Now that Mr. Jansson is with us ...

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friedrichjansson
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Re: Now that Mr. Jansson is with us ...

Post by friedrichjansson » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:06 pm

Roberto wrote:Would that bluish tinge also be subtle if death occurred in an oxygen-starved environment?
Yes. You are welcome to search the scientific literature on CO deaths for descriptions of vivid blue coloration under any circumstances.
Roberto wrote:As to your claim that red discoloration does not wait until the formation of hypostasis (the settling of blood in the dependent parts of an organ or body), what does it look like before? Any pictures you can show us?
Patience. You'll see some references soon enough.
Roberto wrote:So far the information we have is that "When the victim is anaemic the color may be faint or even absent because insufficient haemoglobin is present to display the colour."
That may be all the information you have. And it is entirely consistent with what I said: anemic cases may fail to show the typical red lividity.

Just to throw out another reference, Simpson's forensic medicine states that
In the hypostatic areas of the dead body, the pink coloration is usually obvious, but exceptions may be found in the old or anaemic, in whom reduction in haemoglobin content reduces the intensity of the coloration.
"Exceptions may be found in" is very different from "all such are exceptions."
Roberto wrote: Well, here's what Risser et al say about "odd exceptions":
The older the victim, the lower the carboxyhemoglobin level, which decreased by 0.16% per living year (regression analysis: P < .0001), a finding which may be explained by the fact that many elderly people with coronary artery, heart, or lung disease already have a compromised ability to oxygenate. The range and mean of carboxyhemoglobin levels were 18 to 87 and 62 :t 12 (SD) % carboxyhemoglobin, respectively. There was a strong association between the carboxyhemoglobin level and the cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis (Wilcoxon 2-sample test: P < 0.01).. 3 corpses with 18, 28 and 31% carboxyhemoglobin, respectively, showed no cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. In 98.4% (n = 179) of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths livor mortis was clearly cherry-pink.
What this suggests, in my understanding, is that people who have a "compromised ability to oxygenate" are likely to succumb to COHb concentrations below the color threshold of 30 %. Once they have stopped breathing the COHb concentration will increase no further, so the COHb ~70% that you claim to be "typical" in exhaust gas deaths will never be reached. Now, what with people whose respiratory system has been depleted by prolonged malnutrition? Wouldn't they - assuming they didn't die of suffocation before - die from CO with a much lower concentration of COHb in their blood?
Roberto has made a fool of himself again. Let's say that 70% is the average COHb in exhaust deaths for 20 year olds (this is probably too low, but never mind). Risser says that average lethal COHb drops by 0.16% per year of age. This would imply that at 70 years of age average COHb in exhaust deaths is 62%, which is not under 30%. Average COHb in exhaust deaths would only drop to 30% at age 270. Were all the Jews killed with CO really that old? Maybe they really weren't Jews, and in fact the Germans repetitively euthanized the Cumaean Sibyl. That would explain the very small weight Roberto assumes, at least. But such a Sibyl holocaust would be an act of generosity:
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Σιβυλλα τι θελεις; respondebat illa: απο θανειν θελω."

Roberto
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Re: Now that Mr. Jansson is with us ...

Post by Roberto » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:39 am

friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:Would that bluish tinge also be subtle if death occurred in an oxygen-starved environment?
Yes. You are welcome to search the scientific literature on CO deaths for descriptions of vivid blue coloration under any circumstances.
I may do that, but as I said before:
What Pfannenstiel and Schluch described was a subtle bluish discoloration on some of the victims' faces, anyway.


---
friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:As to your claim that red discoloration does not wait until the formation of hypostasis (the settling of blood in the dependent parts of an organ or body), what does it look like before? Any pictures you can show us?
Patience. You'll see some references soon enough.
Hopefully with pictures.
friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:So far the information we have is that "When the victim is anaemic the color may be faint or even absent because insufficient haemoglobin is present to display the colour."
That may be all the information you have. And it is entirely consistent with what I said: anemic cases may fail to show the typical red lividity.

