So who actually died in the holocaust?

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john2
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So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by john2 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:37 pm

The usual claim is that 6 million Jews died. How exactly is that number arrived at? In a book I read awhile ago the simply showed the difference in the Jewish population before and after the war. But this is rather spurious. If a Jew died from a bombing raid are they considered part of the "holocaust"? It would seem one has to prove that each person died specifically because they were Jewish. Anne Frank for example was NOT a victim of the holocaust even though she is routinely held up to be one. She died of typhus - she was not deliberately killed. So for those who claim the holocaust happened I challenge to a) submit a list of all 6 million who supposedly died and b) prove they were deliberately killed because they were Jewish.

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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by been-there » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:17 pm

Welcome John.
---------------------------------------
Ah yes. Finally, the six million question. Who were they? And what exactly is expected of us concerning them? What are we supposed ti believe actually/allegedly happened to them?

First of all I repeat that however many it was, it was too many and a terrible tragedy of epic proportions for those people and their relatives.
But consider the following: when I very first began posting simple questions of what has come to be called 'THE Holocaust' with some doubts, on an online discussion board, people started quizzing me to check if I had become a dastardly 'denier'. (One, who considered herself 'Jewish' even said I was "mentally sick" and "perverted")
The very first volley of return questions to my innocent questions were when some 'Jewish' members of that particular forum immediately wanted to know whether I doubted that six million Jews had died in the holocaust during WW2 or not.
That seems to have become some sort of litmus test amongst the general uninformed populace of how "dastardly" and "sick" one is. Take a look on Wikipedia. If you doubt or question the approximate but sacrosanct 6 million figure you are a "denier".

But, think about it.
What is it that is being asked there exactly?

Is it how many Jews were killed in total during WW2?
I myself should imagine that of the estimated 48 to 62 million people (opinions vary) who were killed in WW2, the amount of people who could be regarded as 'Jewish' who were killed in that conflict could be much HIGHER than 6 million. How many Brits, French, Russian or American claimed Jewish ancestry perished as combatants? Are they included? Who knows?

Is the question as to whether that number of 6 million were gassed? The answer to that would be obviously not. Isn't it?
Ah, but no. Surprisingly, some people who ought to know better, do make this ill-informed and ignorant claim.

Is the question as to whether that number of 6 million died in concentration camps? The answer to that would be that there is no precise accepted figure anyway, and Raul Hilberg (one of those most well respected and considered a pre-eminent historian on this topic) estimates a number of 2.9 million who perished in the camps.

Is the question being asked concerning the amount of Jewish prisoners (combatant and non-combatant) who died in total in German occupied territories? If so Raul Hilberg again, estimates that figure at 5.1 million.

My point is that I didn't really know what the question being asked of me was about specifically.
And I suspect neither did the vast majority of people who asked it, as a knee-jerk reaction to my initial attempt at a reassessment of this episode of history. Its the figure we must accept without question or quibble or be branded and attacked with ad hominem epithets.
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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by rollo the ganger » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:12 am

Welcome to the Forum John2. However, for asking such a question be prepared to be called every name in the book and insulted endlessly by the likes of Bernard (aka "The Dog"), Statistical Mechanic (aka "Stupid Moron"), and Duke (aka "Nexgen"). You will find no intelligent debate from the likes of those creatures.

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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by Joe Future » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:05 am

Not sure who uses these akas RtG but they look exactly like ad hominem to me so knock off the well poisoning please. You should be capable of a simple welcome without launching into a vague attack.
That's not a semi colon, that's a colon!

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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by Cerdic » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:37 am

Asking for a list of every single Jew who died is a deliberate exploitation of the nature of the Holocaust, which was in large part anonymous mass murder. However, we do have various records and reliable estimates - such as the Yad Vashem and Red Cross records - that give us insight into the genocide.

