Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

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Charles Traynor
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Charles Traynor »

Bobcat wrote: 07 Jul 2021, 21:03
Charles Traynor wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 18:06
been-there wrote: 05 Jul 2021, 20:40 I have closed the topic (debate?).
Good call. The debate started badly and degenerated from bad to worse from there on in.
The debate degenerated because Nessie was ignoring this reality:
Nessie:
I will accept that, if you accept that rule also applies to you
Bobcat:
OK, But If the rule applies to both of us, then it will be the ONLY additional rule added to these rules:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2492
viewtopic.php?p=192210#p192210
Which Been-there allowed. And he also allowed Nessie to post this:
Unless you can link to and quote me clearly admitting that there is no archaeological proof of mass graves at TII, then it is proved that is a lie.
Which was a gross misinterpretation of the clarifying statement attached to the thread title.

Then Nessie was allowed to submit a post dodging this question:
The MAXIMUM number of discernable / measurable extant mass graves of Treblinka II that you can conclusively prove actually exist, and in which legitimate archaeologists have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - conclusively proven to currently contain the remains of at least 2 people; is no less than __?__.
which was filled with ad hominems and more inaccuracies than I can count. And in which, Nessie declared himself the winner and then ran away - which we all knew he would do.
I fully support been-there's handling of this farce debate. I consider both Nessie and you to have been bad actors in this instance.



Bobcat wrote: 07 Jul 2021, 21:03
...in which, Nessie declared himself the winner and then ran away - which we all knew he would do.

Nessie was always going to run. I was looking forward to watching him having to publicly humiliate himself by inventing excuses to abandon the debate as it progressed. You are more than capable of trashing that vile creature in open debate but instead you let him off the hook.

:roll:
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Bobcat »

Charles Traynor:
Nessie was always going to run... you let him off the hook.
You don't know the extent of what I wrote that was not allowed to be posted. Even my last post disappeared after I attempted to edit it.

I never criticized Been-there for his handling of the "debate" even though he misunderstand the rules thing, which really was the reason why it never got on track from the get go.

You are welcome to volunteer to moderate a debate between Nessie and me in the open debate section.
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Nessie
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Nessie »

A debate between us does not need moderating. It just needs you to answer my questions. It is not a debate if it only me answering your questions.
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Bobcat »

Nessie wrote: 14 Jul 2021, 15:40 A debate between us does not need moderating. It just needs you to answer my questions. It is not a debate if it only me answering your questions.
Nessie;
You claim that I have admitted there is no archaeological proof of mass graves at TII.
That you have Nessie:
"You [Werd] have been repeatedly told that there are no massive pits for Staffs Uni nor anyone else to find."

viewtopic.php?p=66756#p66756
How can there be archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II if "there are no massive pits for Staffs Uni nor anyone else to find"?
"They [the alleged mass grave of TII] have disappeared now."

viewtopic.php?p=70781#p70781
How can there be archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II if "They have disappeared now"?
"I have repeatedly said that those 5 or 6 massive rectangular pits have disappeared. They are not there any more. "

viewtopic.php?p=70771#p70771
How can there be archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II if "those 5 or 6 massive rectangular pits have disappeared" and "They are not there any more"?
"#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__."

...My actual answer is 0, because none of the 11 pits identified have been unearthed."

viewtopic.php?p=192288#p192288
How can there be archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II if your answer to the above question is "0"?
Nessie:
As for trash pits, they have been found as well... They are not phantom trash pits
Image

So which areas in yellow are the alleged "huge mass graves" and which ones are the alleged trash pits?

Nessie:
I don't know for certain.
viewtopic.php?p=115429#p115429
How can there be archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II if you "don't know for certain" which ones are the alleged mass graves and which ones are trash pits? Which means that you don't know for certain if any of them have been proven to be a mass grave.
Bobcat seems surprised I said that archaeology does not prove what happened at TII.

viewtopic.php?p=191737#p191737
How can there be archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II if "archaeology does not prove what happened at TII"?

