Where did they go

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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

BTW, Nessie, you have been given ample time to claim I've lied about the five individuals mentioned in the USHMM records. That you have done. You've also claimed that you have searched diligently for such records and they don't exist. So, without further ado, here is the USHMM record of the five deportees who left T-II and a listing of the camps to which they were sent. Go here:
https://codoh.com/library/document/many ... inka-1/en/
I assume that you will now apologize for calling me a liar; that the USHMM records were a figment of my imagination. Well, probably not.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:52 pm
Nessie is just going to reiterate his spurious lies about testimony and documentation. He has documentary evidence for 417 deportees leaving T-II but demands that revisionists document where the ~850,000 allegedly sent to T-II went.
That is your demand. Since you have rejected all witness evidence to transports, all we are left with is documentary evidence.
Excepting the empty trains returning to Warsaw not even the outbound trains carrying the 12,000-15,000 deportees to Budzyn, Majdanek, Auschwitz and other destinations are documented. Zabecki is Nessie's source when his testimony isn't inconvenient such as when he claims that a trainload of deportees numbered 8,000-10,000 individuals. Witness testimony for the two trainloads of deportees leaving T-II is inconvenient so they are relegated to people who didn't know where they were. Must have been Malkinia or the penal camp at T-I. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Nessie claims that Hunt's estimate of 12,000-15,000 deportees leaving T-II was wrong and was later retracted by Hunt. That was, of course, my estimate for the number of deportees who left T-II and just another example of Nessie's lies. He attempts a weak suck weasel dodge for that claim but fails miserably. No wonder that he continually accuses his opponents of lying. He's an expert at it so expects others to be just as dishonest as him.
OK, it is your estimate, not Eric Hunts. How do you justify estimating 12-15,000 were transported out of TII, when the only documentary evidence you have of arrivals at another camp is the 412 at Majdanek?

How does 412 magically morph into 12-15,000?
The fact remains that he has documentary evidence for only 417 deportees leaving T-II ...
You claim 412 to Majdanek and 5 to elsewhere, but you refuse to show the documentary source for the 5. You claim it is USHMM, but I have searched the site and cannot find any.
...but demands documentary evidence for ~850,000 leaving T-II.
Yes I do, it is your claim, you will only accept documents, so where are they?

Why should I believe your claim of mass transports to other camps, when there are no documents at those camps recording arrivals from TII?
The fact that the ~850,000 weren't steamed/gassed/vacuumed in a hermetically sealed building, buried...etc. is evidence that the deportees were sent elsewhere. That's inconvenient evidence so Nessie ignores it. Nessie claims that evidence is relevant only when it's convenient for his agenda. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
Your claim that they were not gassed, therefore they left the camp is a non sequitur. It is the same form of argument that you have accused me of making, that since they did not leave the camp, therefore they were gassed. You correctly identify that argument as faulty, but you then make the same faulty argument. Leaving the camp is not the only option. That they were gassed at the camp is the other option, and it is evidenced.

1 - There are documents from Hofle, Korherr, Ganzenmuller, Stroop and numerous ghettos recording transports to TII. That total was 713,555 by 31/12/1942 and c850,000 by the time the camp closed.

2 - There is the Warsaw Shuttle train record and Zabecki's records that document empty trains left the camp. The camp records for Theresienstadt records transports to TII, with no returns.

3 - The only documents recording an arrival from TII have been found at Majdanek, which accounts for only 412 people.

So, numerous documents records arrivals at TII and only one place has documents recording arrivals from TII. Based on the documentary evidence, hundreds of thousands went to TII and only a few hundred left. But, inexplicably, Turnagain demands we believe hundreds of thousands left.

