Witch Trials

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:00 am
Lupus wrote:
You obviously cannot grasp what i mean by 'qualified'.
Obviously the Israeli court couldn't grasp what you mean with "qualified". They accepted Rosenberg's testimony without question. Tell us, Lupus, why you're more qualified to test the validity of a witnesses' testimony than all of the judges and lawyers at trial in Israel?
Not my problem if Eichmann's defence team didn't want to cross examine Rosenberg on how he was sure the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. If he had piped in then maybe the judges wouldn't have "accepted it without question" !

It doesn't take many qualifications to understand the fact that for anyone to be 100% certain of the hermetically sealed condition of the gas chamber, they would have to demonstrate how they knew - ie did they carry out an inspection ? Was it from hearsay ? Was it guess based on other factors ? Problem is for you, you might thing this specific issue was masively important to the Eichmann trial , but the truth is the judges weren't really bothered about a relatively minor detail. They were probably aware of hermetically sealed doors, so who cares if a witness thought the whole gas chamber was sealed too ? Only you, i'm afraid :lol:


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Trolljegeren
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Trolljegeren »

Hermetic sealing means to stop gas like a cap on a beer bottle. One cannot have a partial hermetic seal.
This has all been said before. Old stuff being brought up.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Here is a quote from the Kues article at the CODOH site:
Kjellander’s statement is confirmed by data we have on the firewood consumption of traditional Hindu funeral pyres: according to these, between 300 and 600 kg of firewood is required to cremate a single body.[16]
Kues makes the statement that the magic Jew barbeque could be slightly more efficient than the traditional Hindu method of cremation. In fact, it's more inefficient. As the fire burns down, the heat source becomes further away from the corpse so is less efficient than the body maintaining contact with the heat source.

Both Mattogno and the nutzoid try to calculate the amount of wood necessary to cremate a body that has been buried for an unknown length of time but ignore the fact of the amount of wood needed for a cremation in India. As far as where the up to 200,000 bodies came from that weren't buried, Wiernik states that transports of deportees continued to arrive at Treblinka at least through June of 1943. In addition, there's one witness who claimed that the cremations began in August of 1942. No, I don't recall his name at the moment but that was his testimony. Whether the cremations began in August of 1942 or March of 1943 doesn't matter. There were still plenty of bodies to be cremated who hadn't been buried. Here is a quote from Wiernik, "A Year in Treblinka":
The new transports were handled in a simplified manner; the cremation followed directly after the gassing. Transports were now arriving from Bulgaria, comprising well-to-do people who brought with them large supplies of food: white bread, smoked mutton, cheese, etc. They were killed off just like all the others, but we benefited from the supplies they had brought. As a result, our diet improved considerably. The Bulgarian Jews were strong and husky specimens. Looking at them, it was hard to believe that in 20 minutes they would all be dead in the gas chambers.
Wiernik's "The Bulgarian Jews were strong and husky specimens" knocks the nutzoid's theory that all of the Jews were undersized starvelings into a cocked hat. The magic Jew barbeque, whether 30 meters or 150 meters long, remains a fantasy.

As far as your "read it and weep" comment, the wick effect occurs when the victim is in contact with carpet or charred wood. That wasn't the case with the magic Jew barbeque.

No the two grates in the Laponder model don't show a trench under the grates. Neither do they show any substantial quantities of wood being used as fuel. In any event, the nutzoid refers to a pit with trench dug into the bottom. The rails are laid across the trench which is filled with fuel. That was just an experiment carried out at the turn of the century. How were the ashes extracted and the trench/pit reloaded? Oh, that's right, we aren't supposed to pay any attention to that. BTW, in his book Wiernik claims that the magic Jew barbeques were 100 to 150 meters long. Oh, that's right, grates is grates, graves is graves and the gas chamber can't be a vacuum chamber because that bollixes up the fairy tale.

Then we come back to Wiernik and his hermetic cap. Lupus posits that the vent was covered when not in use. If that were the case, why would the cap have to be hermetic? Why couldn't the vent be shielded from the weather in the conventional manner?

