'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

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been-there
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'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by been-there » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:04 am

In view of it being time for all good sheeple to be reminded, to accept uncritically and unintelligently, and to be reindoctrinated again with the exaggerations, the demonisations, and the mythological aspects of the genuine persecution of Jewry in Europe during WW2, here is an article with one story of a personal travesty of justice. It is the case of the victor's vengeance and lynching of a young 21 year old women, Irma Grese.
You will notice that she met her lynching bravely and with great personal dignity, according to the testimony of her lyncher/hangman. That she wrote to her parents that she went to her death with a "clear conscience", implying that she knew the testimonies against her were false and exaggerated. And you will notice that though serving at Auscwitz she is yet another person who claimed up to her death that she never saw a gas chamber, but remarked that she heard about them from prisoners. Other SS staff also knew nothing about them save what the prisoners rumoured. There is also the personal testimony of an inmate detailing her personal kindness to her.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by rollo the ganger » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:10 pm

Prior to the Nazi bogeyman of Jewish persecution it was the Russian, Polish and Ukrainian persecutions. The stories of woe that reached America had the purpose of circumventing the immigration quotas for Jews so they could pour into the "land of milk and honey" without restriction by claiming "persecution!", "pogroms", "extermination!", "GENOCIDE!". When a task force under Henry Morgenthau went to Poland to investigate the claims of Polish persecution nothing but rumors were discovered. Quite an industry developed for those who had an interest in dumping as many people as possible on America's shores because for each person shipped there was a fee paid to the "travel agent" who arranged their shipment on the Ocean Liners of the time. How many MILLIONS of Jews who immigrated to America from Eastern Europe and German legally and illegally prior to, during, and after the war will never be known.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Bernard » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:28 pm

been-there, I always wonder if you are trying to choose topics that will get you into deep trouble once evidence is presented. The case against Grese is open and shut. Do you really buy k0nsl's blather about Grese only knowing about gas chambers from prisoners, and having never asked her superiors about the fate of those selected to be taken away. In any case, she testified that she knew that prisoners would be gassed and she selected them anyways. Nice girl. Here's some Grese trial testimony
--
Ilona Stein's deposition reads, in part (p. 747):

2. Whilst I was at Birkenau an S.S. woman named Irma Grese was responsible for many beatings, one murder and sending people to the gas chamber. I identify No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2 as Irma Grese. What I speak of I speak of to my own knowledge.

3. In July, 1944, I was working in the kitchen at Birkenau when I saw a woman, whose daughter was in an ajoining camp, go to the dividing wire in order to speak to her daughter. Grese, who was passing on a bicycle, immediately got off, took off her leather belt and beat the woman with it. She also beat her on the face and head with her fists, and when the woman fell to the ground she trampled on her. The woman's face became swollen and blue. A friend of the woman's daughter took her away and the woman was in the hospital for three weeks suffering from the effects of the beating. I saw everything myself that Grese did to this victim.

4. Whilst at Birkenau I have seen Grese making selections with Dr. Mengele of people to be sent to the gas chamber. On these parades Grese herself chose the people to be killed in this way. In one selection about August, 1944, there were between 2000 and 3000 selected. At this selection Grese and Mengele were responsible for selecting those for the gas chamber. People chosen would sometimes sneak away from the line and hide themselves under their beds. Grese would go and find them, beat them until they collapsed and then drag them back into line again. I have seen everything I describe. It was general knowledge in this camp that persons selected in this way went to the gas chamber.

5. Sometime in August or September 1944, at one of these selection parades, one Hungarian woman who had been selected tried to escape from the line and join her daughter in another line which was for those not chosen. Grese noticed this and ordered one of the S.S. guards to shoot the woman, which he did. I did not hear the order, but saw Grese speak to the guard and he was shot at once. In the company of some nurses from the hospital I took the dead body to the mortuary.

