Bergs bogus challenges?

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 2238
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:43 am
Location: USA, West of the Pecos
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Scott » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:09 am

Nessie wrote:
Scott wrote: Nessie, I don't think it is "without corroboration."

I've been looking at the medical and forensic-medical literature and ordering things from Inter-Library Loan now for over ten years, and most of the stuff Mr. Berg has already used on his website so I know that he has seen it too. Plus, even before I met him his papers discussed these levels of COHb, going back thirty years now. This is not new stuff.

The medical literature tends not to want to be dogmatic about it so that no medical or other intervention for patients or potential patients is precluded, but any possible exceptions do not make the rule.

The "rule" is that potentially lethal levels of COHb (carboxlyhemoglobin) make the blood a bright cherry-red color.

Does anybody with any actual medical training here disagree with what I have said?

:)
Sorry, but your anecdotes and appeal to authority do not cut it. Plus you are shifting the goal posts as the issue is not does the body go cherry red with CO poisoning? The answer to that is yes, eventually. The issue is how long does that take and how quickly were the bodies disposed of?
You've been shown the cool, cool water. It is up to you to drink it.

:lol:

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 8516
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by been-there » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:51 am

DasPrussian wrote:Its already been ascertained that Gerstein told independent witnesses about the gassings. in 1942 I believe. That's enough evidence thankyou very much... Too many questions I'm afraid.
Out of all your nonsense, I will reply to this one, as it demonstrates again the disconnect from the actual reality that pervades — as far as I can see — much of the 'true-believer' head-in-the-sand avoidance.
It has NOT been ascertained. Read this thread, especially this post
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 26797
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Berg's challenges demonstrate scientifically the shoah f

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:59 pm

been-there wrote:.....I think this is nonsense and further evidence of your cognitive dissonance.
Mr. Fritz Berg has produced evidence: photographic evidence of cherry red colouring occurring in still living victims of CO poisoning.
Please link to that evidence.
been-there wrote: So this is proof of when it occurs and also exposes the deceit/self-delusion in your question: "the issue is how long does it take to appear". Answer: it starts immediately upon internal exposure to the gas.
Please link to evidence of that claim.
been-there wrote:This also refutes your excuse of there being white areas of bodies. So what if some parts of corpses were 'blanched'? Some parts of some of the bodies would still also be the very distinctive and surprising cherry red colour. And yet none of the 'Jewish' self-claimed eye witnesses who claimed to have disposed of many hundreds of thousands of gassed corpses, noticed it or included that in their supposed accurate, eye-witness testimony.
All these obfuscations avoid the obvious fact that out of the alleged many hundreds of thousands of people supposedly poisoned to death using Carbon monoxide gas, none of them were noticed to have displayed on ANY visible part of their bodies this highly visible and peculiar colourisation. On the contrary, alleged eye-witnesses claimed the bodies displayed blue or yellow discolourisation, which is demonstrably FALSE for CO gas victims.
Is any of this getting through yet?
Is the evidence, that I have posted links to of

1 - nowhere describing turning red as a symptom of CO poisoning in those still alive. That casts doubt on your and other's claim is an obvious sign.

2 - the time delay of lividity appearing meaning bodies can have be disposed of before the cherry red become obvious.

3 - the effect of moving a body and putting pressure on it has on lividity appearing, which again can account for it not being obvious.

4 - there are witnesses to the redness, Berg on his site admits to one and earlier there was mention of a chemist who saw bodies unloaded from a gas van.

getting through to you yet? You claim to be driven by science and evidence, yet you show a distinct lack of evidence for your claims and desire to ignore the science which does not fit your chosen narrative.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 8516
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: Berg's challenges demonstrate scientifically the shoah f