Just to throw out another reference, Simpson's forensic medicine states that
In the hypostatic areas of the dead body, the pink coloration is usually obvious, but exceptions may be found in the old or anaemic, in whom reduction in haemoglobin content reduces the intensity of the coloration.
"Exceptions may be found in" is very different from "all such are exceptions."
Both sources state that the source of the phenomenon is reduction in haemoglobin, which suggests that the degree to which "exceptions" are found depends on the degree of reduction in haemoglobin due to anaemia. About the degree of haemoglobin reduction among ghetto Jews we have the following information (emphases added):
Kues dishonestly represents the work of the Warsaw physicians. In his article, Kues cites a chart put together as a review of autopsy results of strictly hunger disease deaths. Kues includes the statistic that anaemia was found in only 5.5% of the autopsy cases as “an indication that even among fatal cases of malnutrition, anaemia was far from always present.” However, Kues leaves out an important statement by the physicians related to the lack of anaemia found in the autopsies:

We must emphasize that only 5.5% of the cases showed advanced anaemia. Fairly large amounts of hemosiderin are found in livers and spleens, and it is certain that in hunger disease RBCs are being destroyed, but on the other hand as a result of the diminished size of the organs and tissues, the amount of blood left is enough to prevent the symptoms of advanced anaemia.[250]

Thus, the anaemia that Kues refers to is advanced anaemia, which was less present than more mild forms. Kues must realize this, for he quotes reports from the physicians examining patients of hunger disease openly stating that “anaemia was prevalent.”
The points that ghetto residents suffered from anaemia and hemodilution are very noteworthy, as they greatly undermine any expectation that Aktion Reinhard victims should have exhibited a cherry-red lividity.
Would the anaemia/hemodilution here described be such as to reduce haemoglobin to such an extent that the pink-red discoloration wouldn't show? We don't know. But it's for FJ to demonstrate that it wouldn't.
friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote: Well, here's what Risser et al say about "odd exceptions":
The older the victim, the lower the carboxyhemoglobin level, which decreased by 0.16% per living year (regression analysis: P < .0001), a finding which may be explained by the fact that many elderly people with coronary artery, heart, or lung disease already have a compromised ability to oxygenate. The range and mean of carboxyhemoglobin levels were 18 to 87 and 62 :t 12 (SD) % carboxyhemoglobin, respectively. There was a strong association between the carboxyhemoglobin level and the cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis (Wilcoxon 2-sample test: P < 0.01).. 3 corpses with 18, 28 and 31% carboxyhemoglobin, respectively, showed no cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. In 98.4% (n = 179) of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths livor mortis was clearly cherry-pink.
What this suggests, in my understanding, is that people who have a "compromised ability to oxygenate" are likely to succumb to COHb concentrations below the color threshold of 30 %. Once they have stopped breathing the COHb concentration will increase no further, so the COHb ~70% that you claim to be "typical" in exhaust gas deaths will never be reached. Now, what with people whose respiratory system has been depleted by prolonged malnutrition? Wouldn't they - assuming they didn't die of suffocation before - die from CO with a much lower concentration of COHb in their blood?
Roberto has made a fool of himself again. Let's say that 70% is the average COHb in exhaust deaths for 20 year olds (this is probably too low, but never mind). Risser says that average lethal COHb drops by 0.16% per year of age. This would imply that at 70 years of age average COHb in exhaust deaths is 62%, which is not under 30%. Average COHb in exhaust deaths would only drop to 30% at age 270. Were all the Jews killed with CO really that old? Maybe they really weren't Jews, and in fact the Germans repetitively euthanized the Cumaean Sibyl. That would explain the very small weight Roberto assumes, at least. But such a Sibyl holocaust would be an act of generosity:
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Σιβυλλα τι θελεις; respondebat illa: απο θανειν θελω."
The problem with FJ's big-mouthed blather is that it ignores my point, which is that - as suggested by the three cases mentioned by Risser et al, and by their mentioning these cases in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate" - people suffering from such problems due to old age, and all the more so people suffering from "the horrendous state of the Jews’ circulatory and respiratory systems" documented in ghetto medical records, are likely to succumb to carbon monoxide poisoning with COHb concentrations below 30 % in their blood.