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:34 pm
BTW, Nessie, you have been given ample time to claim I've lied about the five individuals mentioned in the USHMM records. That you have done. You've also claimed that you have searched diligently for such records and they don't exist. So, without further ado, here is the USHMM record of the five deportees who left T-II and a listing of the camps to which they were sent. Go here:
https://codoh.com/library/document/many ... inka-1/en/
I assume that you will now apologize for calling me a liar; that the USHMM records were a figment of my imagination. Well, probably not.
You are not getting an apology since this is your fault for not producing the evidence on numerous occasions when I asked to see it. You most recently reacted with a "sigh", rather than post the evidence. :roll:

What has been linked to is seven witnesses who say they were at Treblinka of them 6 are recorded as having gone to Majdanek, but there are no dates or any chronology to show what order they went to the camps. Those 6 could be part of the documented 412 who went to Majdanek, so that would be double counting to claim them as additional transports. The exception is Gray-Grynberg who is reported to have gone from TII to Zambrow to Rembertow and then back to TI. If you check his actual record;

https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/vha8605

It states he was liberated from Bialystok. The second camp he is listed to have gone to is Zambrow;

https://sztetl.org.pl/en/towns/z/1173-z ... mp-zambrow

"During World War II German Nazis established a transit and collection camp for Jewish people in the area of the former military barracks in Zambrów. The Jews who were gathered there were deported, among others, from Czyżew, Jedwabno, Kobylino, Kupiski, Kołaki, Łomża, Śniadowo, Wysokie Mazowickie, Zambrów. Persuant to different estimations, thirteen to twenty thousand prisoners went through Zambrów’s camp. Those who were placed in it were consecutively deported to Treblinka and Auschwitz."

Zambrow was a transit camp that sent people to Treblinka or Auschwitz. So, Gray-Grynberg would have gone from Zambrow to Treblinka, not the other way around. Next is Rembertow;

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... ertow.html

"On 19-20 August 1942, the Germans together with Ukrainian-SS volunteers and Polish 'Blue' police drove out 1,800 Jews residing in Rembertow to Falenica, and Miedzeszyn and from there they were deported to Treblinka death camp. More than 1,000 Jews from the vicinity of Rembertow, were brought to two labour camps in Rembertow, which were still operational. In June 1943, the Gestapo murdered about 1,000 inmates of the Pocisk camp and in August 1943, they murdered the last remaining Jews living in Rembertow."

Again, Jews went from Rembertow to Trebinka, or they were kept in a labour camp till they were killed. It is not clear what order Gray-Grynberg went from camp to camp, but both Zambrow and Rembertow sent people to Treblinka and clearly he also went to the TI labour camp.

That means only one witness is identified as possibly having left TII to go somewhere other than Majdanek and it is not clear where he went, since the camps listed either sent people to TII and the other was the camp next door at TI.

Turnagain is still left with the problem that he cannot find any documents recording mass arrivals from TII at any other camp, with the exception of 412 arriving at Majdanek.

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
OK, it is your estimate, not Eric Hunts.
Why then did you claim that it was Eric Hunt's quote and he later retracted it? Since the 12,000-15,000 wasn't even Hunt's numbers, why did you claim that he retracted it? What is your explanation for making that statement?
How do you justify estimating 12-15,000 were transported out of TII, when the only documentary evidence you have of arrivals at another camp is the 412 at Majdanek?

