Where did they go

[Huntinger]

OK, so show me evidence that in 1943, Poznan, Kepno and Lodz had large Jewish populations resettled from the AR camps. Show evidence where Jews were resettled in 1943, from Ostland to the RKU.

It is suggested the poster does some research in the people sent to Ostland, who lived in Belarus and Ukraine instead of demanding information. We are not here to do his research.
There were 60 Reinhardt customs facilities for processing Juden. They went both ways as reported by Arad and the Station Master at the Treblinka facilities. That is from Lublin to Bialystok via Treblinka returning.

[Nessie]

OK, so show me evidence that in 1943, Poznan, Kepno and Lodz had large Jewish populations resettled from the AR camps. Show evidence where Jews were resettled in 1943, from Ostland to the RKU.

It is suggested the poster does some research in the people sent to Ostland, who lived in Belarus and Ukraine instead of demanding information. We are not here to do his research.
There were 60 Reinhardt customs facilities for processing Juden. They went both ways as reported by Arad and the Station Master at the Treblinka facilities. That is from Lublin to Bialystok via Treblinka returning.

It is up to you to evidence your claims. This thread proves you have no evidence of mass departures from the AR camps and large scale resettlement of Jews in Ostland and the RKU in 1943.

[Huntinger]

It is up to you to evidence your claims. This thread proves you have no evidence of mass departures from the AR camps and large scale resettlement of Jews in Ostland and the RKU in 1943.

Korherr said there was, that is enough evidence. The loss of records is probably the result of Soviet Polish interdiction.
Due to the war with the Soviet Union, the "final solution" was redefined from deportations to Madagascar to deportations to the east.

January 30, 1942 diary entry of Herman Kruk we read:
“A train with Jews passed by in Vilnius today. The Jews said that they are being taken to work from Sosnowiec and the surrounding area in Upper Silesia. The train left in the direction of the Eastern Front.”

In Smolensk, in German-occupied western Russia, a camp existed to which Polish Jews were sent from Warsaw in July 1942.
(Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde. Die deutsche Wirtschafts-und Vernichtungspolitik in Weißrußland 1941 bis 1944 (Hamburg: Hamburger Edition, 1999), p. 762.

On January 1, 1943 The Jewish Chronicle reported:
“Czech Jews are now being sent from the notorious Terezin fortress-ghetto to areas near the Eastern front. Everyone between the ages of 18 and 45 is made to work on the building of fortifications. There is evidence that Czech Jews had been working on fortifications within 35 miles of Stalingrad.”
(“Czech Jews sent to Russia,” The Jewish Chronicle, January 1, 1943, p. 9)

The Korherr Report (from April 19, 1943) states that 170,642 Jews had been evacuated “from the Reich territory including the Protectorate and Bialystok district to the East [nach dem Osten]; these went all over the place some to Auschwitz.

On December 16, 1942, the head of the Gestapo, SS-Gruppenführer Heinrich Müller, sent Himmler an urgent telegram requesting permission for the transport of 45,000 Jews to Auschwitz during the period January 11-31, 1943 “in respect of the increased transport of labor to concentration camps ordered by January 30, 1943.” Of these 45,000 Jews, 10,000 were to come from Theresienstadt, 3,000 from the Netherlands, 2,000 from Berlin, and 30,000 from the Białystok District. ; this tally included those unfit for work.

Heinz Errelis, former head of the Gestapo in Grodno, testified on August 13, 1963 that:
“At that time I was completely convinced that the Jews were to be resettled in another settlement area [Wohngebiet] in the Auschwitz region [Raum Auschwitz]. In the official correspondence from that time only ‘resettlement’ [Umsiedlung] was ever mentioned. The thought that the Jews were killed never struck me even once, as in my view they constituted an important factor in the armaments industry.”
()

Most of the Jews deported from the Białystok District, however, were sent to Treblinka, where they were allegedly gassed en masse. Many juden were used in draining the Pripyat swamps. A look at a map of the Reichsbahn railway network in Eastern Europe shows that convoys could have been sent from the city of Białystok to Treblinka via Małkinia and from there on to Brest-Litovsk via Siedlce, Lukow. From Brest-Litovsk the trains could have continued further east to destinations such as Luniniec and Pinsk in the heart of the marshland. However, as previously mentioned there were news reports of people walking.