I don't think they would technically be considered part of the Holocaust if they didn't die at the hands of the Germans in 1939-1945. However, the statistics are not 100% precise - not all records are as good as for the Dutch Jews - so no figure should be considered final.

By the way, contrary to denier memes, I do not think the number of dead Jews was precisely six million, nor do historians (see Hilberg et al)

However, one indication of the depth of the genocide:
Up to September 1939 Poland had a Jewish population of 3,351,000. Exact figures on the number killed between September 1939 and 1944 are not available, but the following account is a relatively well-founded estimate. Shortly after the end of the war, the Central Committee of Polish Jews began registering all surviving Polish Jews and by June 15, 1945, 55,509 had registered. Since some people registered several times with different local committees a round figure of 55,000 is assumed, which included a certain number of Jews who succeeded in returning to Poland from the Soviet Union. To this must be added 13,000 Jews in the Polish army formed in the U.S.S.R. in 1941, and approximately 1,000 Jews (out of 2,000) who had saved themselves by posing as "Aryans" and had not registered with the Jewish committees, bringing the total to 69,000. The number of Polish Jews who were saved by fleeing in September 1939 to the Soviet Union, to certain European countries, to Palestine, or to North and South America, or who survived the camps in Germany, is estimated at a maximum of 300,000 (250,000 of whom had fled to the U.S.S.R.). The sum total of surviving Polish Jews is therefore about 369,000, i.e., 11% of the prewar population, while 2,982,000 Jews were killed.
"Poland." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. 2nd ed. Vol. 16. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 287-326. Gale Virtual Reference Library. Web. 3 June 2014. It can be accessed if you click the access link hereand type Poland into the address box.

For the Soviet Union, the following figures for the parts not including former eastern Poland (Poland was dealt with above) were estimated by Arad (Holocaust in the Soviet Union, p.525):
Region Jews under German occupation Survivors Victims

East Belorussia 230,000–240,000 6,000–7,000 224,000–233,000
East Ukraine 680,000–710,000 13,000–17,000 667,000–693,000
Russia 60,000–70,000 5,000 55,000–70,000
Baltic states 280,000–285,000 10,000–11,000 270,000–274,000
Bessarabia 227,000–232,000 51,000–53,000 176,000–179,000
To take even the lowest estimates, out of 1.477 million Jews in the USSR (excluding former eastern Poland), around 1.39 million were killed and only 80 thousand survived.

The statistics above refer only to Jews who were under German occupation - not Jewish soldiers or Jewish refugees to the interior of the USSR.

And also:
To the number of direct victims among the Jews of the Soviet Union there must be
added an estimated 75,000 to 80,000 Jewish prisoners of war who were murdered
by the Germans merely for being Jewish
ibid.
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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by been-there » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:14 am

STRAWMAN MISREPRESENTATION Numero 1:
"By the way, contrary to denier memes, I do not think the number of dead Jews was precisely six million, nor do historians."
This will give you an idea John, of the level of intelligence in many of the replies you can expect to recieve from the defend-the Holocaust-at-all-costs personell here. Obviously no-one expects the figure to be exactly 6 million. Not revisionists, not historians: perhaps only someone with unfortunately limited intelligence.

STRAWMAN MISREPRESENTATION Numero 2:
"Asking for a list of every single Jew who died..." is again a sign of the depth of understanding behind this reply to your reasonable question of "...How exactly is that number - 6 million Jews died - arrived at?"

That repository of current consensus, heavily-Americanised, human knowledge(?), wikipedia-in-English claims that we know it was six million because Rudolph Höss (omitting to mention it was under torture) allegedly confirmed Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl who are both claimed to have stated that Adolf Eichmann gave them that figure in 1945. :roll:
'The Holocaust' (from the Greek holókaustos:"burnt whole") also known as Shoah (Hebrew: HaShoah, "the catastrophe"; Yiddish: Churben or Hurban, from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout the German Reich and German-occupied territories.
Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[Dawidowicz 1975, p. 403.]

