Another reliability of eyewitness testimony topic

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Nessie
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Another reliability of eyewitness testimony topic

Post by Nessie » Fri May 17, 2019 4:29 am

Turnagain wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:24 pm
been-there wrote:
Obviously the "accusation" under disccussion has been that of mass-murder, principally by mass-gassings of millions of Jews. I.e. the Jewish Holocaust accusation.
We are here at RODOH talking about THAT accusation.
The one which has been made against Hitler, Himmler, Frank, Eichmann, Höß and a host of others in the NSDAP.
Let's look at one of the "nuts and bolts" assertions of the exterminationists. It's claimed that ~700,000 people were gassed and buried at Treblinka before being exhumed and cremated. Wiernik's book, "A Year in Treblinka" was once said to be a "seminal work" and a "cornerstone" of the holyhoax. In it he claimed that a single excavator was used to dig the graves. He also claimed that people who had died from CO poisoning were yellow in color. The model that he built of Treblinka showing the graves and the stockpiles of excavated soil is absurdly inaccurate.

From one of the supposedly most reliable eyewitnesses it's obvious that Wiernik saw NO bodies killed with CO and saw NO giant mass graves. That is supported by the fact that nobody has ever produced any evidence of the 10X25X50 meter graves as he described them. Then we have the dimensions and number of graves by Rajchman along with his tale of flammable blood. Both Wiernik and Rajchman claimed to have been in Treblinka for nearly its entire existence and both eyewitnesses are proven liars. Until some actual proof that people were gassed, buried, exhumed and cremated at Treblinka then the accusation of mass murder remains unproven.
The problem with your argument is that it is fallacious. That witness testimony is known to be unreliable does not therefore mean witnesses lied. You cherry pick parts of the testimony from only a few of the witnesses and then claim all the witnesses lied. Even you should be able to see the logical fail you have made.

To find out what happened, we need to look at what is and what is not corroboratively evidenced.

There are other witnesses who also say that there was gassing, bodies were buried, then exhumed and cremated to try and hide what had happened at the camp. Importantly, those witnesses come from different countries, were at the camp at different times and many were those who were responsible for the running of the camp. When both witnesses and accused agree a crime was committed, that is strong corroborative evidence.

What the witnesses say would be found at the camp is what has been found there. The witnesses describe the camp being razed to the ground after the bodies had been exhumed and cremated. Bare ground containing human bones and cremated remains are what is there. That finding is agreed upon by both Polish and British qualified experts.

No evidence has been found of the only alternative to gassings, which is c850,000 left the camp.

That means logically, scientifically, historically, empirically, evidentially, the gassing claims have been proved.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Nessie » Fri May 17, 2019 4:36 am

blake121666 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:11 pm
been-there wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:10 am
Obviously the "accusation" under disccussion has been that of mass-murder, principally by mass-gassings of millions of Jews. I.e. the Jewish Holocaust accusation.
We are here at RODOH talking about THAT accusation.
The one which has been made against Hitler, Himmler, Frank, Eichmann, Höß and a host of others in the NSDAP.

It is an extremely serious accusation. It is one that has had huge and far-reaching consequences. It has traumatised millions of Jews into feeling justified in harbouring negative emotions of hatred, mistrust, self-pity and for perpetrating their own brutal slow-genocide of non-Jews in occupied Palestine.

It is a victor 'atrocity-propaganda' accusation that has traumatised millions of non-Jews into hating far-right political groups, and justified them feeling hatred, anger and violent thoughts towards anyone they suspect of being a neo-nazi or an 'H-denier'. It has severely limited our freedom of speech and even of thought. It has made nationalistic opinions anathema. It has enabled almost irreversible multi-culturalisation of many areas of Europe.

This mass-gassing mythology is the fantastic and non-credible genocidal atrocity accusation that needs to have fantastic empirical evidence to support it. We here know that when asked for some, none can be provided.

May I request other RODOH contributors do not respond to idiotic posters seeking to derail this discussion away from the flawed holocaust narrative into participating in personal put-downs.
This was very well said, BT. I think anyone can relate to this attitude.
The flawed Holocaust narrative is the denier one, since it cannot be evidenced. It lacks witnesses, documents, physical or any form of empirical evidence.

Instead it claims the witness, documentary and physical evidence for gassing is flawed/lies etc, therefore there is no evidence of gassing and therefore there was no gassing. That is as bad and illogical an argument, as claiming because there is no evidence of mass departures from the camps, therefore those people were gassed. No one would rationally accept that as an argument.

Deniers are making an extraordinary claim of no mass gassing, which means over 2 million people were not gassed and instead the Nazis kept them alive somewhere in camps and ghettos. That claim needs evidencing.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Huntinger » Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:29 am
The problem with your argument is that it is fallacious. That witness testimony is known to be unreliable does not therefore mean witnesses lied. You cherry pick parts of the testimony from only a few of the witnesses and then claim all the witnesses lied. Even you should be able to see the logical fail you have made.
Research has found that eyewitness-identification testimony can be very unreliable. ... Although witnesses can often be very confident that their memory is accurate when identifying a suspect, the malleable nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence.
To find out what happened, we need to look at what is and what is not corroboratively evidenced.