Now Nessie, you challenged me to quote you admitting there is no archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II; which I have just done above. However, if you have changed your mind and now believe that there is archaeological proof of mass graves at Treblinka II, then I challenge you to answer the following simple question:

The MAXIMUM number of discernable / measurable extant mass graves of Treblinka II that you can unambiguously identify and conclusively prove actually exist, and in which legitimate archaeologists have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - conclusively proven to currently contain the remains of at least 2 people; is no less than __?__.

And Nessie's answer is: __?__
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Bobcat »

Nessie:

I have repeatedly said that those 5 or 6 massive rectangular pits have disappeared.

They have disappeared now... I cannot draw the pits [On a map - but, but, but:]

That there are no mass graves now does not mean there were none in the first place.

The original mass graves of TII do not exist anymore.

There are no massive pits at TII since the Nazis destroyed them.

I had actually said they had disappeared.

They are not there any more.
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Smallhaussen_sp
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Smallhaussen_sp »

been-there wrote: Yesterday, 11:09 The Treblinka narrative claims approximately 153,000 Jews were transported here, gassed and BURIED prior to commencing with cremations.
It is claimed disinternment and cremations didn’t begin till spring 1943.
I'm quoting you here so that you'll be notified about this post.

Your recent Treblinka post in the "Formal Propositions" gives an incorrect figure for the number of corpses thought to have been buried at T2 before cremations started in the Spring of '43.

The number of corpses to be disposed of by the end of '42 was over 700,000 - according to the Hoefle Telegram (713,555 by end of '42).

And you added an "n" to the word disinterment in what I quoted from you above.

And you should probably use a picture such as this:

Image

From Jansson's blog - here.

Or this one from here:

Image

EDIT: I only scanned your post - but it is somewhat ridiculous in its incredulity. The amount of cremains wouldn't add up to what you appear to think they would. :roll: The volume of a funeral urn is about 200 in3 = .0033 m3. 700,000 times that would be 231 m3. The area of a soccer field is 125m x 85m = 10,625 m2 - so 2% of the soccer field area by 1m deep. That's not much. Think of a soccer field reduced to just 2% of what it is! 15m x 15m x 1m = 225 m3. 15m x 15m is not that great an area. And it is alleged that the cremains go up to 7m deep (not just 1m). 6m x 6m x 7m = 252 m3.

It's pretty ridiculous that you would make such a strange post like that. Would you approve a rebuttal of it mocking it? It is really pretty mockworthy. I don't think there's enough space to bury all of those bodies at T2 - but the case is nothing as you've made it out to be. And the case for the cremains is not remarkable - there's plenty of space for those.

You've shown a very poor understanding of the matter in that post.
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by been-there »

Smallhaussen_sp wrote: Yesterday, 23:06
been-there wrote: Yesterday, 11:09 The Treblinka narrative claims approximately 153,000 Jews were transported here, gassed and BURIED prior to commencing with cremations.
It is claimed disinternment and cremations didn’t begin till spring 1943.
I'm quoting you here so that you'll be notified about this post.

Your recent Treblinka post in the "Formal Propositions" gives an incorrect figure for the number of corpses thought to have been buried at T2 before cremations started in the Spring of '43.

The number of corpses to be disposed of by the end of '42 was over 700,000 - according to the Höfle Telegram (713,555 by end of '42).

And you should probably use a picture such as this:

https://holocausthistorychannel.files.w ... =768&h=587

From Jansson's blog - here.

Or this one from here:

https://holocausthistorychannel.files.w ... hot-73.jpg

EDIT: I only scanned your post - but it is somewhat ridiculous in its incredulity. The amount of cremains wouldn't add up to what you appear to think they would. :roll: The volume of a funeral urn is about 200 in3 = .0033 m3. 700,000 times that would be 231 m3. The area of a soccer field is 125m x 85m = 10,625 m2 - so 2% of the soccer field area by 1m deep. That's not much. Think of a soccer field reduced to just 2% of what it is! 15m x 15m x 1m = 225 m3. 15m x 15m is not that great an area. And it is alleged that the cremains go up to 7m deep (not just 1m). 6m x 6m x 7m = 252 m3.

It's pretty ridiculous that you would make such a strange post like that. Would you approve a rebuttal of it mocking it? It is really pretty mockworthy. I don't think there's enough space to bury all of those bodies at T2 - but the case is nothing as you've made it out to be. And the case for the cremains is not remarkable - there's plenty of space for those.

