Size of Zyklon can

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:54 pm

Although I hate to spell it out and hurt someone's feelings, I am so appalled by the utter stupidity of Blake's post above that I must respond. Blake wrote above: "Yeah, half an hour sounds about right ... maybe even 20 minutes. But not much less in any sensible scenario with the blower."

Doesn't that depend upon the size of the blower relative to the size of the room--and upon the design of the supply and return ductwork? Is there any reason why the cyanide concentrations could NOT reach peak levels quickly, in a minute or two at most, if the blower were powerful enough? How can that be so hard to understand? We are not talking here about the use of discoids but of Zyklon-B granules in a basket just like in the standard ten-cubic meter DEGESCH fumigation chambers.

A window air conditioner arrangement is a dumb scenario and NOT a "sensible scenario" at all. Since the Leichenkeller had supply and return air ducts already, at least according to the plans provided by Pressac, a powerful blower (pick your own size and HP rating) there is no reason in the world why one would have had any trouble "dispersing" a lethal dose of cyanide quickly, within a few minutes at most, throughout the chamber--even to the remotest corner where little Izak is lying on the floor. Conceivably, the blower was too small, Walter Lueftl was convinced it was, but that could have been corrected easily enough based on some experience--not merely on some hypothetical HVAC calculations.

FPBerg

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blake121666
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by blake121666 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:16 pm

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Although I hate to spell it out and hurt someone's feelings, I am so appalled by the utter stupidity of Blake's post above that I must respond. Blake wrote above: "Yeah, half an hour sounds about right ... maybe even 20 minutes. But not much less in any sensible scenario with the blower."

Doesn't that depend upon the size of the blower relative to the size of the room--and upon the design of the supply and return ductwork? Is there any reason why the cyanide concentrations could NOT reach peak levels quickly, in a minute or two at most, if the blower were powerful enough? How can that be so hard to understand? We are not talking here about the use of discoids but of Zyklon-B granules in a basket just like in the standard ten-cubic meter DEGESCH fumigation chambers.

A window air conditioner arrangement is a dumb scenario and NOT a "sensible scenario" at all. Since the Leichenkeller had supply and return air ducts already, at least according to the plans provided by Pressac, a powerful blower (pick your own size and HP rating) there is no reason in the world why one would have had any trouble "dispersing" a lethal dose of cyanide quickly, within a few minutes at most, throughout the chamber--even to the remotest corner where little Izak is lying on the floor. Conceivably, the blower was too small, Walter Lueftl was convinced it was, but that could have been corrected easily enough based on some experience--not merely on some hypothetical HVAC calculations.

FPBerg
You're not hurting my feelings if that is what you mean by the first sentence, Berg. You like to hand wave too much. A few minutes for this, a few minutes for that ... show some examples. Give some data.

Your kreislauf graph implies that it took about 1/2 hour for concentrations to stabilize in a small delousing room:

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You make statements such as:
Berg wrote:there is no reason in the world why one would have had any trouble "dispersing" a lethal dose of cyanide quickly
And yet, people in US execution gas chambers average 10 minutes to die. THAT in a chamber designed to kill quickly - ostensibly at least; but who knows, maybe the designers are just idiots or something? Questions of how mixing would go are of course complicated. A bigger fan might very well just be pushing its concentration throughout the space and not mixing at all. You don't give any evidence of knowledge on these subjects.

Please put your argument into a form to be responded to. I get your argument as, "If the Germans were to gas people in rooms, they would've done that along the lines of how delousing tunnels worked - with a fan for one thing". This woulda/coulda/shoulda type thing is all well and good; but what does it give us? I could just as well say that they wouldn't have used Zyklon-B at all.

I've always been of the opinion that death through exposure would have been the easiest and most sensible alternative to what is being claimed. RTG brings this up from time to time. We don't really get to deal with woulda/coulda/shouldas in general though.

So please just get straight what your claim is. And I will then claim that my pre-dispersion of pellets claim is better than yours. Then we can do tests to see!

I can find all kinds of studies on getting pollutants OUT of a confined space. I haven't come across ONE though of how to pollute an unpolluted space with toxic poison the most efficiently. Go figure!

EDIT: Other than "Controled Atmospheric Stunning" of pigs and poultry. This is somewhat different than what we want though. We have to deal with the claims as they are - not alternatives (other than as asides to arguments against those claims).

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:30 pm

For American gas executions the gas evolves and disperses SLOWLY compared to the way it would have evolved and dispersed in a DEGESCH system--because the DEGESCH system had "forced-circulation."

Although the above graph shows a time of about half-an-hour for the cyanide levels to peak thoughout the gas chamber (no stabilization needed)--there is no reason to believe much shorter times could not have been e-a-s-i-l-y achieved with a more powerful blower. The key point the publisher of the graphs tried to make was that forced c-i-r-c-u-l-a-t-i-o-n or Kreislauf made a huge difference compared to ordinary convection without any blower as in primitve American gas execution chambers.