It should also be considered in this context that anemia/hemodilution and a "horrendous state" of circulatory and respiratory systems, both due to malnutrition, would cumulatively and not alternatively affect the likeliness of red livor mortis in many of those victims from Polish ghettos who didn't simply suffocate in the death panic that followed introduction of the exhaust in the tightly-packed gas chambers.

As to the 70 % COHb content in exhaust gas deaths, FJ presented the example of the lady who had snuffed gasoline exhaust from an oxygen mask plus the following references:
Forensic Pathology for Police, Death Investigators, Attorneys, and Forensic Scientists / Joseph Prahlow, 2010

p. 422
In exhaust deaths, the CO levels are usually well over 50%, frequently within the 70s.
36) Vincent DeMaio, Dominick DeMaio. Forensic Pathology, 2nd ed. 2001

p. 377
in the authors’ experience, in individuals whose deaths are caused by inhalation of automobile exhaust, the average carbon monoxide level is 79%, with 82% of cases having levels of 70% or greater.
37) Knight's Forensic Pathology, 3rd edition / Pekka Saukko, Bernard Knight, 2004

p. 322
Many fatalities [caused by CO in fires] will display 50-60 per cent saturation, though levels in general are less than in pure carbon monoxide poisoning, such as car exhaust suicides or industrial exposure, where concentrations of up to 80 per cent may occur.
All very nice, but what do exhaust gas deaths in everyday life have in common with exhaust gas deaths in the AR camps' gas chambers, and what do they not? One difference is probably the longer time of exposure to CO in everyday life cases, which I presume are mostly suicides. Another difference is the oxygen available in the environment, which is probably higher in everyday life cases. Yet another difference is probably the absence of panic and stress in such cases, a situation unlike that observed in the gas chambers. These differences may have led to deaths from carbon monoxide poisoning having occurred in the gas chambers with a lower COHb concentration than is observed in everyday life exhaust deaths, even among comparatively healthy specimens and all the more so among specimens suffering from anaemia/hemodilution and/or a "horrendous state" of circulatory and respiratory systems.

Now, instead of dishing up straw-men decorated with Latin and Greek phrases, FJ should do the exercise suggested in the last paragraph of my previous post:
But even assuming you're right, the problem would still not be on my side. May I again suggest that you do this exercise: collect all eyewitness testimonies related to the AR camps wherein the aspect of the corpses is described. Consider the time after gassing that these descriptions refer to. And then try to demonstrate that these were times when confluent red livor mortis, where it occurred, would have been prominently visible to any casual observer. There aren't all that many witnesses to choose from, so this should be easy to manage. Good luck!
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
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Re: Now that Mr. Jansson is with us ...

Post by friedrichjansson » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:09 am

Roberto's ignorance is truly stupendous. It would be foolish to try to contend with such stupidity coupled with such incoherence. Roberto has given up on the original issue of his thread (what he was "keeping in his drawer"), as his analysis there was exposed as silly. (Though please do post those "thoughts" on your blog, Roberto, if you have any confidence in them.) Now he simply changes the topic endlessly. I will respond only on those points I have already discussed in the thread.

1. Risser
Roberto wrote:The problem with FJ's big-mouthed blather is that it ignores my point, which is that - as suggested by the three cases mentioned by Risser et al, and by their mentioning these cases in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate" - people suffering from such problems due to old age, and all the more so people suffering from "the horrendous state of the Jews’ circulatory and respiratory systems" documented in ghetto medical records, are likely to succumb to carbon monoxide poisoning with COHb concentrations below 30 % in their blood.
Roberto lies. Risser did not mention the three cases without red lividity in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate." He mentions the elderly in this connection, and mentions a decline of 0.16% in lethal COHb per year of age. As previously mentioned, this would not influence the redness of lividity unless the Jews were all hundreds of years old. Roberto offers no evidence for his fantastic claims on lethal COHb levels.