Well, enough for now. More later.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
It doesn't take many qualifications to understand the fact that for anyone to be 100% certain of the hermetically sealed condition of the gas chamber, they would have to demonstrate how they knew - ie did they carry out an inspection ? Was it from hearsay ? Was it guess based on other factors ? Problem is for you, you might thing this specific issue was masively important to the Eichmann trial , but the truth is the judges weren't really bothered about a relatively minor detail. They were probably aware of hermetically sealed doors, so who cares if a witness thought the whole gas chamber was sealed too ? Only you, i'm afraid
Only you, Lupus, claim to know that ALL of the eyewitnesses were unqualified to observe that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. That applies especially to the six witnesses who said that the gas chamber also functioned as a vacuum chamber. Do you have any proof that the witnesses were wrong and didn't know their arse from their elbow about gas chambers? What standard do you claim other than the witnesses' statements bollix up the fairy tale? Let's see a little proof of your opinion, Lupus.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Trolljegeren »

Topic called "Witch Trials" but the conversation is back to hermetic seals and firewood. The only thing missing are draglines and of course Nessie. I guess we will have to wait for "where did they go".

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Trolljegeren wrote:
Topic called "Witch Trials" but the conversation is back to hermetic seals and firewood. The only thing missing are draglines and of course Nessie. I guess we will have to wait for "where did they go".
There weren't any gas/vacuum chambers, giant mass graves or any magic Jew barbeque at Treblinka. I know that, you know that but Asher wants to argue about it. He doesn't have much of an argument beyond stamping his feet and shrieking, "It isn't so" but there it is. (shrug)
Edit: Here's just one example of Asher lying.
Glazar made two major errors in his book. First, Glazar wrote that the Germans started to burn the corpses “one overcast November afternoon” in 1942.[12] This statement contradicts the standard Holocaust literature, which claims the incineration of corpses did not start until March/April 1943.[13]

Second, Glazar said that he was part of a camouflage unit that performed forestry work in the vicinity of Treblinka. Glazar wrote:

"The camouflage unit is the only one of the old work squads that still has enough real work to do…Several times a day…some part of the 25-man unit has to go out into the forest, climb into the trees, harvest large branches, and carry them back into the camp, where they will be used for repairs. The other part of the unit straightens and firms up the posts, tightens the barbed wire, and weaves the new pine boughs into the fence until there are no longer any gaps in the dense green wall."
Source: http://www.renegadetribune.com/?s=testimony+of+glazar

Asher very carefully cherry picks his claims/quotes.

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
Here is a quote from the Kues article at the CODOH site:
Kjellander’s statement is confirmed by data we have on the firewood consumption of traditional Hindu funeral pyres: according to these, between 300 and 600 kg of firewood is required to cremate a single body.[16]
Kues makes the statement that the magic Jew barbeque could be slightly more efficient than the traditional Hindu method of cremation. In fact, it's more inefficient. As the fire burns down, the heat source becomes further away from the corpse so is less efficient than the body maintaining contact with the heat source.

Both Mattogno and the nutzoid try to calculate the amount of wood necessary to cremate a body that has been buried for an unknown length of time but ignore the fact of the amount of wood needed for a cremation in India.
The traditional Hindu method of cremation is not a fuel efficient system, hence the reason why changes were called for in India and hence Muehlenkamp included one of the new systems in his evidence which was included in the link I gave you, called the Mokshda Green Cremation System. Here is the original article from Muelhenkamp again :
e) The Mokshda Green Cremation System, an innovative device introduced in India for human funeral pyres with the express objective of considerably reducing fuel consumption.[108] The description suggests that it’s a rather simple device, and an open-air pyre rather than a cremation oven[109]. It should also be noted that its inventor, Vinod Kumar Agarwal, thinks it should be possible to burn a human body with no more than 22 kg of wood (ratio assuming a body weight of 70 kg as Mattogno does: 0.31 to 1), and that he managed with 100 kg per body (ratio: 1.43 to 1) using the "raised human size brazier" he unsuccessfully (obviously not because of its efficiency but because it failed to gain acceptance among tradition-minded Hindus) tried to introduce in 1993. An essential feature of this brazier was its elevation, which "allowed air to circulate and feed the fire".[110]
And here is Muelenkamp's follow up after Freidrich Jannson decided to protest ( unsuccesfully ) :
Except that traditional Hindu cremation of human corpses is not exactly a fuel-efficient method, as pointed out by the sources referred to in the footnotes of my example e), the Mokshda Green Cremation System:
Estimating that it should only take about 44 pounds (22 kilograms) of wood to cremate the average body (as opposed to the excessive 880 pounds, or 440 kilograms, typically consumed in a 6 hour long formal Hindu cremation), he built his first pyre in 1993, an elevated brazier (i.e. a metal pan or cooking device) under a roof with slats to maintain the heat, which allowed air to circulate and feed the fire. (More Eco-Friendly Funeral Pyres Introduced in India)


