Mattogno's "Special Treatment"

[Nessie]

......

Pressac does not interpret the documents. He looks to see if there is evidence to corroborate the documents.

Yes, we know. Too bad he failed. That didn't stop you from copying and pasting the same stupid shit that Mattogno already refuted.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

He did not fail. If he failed, then every single historian who uses the historical method and who looks for corroborating, converging evidence is wrong. that means the entire of history has been inaccurately investigated

When he finds a document that refer to a special cellar or special action and at the same time gas tight doors are being fitted and witnesses state that people were being gassed and there were large arrivals at Birkenau, but only a few were registered to work, that evidence converges to prove gassing of people.

Non sequitor. Convergence to you here, means simply agreeing. And agreeing is not proof. Witnesses can lie. What separates liars from truth tellers? Documents. Documents tower above people in the hierarchy of evidence. THAT IS WHY YOU IGNORE OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT MATTONGO FINDS IN THE SAME TIME FRAME. Mattogno does what Pressac DOES NOT DO!

Documents are written by people. You cannot claim total accuracy and reliability from documents and no accuracy and reliability from people. There are plenty of documents that deniers claim are fake, because they say things deniers do not want to hear. Mattogno is wrong to concentrate only on documents and ignore all other evidence. That methodology is flawed and wrong.

The request for dentists does not tell us that the dead were gassed.

THEN YOU HAVE NO GODDAMN POINT!

The point you are trying to dodge is that it evidences there was a special action going on that involved dead people, rather than clothes or delousing.

It does tell us that the special action involved people, not clothes or showering.

It involves extracting gold teeth from corpses. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Glad you agree with me, special actions involved dead people. Inside the Kremas, there were special actions involving Jewish people, at the time gas chambers had been built inside those kremas. Every single person who worked at the Kremas stated the Jews were gassed. Circumstantial evidence proves that there were mass arrivals at the Kremas and very few people left.

[Huntinger]

Every single person who worked at the Kremas stated the Jews were gassed. Circumstantial evidence proves that there were mass arrivals at the Kremas and very few people left.

How many coerced liars would that make now. No photos of anyone entering the Kremas not reports of people on the sports fields seeing such things.

[Werd]

I ask you to explain Mattogno's methodology and amongst confusing waffle and shouting you say "I don't know if he would even say he has one."

Please stop eliminating context from conversations that you pluck quotes from.

Mattogno's claims are non sequiturs. The word special is used in a certain context for building A, therefore if that word is used about building B, it means the same. Wrong.

That's not his deductive method and you know it.

What is his deductive method then?

Nessie once again dodges all the text I put in bold and large in the post before him. He still refuses to answer Mattogno's questions.
viewtopic.php?p=183679#p183679
We all know why..

You then repeated yourself:

What is his deductive method?

And I responded:

What is his deductive method?

I don't know if he would even say he has one. But I can tell you what his epistemology is. I ALREADY EXPLAINED IT TO YOU!

If Pressac says special treatment in August 13 1943 document means gassing people, but Mattogno finds other August documents that clearly demonstrates that clothes and personal effects were being disinfested, then THAT DOCUMENT ABOUT THAT DAY IS NOT PROOF OF GASSING PEOPLE THAT DAY!

If a then b. A. Therefore b.

Nessie either accepts this, or he doesn't.

You are dodging my point. For no month in 1943 or 1944, when the Kremas were operating, is there any evidence from any source, that those people sent to the Kremas then left Birkenau alive.

God he's a fucking idiot. THIS IS NOT ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT A SPECIFIC DOCUMENT. THIS IS A SIMPLE EXERCISE IN PHILOSOPHY. NESSIE EITHER ACCEPTS THIS RULE OF PHILOSOPHY, OR HE DOESN'T. yes or no. Anything else for an answer is a dodge.

Now Nessie has no reason to pretend he doesn't understand how Mattogno does his work. All we have left is Nessie continuing to dodge hard questions.

So you were NOT ASKING ME about his methodology. You claimed he had a deductive method that was a non sequitor on his part. I told you that was a strawman. You then asked what his deductive method was. I told you I don't know what he would say, but that I could point you towards what he looks for. DOCUMENT CORROBORATION! He finds one document Pressac has a problem with. He then finds let say...5 or 6 documents issued AROUND THE SAME TIME, and they help ESTABLISH THE CONTEXT of how special treatment or special action was not gassing Jews.

This is very simple. You are pretending not to understand it. Because you are a lying troll that likes to create MORE PAGES!

[Werd]

......

Pressac does not interpret the documents. He looks to see if there is evidence to corroborate the documents.

