to be a place of civilised debate. Unfortunately a large proportion of our current user base on both sides of the Holocaust debate are willing to take long bans in order for that not to happen. If you really want a controlled environment for serious discussion of the Jäger Report please use the Formal Propositions in Holocaust History forum. For further details on setting up a Moderated debate please contact been-there via PM.

I've cleared the trolling posts and responses to them in order to give you a fresh start, but there are a couple of points I would like to make before this discussion gets going again: 1) I am unwilling to allow multiple topics in this forum which are at the mercy of each of the individual OP creators rules. 2) The following is outside the spirit of RODOH and is a form of censorship: "Use of websites/organizations offering a monetary award in an attempt to "prove" your beliefs is prohibited."

I will try to keep an extra eye on this topic in order for it to stay on track but if I am not around and you encounter problems with trolls please contact Joe Future or Budu Svanidze.

DC

Removed posts can be found here.

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been-there
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by been-there »

Lammers wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 12:25 am
I came to this wonderful forum to discuss aspects of the Holocaust with others, and most of what I found was bickering, name calling, and questioning followed by questioning.

Here in this thread, I would like to have a nice discussion regarding how many people were in fact killed at Aktion Reinhard camps, and how the killing was done (if at all), with evidence to back up claims. I understand that there is already a thread on this topic, but it is filled with worthless name calling and rudeness.
If you want a more regulated form of debate and/or to ask and reply to questions without the personal content you are complaining of, as DC wrote, you are welcome to try starting a discussion here: Formal Propositions in Holocaust History

The rules are explained here: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2492

You may not get any response though. Many here seem to relish the rough and tumble of personal bickering, etc.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Lammers
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Lammers »

Depth Check wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 2:31 pm
Lammers, I fully understand your desire for at least one topic in the HGD&D forum to be a place of civilised debate. Unfortunately a large proportion of our current user base on both sides of the Holocaust debate are willing to take long bans in order for that not to happen. If you really want a controlled environment for serious discussion of the Jäger Report please use the Formal Propositions in Holocaust History forum. For further details on setting up a Moderated debate please contact been-there via PM.

I've cleared the trolling posts from this topic in order to give you a fresh start, but there are a couple of points I would like to make before this discussion gets going again: 1) I am unwilling to allow multiple topics in the forum which are at the mercy of each individual OP creators rules. 2) The following is outside the spirit of RODOH and is a form of censorship: "Use of websites/organizations offering a monetary award in an attempt to "prove" your beliefs is prohibited."

I will try to keep an extra eye on this topic in order for it to stay on track but if I am not around and you encounter problems with trolls please contact Joe Future or Budu Svanidze.

DC

Removed posts can be found here.
Okay Depth, thank you anyways. I will attempt to keep this thread open for business, and I appreciate your concern. As for the "Use of websites and organizations offering a monetary award" piece, that is to prevent further trolling. I am not looking for money, I am more interested in the truth. If individual points want to be used of some of these sites, that is fine, I just don't want to hear the, "Well here is some money, if you have the truth, claim it, otherwise I am correct" sort of thing.

I will try to keep the moderators out of this if at all possible, as you guys obviously have other things to do.

Jeffk1970
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Lammers wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 12:25 am
I came to this wonderful forum to discuss aspects of the Holocaust with others, and most of what I found was bickering, name calling, and questioning followed by questioning.

Here in this thread, I would like to have a nice discussion regarding how many people were in fact killed at Aktion Reinhard camps, and how the killing was done (if at all), with evidence to back up claims. I understand that there is already a thread on this topic, but it is filled with worthless name calling and rudeness.

These are the rules to this thread:
  • Absolutely no name calling whatsoever, that includes (but not limited to) describing people with any of the following names/titles: denier, believer, liar, promoter, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious, falsifier, revisionist, delusional, etc. It is also prohibited to use any variations to these phrases, for example: denialism, denialist, deny, denying, falsehoods, etc. None of these words or their synonyms can be used in any situation.
  • Trying to discredit posts and their content through name calling is also prohibited, such as stating that a post is a: lie, falsification, irrefutable, bullshit, etc.
  • A single, simple question may be asked per post if necessary, and it can only be asked after you answer their simple question to the best of your ability (if applicable). A question is anything asking for a response from another person, such as "describe this", or "name one"
  • Only one post can be made at a time before a response is received by someone. That means no spamming posts with single questions in them. If you need to add to your post, then edit it. Do not make another.
  • Bold text may be used to add distinction to parts of your post, such as the beginning of a list, but can only be used in moderation. Any size increase with text is completely prohibited, along with any color changes and excessive capital letters.
  • No using scare tactics of any kind, such as "What are you waiting for" or "almost all historians/scientists believe it", "Here are irrefutable facts, you just lack the courage to believe them", etc.
  • Unnecessary images/emoji may not be posted, such as face palm images, laughing face, etc. Only pictures that contribute to topic in some way.
  • Use of websites/organizations offering a monetary award in an attempt to "prove" your beliefs is prohibited. That includes even posting a link to any website that offers a reward.
  • Posts that do not contribute to the discussion in any way are prohibited.
  • Rudeness and incivility is not accepted here, as it doesn't contribute to the topic at hand.
  • If you avoid a question from someone, you are not allowed to ask them any, until you provide them with an answer to the best of your ability.
  • When quoting a post, please quote only their post and not the post before them (unless applicable) to avoid overly long posts.
  • If you think someones response to a question you asked is not sufficient, then tell them so in a respectful and civil manner, and ask them to add onto it. Any spamming of "stop dodging my questions" or anything similar to it is not allowed.
  • No using assumptions to attempt to discredit somebody or their post, such as "If you think that, then you must think the earth is flat", etc.
The entire point of these rules is to ensure civility, and allow the topic itself to be discussed, rather than the people writing the posts to be smeared. If you disagree with somebody, do it respectfully and state why. Any of the rules here may be changed if seen as necessary over the course of time. And of course, if you don't like the rules here, then promptly leave!