How does 412 magically morph into 12-15,000?
There is TESTIMONY from witnesses claiming that an estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees left T-II. There is DOCUMENTARY evidence for only 417 deportees leaving T-II. Why is that so hard to understand? Likely you do understand but are just being deliberately obtuse.
You claim 412 to Majdanek and 5 to elsewhere, but you refuse to show the documentary source for the 5. You claim it is USHMM, but I have searched the site and cannot find any.
See my above post. You have apparently not bothered to read it.
Yes I do, it is your claim, you will only accept documents, so where are they?
Please quote where I state that credible witness statements are ineligible and only documentary evidence is acceptable.
Your claim that they were not gassed, therefore they left the camp is a non sequitur.
Treblinka could not have accommodated ~850,000 people. The ~850,000 weren't steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried...etc. Therefore they left Treblinka. Some may have died in transit, at the camp or some may have been executed but the vast bulk of the deportees left the camp. That ISN'T a "non-sequitur".
Leaving the camp is not the only option. That they were gassed at the camp is the other option, and it is evidenced.
There are statements by witnesses that the deportees were steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried...etc. by witnesses that have NO credibility. You have no other believable evidence that such events occurred.
2 - There is the Warsaw Shuttle train record and Zabecki's records that document empty trains left the camp. The camp records for Theresienstadt records transports to TII, with no returns.
Precisely. You have nothing but the word of the partisan Zabecki that trains left T-II empty. He is also the fellow who claimed that a trainload of deportees was 8,000-10,000 individuals. You claim that the minimum number of trains was 394 giving a total number of deportees to T-II of 3,152,000-3,940,000. Why should anyone believe such mindless claptrap?
So, numerous documents records arrivals at TII and only one place has documents recording arrivals from TII.
Again, spot on. Arrivals at T-II are documented but, while there's testimony of deportees leaving T-II, there's documentation for only 417 leaving T-II. The complete records of even the trains outbound from T-II have vanished. Only a handful of documents show deportees left T-II. Records have been either lost or, more likely, destroyed by the Soviets.

PS. You really should read my previous post.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
OK, it is your estimate, not Eric Hunts.
Why then did you claim that it was Eric Hunt's quote and he later retracted it? Since the 12,000-15,000 wasn't even Hunt's numbers, why did you claim that he retracted it? What is your explanation for making that statement?
I was remembering from a post on TSF, which I am hunting for. I am happy for you to claim it is your figures.
How do you justify estimating 12-15,000 were transported out of TII, when the only documentary evidence you have of arrivals at another camp is the 412 at Majdanek?

How does 412 magically morph into 12-15,000?
There is TESTIMONY from witnesses claiming that an estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees left T-II. There is DOCUMENTARY evidence for only 417 deportees leaving T-II. Why is that so hard to understand? Likely you do understand but are just being deliberately obtuse.
You keep on saying that I do not have evidence, which is you really saying that you do not count that as evidence.

You have now realised that to get anywhere near your 12-15,000 figure, you need the witness evidence as well as the documents. You have also stil not shown how that figure was reached.
You claim 412 to Majdanek and 5 to elsewhere, but you refuse to show the documentary source for the 5. You claim it is USHMM, but I have searched the site and cannot find any.
See my above post. You have apparently not bothered to read it.
I have replied to your post where you linked to the 7 witnesses. You clearly did not read it properly.
Yes I do, it is your claim, you will only accept documents, so where are they?
Please quote where I state that credible witness statements are ineligible and only documentary evidence is acceptable.
You said "No, you don't have "evidence". You have testimony from witnesses that deportees were sent to Budzyn, Majdanek and Auschwitz. That's T-E-S-T-I-M-O-N-Y. You have D-O-C-U-M-E-N-T-A-T-I-O-N for a total of 417 individuals. You are simply trying to conflate the two and call it "evidence". "

You cannot claim I have no evidence and then discuss that very evidence. There is a difference between no evidence and evidence you disagree with.

You have to conflate the witness and documentary evidence to get to your 12-15,000 figure.
Your claim that they were not gassed, therefore they left the camp is a non sequitur.
Treblinka could not have accommodated ~850,000 people. The ~850,000 weren't steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried...etc. Therefore they left Treblinka. Some may have died in transit, at the camp or some may have been executed but the vast bulk of the deportees left the camp. That ISN'T a "non-sequitur".
Yes it is, because you cannot evidence c850,000 left TII to go elsewhere and it is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported and accommodated so many people without leaving any evidence.
Leaving the camp is not the only option. That they were gassed at the camp is the other option, and it is evidenced.
There are statements by witnesses that the deportees were steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried...etc. by witnesses that have NO credibility. You have no other believable evidence that such events occurred.
2 - There is the Warsaw Shuttle train record and Zabecki's records that document empty trains left the camp. The camp records for Theresienstadt records transports to TII, with no returns.
Precisely. You have nothing but the word of the partisan Zabecki that trains left T-II empty. He is also the fellow who claimed that a trainload of deportees was 8,000-10,000 individuals. You claim that the minimum number of trains was 394 giving a total number of deportees to T-II of 3,152,000-3,940,000. Why should anyone believe such mindless claptrap?
How have I "nothing but the word of ...Zabecki" when I have also pointed out the Warsaw and Thereseinstadt documented transports of people to TII without anyone returning? Stop ignoring the evidence I show you and pretending I have no evidence.