You've shown a very poor understanding of the matter in that post.
I can’t say I like being wrong, but I do like being corrected when I am.
That’s basically why I came here in the first place, and why I’m still here.

So if you can, please go ahead and do that over there.
Quote me, show me where I am wrong and give the correct info.

I don’t see how you have corrected me above. Plus I haven’t the time nor inclination to go through your links right now.

If you can spell out my error and the correct understanding, clear, simple and to the point, I will be grateful.
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Smallhaussen_sp »

I went to google maps, btw, to see what the area of the LA Coliseum was.

The area of the whole stadium is about 62,000 m2:

Image

And that is what BT shows in his post - the whole coliseum. But even if we figure a person who is eyeballing that to be able to deftly subtract the areas without persons in it, the inner area is about 11,000 m2:

Image

So the area with people is about 50,000 m2 - and the stadium holds about 100,000 people - a packing density of about 2 people per square meter. When one realizes that the seated person has a depth of about a meter or so, you end up thinking a packing density of about 2 per cubic meter or less.

Charles Provan packed persons into a box he states is 21" x 21" x 60.5". If you click on this link, you see what he is referring to in a table at the very end of that webpage. Obviously a couple persons who are taller than 60.5" will not fit in the 60.5" box and their heads go above that - as can be seen in Provan's pictures here. The box as Provan specifies it is 0.42 m3 - so let's say it is an even 0.50 m3 to take into account these people who do not fully fit into it. Then that is 8 persons in a 0.5 m3 box - or 16 persons per m3 - 8 times the LA Coliseum density.

If one looks at this Harvard Crimson article about phone booth stuffing from 1959, one sees that the phone booths we are talking about here are 3' x 3' x 7' = 1.8 m3. And that article mentions that it is claimed that 33 persons are alleged to have been stuffed into a booth. This is not recognized as the official largest packing though on Wikipedia's page about Phonebooth stuffing. They recognize 25 people ranging from 5'-4" to 6'-2" having stuffed themselves into one of these phonebooths. So that is something like 14 people per cubic meter for phonebooth stuffing.

Obviously the Coliseum seating is less like the case of corpses thrown into pits than these latter 2 cases. The corpse packing density in pits is closer to the 14 or 16 corpses per cubic meter than it is to 2 corpses per cubic meter or less.

Showing a person a 2 person per cubic meter packing is misleading and not helpful for anyone. I can't infer the packing that would result from tossing corpses into large pits by looking at that - and no one else can either. Provan or phonebooth stuffing though would be much more helpful in the visualization - and is closer to what one would think it to be in the case of a very large number of corpses thrown into very large pits. The cadavers would of course contact each other and bend around each other. That is not the stadium case at all.

I claim that it is not very intuitive for what the packing density would be - other than to people who have given it good thought and looked over a large number of cases - as we have done here. Since we HAVE done that, we know quite well just how poor that stadium packing is, and only a dishonest person would use it to illustrate the matter.

Off the top of my head:

Stadium: 2 per m2 => 2 per m3 or less
Tokyo subway cars: 6-9 per m3
Phonebooth stuffing: 14-18 per m3 (all adults)
Provan's experiment: about 16-19 per m3 (mix of different ages)

The stadium case is not a good thing to show people. The people's bodies do not overlap at all in the stadium case - and both the spacing and the depth part is hard to figure from a picture of that. Only if one were to give it good thought would one know to multiply that packing by about 5 or so. Not being aware of any of the other examples, I imagine one MIGHT think there's a factor of maybe 2 or 3. It is more like a factor of 5 or more.

The stadium analogy confuses more than it enlightens.
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by been-there »

Smallhaussen_sp wrote: Today, 04:34 I went to google maps, btw, to see what the area of the LA Coliseum was.
The area of the whole stadium is about 62,000 m2:

And that is what BT shows in his post - the whole coliseum. But even if we figure a person who is eyeballing that to be able to deftly subtract the areas without persons in it, the inner area is about 11,000 m2
The use of a sports stadium is ONLY, ONLY, only to give a visual idea of the AMOUNT OF PEOPLE the Treblinka narrative is claiming were buried in a relatively tiny area.

So any discussion of the size of the stadium is not at all relevant.

