Mass pyres, how did they work?

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Turnagain
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Stop lying that the bodies were "cremated with no fuel".
The only witnesses I can find say that the bodies were set on fire with kindling. That was "twigs", "brush" and "brushwood with gasoline thrown on it". Name the witness who claimed that wood was used to cremate the bodies, quote him or give a source. Wood was simply the means of ignition and Wiernik didn't even claim wood for that. Then we have your 30% body fat which verges on the fat content of the near obese. From the photos, it didn't look like there were many obese people coming out of the ghettos. Claiming that wood was the fuel that was used to cremate the cadavers is the lie.

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Nessie
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:38 am
Nessie wrote:
Stop lying that the bodies were "cremated with no fuel".
The only witnesses I can find say that the bodies were set on fire with kindling. That was "twigs", "brush" and "brushwood with gasoline thrown on it". Name the witness who claimed that wood was used to cremate the bodies, quote him or give a source. Wood was simply the means of ignition and Wiernik didn't even claim wood for that. Then we have your 30% body fat which verges on the fat content of the near obese. From the photos, it didn't look like there were many obese people coming out of the ghettos. Claiming that wood was the fuel that was used to cremate the cadavers is the lie.
I have not been saying that wood cremated the bodies. You obviously do not understand how a fire pit works. The wood is used to set the bodies on fire. Firstly, the wood is set on fire. That wood, with its oxygen supply, will end up as embers burning at over 1000 degrees. That is a sufficient source of heat to then set the bodies on fire.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html

"Heinrich Gley
I was assigned with a big Jewish work brigade to the cremation of the corpses by means of railway lines which served as a grate. About 80-90 Jews then worked under my supervision in three shifts.
The rails were placed on top of big rocks and narrow gauge rails served as a cross-mesh. The cremation surface could take about 200 corpses. First a wood fire was kindled under the iron grate.
During the course of the cremation operation the corpses later served as the only fuel. From time to time the badly twisted rails had to be replaced by new ones."

All that was needed was enough wood to set the bodies on fire. Once the bodies were on fire, the 20-30% fat content of the bodies was enough for them to burn. It does not matter that you doubt that, it is what is evidenced to have happened.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Nessie »

A German SS officer, a Ukrainian SS guard and a Jewish Polish prisoner all agree on how the pyres worked.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... er_18.html

"SS Oberscharführer Heinrich Matthes, the commander of the “extermination area”, testified:

«At that time SS Oberscharführer or Hauptscharführer [Herbert] Floss, who, as I assume, was previously in another extermination camp, arrived. He was in charge of the arrangements for cremating the corpses. The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol. In that way not only the newly accumulated corpses were cremated, but also those taken out from the graves.»
[…]
Between 2,000 and 2,500 bodies – sometimes up to 3,000 – would be piled on the roaster. When all was ready, dry wood and branches, which had been laid under the roaster, were ignited. The entire construction, with the bodies, was quickly engulfed in fire. The railings would glow from the heat, and the flames would reach a height of up to 10 meters.
At first an inflammable liquid was poured onto the bodies to help them burn, but later this was considered unnecessary; the SS men in charge of the cremation became convinced that the corpses burned well enough without extra fuel."

"Yechiel Reichman, a member of the “burning group”, writes:

«The SS “expert” on body burning ordered us to put women, particularly fat women, on the first layer of the grill, face down. The second layer could consist of whatever was brought – men, women, or children – and so on, layer on top of layer … Then the “expert” ordered us to lay dry branches under the grill and to light them. Within a few minutes the fire would take so it was difficult to approach the crematorium from as far as 50 meters away … The work was extremely difficult. The stench was awful. Liquid excretions from the corpses squirted all over the prisoner-workers. The SS man operating the excavator often dumped the corpses directly onto the prisoners working nearly, wounding them seriously …»
[…]
The bodies of victims brought to Treblinka in transports arriving after the body-burning began were taken directly from the gas chambers to the roasters and were not buried in the ditches. These bodies did not burn as well as those removed from the ditches and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn.
The body-burning went on day and night. The corpses were transferred and arranged on the roasters during the day; at nightfall they were lit, and they burned throughout the night. When the fire went out, there were only skeletons or scattered bones on the roasters, and piles of ash underneath."


"...former Ukrainian guards of Treblinka extermination camp, Pavel Vladimirovich Leleko, described the structure as follows:

An incinerator from the burning of bodies was situated about 10 meters beyond the large gas chamber building. It had the shape of a cement pit about one meter deep and 20 meters long. A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit. The bodies were laid on the rails, caught fire from the flames burning in the furnaces and burned. About 1000 bodies were burned simultaneously. The burning process lasted up to five hours."
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
All that was needed was enough wood to set the bodies on fire. Once the bodies were on fire, the 20-30% fat content of the bodies was enough for them to burn. It does not matter that you doubt that, it is what is evidenced to have happened.
It does not matter that all of the science and practical experience in the world shows what you claim to have happened is an impossibility. It happened therefore it was possible. The witnesses said so. So there!

That's irrational but not unusual for your holyhoax claims. Believing such preposterous lies isn't rational either. So it goes in holyhoax land.