Treblinka an alleged extermination centre was operational from 23 July 1942 – October 1943

Arad reports that:
The transports, which included seventy-six freight cars, arrived in Treblinka on August 18 and 19, 1943 The other three transports passed through Treblinka, but continued on. One went to Majdanek; one to Auschwitz; and one with children to Theresienstadt.
This was two weeks after the alleged uprising; Wiki reports that:
The camp's new commandant Kurt Franz, formerly its deputy commandant, took over in August. After the war he testified that gassings had stopped by then. In reality, despite the extensive damage to the camp, the gas chambers were intact, and the killing of Polish Jews continued. Speed was reduced, with only ten wagons rolled onto the ramp at a time, while the others had to wait. The last two rail transports of Jews were brought to the camp for gassing from the Białystok Ghetto on 18 and 19 August 1943.

However, Franciszek Zabecki the Treblinka Station Master reports:

1. “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
2. On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
3. On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
4. On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
5. On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
6. On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”

Jude Arad reports hearsay but the Stationmaster is giving documented reports of fact.

While Treblinka was operational and allegedly gassing people there was a transport of 32 wagons on Wed 18 August 1943 (about 3,200 people) which were sent on to Lublin. This is a customs border outpost which is the reasons for stopping. There were two transports to Treblinka on Thursday the 19th August involving a total of 79 wagons (8000) people. The first transport left Treblinka with occupants (4000) towards Lublin while the second one with about 3900 people stayed until 24th August which was the following Tuesday; a stay of 5 nights before 9 wagons (900) departed to Lublin. All this going on while people were allegedly being exterminated. .

So far this is 11,100 people arrived, 8,100 departed and 3000 people remaining at Treblinka. (none of these people reported any horror stories which was allegedly going on at the time). They remained until Wed 8th September with a potential duration of 21 days.
On the 8th September 1943, 31 wagons with the remaining 3000 people departed for Lublin.

Assuming there were 100 to a wagon this is 11,100 people transited through Treblinka, a Zollgrenzschutz customs facility holding pen.

[Nessie]

It is up to you to evidence your claims. This thread proves you have no evidence of mass departures from the AR camps and large scale resettlement of Jews in Ostland and the RKU in 1943.

Korherr said there was, that is enough evidence. The loss of records is probably the result of Soviet Polish interdiction.
Due to the war with the Soviet Union, the "final solution" was redefined from deportations to Madagascar to deportations to the east.

January 30, 1942 diary entry of Herman Kruk we read:
“A train with Jews passed by in Vilnius today. The Jews said that they are being taken to work from Sosnowiec and the surrounding area in Upper Silesia. The train left in the direction of the Eastern Front.”

Where were the Nazis accommodating those people in 1943?

In Smolensk, in German-occupied western Russia, a camp existed to which Polish Jews were sent from Warsaw in July 1942.
(Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde. Die deutsche Wirtschafts-und Vernichtungspolitik in Weißrußland 1941 bis 1944 (Hamburg: Hamburger Edition, 1999), p. 762.

https://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories ... sp?cid=675

"The ghettoization of between 1,200 and 2,000 Jews from Smolensk and refugees from Belorussia began on August 5, 1941 (or at the end of July, according to other sources). The selected area, called the Sadki settlement, was located near the Jewish cemetery across the Dnieper River. .... On July 15 (or July 16) 1942 the ghetto was liquidated. The Germans took the inmates to a trench that had been prepared in advance and shot them to death.

Yet another ghetto that closed in 1942.

On January 1, 1943 The Jewish Chronicle reported:
“Czech Jews are now being sent from the notorious Terezin fortress-ghetto to areas near the Eastern front. Everyone between the ages of 18 and 45 is made to work on the building of fortifications. There is evidence that Czech Jews had been working on fortifications within 35 miles of Stalingrad.”
(“Czech Jews sent to Russia,” The Jewish Chronicle, January 1, 1943, p. 9)

Where were they being accommodated?

The Korherr Report (from April 19, 1943) states that 170,642 Jews had been evacuated “from the Reich territory including the Protectorate and Bialystok district to the East [nach dem Osten]; these went all over the place some to Auschwitz.