The killings were systematically conducted in virtually all areas of German-occupied territory in what are now 35 separate European countries.
It was at its most severe in Central and Eastern Europe, which had more than seven million Jews in 1939. About five million Jews were killed there, including three million in occupied Poland and over one million in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of thousands also died in the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Yugoslavia, and Greece. The Wannsee Protocol makes it clear that the Nazis intended to carry their "final solution of the Jewish question" to Britain and all neutral states in Europe, such as Ireland, Switzerland, Turkey, Sweden, Portugal, and Spain.

Since 1945, the most commonly cited figure for the total number of Jews killed has been six million. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed, but has been able to find documentation of more than three million names of Jewish victims which it displays at its visitors center. The figure most commonly used is the six million attributed to Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
The German policeman, Gestapo agent, Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, was the prime Prosecution witness at the Allies’ Nuremberg Tribunal and as such is the source of the allegation that the Germans murdered Six Million Jews during the course of the Second World War. Hoettl’s claim was accepted at the Allies’ Nuremberg trial on face value, and without any further attempt undertaken of an independent, objective, forensic examination of the charge, that the the Germans had committed a crime of such mass-murder.

At a later date, after the hysteria of the war-years had abated somewhat, the U.S. officials responsible for handling their witness-agent, Wilhelm Hoettl, had time to reflect on the character of their prime prosecution witness. Let us be clear here: had Hoettl not played the role allotted to him at Nuremberg, then without doubt he would have suffered the same fate as many of his erstwhile colleagues: the hangman’s noose.

Many years later, the reports of U.S. Intelligence agents relating to these events were made public. Herewith their confidential opinion of the said Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl:

“Upon his arrest in May 1945, Hoettl played to the interests of his captors…”

“Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl is a fabricator of intelligence information. His reports normally consist of a fine cobweb of fact, heavily padded with lies, conjecture and other false information.”

“a man of such low character and poor political record that his use for intelligence activities, regardless of how profitable they may be, is a short-sighted policy by the U.S.”

The prime Prosecution witness and source of the Six Million allegation revealed, at last, as such a “low character, dealing in lies, deceit conjecture and other false types of information”, that his use by the U.S., regardless of “how profitable it may be, is a short-sighted policy.”

Of the Truth revealed, one can only say: Better late then never.

For the revelations of Hoettl’s true character, see the Journal of Historical Review, of September-December 2001, Vol 20, no.5-6, pages 25-32.
It would appear then that the 6 million figure was a number already extent in Jewish literature and mythology which Hoettl went along with to please his interrogators, and confirmation of which Höss had beaten out of him by his Jewish torturers. Historians since Gerald Reitlinger have thus felt the necessity to match up their research to this initial mythological total by always adding the magic number six as their highest estimate.
Last edited by been-there on Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cerdic
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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by Cerdic » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:43 am

Alleged strawman 1#: It was John2 himself in the first post who asked for a list of all 6 million as if that was a totally precise figure.

Alleged strawman 2#: Again, John2 requested a list of all "6m" dead Jews in his opening post. Read it again.

The number of approximately six million (which, for the record, I think is too high) is arrived at by numerous sources - such as transportation records, Einsatzgruppen reports, perpetrator confessions and pre and post war demographic comparisons.

Please cite your sources. Your second quote was from the site of Carolyn Yeager.

I notice you have nothing to say about the fact that almost all of the Polish and Soviet Jewry under German occupation died as I demonstrated in my above post.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by been-there » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:03 am

"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: So who actually died in the holocaust?

Post by Duke Umeroffen » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:44 pm

Its obsessive perseverative vacuous done to death crap presented as important and earth shattering that really make me wonder why anyone responds to you guys ever.
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Reply to Cerdic

Post by john2 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:37 pm

Asking for a list of every single Jew who died is a deliberate exploitation of the nature of the Holocaust, which was in large part anonymous mass murder.
So if we don't know who these people were how do we know they were even Jewish?!

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