The size of the train loads varied, even Zabecki noted that various trains had different numbers of cars.
So, numerous documents records arrivals at TII and only one place has documents recording arrivals from TII.
Again, spot on. Arrivals at T-II are documented but, while there's testimony of deportees leaving T-II, there's documentation for only 417 leaving T-II. The complete records of even the trains outbound from T-II have vanished. Only a handful of documents show deportees left T-II. Records have been either lost or, more likely, destroyed by the Soviets.

PS. You really should read my previous post.
You are assuming that there were records of transports back out of TII that arrived at other camps. First you need to evidence that those people left TII. So far you have no evidence from those who worked inside TII, railway workers outside TII, anyone who was on the transports, anyone who was at the camps you say were receiving thousands of people from TII and the only place that recorded a transport from TII is Majdanek. Plus you dodge that no where was big enough to accommodate so many people.

Your hypothesis that the Soviets went through the camps and destroyed only records of arrivals from TII, or that the Nazis managed to only lose those records (with Majdanek being the exception) is nonsense. That is why you constantly dodge my point;

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

I need to highlight this claim;
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:50 pm
...
Witnesses claim that they were sent to Budzyn, Majdanek and Auschwitz. There are documents for only 412 deportees leaving Treblinka for Majdanek. ... You demand documented itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance for ~850,000 people while you have zip, zero, nada documented proof for the 12,000-15,000 deportees known to have transited through Treblinka save the 412 records found by Mattogno. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.
....
You are arguing that if only 412 records are at Majdanek for 12-15,000 deportees from TII, then it is unreasonable to ask for records of deportees from TII at other camps.

You then said;
The complete records of even the trains outbound from T-II have vanished. Only a handful of documents show deportees left T-II. Records have been either lost or, more likely, destroyed by the Soviets.
You need to evidence that somehow, the records of c850,000, except for 412 at Majdanek, have been picked out of the records of numerous camps, by either the Nazis or the Soviets and then lost or destroyed, rather than they never existed because there were no such arrivals from TII, because few people left the camp.

It does not matter how much you dodge, you need to evidence and prove that as well as mass arrivals at TII, there were also mass departures.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Eric Hunt's claims of how many transported through TII here;

https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 47#p395647

"If Hunt “finds” his “next” 15,000 Jews transited through Treblinka, it will be by the same shoddy and misleading crap he pulled to expand fewer than 3,000 Jews transferred to KLs and other camps into 10,000 Jews transited to the mythical settlements of the East."