In traditional Hindu cremations, the body is placed atop a pile of wood. The corpse is then covered with more wood and burned in the open air. Mokshda says this method requires as much as 880 pounds of wood to burn a single corpse (though the wood porters in Varanasi say the amount is closer to 600 pounds), a process that can take as long as six hours. (Hindus urged to adopt 'green' cremation)


Alarmed by the fuel-intensive nature of the funeral rites of Hindus who practise open-air cremation using firewood, an environmental group in New Delhi is promoting a new, more eco-friendly pyre.(New ‘green’ pyre to cool planet while burning India’s dead)


NEW DELHI: Over 40 million trees are consumed annually in the conventional Hindu system of cremation, leading to the denudation of 1,500-2,000 sq km of forests. It also results in the emission of 7.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, adding to global warming and polluting surroundings with suspended particulate matter.
Theoretically speaking, only 22 kg of firewood is required for the disposal of a body but practically 400-600 kg is used. Mokshda Paryavaran Evan Van Suraksha Samiti, a non-governmental organisation (NGO), which gathered the statistics, has devised an environmental-friendly cremation system. (Making funeral pyres eco-friendly)
So, the evidence you have presented is invalid, and out of date. And you are wrong to say Muelenkamp IGNORED the Indian evidence !




Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
As far as where the up to 200,000 bodies came from that weren't buried, Wiernik states that transports of deportees continued to arrive at Treblinka at least through June of 1943. In addition, there's one witness who claimed that the cremations began in August of 1942. No, I don't recall his name at the moment but that was his testimony. Whether the cremations began in August of 1942 or March of 1943 doesn't matter. There were still plenty of bodies to be cremated who hadn't been buried. Here is a quote from Wiernik, "A Year in Treblinka":

The new transports were handled in a simplified manner; the cremation followed directly after the gassing. Transports were now arriving from Bulgaria, comprising well-to-do people who brought with them large supplies of food: white bread, smoked mutton, cheese, etc. They were killed off just like all the others, but we benefited from the supplies they had brought. As a result, our diet improved considerably. The Bulgarian Jews were strong and husky specimens. Looking at them, it was hard to believe that in 20 minutes they would all be dead in the gas chambers.
You have failed to prove that 250,000 Jews were transported to Treblinka in 1943. All you do is talk about Bulgarian deportees without even giving the numbers. Well, you might be interested to learn that only 11,000 Bulgarians were deported, in March 1943. So again you're just quoting peanut figures again.
Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
Wiernik's "The Bulgarian Jews were strong and husky specimens" knocks the nutzoid's theory that all of the Jews were undersized starvelings into a cocked hat. The magic Jew barbeque, whether 30 meters or 150 meters long, remains a fantasy.
Really ? So we have 11,000 fresh Bulgarian Jews vs 700,000 decomposing Jews. Oh dear, :? :?
Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
As far as your "read it and weep" comment, the wick effect occurs when the victim is in contact with carpet or charred wood. That wasn't the case with the magic Jew barbeque.
No it doesnt, as also demonstrated in the other experiment that I linked you to where the Sheep was suspended on the seat springs and the fat dripped down onto the charr and ash. The person who carried out this experiment even included the following comment in his write up of results :
Some related information was found in an article concerning a Nazi extermination camp and its trouble destroying the corpses (3). Burning gasoline on piles of corpses on the ground did not consume the corpses. Eventually an "expert" was brought in who arranged the bodies on a rack with the corpses that appeared to contain some fat being placed on the bottom of the pile. A good fire beneath the rack caused fat to drip down and burn. The corpses which were thus over the fire instead of on the ground were reduced to ashes.[121]
So sorry Turnagain, but your claims have been demolished, again .

Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
No the two grates in the Laponder model don't show a trench under the grates. Neither do they show any substantial quantities of wood being used as fuel.


Blatant denial in operation here There is a clear 'ridge' under the rails which means there is a trench. It is NOT on level ground. Here it is again, highlighted by the arrows :

Image

A fair amount of wood can also be seen under the other rails, which you pretend you cannot see.
Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
In any event, the nutzoid refers to a pit with trench dug into the bottom. The rails are laid across the trench which is filled with fuel. That was just an experiment carried out at the turn of the century. How were the ashes extracted and the trench/pit reloaded? Oh, that's right, we aren't supposed to pay any attention to that. BTW, in his book Wiernik claims that the magic Jew barbeques were 100 to 150 meters long. Oh, that's right, grates is grates, graves is graves and the gas chamber can't be a vacuum chamber because that bollixes up the fairy tale.


Yep, a trench as shown in the laponder model and confirmed by witnesses. Fuel was poured over the wood, also confirmed by witnesses. Why are you protesting about the date of the experiment ? So what if it was the turn of the century ? Your hindu creamtions have been going longer than that but it didnt stop you presenting it , not as though it helped you in any way . The ashes just fell onto the wood, helping the wick effect. So whats your problem here ? The rest of your post is just the usual moaning about vaccums and sizes,so they will be ignored as already dealt with.
Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
Then we come back to Wiernik and his hermetic cap. Lupus posits that the vent was covered when not in use. If that were the case, why would the cap have to be hermetic? Why couldn't the vent be shielded from the weather in the conventional manner?

Well, enough for now. More later.
It didnt have to be hermetic, but as long as it did the job then who cares ?

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 am
Both Mattogno and the nutzoid try to calculate the amount of wood necessary to cremate a body that has been buried for an unknown length of time but ignore the fact of the amount of wood needed for a cremation in India.
Crestone, Colorado is the only place where open-air cremations are legal in the United States. A funeral pyre is one of the world’s oldest cremation traditions. A body is placed upon a structure packed with flammable materials and ignited. The pyre is designed to burns at a very hot temperature in order to reduce a human body to a few pounds of ashes. Pyres are used for the cremation in Hinduism & Sikhism. Vikings disposed of their dead with funeral pyres.

They use a half-cord of wood for this purpose. (64cu ft) or 5 trees 8 inches in diameter. This is 1500 pounds of wood or 680kg per corpse. This means that the 850 000 people at Treblinka for instance would need 578 thousand tonne of wood; this is a major issue to obtain in peacetime let alone in war time. Wood will not burn well when wet so there must be a drying time.
There is no point in discussing with this this individual and it has been done to death. No matter how much protests there is no evidence of that volume of wood being felled in the area or brought in. That aside burning is no more effective that composting.

Train loads of dead did arrive and may have been cremated on a grill due to their diseased status.


