friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto's ignorance is truly stupendous. It would be foolish to try to contend with such stupidity coupled with such incoherence.
When "Revisionist" charlatans open up like this, it's a sure sign that they are losing confidence in their blather.
friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto has given up on the original issue of his thread (what he was "keeping in his drawer"), as his analysis there was exposed as silly.
Here we have one of those mendacious victory dances that characterize "Revisionist" charlatans. Actually the only reason why I no longer mention the original issue of this thread is FJ's having giving up arguing about it.
friedrichjansson wrote:(Though please do post those "thoughts" on your blog, Roberto, if you have any confidence in them.)
That's an idea.
friedrichjansson wrote:Now he simply changes the topic endlessly.
Actually, as our readers may have realized, FJ was the one who side-tracked the original topic of this discussion to the "issue" of corpse coloration in fatal carbon monoxide poisoning. And now he's talking about nothing else.
friedrichjansson wrote:I will respond only on those points I have already discussed in the thread.
Some of them. Others
FJ will conveniently ignore.
Roberto wrote:The problem with FJ's big-mouthed blather is that it ignores my point, which is that - as suggested by the three cases mentioned by Risser et al, and by their mentioning these cases in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate" - people suffering from such problems due to old age, and all the more so people suffering from "the horrendous state of the Jews’ circulatory and respiratory systems" documented in ghetto medical records, are likely to succumb to carbon monoxide poisoning with COHb concentrations below 30 % in their blood.
Roberto lies. Risser did not mention the three cases without red lividity in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate." He mentions the elderly in this connection, and mentions a decline of 0.16% in lethal COHb per year of age. As previously mentioned, this would not influence the redness of lividity unless the Jews were all hundreds of years old.
We note that my opponent turns to pathetically squealing "lie" just because I interpreted information contained in the very same paragraph that mentions "a compromised ability to oxygenate" as being related to phenomenon (emphasis added):
The older the victim, the lower the carboxyhemoglobin level, which decreased by 0.16% per living year (regression analysis: P < .0001), a finding which may be explained by the fact that many elderly people with coronary artery, heart, or lung disease already have a compromised ability to oxygenate. The range and mean of carboxyhemoglobin levels were 18 to 87 and 62 :t 12 (SD) % carboxyhemoglobin, respectively. There was a strong association between the carboxyhemoglobin level and the cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis (Wilcoxon 2-sample test: P < 0.01). 3 corpses with 18, 28 and 31% carboxyhemoglobin, respectively, showed no cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. In 98.4% (n = 179) of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths livor mortis was clearly cherry-pink.
The context of the highlighted paragraph suggests that the three "odd" cases were people whose ability to oxygenate was compromised to such an extent that they died with COHb levels below the red coloration threshold in their blood. Why else would these three cases have shown no red coloration, and why else would they be mentioned in the paragraph addressing the "compromised ability to oxygenate" issue?
friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto offers no evidence for his fantastic claims on lethal COHb levels.
Evidence that fatal CO poisoning can occur at the low COHb levels mentioned by Risser et al actually comes from Risser et al's article. This evidence suggests the possibility that the "horrendous state" of ghetto Jews' respiratory systems due to malnutrition, alone or together with anemia/hemodilution also induced by malnutrition, accounted for the absence of red livor mortis
in a great many of the people gassed at the AR camps. It is for FJ, as the one who claims that those gassed would necessarily have shown a prominent red discoloration that couldn't have escaped witness attention, to rule out this possibility.
2. A few desperate bits of nonsense from Roberto, in which he shows yet again his abysmal ignorance of CO poisoning
Roberto wrote:what do exhaust gas deaths in everyday life have in common with exhaust gas deaths in the AR camps' gas chambers, and what do they not? One difference is probably the longer time of exposure to CO in everyday life cases, which I presume are mostly suicides. Another difference is the oxygen available in the environment, which is probably higher in everyday life cases. Yet another difference is probably the absence of panic and stress in such cases, a situation unlike that observed in the gas chambers. These differences may have led to deaths from carbon monoxide poisoning having occurred in the gas chambers with a lower COHb concentration than is observed in everyday life exhaust deaths, even among comparatively healthy specimens and all the more so among specimens suffering from anaemia/hemodilution and/or a "horrendous state" of circulatory and respiratory systems.
There's no reason exhaust suicides would necessarily be of longer duration than exhaust homicides, and even if they were it wouldn't matter for COHb at death.
Are there any data from exhaust homicides in everyday life to compare duration and COHb content with suicides?
friedrichjansson wrote:If you're panicking and breathing faster in the gas chamber than in a suicide, than COHb will rise faster too; there's no reduction in COHb at death.
And also no rise, meaning that if death occurs at a lower COHb content due to panic and stress (besides a generally weakened physical condition), the COHb content will not rise any further.
Low oxygen does not lower COHb at death, as already mentioned
Ah, the goats. Interesting information from that series of experiments:
Most importantly, deaths of animals at elevated temperatures ["In some experiments body temperatures of subjects were raised to between 42.5 and 43.6º C (rectal)"] occurred at markedly decreased COHb levels, a result not seen with low oxygen plus carbon monoxide alone.
The goats in the last two experiments mentioned in the table had a COHb content of only 38% or 49%.
The gas chambers of places like Bełżec, packed full of human beings, must have been hot like saunas (especially in August 1942, the month to which Pfannenstiel's testimony refers, IIRC). Their temperature, and the effect of that temperature on the body temperature of already weakened and largely sick human beings, may thus have been a further factor hindering red livor mortis
friedrichjansson wrote:As this thread appears to be just a dump for some of Roberto's most feces-ridden arguments, I think I will not respond any further.
Feces are rather to be found in the noisy flatulence whereby FJ tries to cover up his retreat. I guess that's his way of telling us that he needs time for this exercise:
But even assuming you're right, the problem would still not be on my side. May I again suggest that you do this exercise: collect all eyewitness testimonies related to the AR camps wherein the aspect of the corpses is described. Consider the time after gassing that these descriptions refer to. And then try to demonstrate that these were times when confluent red livor mortis, where it occurred, would have been prominently visible to any casual observer. There aren't all that many witnesses to choose from, so this should be easy to manage. Good luck!