Yes, we know. Too bad he failed. That didn't stop you from copying and pasting the same stupid shit that Mattogno already refuted.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

He did not fail.

He clearly did.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

If he failed, then every single historian who uses the historical method and who looks for corroborating, converging evidence is wrong. that means the entire of history has been inaccurately investigated

You're such a loser!
Nobody disagress with corroborating evidence. MATTOGNO FOUND THE REAL DOCUMENTARY RECORD CORROBORATES NON HOMICIDAL ACTIVITY! THAT'S THE POINT! When Pressac stacks up his 27 criminal traces IT DOES LOOK LIKE CORROBORATION. I UNDERSTAND A SIMPLETON LIKE YOU WOULD FALL FOR IT. But once you RIP APART THE STACK, and check each "criminal trace" individually, and then find 5 or 6 documents per criminal trace to establish the real context, THE HOMICIDAL CONTEXT DISAPPEARS LIKE FOG! TOO BAD. CRY ME A RIVER!

Mattogno is the REAL ONE who is showing true corroboration. And that just pisses you off. Which is why you always end up saying "well where did the Jews go then?"

Documents are written by people. You cannot claim total accuracy and reliability from documents and no accuracy and reliability from people. There are plenty of documents that deniers claim are fake, because they say things deniers do not want to hear. Mattogno is wrong to concentrate only on documents and ignore all other evidence. That methodology is flawed and wrong.

Blah blah blah. You're using vague words, but you can't show ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of where Mattogno screwed up in his response to Presasc.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3716
GO AHEAD AND FIND ONE. I DARE YOU!

Nessie can't cite a paragraph, much less a page number to show where Mattogno went wrong. I suspect he is most angry at sections 5.7 (since that dealt with the March 29 document he is so fond of as seen in my OP above), 4.3 and 4.4

Why are you so afraid of this after over a year, Nessie? Why can't you answer this challenge? Go ahead and show Mattogno is wrong. Don't just try to "logic" him as false a priori. That's like trying to prove God exists via ontological argument. You need to do better than that.

The point you are trying to dodge is that it evidences there was a special action going on that involved dead people, rather than clothes or delousing.

I'M THE ONE THAT WENT AND LOOKED INTO THAT VERY DOCUMENT THAT YOU POSTED ABOUT DENTAL WORK. AND FOUND OUT IT WASN'T ABOUT GASSING LIVING PEOPLE! SO WHAT IF IT DEALS WITH EXTRACTING DENTAL GOLD FROM CORPSES? I NEVER DENIED THIS!

It involves extracting gold teeth from corpses. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Glad you agree with me, special actions involved dead people.

AND HOW DOES THAT PROVE GASSING? OH IT DOESN'T? GREAT! THEN YOU HAVE NO POINT AND YOU NEVER WILL! YOU CAN KEEP TRYING TO STRETCH FROM GOLD IN CORPSES TO PEOPLE IN GAS CHAMBERS ALL YOU WANT. YOU CAN TRY TO EXTRAPOLATE WITH THIS LONE DOCUMENT ALL YOU WANT, BUT IT'LL END UP GETTING YOU NOWHERE EXCEPT FALLACY LAND, FOOL!

I'm not trying to do that, Werd.

THEN SHUT UP AND STOP WASTING TIME!

Inside the Kremas, there were special actions involving Jewish people,

Where are those documents that specifically say "special action" or "special treatment" that is connected to any Krema? Is it anywhere in that 2012 Holocaust controversies index? Or are you just going to keep repeating this bullshit over and over again pretending you have already proven it with JUST ONE EXAMPLE - AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN DONE THAT? I mean you came close at one point, talking about windows and doors, but that went nowhere.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

Find me a document that says special treatment or special action was going on in a leichenkeller or shut the hell up!

[been-there]

Excellent riposte.

Every person possessing the two qualities of honesty and intelligence can see you have totally refuted Nessie’s nonsensical, illogical arguments, Werd.

I don’t expect Nessie will ever acknowledge that because he appears to lack those two qualities when it concerns this cult-like belief system.

......

Pressac does not interpret the documents. He looks to see if there is evidence to corroborate the documents.

Yes, we know. Too bad he failed. That didn't stop you from copying and pasting the same stupid shit that Mattogno already refuted.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

He did not fail.