2. A few desperate bits of nonsense from Roberto, in which he shows yet again his abysmal ignorance of CO poisoning
Roberto wrote:what do exhaust gas deaths in everyday life have in common with exhaust gas deaths in the AR camps' gas chambers, and what do they not? One difference is probably the longer time of exposure to CO in everyday life cases, which I presume are mostly suicides. Another difference is the oxygen available in the environment, which is probably higher in everyday life cases. Yet another difference is probably the absence of panic and stress in such cases, a situation unlike that observed in the gas chambers. These differences may have led to deaths from carbon monoxide poisoning having occurred in the gas chambers with a lower COHb concentration than is observed in everyday life exhaust deaths, even among comparatively healthy specimens and all the more so among specimens suffering from anaemia/hemodilution and/or a "horrendous state" of circulatory and respiratory systems.
There's no reason exhaust suicides would necessarily be of longer duration than exhaust homicides, and even if they were it wouldn't matter for COHb at death. If you're panicking and breathing faster in the gas chamber than in a suicide, than COHb will rise faster too; there's no reduction in COHb at death.

Low oxygen does not lower COHb at death, as already mentioned.

As this thread appears to be just a dump for some of Roberto's most feces-ridden arguments, I think I will not respond any further.

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Re: Now that Mr. Jansson is with us ...