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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
So, the evidence you have presented is invalid, and out of date. And you are wrong to say Muelenkamp IGNORED the Indian evidence!
The nutzoids THEORETICAL 22 kg of wood to cremate a body is bullshit. The "green cremation" device uses about one third as much fuel as a traditional Hindu cremation or about 300 lbs of wood. Here's the article with photos of the green device.
www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/05/ ... -cremation

Kues wrote:
Glazar wrote that the Germans started to burn the corpses “one overcast November afternoon” in 1942.[12]
Glazar says that the cremations began in November, 1942. Others claim that the cremations didn't begin until early in 1943. The Hofle telegram says that 713,555 Jews were sent to Treblinka by December 31, 1942. That's 31,714 Jews per week. If the cremations began in mid November, then about 190,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated without being buried in 1942. That's according to Glazar.
You have failed to prove that 250,000 Jews were transported to Treblinka in 1943.
Nice little strawman, Lupus. I didn't try to prove that 250,000 Jews were sent to Treblinka in 1943. It's claimed that as many as 950,000 were murdered at Treblinka. It's also claimed that 850,000 and 870,000 were murdered while Rajchman first claimed 1.3 million and Ehrenberg went for three million. According to the Holfle telegram, 712,555 were sent to Treblinka by December 31, 1942 which leaves 236,445 being sent to Treblinka in 1943. If 850,000 were sent we have a range of 136,445 to 236,445 Jews sent to Treblinka in 1943 and were presumably gassed and cremated without being buried.
So sorry Turnagain, but your claims have been demolished, again .
That's tiresome, Lupus. Fat dripping down on a fire doesn't constitute the wick effect. Then there's the fact that only two bodies were burned to death in the car fire. Well, and a sheep in the experiment. None of that is the equivalent of piling 2,000 to 3,000 bodies on a grate, setting them ablaze with some kindling and letting them cremate themselves. Cremations of culled animals in England involved laying down lots of fuel such as railroad sleepers, tires and straw and putting a single layer of carcasses on the fuel. Your claim that the wick effect accounted for the cremations at Treblinka is a bust. Try again.
Blatant denial in operation here There is a clear 'ridge' under the rails which means there is a trench.
Blatant bullshit in operation here. Look at the ends of the grates. No trench and no "ridge" showing on the near grate. Not much fuel in evidence, either. As a side note, both the Laponder model and the Wiernik model show single cone stockpiles of excavated material. That's another impossibility. It didn't happen with the M&H draglines performing the excavations. That's a "twofer" for impossibilities in one photo. It's a "threefer" if you count Wiernik's initial claim that the magic Jew barbeque was 100 - 150 meters long.
A fair amount of wood can also be seen under the other rails, which you pretend you cannot see.
Nope, I don't see an amount of wood necessary to cremate up to 3,000 bodies anywhere in the model.
Yep, a trench as shown in the laponder model and confirmed by witnesses. Fuel was poured over the wood, also confirmed by witnesses.
The model doesn't even come close to the description given for the turn of the century experiments. Some witnesses claim that liquid fuel was poured on the kindling, others say not. Cherry pick your quotes much, Lupus?
It didnt have to be hermetic, but as long as it did the job then who cares ?
If the vent was hermetically sealed and the doors hermetically sealed then the alleged gas chamber was hermetically sealed. Pump exhaust from an IC engine into the chamber and it will fail from the pressure differential. Pump the air out of the chamber and it will fail for the same reason.

All of your Rube Goldberg contraptions along with the mass graves and exhumations are a bust, Lupus.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Huntinger »

3000 bodies constitute a mass of 195 tonne of which 140 tonne is water. Water evaporates at 2442000 kJ/tonne or 2442 mJ.
140 tonne needs 244,200mJ of energy. Forget there are bodies in this, this is pure physics; nothing can burn until the water goes. Oven-dry woody biomass typically has a calorific value of 19 MJ per kg at 100% efficiency. Open fires like described are only 15% efficient so the available energy is 2.85MJ per kg of wood.
The amount of wood to vapourize 140 tonne of water is 244,200/2.85= 85,684 kg of wood or 86 tonne. 28.5 kg per corpse just to evaporate the water before cremation. If the poster wishes to try the "wick effect"; the average corpse or body had 6% lipids or 4.2 kg. Taking into account the water proportion try mixing 4.2g of oil to 10 g of water, mix it with some surfactant (detergent), add a wick and tell us if there is a wick effect. I think not. 40% ethanol and water will burn but certainly not 6 percent fat and water.
Sadly for the hoaxer poster a few twigs will not cut mustard.


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