He clearly did.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

If he failed, then every single historian who uses the historical method and who looks for corroborating, converging evidence is wrong. that means the entire of history has been inaccurately investigated

You're such a loser!
Nobody disagress with corroborating evidence. MATTOGNO FOUND THE REAL DOCUMENTARY RECORD CORROBORATES NON HOMICIDAL ACTIVITY! THAT'S THE POINT! When Pressac stacks up his 27 criminal traces IT DOES LOOK LIKE CORROBORATION. I UNDERSTAND A SIMPLETON LIKE YOU WOULD FALL FOR IT. But once you RIP APART THE STACK, and check each "criminal trace" individually, and then find 5 or 6 documents per criminal trace to establish the real context, THE HOMICIDAL CONTEXT DISAPPEARS LIKE FOG! TOO BAD. CRY ME A RIVER!

Mattogno is the REAL ONE who is showing true corroboration. And that just pisses you off. Which is why you always end up saying "well where did the Jews go then?"

Documents are written by people. You cannot claim total accuracy and reliability from documents and no accuracy and reliability from people. There are plenty of documents that deniers claim are fake, because they say things deniers do not want to hear. Mattogno is wrong to concentrate only on documents and ignore all other evidence. That methodology is flawed and wrong.

Blah blah blah. You're using vague words, but you can't show ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of where Mattogno screwed up in his response to Presasc.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3716
GO AHEAD AND FIND ONE. I DARE YOU!

Nessie can't cite a paragraph, much less a page number to show where Mattogno went wrong. I suspect he is most angry at sections 5.7 (since that dealt with the March 29 document he is so fond of as seen in my OP above), 4.3 and 4.4

Why are you so afraid of this after over a year, Nessie? Why can't you answer this challenge? Go ahead and show Mattogno is wrong. Don't just try to "logic" him as false a priori. That's like trying to prove God exists via ontological argument. You need to do better than that.

The point you are trying to dodge is that it evidences there was a special action going on that involved dead people, rather than clothes or delousing.

I'M THE ONE THAT WENT AND LOOKED INTO THAT VERY DOCUMENT THAT YOU POSTED ABOUT DENTAL WORK. AND FOUND OUT IT WASN'T ABOUT GASSING LIVING PEOPLE! SO WHAT IF IT DEALS WITH EXTRACTING DENTAL GOLD FROM CORPSES? I NEVER DENIED THIS!

It involves extracting gold teeth from corpses. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Glad you agree with me, special actions involved dead people.

AND HOW DOES THAT PROVE GASSING? OH IT DOESN'T? GREAT! THEN YOU HAVE NO POINT AND YOU NEVER WILL! YOU CAN KEEP TRYING TO STRETCH FROM GOLD IN CORPSES TO PEOPLE IN GAS CHAMBERS ALL YOU WANT. YOU CAN TRY TO EXTRAPOLATE WITH THIS LONE DOCUMENT ALL YOU WANT, BUT IT'LL END UP GETTING YOU NOWHERE EXCEPT FALLACY LAND, FOOL!

I'm not trying to do that, Werd.

THEN SHUT UP AND STOP WASTING TIME!

Inside the Kremas, there were special actions involving Jewish people,

Where are those documents that specifically say "special action" or "special treatment" that is connected to any Krema? Is it anywhere in that 2012 Holocaust controversies index? Or are you just going to keep repeating this bullshit over and over again pretending you have already proven it with JUST ONE EXAMPLE - AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN DONE THAT? I mean you came close at one point, talking about windows and doors, but that went nowhere.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

Find me a document that says special treatment or special action was going on in a leichenkeller or shut the hell up!

[Nessie]

I ask you to explain Mattogno's methodology and amongst confusing waffle and shouting you say "I don't know if he would even say he has one."

Please stop eliminating context from conversations that you pluck quotes from.

......

So you were NOT ASKING ME about his methodology.[/quote]

Deductive method, methodology, if they are not the same, they are a hair's breadth away from each other and you are not picking.

You claimed he had a deductive method that was a non sequitor on his part. I told you that was a strawman. You then asked what his deductive method was. I told you I don't know what he would say, but that I could point you towards what he looks for. DOCUMENT CORROBORATION! He finds one document Pressac has a problem with. He then finds let say...5 or 6 documents issued AROUND THE SAME TIME, and they help ESTABLISH THE CONTEXT of how special treatment or special action was not gassing Jews.

This is very simple. You are pretending not to understand it. Because you are a lying troll that likes to create MORE PAGES!

After admitting you did not know and a bizarre post in capitals and colours that did not make sense, you come up with he corroborates documents! Explain why the corroborating documents methodology is reliable and credible and why all historians are wrong to include other forms of evidence.

[Nessie]

......