I permit any moderator to take action against anyone breaking these rules using any means necessary.
Evening, Lammers.

Where would you like to start?

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Lammers
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Lammers »

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 4:29 am
Evening, Lammers.

Where would you like to start?
Welcome Mr. Jeff,

I would like to discuss the activities at the AR camps, mostly the evidence to substantiate them, such as through archaeology and other 21st century methods. What is your stance on those camps, most specifically Treblinka, the events that took place there, and how many you believe died? This is just your opinion, so share freely, only if you would like to.
I am somewhat unaware of much of what is purported to have happened there, but I am aware of the basics and some extra. Otherwise, feel free to get this started however you feel appropriate if not through sharing.


I understand that this is a fragile and controversial topic, and I appreciate you coming in with a friendly attitude. :D



Lammers

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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Very well. We'll start fresh tomorrow.

Jeffk1970
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Lammers, do you want to get us started?
I'd like to look at all three camps because I think that makes the most sense.
I'm at work today so I'll have to start small.
If you want we can go over the history of these camps and their function.

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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by SFinesilver »

Depth Check wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 2:31 pm
Lammers, I fully understand your desire for at least one topic in the HGD&D forum to be a place of civilised debate. Unfortunately a large proportion of our current user base on both sides of the Holocaust debate are willing to take long bans in order for that not to happen. If you really want a controlled environment for serious discussion of the Jäger Report please use the Formal Propositions in Holocaust History forum. For further details on setting up a Moderated debate please contact been-there via PM.

I've cleared the trolling posts and responses to them in order to give you a fresh start, but there are a couple of points I would like to make before this discussion gets going again: 1) I am unwilling to allow multiple topics in this forum which are at the mercy of each of the individual OP creators rules. 2) The following is outside the spirit of RODOH and is a form of censorship: "Use of websites/organizations offering a monetary award in an attempt to "prove" your beliefs is prohibited."

I will try to keep an extra eye on this topic in order for it to stay on track but if I am not around and you encounter problems with trolls please contact Joe Future or Budu Svanidze.

DC

Removed posts can be found here.

"...there are a couple of points I would like to make before this discussion gets going again: 1) I am unwilling to allow multiple topics in this forum which are at the mercy of each of the individual OP creators rules. 2) The following is outside the spirit of RODOH and is a form of censorship: "Use of websites/organizations offering a monetary award in an attempt to "prove" your beliefs is prohibited."


Lammers wanted to handicap real skeptics prior to the debate because censorship is the ONLY way the delusionalists have ever been able to "win" a debate about the holohoax.
D - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, Germany used "resettlement to the east" as a euphemism for transiting jews to the so-called "top secret" - PURE EXTERMINATION CAMPS - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

E - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the so-called "pure extermination camps" were - THE END OF THE LINE - for virtually everyone transited to those camps - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; during WW II, Germany actually transited jews to labor camps / ghettos - that were located east of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - ?? - Nessie's answer: True.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2078&start=210#p65945

SFinesilver
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Re: Aktion Reinhard: Forensic evidence and death counts (Civilized Version)

Post by SFinesilver »

Lammers:
Here in this thread, I would like to have a nice discussion regarding how many people were in fact killed at Aktion Reinhard camps

...

I am not looking for money, I am more interested in the truth.

Lammers, do you deny that:

Yad Vashem alleges that, in total, over two million people were murdered at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II?

Yes. - or - No. - ??
D - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, Germany used "resettlement to the east" as a euphemism for transiting jews to the so-called "top secret" - PURE EXTERMINATION CAMPS - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

E - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the so-called "pure extermination camps" were - THE END OF THE LINE - for virtually everyone transited to those camps - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; during WW II, Germany actually transited jews to labor camps / ghettos - that were located east of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - ?? - Nessie's answer: True.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2078&start=210#p65945

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