We again return to Irma Grese, under prosecution questioning by Col. Backhouse (p. 256):

You affected heavy top-boots and you liked to walk around with a revolver strapped on your waist and a whip in your had, did you not?
-- I did not like it.
You thought it very clever to have a whip made in the factory and even when the Kommandant told you to stop using it you went on, did you not?
-- Yes.
What was this whip really made of?
-- Cellophane paper plaited like a pigtail. It was translucent like white glass.
The type of whip you would use for a horse?
-- Yes.
Then most of these prisoners who said they saw you carrying a riding whip were not far wrong, were they?
-- No, they were not wrong.
Did the other Aufseherinnen have these whips made too?
-- No.
It was just your bright idea?
-- Yes.
In Lager "C" you used to carry a walking-stick, too, and sometimes you beat people with the whip and sometimes with the stick?
-- Yes.
Were you allowed to beat people?
-- No.
So it was not a question of having orders from your superiors to do it. You did this against orders, did you?
-- Yes.
Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations?
-- I do not know.
Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners?
-- Yes.
Did you sometimes get orders to do so?
-- No.
Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to beat prisoners?
-- Yes.
Had you the right to give such authorization?
-- No.
So Grese admitted that she went beyond her orders and aggressively punished prisoners of her own volition. k0nsl didn't tell you that did he been-there. Is this another thread where you will dodge, whine about ad hominem and abandon?

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:55 pm

been-there wrote:That she wrote to her parents that she went to her death with a "clear conscience", implying that she knew the testimonies against her were false and exaggerated.
Not so. She may have believed that Jews and others incarcerated in the camp system were a threat to Germany and thus deserving of the treatment accorded them and at least some of which she was accused.
been-there wrote:And you will notice that though serving at Auscwitz she is yet another person who claimed up to her death that she never saw a gas chamber, but remarked that she heard about them from prisoners.
So what? Do you know where she worked and slept in the camp and its proximity to the gas chambers? Do you know what rules surrounded access to the gas chambers? Do you know what the assignments of an Aufseherin involved and whether these duties involved access to the gas chambers? If not, what are you going on about? If so, why are you not mentioning such relevant points?

Nor was Grese's testimony about selections as straightforward as revisionists maintain:
What were the prisoners supposed to do when the whistle went?

-- Fall in fives, and it was my duty to see that they did so. Dr. Mengele then came and made the selection. As I was responsible for the camp my duties were to know how many people were leaving and I had to count them, and I kept the figures in a strength book. After the selection took place they were sent into "B" Camp, and Dreshel telephoned and told me that they had gone to another camp in Germany for working purposes or for special treatment, which I thought was the gas chamber. I then put in my strength book either so many for transfer to Germany to another camp, or so many for S.B. (Sonder Behandlung). It was well known to the whole camp that S. B. meant the gas chamber.

Were you told anything about the gas chamber by your senior officers?

-- No, the prisoners told me about it.

You have been accused of choosing prisoners on these parades and sending them to the gas chamber. Have you done that?

-- No; I knew that prisoners were gassed.

Was it not quite simple to know whether or not the selection was for the gas chamber, because only Jews had to attend such selections?

-- I myself had only Jews in Camp "C."

Then they would all have to attend the selection for the gas chamber, would they not?

-- Yes.

As you were told to wait for the doctors you would know perfectly well what it was for?

-- No.

When these people were parading they were very often paraded naked and inspected like cattle to see whether they were fit to work or fit to die, were they not?

-- Not like cattle.

You were there keeping order, were you not, and if one ran away you brought her back and gave her a beating?

-- Yes.
So, "not like cattle" but like . . . what?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/bergen ... al-05.html

Assuming that some of the "myth" of Irma Grese is exaggeration, in part based on a psychological reflex that "excises" her type from our world and attributes Nazi criminality only to "deviants," still, given the grounds for her conviction, including her own testimony, I cannot imagine who, aside from Nazi sympathizers, deluded iconoclasts, disenchanted fantasists, and Jew baiters, would extol Ms Grese.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Bernard » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:49 pm

When these people were parading they were very often paraded naked and inspected like cattle to see whether they were fit to work or fit to die, were they not?