On December 16, 1942, the head of the Gestapo, SS-Gruppenführer Heinrich Müller, sent Himmler an urgent telegram requesting permission for the transport of 45,000 Jews to Auschwitz during the period January 11-31, 1943 “in respect of the increased transport of labor to concentration camps ordered by January 30, 1943.” Of these 45,000 Jews, 10,000 were to come from Theresienstadt, 3,000 from the Netherlands, 2,000 from Berlin, and 30,000 from the Białystok District. ; this tally included those unfit for work.

Where were those unfit for work accommodated?

Heinz Errelis, former head of the Gestapo in Grodno, testified on August 13, 1963 that:
“At that time I was completely convinced that the Jews were to be resettled in another settlement area [Wohngebiet] in the Auschwitz region [Raum Auschwitz]. In the official correspondence from that time only ‘resettlement’ [Umsiedlung] was ever mentioned. The thought that the Jews were killed never struck me even once, as in my view they constituted an important factor in the armaments industry.”
()

An admission that Jews were being killed, not resettled.

Most of the Jews deported from the Białystok District, however, were sent to Treblinka, where they were allegedly gassed en masse. Many juden were used in draining the Pripyat swamps. A look at a map of the Reichsbahn railway network in Eastern Europe shows that convoys could have been sent from the city of Białystok to Treblinka via Małkinia and from there on to Brest-Litovsk via Siedlce, Lukow. From Brest-Litovsk the trains could have continued further east to destinations such as Luniniec and Pinsk in the heart of the marshland. However, as previously mentioned there were news reports of people walking.

Treblinka an alleged extermination centre was operational from 23 July 1942 – October 1943

Arad reports that:
The transports, which included seventy-six freight cars, arrived in Treblinka on August 18 and 19, 1943 The other three transports passed through Treblinka, but continued on. One went to Majdanek; one to Auschwitz; and one with children to Theresienstadt.
This was two weeks after the alleged uprising; Wiki reports that:
The camp's new commandant Kurt Franz, formerly its deputy commandant, took over in August. After the war he testified that gassings had stopped by then. In reality, despite the extensive damage to the camp, the gas chambers were intact, and the killing of Polish Jews continued.

Which is credible evidence TII was a death camp.

Speed was reduced, with only ten wagons rolled onto the ramp at a time, while the others had to wait. The last two rail transports of Jews were brought to the camp for gassing from the Białystok Ghetto on 18 and 19 August 1943.

However, Franciszek Zabecki the Treblinka Station Master reports:

1. “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
2. On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
3. On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
4. On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
5. On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
6. On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”

Jude Arad reports hearsay but the Stationmaster is giving documented reports of fact.

Indeed, Zabecki and all of the other Polish railworkers reported mass arrivals of people and empty trains, or trains carrying property leaving.

While Treblinka was operational and allegedly gassing people there was a transport of 32 wagons on Wed 18 August 1943 (about 3,200 people) which were sent on to Lublin. This is a customs border outpost which is the reasons for stopping. There were two transports to Treblinka on Thursday the 19th August involving a total of 79 wagons (8000) people. The first transport left Treblinka with occupants (4000) towards Lublin while the second one with about 3900 people stayed until 24th August which was the following Tuesday; a stay of 5 nights before 9 wagons (900) departed to Lublin. All this going on while people were allegedly being exterminated. .

So far this is 11,100 people arrived, 8,100 departed and 3000 people remaining at Treblinka. (none of these people reported any horror stories which was allegedly going on at the time). They remained until Wed 8th September with a potential duration of 21 days.
On the 8th September 1943, 31 wagons with the remaining 3000 people departed for Lublin.

Assuming there were 100 to a wagon this is 11,100 people transited through Treblinka, a Zollgrenzschutz customs facility holding pen.

Please show me the source you plagiarised that from.

[Huntinger]

What is clear is that the Reich sent people across the borders into Ostland and the RKU; it is clear that those unfit to work were in the area as they returned in the transports in 1943; so much for killing "useless eaters." The total area in question is about 450 thousand kilometres square, which means there was no nice resettlement package; within these area people were moved as work demands surfaced. Enough information in the past has been given of those who were sent to Ostland and the RKU without continual dwelling on it, trying to account for everyone in a fog of war.