That is why the given holocaust legend is so ridiculous. According to the hoax, the fan (or "blower") was ONLY turned "ON" after everyone was dead. That is too absurd when one understands the technology and what the Germans were doing at the time. If one had a fan to vent the gas chamber in half-an-hour as alleged, why would anyone not have used the same fan during the killing of the victims also? The given legend is merely a revealing carry-over from the backward American execution techology. Here we see the heavy-handed fingerprints of the hoaxers themselves.

Surely, you can understand this?

FPBerg

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blake121666
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by blake121666 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:25 pm

Berg wrote:Surely, you can understand this?
Actually I can't. It's within the realm of possibility; but I am not an expert on how forced circulation enhances mixing. As I speculated above, for all I know, a bigger blower might just blow past the unmixed air and create "hot spots" of concentration. Your graph suggests that actually. With kreislauf, the peaks are overshot over the "without kreislauf" graph.

I put such type problems into the "difficult to analyse" bin of my mind. I need data to come to conclusions. We of course know that HCN "readily mixes" with air; but does that mean that if you were to shoot a concentration into a big room at high speed that the whole room would very very quickly settle into an average concentration? It might or might not. I'm not one to KNOW - without data on the matter.

I'm currently of the opinion that using Zyklon in the way alleged is not sensible on a number of grounds, actually. But we have to deal with that being the allegation though.

For example, the American execution gas chambers would not benefit from using Zyklon - as opposed to the "pot method". Zyklon has little benefit for gassing people (other than the fact that there looks to be less concern for explosions due to the slow evaporation rate compared to its dispersion rate).

Zyklon looks to be a very good method for fumigations though. With fumigations one is concerned with penetration (as RTG points out). For people, you just want them to get a quickly fatal dose.

I googled around to try to find how quickly the 90%+ CO2 concentrations are attained for pig stunning slaughter without any success. There are too many differences with that and the alleged HGCs anyway. Pigs are led into a relatively small enclosure of 90%+ CO2. It's a small enclosure and CO2 is what is used. Too different than what concerns us here.

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:04 pm

Well, then you are brain dead and i have no more time for you. So, sorry!

Get some help--but I can't even imagine how or what you should get. Bye-bye!

FPBerg

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blake121666
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by blake121666 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:08 pm

Berg is saying that the holocaust HGC allegations would be valid if a blower was used. I am saying that they would not - even with a blower.

While the mixing of HCN with the air in the room would OF COURSE be enhanced with a blower, it'd still take awhile to thoroughly mix EVEN WITH the blower. His graph clearly shows that.

Don't you think Degesch would use an appropriately sized blower in their optimized delousing system? If they could've just put a bigger blower in there to reduce the mixing lag from 1/2 hour to 3 minutes, don't you think they WOULD have? Of course they would have.

What added expense could a larger blower be compared with the 1/2 hour time savings? I bet they more or less optimized the blower size in their design.

A bigger blower would just result in the first peaks in that graph coming sooner but being much higher. IOW, you'd be pushing the concentration around and not dispersing it.

EDIT: Berg can't even tell us what the graph actually is. Are the graphs of the four corners and center of the room? Probably, but who knows? What size was the room? What size Zyklon can was used? What size blower?

EDIT 2: If I sat at the end of 100 ft long by 20 ft wide room and smoked a cigarette, would a very very large fan disperse that cigarette's smoke throughout the room evenly in 3 minutes? Of course it wouldn't. It would shoot that smoke down the room in one big concentration. It'd disperse however it'd disperse naturally - just spread around the room because it is being blown through and around the room. The bigger blower would just send bigger concentrations farther. One could work out the optimal fan for quickest dispersion. A bigger fan would not necessarily be better.

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theblackrabbitofinlé
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:07 pm

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We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsellor, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:16 pm

Thank you to the BlackRabbit for the above post with that great reference material from Testa. I had never seen that before but the pictures have appeared in several other publications on the subject and are well known to me--I have used some of them myself. There are no surprises there, either in the text or pictures.

Unfortunately, since the material is in German, Blake and others can never read it. The answers to Blake's first "edit" is spelled out. To Blake's second edit, I suggest Blake look at basic HVAC designs. With good ductwork, the gas will get to the ends of even the longest chamber with maximum strength cyanide.

FPBerg
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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theblackrabbitofinlé
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:21 pm

You're welcome Fritz.

I found it in a file created by the British War Crimes team that was investigating Bruno Tesch and his firm.
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsellor, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: Size of Zyklon can

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:26 pm

Bruno Tesch was totally innocent of the charges. The essay that BlackRabbit provided is about as clearly written and thorough as anything could be. No doubt, the British prosecutors were as dumb as Blake and as vile as anyone could possibly be to not understand what was really going on.

How old are you, Blake? Do you have any real world experience--like outside of your mother's care?

FPBerg

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