There are other witnesses who also say that there was gassing, bodies were buried, then exhumed and cremated to try and hide what had happened at the camp. Importantly, those witnesses come from different countries, were at the camp at different times and many were those who were responsible for the running of the camp. When both witnesses and accused agree a crime was committed, that is strong corroborative evidence.

This could well be a fine example of collusion. Criminals often do this to get their "story straight" prior to questioning by the authorities. There were rumours of such things happening as far a field as Romania so such people would also be looking for confirming evidence, which would explain why steam coming out of shower rooms were misinterpreted as "Steaming executions"
What the witnesses say would be found at the camp is what has been found there. The witnesses describe the camp being razed to the ground after the bodies had been exhumed and cremated. Bare ground containing human bones and cremated remains are what is there. That finding is agreed upon by both Polish and British qualified experts.

This is the point, of course they would know the camps were no longer there, that is a matter of fact and this knowledge has little to do with what went on there.
No evidence has been found of the only alternative to gassings, which is c850,000 left the camp.

Most likely they were trucked to other labour camps and farms to work for the Reich. As the Soviets advance they were either assimilated or integrated into the Soviet Union like most of Europe at the time. There are other alternatives to gassings as they have all been put on here: these are:
  • Shooting
  • Bayoneting
  • Strangling/hanging
  • Beheading
  • Burning alive
  • Starving
  • Disease
  • Flogging to death
  • Electrocuting
  • Lobstering
  • Suffocating
  • Atom bombing
  • Dynamite
  • Hanging Drawing and quartering
  • Ray guns
  • Head knocking machine
  • Sledge Hammering
  • Tree climbing
  • Death by a thousand cuts/bleeding
  • Removing brain while alive
  • High pitched noise
  • thrown of buildings
  • tying to railway line
  • quicklime
  • Acid
  • smashing on the wheel
  • Iron Maiden
  • Tied to four horses
  • Poisoned food or water
  • Injection of Carbol to the heart
All of the above have been claimed to have been used by the evil Narzis. Gassing is not the only alternative.
𝕰𝖎𝖓 𝖁𝖔𝖑𝖐, 𝖊𝖎𝖓 𝕽𝖊𝖎𝖈𝖍, 𝖊𝖎𝖓 𝕱𝖚̈𝖍𝖗𝖊𝖗

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Nessie » Fri May 17, 2019 4:59 am

Huntinger wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 am
Nessie wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:29 am
The problem with your argument is that it is fallacious. That witness testimony is known to be unreliable does not therefore mean witnesses lied. You cherry pick parts of the testimony from only a few of the witnesses and then claim all the witnesses lied. Even you should be able to see the logical fail you have made.
Research has found that eyewitness-identification testimony can be very unreliable. ... Although witnesses can often be very confident that their memory is accurate when identifying a suspect, the malleable nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence....
Which means that we need to look at what else is evidenced by other means and importantly what cannot be evidenced.

You admit human memory is flawed, so you have to accept that testimony will contain mistakes and exaggerations. You also have to accept that just because someone lies about one thing, that does not mean they lied about everything.

That then explains the denier cherry picked issues with some of the witnesses. Those witnesses made mistakes, exaggerations and they lied about some of what happened.

To find out what witness evidence can be trusted and what cannot, we need to look at what other evidence there is and importantly what cannot be evidenced at all.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Nessie » Fri May 17, 2019 5:09 am

Huntinger wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 am
.....
To find out what happened, we need to look at what is and what is not corroboratively evidenced.

There are other witnesses who also say that there was gassing, bodies were buried, then exhumed and cremated to try and hide what had happened at the camp. Importantly, those witnesses come from different countries, were at the camp at different times and many were those who were responsible for the running of the camp. When both witnesses and accused agree a crime was committed, that is strong corroborative evidence.

This could well be a fine example of collusion. Criminals often do this to get their "story straight" prior to questioning by the authorities. There were rumours of such things happening as far a field as Romania so such people would also be looking for confirming evidence, which would explain why steam coming out of shower rooms were misinterpreted as "Steaming executions"
Collusion between accused and victim, where they are enemies and from different countries, is highly unlikely.

It is compelling corroborative evidence that the Nazis who ran the camps agree wit the prisoners forced to work in the camps, that there was gassing and then to try and hide how many had been killed and by what means, the bodies were exhumed and cremated and the gas chambers demolished and buried.
What the witnesses say would be found at the camp is what has been found there. The witnesses describe the camp being razed to the ground after the bodies had been exhumed and cremated. Bare ground containing human bones and cremated remains are what is there. That finding is agreed upon by both Polish and British qualified experts.

This is the point, of course they would know the camps were no longer there, that is a matter of fact and this knowledge has little to do with what went on there.
What the witnesses describe happened to the bodies and the camps is corroborated by the physical evidence left behind at those camps.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Nessie » Fri May 17, 2019 5:12 am

Huntinger wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 am
....
No evidence has been found of the only alternative to gassings, which is c850,000 left the camp.