Franciszek Zabecki the Treblinka Station Master reports:

1. “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
2. On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
3. On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
4. On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
5. On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
6. On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”

This means:
While Treblinka was operational and allegedly gassing people there was a transport of 32 wagons on Wed 18 August 1943 (about 3,200 people) which were sent on to Lublin. This is a customs border outpost which is the reasons for stopping. There were two transports to Treblinka on Thursday the 19th August involving a total of 79 wagons (8000) people. The first transport left Treblinka with occupants (4000) towards Lublin while the second one with about 3900 people stayed until 24th August which was the following Tuesday; a stay of 5 nights before 9 wagons (900) departed to Lublin. All this going on while people were allegedly being exterminated. .

So far this is 11,100 people arrived, 8,100 departed and 3000 people remaining at Treblinka. (none of these people reported any horror stories which was allegedly going on at the time). They remained until Wed 8th September with a potential duration of 21 days.
On the 8th September 1943, 31 wagons with the remaining 3000 people departed for Lublin.

Assuming there were 100 to a wagon this is 11,100 people transited through Treblinka, a Zollgrenzschutz customs facility holding pen.

To this information showing that Treblinka II was indeed a Transit facility the following statement is made.

Indeed, Zabecki and all of the other Polish railworkers reported mass arrivals of people and empty trains, or trains carrying property leaving.

It is clear that even though it was spelled out for readers this person cannot comprehend: let me restate the conclusion from the above information.

Assuming there were 100 to a wagon this is 11,100 people transited through Treblinka while it was still allegedly exterminating people. Some stayed for a period of 21 days through this extermination period.

The poster asks the following in respect to the analysis given by myself of Franciszek Zabecki diary entries.

Please show me the source you plagiarised that from.

This means that this poster:

1. Has not even read the information and so should not be responding. He is trolling. Use of an attempted put down.
2. Cannot comprehend what is written to the degree required to be posting on this forum. This is evidenced below where he cannot link the information given in the post to deduce the meaning intended. He has not read anything, just making troll statements.

The information above totally contradicts what Jude Arad states; the wiki report is just quoting Jude Arad. Without even looking at the train schedules departure, transit and destination points the poster dimly states:

Which is credible evidence TII was a death camp.

Without looking at the train schedules the poster states:

Indeed, Zabecki and all of the other Polish railworkers reported mass arrivals of people and empty trains, or trains carrying property leaving.

He fails to comprehend in the slightest that these schedules by Zabecki were reporting the following:

• Mass arrivals
• Prolonged stays
• Mass departures
• Movement of 11,100 people transited through Treblinka in a period of 3 weeks.

[Nessie]

What is clear is that the Reich sent people across the borders into Ostland and the RKU; it is clear that those unfit to work were in the area as they returned in the transports in 1943; so much for killing "useless eaters." The total area in question is about 450 thousand kilometres square, which means there was no nice resettlement package; within these area people were moved as work demands surfaced. Enough information in the past has been given of those who were sent to Ostland and the RKU without continual dwelling on it, trying to account for everyone in a fog of war.

You just repeatedly claim that, without producing any evidence.

Franciszek Zabecki the Treblinka Station Master reports:

1. “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
2. On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
3. On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
4. On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
5. On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
6. On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”

This means:
While Treblinka was operational and allegedly gassing people there was a transport of 32 wagons on Wed 18 August 1943 (about 3,200 people) which were sent on to Lublin. This is a customs border outpost which is the reasons for stopping. There were two transports to Treblinka on Thursday the 19th August involving a total of 79 wagons (8000) people. The first transport left Treblinka with occupants (4000) towards Lublin while the second one with about 3900 people stayed until 24th August which was the following Tuesday; a stay of 5 nights before 9 wagons (900) departed to Lublin. All this going on while people were allegedly being exterminated. .

So far this is 11,100 people arrived, 8,100 departed and 3000 people remaining at Treblinka. (none of these people reported any horror stories which was allegedly going on at the time). They remained until Wed 8th September with a potential duration of 21 days.
On the 8th September 1943, 31 wagons with the remaining 3000 people departed for Lublin.

Assuming there were 100 to a wagon this is 11,100 people transited through Treblinka, a Zollgrenzschutz customs facility holding pen.

To this information showing that Treblinka II was indeed a Transit facility the following statement is made.

Indeed, Zabecki and all of the other Polish railworkers reported mass arrivals of people and empty trains, or trains carrying property leaving.