Hunt was 10-15,000, but the actual figure is much lower than that.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
I was remembering from a post on TSF, which I am hunting for. I am happy for you to claim it is your figures.
Uh-huh, Hunt claimed that there were 12,000-15,000 deportees who left T-II but later retracted that on the Klown forum.
You keep on saying that I do not have evidence, which is you really saying that you do not count that as evidence.
Your have witness testimony for an estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees leaving T-II. You have documentary evidence for 419 deportees leaving T-II (amended from my miscounting the number of deportees from the USHMM records). You claim that only 2,000-3,000 left T-II for Budzyn and Majdanek. You've also claimed that only a few hundred left T-II and everyone else left either the penal camp at T-I or Malkinia. That was because Thaddeus Stabholz was the only witness to describe the Treblinka train station. What is your "evidence"? Is it 2,000-3,000 or only a few hundred?
You have now realised that to get anywhere near your 12-15,000 figure, you need the witness evidence as well as the documents. You have also stil not shown how that figure was reached.
Kulawy and Schwartz each testified that a trainload of deportees left T-II. Zabecki claimed that from 120-200 people were in each car for trains up to 60 cars and up to 8,000-10,000 per trainload. A more reasonable trainload would be perhaps half that at 5,000. Counting the deportees mentioned by the other witnesses and the unknown number of deportees in the USHMM records, 12,000-15,000 is a reasonable estimate.
You cannot claim I have no evidence and then discuss that very evidence.
Your have witness testimony that 12,000 to 15,000 (or 2,000-3,000) deportees left T-II. You have documentation for 419 of those deportees. You conflate the two and claim you have "evidence". Typical Nessie weasel dodge.
I wrote:
Please quote where I state that credible witness statements are ineligible and only documentary evidence is acceptable.
Nessie has no answer except for another typical weasel dodge. When are you going to quote me saying that witness statements are ineligible?
How have I "nothing but the word of ...Zabecki" when I have also pointed out the Warsaw and Thereseinstadt documented transports of people to TII without anyone returning? Stop ignoring the evidence I show you and pretending I have no evidence.
Another weasel dodge. You have NO records of the trains from Theresienstadt leaving T-II. There are records ONLY for trains leaving T-II for Warsaw. The only "records" for trains outbound from T-II is the word of the partisan Zabecki. Stop claiming that what Zabecki says is some kind of official train record/schedule for trains outbound from T-II. Your oft repeated weasel dodge doesn't fly.
You are assuming that there were records of transports back out of TII that arrived at other camps.
Since it's been proven that nobody was steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried, exhumed and cremated on the magic Jew barbeque without any fuel, it's safe to assume that the deportees went somewhere. However, until Hunt unearthed the USC film clips and Heliotis dug up the USHMM record, everyone said that nobody left T-II alive save the handful that managed to escape. Black, from the USHMM, said that nobody left T-II alive save a few who escaped. In his book, Arad claimed that nobody left T-II alive save the few who had managed to escape. Everyone else was steamed/gassed/vacuumed. Now you claim that I must provide documentation that ~850,000 left T-II or they were steamed/gassed/vacuumed. Well, except for the thousands that are now known to have left T-II. What bullshit.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:52 pm
Nessie is just going to reiterate his spurious lies about testimony and documentation. He has documentary evidence for 417 deportees leaving T-II but demands that revisionists document where the ~850,000 allegedly sent to T-II went.
The fact that any person left this place means that it was not Vernichtungslager, a pure extermination facility; the fact that thousands arrived and left means it was in reality Durchgangslager or transit camp. The figures for the Höfle telegram are up to a certain time frame which will take into account the people evicted into Soviet Territory up to that time prior to Barbarossa; the fact that other individuals in the Reich were not kept up to speed on the mass deportations is of little concern. The reality is that there was misreporting like at Ciechanow where 80 000 juden were evicted into Soviet territory but later claims being they were shot at Czerwony bor; the reality is that only a few remnants remained were dealt with and sent in fact to Auschwitz via TII.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Yes it is up to you to show sufficient evidence to prove TII was a transit camp.

All you have done is show the witness and documentary evidence that Eric Hunt used in his video. It is sufficient to prove 2-3,000 went to Majdanek.

That leaves you with another c840,000 to go. Your suggestion that the Nazis lost the rest of the documents is nonsense and doesn't explain why there no Nazi witnesses. Your suggestion that the Soviets hid or destroyed the rest of the documents is nonsense. The Soviets could not keep the Katyn hoax going even before the SU collapsed.

Then you have continually edited out my points and question about the physical impossibility of your claim. You dodged my post about the sizes of the largest camps in the east. They could not have accommodated the people from TII let alone the other AR camps.

Your argument of they were not gassed therefore they were accommodated by the Nazis for the next 2 years without leaving any evidence is a non sequitur.

It is time to wake up and face the facts.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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