Post by been-there » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:27 pm

Nessie wrote:
been-there wrote:Mr. Fritz Berg has produced evidence: photographic evidence of cherry red colouring occurring in still living victims of CO poisoning.
Please link to that evidence.
been-there wrote: So this is proof of when it occurs and also exposes the deceit/self-delusion in your question: "the issue is how long does it take to appear". Answer: it starts immediately upon internal exposure to the gas.
Please link to evidence of that claim.
been-there wrote:This also refutes your excuse of there being white areas of bodies. So what if some parts of corpses were 'blanched'? Some parts of some of the bodies would still also be the very distinctive and surprising cherry red colour. And yet none of the 'Jewish' self-claimed eye witnesses who claimed to have disposed of many hundreds of thousands of gassed corpses, noticed it or included that in their supposed accurate, eye-witness testimony.
All these obfuscations avoid the obvious fact that out of the alleged many hundreds of thousands of people supposedly poisoned to death using Carbon monoxide gas, none of them were noticed to have displayed on ANY visible part of their bodies this highly visible and peculiar colourisation. On the contrary, alleged eye-witnesses claimed the bodies displayed blue or yellow discolourisation, which is demonstrably FALSE for CO gas victims.
Is any of this getting through yet?
...You claim to be driven by science and evidence, yet you show a distinct lack of evidence for your claims and desire to ignore the science which does not fit your chosen narrative.
Ho-hum. :roll:
Why exactly are you here, Nessie?
You make false, unsubstantiated accusations, don't seem to be interested in understanding anything, and yet keep posting flawed and ill-informed posts with challenges/questions that demonstrate a LACK of basic knowledge of the topic. That would be OK if you showed a willingness to improve your understanding. But you seem to be intent only on attacking any post any way you can of those you have decided are what you call "deniers".

Haven't you read this?
Blue women on the beach – and the false toxicity of CO2 in diesel exhaust by Friedrich Paul Berg

If you are really and genuinely interested in understanding this aspect of the revisionist argument, shouldn't you be familiar with this?

Mr Berg has done all the research for you. Yet you keep asking for the evidence which he has already provided and which has previously been referenced for you before here very patiently by others.
Is this some sort of 'disrupt revisionist discussion' exercise?
Image
Image

This patient is still alive and he displays a marked reddish coloring to his face. That ain't just a sunburn. The red coloring begins before death--and NOT immediately after death, or any time later.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

Turnagain
Posts: 5956
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:54 pm

Again you do nothing but repeat your spurious bullshit. There has been two photos posted of ante mortem discoloration in just the last few pages. Wiernik stated that the new 7x7 meter gas chambers could hold as many as 1,200 people and there were 10 chambers in the new building that he helped build. Now you claim that as many as 12,000 cadavers could be removed from the gas chambers and cremated within a time span of 20 minutes and the onset of livor mortis. Tell us just exactly how that was done, Nessie. Or are you, as usual, going to claim an impossibility and then defend it by claiming that anyone who doesn't believe your Cadillac spaceship story is arguing a "fallacy of incredulity." That's like the story of the Nazi enclave beneath the ice at the South Pole and anyone who doesn't believe that is "arguing from a fallacy of incredulity." You need some new weasel dodges.

User avatar
DasPrussian
Posts: 3257
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by DasPrussian » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:10 pm

been-there wrote:
DasPrussian wrote:Its already been ascertained that Gerstein told independent witnesses about the gassings. in 1942 I believe. That's enough evidence thankyou very much... Too many questions I'm afraid.
Out of all your nonsense, I will reply to this one, as it demonstrates again the disconnect from the actual reality that pervades — as far as I can see — much of the 'true-believer' head-in-the-sand avoidance.
It has NOT been ascertained. Read this thread, especially this post

Can you please explain why you regard my previous post as nonsense? Is it because you can't answer the awkward questions I asked?

As for the only point you have bothered to answer, re Gerstein, the link you sent went straight to your post which read ;

Separating exactly what he actually heard from Gerstein in 1942 with what he wrote three years later that he heard, was probably no longer clear even to himself, and so for us also is now impossible. I am myself inclined to believe the majority of it is reasonably accurate, but we will never know now.