Most likely they were trucked to other labour camps and farms to work for the Reich. As the Soviets advance they were either assimilated or integrated into the Soviet Union like most of Europe at the time.
Why should anyone believe that, when you cannot evidence it happened?
There are other alternatives to gassings as they have all been put on here: these are:
Shooting
Bayoneting
Strangling/hanging
.....
All of the above have been claimed to have been used by the evil Narzis. Gassing is not the only alternative.
The only alternative to being killed inside the camp is that they left the camps. If c850,000 people left TII, that would leave evidence. There would be witnesses, documents, physical evidence. It is impossible to have moved that many people and leave no evidence at all.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Smallhausen » Fri May 17, 2019 5:15 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:59 am
Research has found that eyewitness-identification testimony can be very unreliable. ... Although witnesses can often be very confident that their memory is accurate when identifying a suspect, the malleable nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence....
Which means that we need to look at what else is evidenced by other means and importantly what cannot be evidenced.

You admit human memory is flawed, so you have to accept that testimony will contain mistakes and exaggerations. You also have to accept that just because someone lies about one thing, that does not mean they lied about everything.

That then explains the denier cherry picked issues with some of the witnesses. Those witnesses made mistakes, exaggerations and they lied about some of what happened.

To find out what witness evidence can be trusted and what cannot, we need to look at what other evidence there is and importantly what cannot be evidenced at all.
[/quote]
This may be the case, but a crime of this magnitude needs evidence of a much higher standard than what has been presented to date. As most have said, that if there is sufficient empirical evidence of sufficient quality by independent investigators such as OPCW, there would be no deniers, just revisionists of History who can debate whether Neville Chamberlain did the right thing for his country etc.

It is also clear that many if not all eye witnesses have not made mere mistakes through time but have completely distorted the reality for whatever reason. I would go further to say that this evidence should be totally discounted.

The so called witnesses who said they saw bones etc at Treblinka were I think you said Soviets, who were part of a criminal regime committing such crimes as at Katyn as well as internal culling of the military, secret police and citizens. Nothing they say can have any value.

The Colls investigation was a bit of a let down as this researcher was not unbiased nor particularly impartial, especially when she misinterpreted the trademark signature on tiles as the "Star of David". However, should a totally impartial highly professional group similar in status to say the OPCW investigated and found cremains in sufficient quantities to account for about almost a million people then most would concede that there was indeed a Holocaust. This is not the case at least at the moment.

The issue hoaxers have is that this whole area was in the jurisdiction of a criminal regime who had the time, the manpower and the motivation (including resources) to perpetrate such a false flag event. As this was supported by the other Allied Governments including the greed Jude most people had this propaganda thrown down their throat.

I would suggest if you have some hard evidence, then present it; everyone is aware of your conundrum with missing people even though they probably never went missing. There is little point in your continuing to spew this up. If you have nothing else to add, then there is always the gulag there where you can talk to fwuffy.
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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Smallhausen » Fri May 17, 2019 5:18 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:09 am

Collusion between accused and victim, where they are enemies and from different countries, is highly unlikely.
Quite easy when it is orchestrated by the NKVD.
It is compelling corroborative evidence that the Nazis who ran the camps agree wit the prisoners forced to work in the camps, that there was gassing and then to try and hide how many had been killed and by what means, the bodies were exhumed and cremated and the gas chambers demolished and buried.
Eye witness evidence is now off the table. Far to unreliable.
What the witnesses describe happened to the bodies and the camps is corroborated by the physical evidence left behind at those camps.
That physical evidence has not been produced. I will repeat that eye witness testimony is off the table. Please produce hard empirical evidence not anecdotes.
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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Smallhausen » Fri May 17, 2019 5:21 am

Turnagain wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:13 am
Huntinger, you're not going to get anything out of Nessie but his lies and his mantra. Debate isn't possible.
We all realize this thank you Turnagain. Immediately without giving anything new he has spewed up what he has said a thousand times before on countless other threads. He has been told that eye witness testimony is off the table (he won't listen). He has been asked not to bring up "where they went again". He will continue to do this again and again, so wait and see. It is indeed a mantra.
however
He may do research and thrill us all.
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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Nessie » Wed May 22, 2019 9:44 am

Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:34 am
You have jack squat, Nessie. Wiernik is a fraud and a charlatan. He witnessed nothing and his "testimony" is a tissue of lies. Your "evidence" amounts to nothing but your speculations. Sell your mindless dreck down the street.
Wiernik is corroborated by other witnesses, including people from Germany and Ukraine who were running the camp. His claim of a brick and tiled gas chamber is corroborated by findings at the camp. His claim about buried cremated remains are also corroborated.
No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
Wiernik is evidence of gassing. You have no witness to anything else other than gassing happening inside the brick and tiled buildings that were built inside the camp.

It is you who has no evidence, not me.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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