The point is ONLY to visually help understand and answer THIS question:
‘could the amount of people claimed, really have been buried in the size of the area claimed at T2?’

Smallhaussen_sp wrote: Today, 04:34So the area with people is about 50,000 m2 - and the stadium holds about 100,000 people - a packing density of about 2 people per square meter. When one realizes that the seated person has a depth of about a meter or so, you end up thinking a packing density of about 2 per cubic meter or less...

... [snip]...Obviously the Coliseum seating is less like the case of corpses thrown into pits than these latter 2 cases. The corpse packing density in pits is closer to the 14 or 16 corpses per cubic meter than it is to 2 corpses per cubic meter or less.

Showing a person a 2 person per cubic meter packing is misleading and not helpful for anyone. I can't infer the packing that would result from tossing corpses into large pits by looking at that - and no one else can either. Provan or phonebooth stuffing though would be much more helpful in the visualization - and is closer to what one would think it to be in the case of a very large number of corpses thrown into very large pits. The cadavers would of course contact each other and bend around each other. That is not the stadium case at all.
You have missed the point and are taking it way to literally.
See answer above.

Smallhaussen_sp wrote: Today, 04:34I claim that it is not very intuitive for what the packing density would be - other than to people who have given it good thought and looked over a large number of cases - as we have done here. Since we HAVE done that, we know quite well just how poor that stadium packing is, and only a dishonest person would use it to illustrate the matter.

Off the top of my head:
Stadium: 2 per m2 => 2 per m3 or less
Tokyo subway cars: 6-9 per m3
Phonebooth stuffing: 14-18 per m3 (all adults)
Provan's experiment: about 16-19 per m3 (mix of different ages)

The stadium case is not a good thing to show people. The people's bodies do not overlap at all in the stadium case - and both the spacing and the depth part is hard to figure from a picture of that. Only if one were to give it good thought would one know to multiply that packing by about 5 or so. Not being aware of any of the other examples, I imagine one MIGHT think there's a factor of maybe 2 or 3. It is more like a factor of 5 or more.

The stadium analogy confuses more than it enlightens.
It confuses YOU because you are still missing the point of photos of x9 LA Coliseum stadiums, pictured to scale, above the camp of T2. It is ONLY to pictorially help give a better idea of the AMOUNT OF PEOPLE whose remains are supposedly buried there according to the Church-of-H Treblinka narrative: which is approx 750,000 to 900,000 people.

750,000 to 900,000 people is roughly 9x the capacity crowd at the LA Coliseum.

Do you understand now?
been-there wrote: Yesterday, 08:46 Image

Above is a photo of a sports stadium containing a great many human bodies.
It shows approximately 100,000 people watching a soccer game.

Imagine the size of a mass-grave big enough to bury that amount of people!

Below is a photo of the Los Angeles Coliseum that can accommodate 93,000 human bodies.

Image

Imagine the size of a mass-grave big enough to bury 1.5x that amount of people! :o

This is what the ‘holocaust’ narrative claims occurred at a small part of an already relatively small camp, near the small Polish town of Treblinka!
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or they cease being honest"
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Re: Open Thread for COMMENTS questions in new subforum

Post by Nessie »

The stadium analogy is a false analogy designed to make it appear impossible for the Nazis to have dug very large mass graves that 100,000s were buried in. The stadium has a huge amount of empty space. The mass graves did not. Due to decomposition, lack of clothing and pressure, the bodies at the bottom of the graves were virtually liquified, as found with bore hole samples at Belzec. There was no space at all. When the Nazis started to cremate instead of or as well as, then space was not an issue at all, as cremated remains take up very little space.

Revisionism is the desire to disbelieve that there was a Holocaust. Finding the claims about gassings, burials and cremations to be too incredible, is how revisionists justify their belief. Because they cannot work out how it was done, based on the limited information we have, they think therefore no one could have done it. Because they cannot imagine how hundreds of thousands of bodies would fit into mass graves that were described at up to 100m long, 25m wide and 10m deep, revisionists think therefore it is impossible.

Revisionist claims might have some weight, if they had expertise in the subjects they discussed, performed some experiments and gathered contemporaneous evidence. But they do none of that. Instead, they rely on false analogies, such as comparing stadiums to mass graves.
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