If he failed, then every single historian who uses the historical method and who looks for corroborating, converging evidence is wrong. that means the entire of history has been inaccurately investigated

You're such a loser!
Nobody disagress with corroborating evidence. MATTOGNO FOUND THE REAL DOCUMENTARY RECORD CORROBORATES NON HOMICIDAL ACTIVITY! THAT'S THE POINT! When Pressac stacks up his 27 criminal traces IT DOES LOOK LIKE CORROBORATION. I UNDERSTAND A SIMPLETON LIKE YOU WOULD FALL FOR IT. But once you RIP APART THE STACK, and check each "criminal trace" individually, and then find 5 or 6 documents per criminal trace to establish the real context, THE HOMICIDAL CONTEXT DISAPPEARS LIKE FOG! TOO BAD. CRY ME A RIVER!

Mattogno is the REAL ONE who is showing true corroboration. And that just pisses you off. Which is why you always end up saying "well where did the Jews go then?"

Mattogno cherry picks certain evidence and he refuses to look at other evidence that does not suit him. Pressace looks at all of the evidence. That makes Pressac's conclusion more reliable than Mattognos. Pressac's conclusion special referred to gassing people is more credible and reliable than Mattogno's suggestion it may have been about delousing clothing or showering that he cannot prove actually took place.

Documents are written by people. You cannot claim total accuracy and reliability from documents and no accuracy and reliability from people. There are plenty of documents that deniers claim are fake, because they say things deniers do not want to hear. Mattogno is wrong to concentrate only on documents and ignore all other evidence. That methodology is flawed and wrong.

Blah blah blah. You're using vague words,

No I am not, it is very clear what I am saying there. You claim certain documents are fake and that people may submit false reports, so you know that documents are not necessarily 100% reliable.

You contradict yourself when you claim documents are the most reliable form of evidence, but you often claim documents have been forged or otherwise faked.

....but you can't show ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of where Mattogno screwed up in his response to Presasc.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3716
GO AHEAD AND FIND ONE. I DARE YOU!

Nessie can't cite a paragraph, much less a page number to show where Mattogno went wrong. I suspect he is most angry at sections 5.7 (since that dealt with the March 29 document he is so fond of as seen in my OP above), 4.3 and 4.4

Why are you so afraid of this after over a year, Nessie? Why can't you answer this challenge? Go ahead and show Mattogno is wrong. Don't just try to "logic" him as false a priori. That's like trying to prove God exists via ontological argument. You need to do better than that.

The point you are trying to dodge is that it evidences there was a special action going on that involved dead people, rather than clothes or delousing.

I'M THE ONE THAT WENT AND LOOKED INTO THAT VERY DOCUMENT THAT YOU POSTED ABOUT DENTAL WORK. AND FOUND OUT IT WASN'T ABOUT GASSING LIVING PEOPLE! SO WHAT IF IT DEALS WITH EXTRACTING DENTAL GOLD FROM CORPSES? I NEVER DENIED THIS!

Mattogno is wrong about the dental document. He is wrong to conclude it has an innocent reference to "special". It, along with ALL of the other evidence, proves "special" was an action to kill Jews.

It involves extracting gold teeth from corpses. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Glad you agree with me, special actions involved dead people.

AND HOW DOES THAT PROVE GASSING? OH IT DOESN'T? GREAT! THEN YOU HAVE NO POINT AND YOU NEVER WILL! YOU CAN KEEP TRYING TO STRETCH FROM GOLD IN CORPSES TO PEOPLE IN GAS CHAMBERS ALL YOU WANT. YOU CAN TRY TO EXTRAPOLATE WITH THIS LONE DOCUMENT ALL YOU WANT, BUT IT'LL END UP GETTING YOU NOWHERE EXCEPT FALLACY LAND, FOOL!

I'm not trying to do that, Werd.

THEN SHUT UP AND STOP WASTING TIME!

You are panicked. I am not claiming the dental document on its own is proof. What is does prove is that "special" included an action to remove teeth from people. That is people, not clothes or showering.

Inside the Kremas, there were special actions involving Jewish people,

Where are those documents that specifically say "special action" or "special treatment" that is connected to any Krema? Is it anywhere in that 2012 Holocaust controversies index? Or are you just going to keep repeating this bullshit over and over again pretending you have already proven it with JUST ONE EXAMPLE - AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN DONE THAT? I mean you came close at one point, talking about windows and doors, but that went nowhere.
viewtopic.php?p=184065#p184065

Find me a document that says special treatment or special action was going on in a leichenkeller or shut the hell up!