It is clear that even though it was spelled out for readers this person cannot comprehend: let me restate the conclusion from the above information.

Assuming there were 100 to a wagon this is 11,100 people transited through Treblinka while it was still allegedly exterminating people. Some stayed for a period of 21 days through this extermination period.

The poster asks the following in respect to the analysis given by myself of Franciszek Zabecki diary entries.

Please show me the source you plagiarised that from.

This means that this poster:

1. Has not even read the information and so should not be responding. He is trolling. Use of an attempted put down.
2. Cannot comprehend what is written to the degree required to be posting on this forum. This is evidenced below where he cannot link the information given in the post to deduce the meaning intended. He has not read anything, just making troll statements.

The information above totally contradicts what Jude Arad states; the wiki report is just quoting Jude Arad. Without even looking at the train schedules departure, transit and destination points the poster dimly states:

Which is credible evidence TII was a death camp.

Without looking at the train schedules the poster states:

Indeed, Zabecki and all of the other Polish railworkers reported mass arrivals of people and empty trains, or trains carrying property leaving.

He fails to comprehend in the slightest that these schedules by Zabecki were reporting the following:

• Mass arrivals
• Prolonged stays
• Mass departures
• Movement of 11,100 people transited through Treblinka in a period of 3 weeks.

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... aCA3cjs3Zg

"I can state that transports reached their peak between the end of July 1942 and New Year’s Day 1943, and it will be accurate to say that they arrived every day...Transports of Jews ran outside the regular timetable and in order to regulate their passage, German railway directorates would send railway stations their timetables. .... Empty trains ran according to timetables.....As regards transports of victims’ belongings sent from the camp to the Reich, I would not be mistaken in my estimation that around 1000 wagons with clothes, shoes, etc. passed through the station."

Zabecki is clear, people arrived and empty trains and property left.

[Huntinger]

Zabecki is clear, people arrived and empty trains and property left.

This would be expected of a transit border facility when the emphasis was on evacuation and not people coming the other way. This reversed with the Bialystok transports. It is super clear from the 11 thousand people what the nature of the facility was.
There is no direct train from Białystok to Lublin. However, there are services departing from Bialystok and arriving at Lublin via Warszawa Wschodnia. The journey, including transfers, takes approximately 4h 37m. Even with the line from Malkinia to Siedlce Warsaw was the intermediate route.
Less than 5 hours travel by train is reasonable in a day with no need to stop as the trains did at Treblinka. It is clear that they stopped for a purpose; most like Customs processing. The General Government border was protected by Zollgrenzschutz (customs border protection) along with Grenzpolizei (border guards), not only for civilians but troops including SS and Polizei as well.

The evacuated people went into the highlighted areas below. The whole area (and much more) was annexed by the Soviets at wars end; this was behind the Iron Curtain. The Russians could not afford atrocity propaganda directed against them so they continued with the Reich genocide myth.

[Nessie]

.....

The evacuated people went into the highlighted areas below. ...

How did the Nazis manage to not leave any evidence of accommodating c1.274 million people, in the area shown in 1943-4? How did they do that?

You say that is where all of those people went, but you have no evidence of their transportation, arrival and accommodation. It is physically impossible to do that without leaving evidence. That area contained large ghettos of Jews under Nazi rule that had been mostly closed down by the end of 1943. The Jewish population of that area was dropping, not increasing under Nazi rule.

[Huntinger]

You say that is where all of those people went, but you have no evidence of their transportation, arrival and accommodation.

Some evidence remains but most was hidden behind the Iron Curtain. The west got to know only what Comrade Stalin wanted the world to know. The archives are locked.

[Nessie]

You say that is where all of those people went, but you have no evidence of their transportation, arrival and accommodation.

Some evidence remains but most was hidden behind the Iron Curtain. The west got to know only what Comrade Stalin wanted the world to know. The archives are locked.

The SU ended decades ago. Mattogno has accessed former SU archives. There are archives all over the world, including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine, specific to the Holocaust, full list here;

https://portal.ehri-project.eu/countries/ee

Those are the countries that cover the area here;



Access varies from country to country and even location to location, but in any case, nearly 2 million people being accommodated by the Nazis in 1943 would not just leave documents, it would have left plenty of witnesses and the locations where they were being accommodated. You cannot produce any evidence, from any source.