So basically your reply is 'I don't know' - thanks for that.
All I want for Christmas is a Dukla Prague away kit

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 26797
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Berg's challenges demonstrate scientifically the shoah f

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:15 pm

been-there wrote: Ho-hum. :roll:
Why exactly are you here, Nessie?
You make false, unsubstantiated accusations, don't seem to be interested in understanding anything, and yet keep posting flawed and ill-informed posts with challenges/questions that demonstrate a LACK of basic knowledge of the topic. That would be OK if you showed a willingness to improve your understanding. But you seem to be intent only on attacking any post any way you can of those you have decided are what you call "deniers".
I see you cut out all the evidence I linked to that backs up my claims. Instead it is a series of ad hominems.
been-there wrote:Haven't you read this?
Blue women on the beach – and the false toxicity of CO2 in diesel exhaust by Friedrich Paul Berg

If you are really and genuinely interested in understanding this aspect of the revisionist argument, shouldn't you be familiar with this?

Mr Berg has done all the research for you. Yet you keep asking for the evidence which he has already provided and which has previously been referenced for you before here very patiently by others.
Is this some sort of 'disrupt revisionist discussion' exercise?
Berg is correct about diesel not being the engine type use.
been-there wrote:Image
Image

This patient is still alive and he displays a marked reddish coloring to his face. That ain't just a sunburn. The red coloring begins before death--and NOT immediately after death, or any time later.
Have you anything more than images and a claim from nazigassings. com? Any source that is anyway scientific?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 26797
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:18 pm

Turnagain wrote:Again you do nothing but repeat your spurious bullshit. There has been two photos posted of ante mortem discoloration in just the last few pages. Wiernik stated that the new 7x7 meter gas chambers could hold as many as 1,200 people and there were 10 chambers in the new building that he helped build. Now you claim that as many as 12,000 cadavers could be removed from the gas chambers and cremated within a time span of 20 minutes and the onset of livor mortis.
Please show where I made those alleged claims.

Turnagain wrote: Tell us just exactly how that was done, Nessie. Or are you, as usual, going to claim an impossibility and then defend it by claiming that anyone who doesn't believe your Cadillac spaceship story is arguing a "fallacy of incredulity." That's like the story of the Nazi enclave beneath the ice at the South Pole and anyone who doesn't believe that is "arguing from a fallacy of incredulity." You need some new weasel dodges.
You need to learn how to read and accurately report on what I have actually said.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
Posts: 5956
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:35 pm

Nessie wrote:
Turnagain wrote:Again you do nothing but repeat your spurious bullshit. There has been two photos posted of ante mortem discoloration in just the last few pages. Wiernik stated that the new 7x7 meter gas chambers could hold as many as 1,200 people and there were 10 chambers in the new building that he helped build. Now you claim that as many as 12,000 cadavers could be removed from the gas chambers and cremated within a time span of 20 minutes and the onset of livor mortis.
Please show where I made those alleged claims.
You made the assertion that the cadavers were removed from the gas chambers and were either cremated or buried in 20 minutes (or less) before the onset of livor mortis several times. You even posted an incorrect calculation of how many cadavers had to be moved per minute by the sonderkommandos in 20 minutes. I corrected it for you. You stated definitely that all cadavers could be moved in 20 minutes or less and according to the eyewitness Wiernik, that could be as many as 12,000.

Turnagain wrote: Tell us just exactly how that was done, Nessie. Or are you, as usual, going to claim an impossibility and then defend it by claiming that anyone who doesn't believe your Cadillac spaceship story is arguing a "fallacy of incredulity." That's like the story of the Nazi enclave beneath the ice at the South Pole and anyone who doesn't believe that is "arguing from a fallacy of incredulity." You need some new weasel dodges.
You need to learn how to read and accurately report on what I have actually said.
No, you need to keep better track of what you've written.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 26797
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 pm

Turnagain wrote:.....

You made the assertion that the cadavers were removed from the gas chambers and were either cremated or buried in 20 minutes (or less) before the onset of livor mortis several times. You even posted an incorrect calculation of how many cadavers had to be moved per minute by the sonderkommandos in 20 minutes. I corrected it for you. You stated definitely that all cadavers could be moved in 20 minutes or less and according to the eyewitness Wiernik, that could be as many as 12,000.

.......

No, you need to keep better track of what you've written.
Where did I make the above claims? Links please. Lets see some quotes instead of your dodgy recollections.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 10 guests