This proves a special action took place inside the Kremas, which were being constructed to enable that action

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

"Letter from Karl Bischoff to SS-WVHA of 13 October 1942 on “due to the situation created by the special actions, the construction of the crematorium had to be begun immediately just this past July”

This identifies that the special action involved one of the underground rooms in the Krema;

"Report from Karl Bischoff of 4 November 1942 on “special cellar” in crematorium 2 [ A new document mentioning "special cellars" (Sonderkeller) in the crematoria 2 and 3 at Birkenau ]"
"Memo from Fritz Wolter of 27 November 1942 on “special cellars” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 180]"

This shows that the special action was not just limited to one room in the Kremas;

"Memo from Heinrich Swoboda of 29 January 1943 on “cremation with simultaneous special treatment” in crematorium 2"

It does not matter that special action can be identified specifically to a Liechenkeller, it involved the use of the whole building.

[Werd]

After admitting you did not know...

Nessie dodges once again me explaining what I DO in fact know.

What is his deductive method?

I don't know if he would even say he has one. But I can tell you what his epistemology is. I ALREADY EXPLAINED IT TO YOU!

If Pressac says special treatment in August 13 1943 document means gassing people, but Mattogno finds other August documents that clearly demonstrates that clothes and personal effects were being disinfested, then THAT DOCUMENT ABOUT THAT DAY IS NOT PROOF OF GASSING PEOPLE THAT DAY!

If a then b. A. Therefore b.

Nessie either accepts this, or he doesn't.

You are dodging my point. For no month in 1943 or 1944, when the Kremas were operating, is there any evidence from any source, that those people sent to the Kremas then left Birkenau alive.

God he's a fucking idiot. THIS IS NOT ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT A SPECIFIC DOCUMENT. THIS IS A SIMPLE EXERCISE IN PHILOSOPHY. NESSIE EITHER ACCEPTS THIS RULE OF PHILOSOPHY, OR HE DOESN'T. yes or no. Anything else for an answer is a dodge.

Now Nessie has no reason to pretend he doesn't understand how Mattogno does his work. All we have left is Nessie continuing to dodge hard questions.

What I SAID was I don't know how Mattogno would describe what he does. But I did offer the word "epistemology" to Nessie.

and a bizarre post in capitals and colours that did not make sense,

Nessie now pretends he can't understand a simple If A then B deductive syllogism. He is pretending to be ignorant and blaming me. A sign he lost the debate pages ago.

you come up with he corroborates documents!

I know. It bothers you. Just like it did Pressac and Van Pelt. lol.

Explain why the corroborating documents methodology is reliable

IT'S YOU GUYS THAT ARE CLAIMING THAT THE CORROBORATING DOCUMENT METHODOLOGY IS VALID BECAUSE THERE ARE APPARENTLY CRIMINAL TRACES. BUT WHEN THESE DOCUMENTS ARE ACTUALLY EXAMINED, THE HOMICIDAL "CONTEXT" VANISHES. SO THEN YOU PRETEND TO HAVE NEVER WANTED TO USE CORROBORATING DOCUMENTS METHOD ONCE IT BLOWS UP IN YOUR FACE!

[Werd]

Find me a document that says special treatment or special action was going on in a leichenkeller or shut the hell up!

This proves a special action took place inside the Kremas, which were being constructed to enable that action

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

"Letter from Karl Bischoff to SS-WVHA of 13 October 1942 on “due to the situation created by the special actions, the construction of the crematorium had to be begun immediately just this past July”

NO IT DOESN'T! STOP USING THIS FALSE DOCUMENT! MATTOGNO ALREADY EXPLAINED WHAT THIS DOCUMENT MEANS
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3382
viewtopic.php?p=129784#p129784
AND YOU REFUSED TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I INTERSPERSED IN BETWEEN THE PAGES
viewtopic.php?p=129786#p129786

YOU LOSE. PRESSAC LOSES!

This identifies that the special action involved one of the underground rooms in the Krema;

"Report from Karl Bischoff of 4 November 1942 on “special cellar” in crematorium 2 [ A new document mentioning "special cellars" (Sonderkeller) in the crematoria 2 and 3 at Birkenau ]"
"Memo from Fritz Wolter of 27 November 1942 on “special cellars” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 180]"

Is this really the best you have?






There we go. Nothing homicidal at all. Just a proper air ventilation/air exchange system. You're grasping at straws based on the circular logic that there is a code language to begin with.

[Werd]

"Memo from Heinrich Swoboda of 29 January 1943 on “cremation with simultaneous special treatment” in crematorium 2"

A new topic will be created for this in Siberian exile just like my first two topics there about Mattogno destroying Pressac's criminal traces.