-- Not like cattle.
Note that she neither denied her participation nor the assertion that selections of naked people were to decide whether people were fit to work or die. Only weak protest against the metaphor, "like cattle."

My goodness, Stat Mack, what are these deniers thinking?
It was well known to the whole camp that Sonder behandlung meant the gas chambers
but now well known to deniers that all these Nazis who, at the time believed that they worked in an extermination factory, were simply mislead by their Jew prisoners. Funny how the Germans ran a camp where the only available information came from the prisoners. Stat Mack, are you ever amazed at denier credulity, or is it just me?

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:24 pm

It is not just you, Bernard.

Ms Grese was offended, offended I say, that she was accused of treating the unfit and work-capable who were lined up in selections like cattle. She did not! She treated them like unfit Jews ready for S.B. or to be taken into the camp for labor. And she rounded them up and beat them should they escape, like Jews who were to be selected for forced labor or death. Not like cattle. What do you take her for?

Yeah, her testimony on Sonderbehandlung more or less puts an exclamation point behind this: http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... =80#p28216. It appears to be another little item been-there in his glee overlooked, like Blumenthal's generalization of the lessons he takes from the Holocaust and Solzhenitsyn's account of the extermination work of the Einsatzgruppen.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by been-there » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:43 pm

...they had gone to another camp in Germany for working purposes or for special treatment, which I thought was the gas chamber. I then put in my strength book either so many for transfer to Germany to another camp, or so many for S.B. (Sonder Behandlung). It was well known to the whole camp that S. B. meant the gas chamber.

Q. Were you told anything about the gas chamber by your senior officers?

Irma. "No, the prisoners told me about it."
So the whole camp knew something though no-one ever saw it. And they got the info from the prisoners, who if it was a top secret couldn't have known.
C'mon. Not even Governor Hans Frank KNEW about it.
And when Cavendish-Bentinck the British head of Psychological Warfare Cavendish-Bentinck got news from the Polish resistance of gas chambers he recognised the report as an echo of his own propaganda. Great evidence. :roll:
What else have we got. Is that it. Testimonials are not enough. Especially when they can be proven to be flawed, false, self-contradictory, include physically impossiblities, etc., etc.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:05 pm

been-there wrote:So the whole camp knew something though no-one ever saw it.
Who says "no-one ever saw it"? Whatever you mean. No one witnessed the gassings? Is that what you're claiming?
been-there wrote:And they got the info from the prisoners, who if it was a top secret couldn't have known.
According to the accused, a die-hard on the stand for her life.
been-there wrote:C'mon. Not even Governor Hans Frank KNEW about it.
According to the accused, on the stand for his life.
been-there wrote:What else have we got. Is that it. Testimonials are not enough. Especially when they can be proven to be flawed, false, self-contradictory, include physically impossiblities, etc., etc.
Physical impossibilities? In what I quoted?

I see that once again you've decided not to answer direct questions I asked you. This is a pattern, you know.

But, yes, let's do an Auschwitz thread. We can see that you are running from your deification of this criminal - and from your argument that she was victim of a travesty of justice - by trying to change the subject. So, fine, you've lost yet another one, yes, let's change it and open a thread on Auschwitz.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Balsamo » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:13 pm

Testimonials are not enough says Been-There while opening a discussion based on one!

PS: Statmec,please not another topic on Auschwitz...we had Bob and Roberto for that... :oops:

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:20 pm

Balsamo wrote:Testimonials are not enough says Been-There while opening a discussion based on one!

PS: Statmec,please not another topic on Auschwitz...we had Bob and Roberto for that... :oops:
Fair enough . . . and yet, here is been-there saying that there is no good evidence for what went on there . . . and even implying that no one saw the gas chambers . . . what are we to do? LOL.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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