Post by Roberto » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:18 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto's ignorance is truly stupendous. It would be foolish to try to contend with such stupidity coupled with such incoherence.
When "Revisionist" charlatans open up like this, it's a sure sign that they are losing confidence in their blather.
friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto has given up on the original issue of his thread (what he was "keeping in his drawer"), as his analysis there was exposed as silly.
Here we have one of those mendacious victory dances that characterize "Revisionist" charlatans. Actually the only reason why I no longer mention the original issue of this thread is FJ's having giving up arguing about it.
friedrichjansson wrote:(Though please do post those "thoughts" on your blog, Roberto, if you have any confidence in them.)
That's an idea.
friedrichjansson wrote:Now he simply changes the topic endlessly.
Actually, as our readers may have realized, FJ was the one who side-tracked the original topic of this discussion to the "issue" of corpse coloration in fatal carbon monoxide poisoning. And now he's talking about nothing else.
friedrichjansson wrote:I will respond only on those points I have already discussed in the thread.
Some of them. Others FJ will conveniently ignore.
friedrichjansson wrote:1. Risser
Roberto wrote:The problem with FJ's big-mouthed blather is that it ignores my point, which is that - as suggested by the three cases mentioned by Risser et al, and by their mentioning these cases in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate" - people suffering from such problems due to old age, and all the more so people suffering from "the horrendous state of the Jews’ circulatory and respiratory systems" documented in ghetto medical records, are likely to succumb to carbon monoxide poisoning with COHb concentrations below 30 % in their blood.
Roberto lies. Risser did not mention the three cases without red lividity in connection with "a compromised ability to oxygenate." He mentions the elderly in this connection, and mentions a decline of 0.16% in lethal COHb per year of age. As previously mentioned, this would not influence the redness of lividity unless the Jews were all hundreds of years old.
We note that my opponent turns to pathetically squealing "lie" just because I interpreted information contained in the very same paragraph that mentions "a compromised ability to oxygenate" as being related to phenomenon (emphasis added):
The older the victim, the lower the carboxyhemoglobin level, which decreased by 0.16% per living year (regression analysis: P < .0001), a finding which may be explained by the fact that many elderly people with coronary artery, heart, or lung disease already have a compromised ability to oxygenate. The range and mean of carboxyhemoglobin levels were 18 to 87 and 62 :t 12 (SD) % carboxyhemoglobin, respectively. There was a strong association between the carboxyhemoglobin level and the cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis (Wilcoxon 2-sample test: P < 0.01). 3 corpses with 18, 28 and 31% carboxyhemoglobin, respectively, showed no cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. In 98.4% (n = 179) of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths livor mortis was clearly cherry-pink.
The context of the highlighted paragraph suggests that the three "odd" cases were people whose ability to oxygenate was compromised to such an extent that they died with COHb levels below the red coloration threshold in their blood. Why else would these three cases have shown no red coloration, and why else would they be mentioned in the paragraph addressing the "compromised ability to oxygenate" issue?
friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto offers no evidence for his fantastic claims on lethal COHb levels.
Evidence that fatal CO poisoning can occur at the low COHb levels mentioned by Risser et al actually comes from Risser et al's article. This evidence suggests the possibility that the "horrendous state" of ghetto Jews' respiratory systems due to malnutrition, alone or together with anemia/hemodilution also induced by malnutrition, accounted for the absence of red livor mortis in a great many of the people gassed at the AR camps. It is for FJ, as the one who claims that those gassed would necessarily have shown a prominent red discoloration that couldn't have escaped witness attention, to rule out this possibility.
friedrichjansson wrote:2. A few desperate bits of nonsense from Roberto, in which he shows yet again his abysmal ignorance of CO poisoning
Roberto wrote:what do exhaust gas deaths in everyday life have in common with exhaust gas deaths in the AR camps' gas chambers, and what do they not? One difference is probably the longer time of exposure to CO in everyday life cases, which I presume are mostly suicides. Another difference is the oxygen available in the environment, which is probably higher in everyday life cases. Yet another difference is probably the absence of panic and stress in such cases, a situation unlike that observed in the gas chambers. These differences may have led to deaths from carbon monoxide poisoning having occurred in the gas chambers with a lower COHb concentration than is observed in everyday life exhaust deaths, even among comparatively healthy specimens and all the more so among specimens suffering from anaemia/hemodilution and/or a "horrendous state" of circulatory and respiratory systems.
There's no reason exhaust suicides would necessarily be of longer duration than exhaust homicides, and even if they were it wouldn't matter for COHb at death.
Are there any data from exhaust homicides in everyday life to compare duration and COHb content with suicides?
friedrichjansson wrote:If you're panicking and breathing faster in the gas chamber than in a suicide, than COHb will rise faster too; there's no reduction in COHb at death.
And also no rise, meaning that if death occurs at a lower COHb content due to panic and stress (besides a generally weakened physical condition), the COHb content will not rise any further.
friedrichjansson wrote:Low oxygen does not lower COHb at death, as already mentioned.
Ah, the goats. Interesting information from that series of experiments:
Most importantly, deaths of animals at elevated temperatures ["In some experiments body temperatures of subjects were raised to between 42.5 and 43.6º C (rectal)"] occurred at markedly decreased COHb levels, a result not seen with low oxygen plus carbon monoxide alone.
The goats in the last two experiments mentioned in the table had a COHb content of only 38% or 49%.

The gas chambers of places like Bełżec, packed full of human beings, must have been hot like saunas (especially in August 1942, the month to which Pfannenstiel's testimony refers, IIRC). Their temperature, and the effect of that temperature on the body temperature of already weakened and largely sick human beings, may thus have been a further factor hindering red livor mortis.
friedrichjansson wrote:As this thread appears to be just a dump for some of Roberto's most feces-ridden arguments, I think I will not respond any further.
Feces are rather to be found in the noisy flatulence whereby FJ tries to cover up his retreat. I guess that's his way of telling us that he needs time for this exercise:
But even assuming you're right, the problem would still not be on my side. May I again suggest that you do this exercise: collect all eyewitness testimonies related to the AR camps wherein the aspect of the corpses is described. Consider the time after gassing that these descriptions refer to. And then try to demonstrate that these were times when confluent red livor mortis, where it occurred, would have been prominently visible to any casual observer. There aren't all that many witnesses to choose from, so this should be easy to manage. Good luck!
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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