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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Turnagain »

Human bodies aren't combustible. You can't just set them on fire and leave them to burn. Your "witnesses" are describing a physical impossibility and you expect us to believe them. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Nessie
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:12 am
Human bodies aren't combustible.
They will burn if subjected to 1000 degrees of heat, fat is very combustible and makes up 20-30% of bodies.
You can't just set them on fire and leave them to burn.
You can on a massive fire pit with the heat generated by the burning wood and fat.
Your "witnesses" are describing a physical impossibility and you expect us to believe them. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
According to you, it is impossible to do something that is evidenced to have happened and we should believe in something that is not evidenced.

It is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported, accommodated, fed and clothed over 1.24 million people by the end of 1942, without leaving any evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Norm
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Norm »

Nessie:
It is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported, accommodated, fed and clothed over 1.24 million people by the end of 1942, without leaving any evidence.

Image

I, _?_ (full legal - VERIFIALBE - name),

am so confident that the Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka II "holocausts" happened - as alleged in orthodox historiography,
and that the "eyewitness" testimony for said "holocausts within the holocaust" - constitutes credible evidence,
and that the investigations of said "holocaust" camps in search of empirical evidence - were valid,
that I am willing to bet Greg Gerdes _?_ (choose one):


1: $ .o6 US

2: $ .60 US

3: $ 6.00 US

4: $ 60.00 US

5: $ 600.00 US

6: $ 6,666.66 US


that I can show him the evidence which proves _?_ (list all that apply):


1: With 100% certainty

2: Beyond a shadow of a doubt

3: With the utmost certainty

4: With the same standard of proof espoused by Michael Shermer and the so-called "Skeptics" Society

5: With the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts

6: With the same standard of proof applied in U.S. civil courts

7: With the same standard of proof applied in German Federal Republic courts

8: With the same standard of proof applied at Nuremberg


that at _?_ (choose one):

1: Belzec

2: Sobibor

3: Treblinka II


no less than (choose as many as apply):


_?_ people were dead on arrival at the camp.

_?_ people (internees) actually set foot (dead or alive) within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people were murdered within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people died by means of poison gas within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people died by means of a bullet wound received within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people were buried (as whole corpses) within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ corpses "in a wax-fat transformation" currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people were cremated within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ pounds of human cremains were buried within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ pounds of human remains currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ human teeth currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ bullets currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ pits / ditches alleged by the eyewitnesses to have been dug and utilized as burning / cremation - pits / ditches have actually been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ of the above said verified eyewitnessed burning / cremation - pits / ditches within the boundary of the camp currently contain human remains.

_?_ pits / ditches alleged by the eyewitnesses to have been dug and utilized as mass graves have actually been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ of the above said verified eyewitnessed mass graves within the boundary of the camp currently contain human remains.

_?_ scientific reports detailing the forensic analysis of remains located within the boundary of the camp were completed.


Furthermore, because I want to do all I can to put an end to holocaust denial, I agree to challenge Greg Gerdes to accept this wager no later than _?_/_?_/_?_, and agree that if I refuse to answer a question or get caught lying during our debate - I lose the bet.

As well, I accept and acknowledge that the option of demanding that both sides prove to each other that they have the ways and means to make good on the amount that I chose to bet above is mine - which I _?_ (choose - or - do not choose) to invoke.

Remember:

What kind of self-deceiving coward calls a skeptic of their unsubstantiated allegations a

“denier” - yet is unwilling to bet that they can prove what they so vehemently allege is true?

(One cannot “deny” something that does not exist or that has never been proven to be true.)

http://www.nafcash.com/

Image


What are you waiting for Robessie?

What are you so afraid of?
In some circumstances it can be rationally assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be easily discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of evidence of its occurrence as proof of its non-occurrence.
Such is the case for the fraudulently alleged holocaust mass graves: No graves = No holocaust - simple as that.

Werd
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:38 am
the evidence that they were gassed, buried and cremated is the only alternative that is evidenced.
Because the revisionists can't track every Jew, that somehow, as a matter of deductive logic in a syllogism, proves the gas chambers correct. Sorry, non sequitor. If that's not what you're arguing, then what I just quoted you as saying is basically no point. Either way, you lose.
There is evidence of cremations,
The scoundrel hides in vague language and forsakes quantifying anything with numbers. Because he can't show cremation remains of 700,000 Jews.
from witnesses
Who were all too eager to tell us about flammable blood and bodies burning in pits without wood. Or about the false colours of freshly gassed corpses. But somehow they couldn't tell us how all that wood came in and where it came from.
and physical evidence found at the camp.
Hiding in vague language again because he can't prove cremation remains to the tune of 700,000. As I said, this is his only argument:

I can't find the Jews. Therefore...

Werd
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:51 am

I did quantify what has been found, at least 2 hectares of buried cremated remains was identified in 1945 and even in 2011, walkover surveys and excavations that were trying to avoid disturbing cremains, found more cremains.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SURFACE AREA WHICH ALLEGEDLY HAD ONE PART THAT WAS 7 METERS DEEP. WHAT IS THE OVERALL VOLUME OF THE CREMATION REMAINS?

It is impossible for 100,000s of people to have left the AR camps, without leaving any evidence or anyone noticing.
That's exactly what's under debate regarding Sobibor. Hold on while I get my reference that I posted years ago multiple times THAT YOU IGNORED AND ARE APPARENTLY NOW PRETENDING TO NOT REMEMBER!
"Sobibor." Mattogno, Graf, Kues.

Finally we come to the “evidence” that “no-one ever came out alive.” The problem of this argument becomes evident by even a cursory glance at the various maps of Sobibór. The most “correct” map,239drawn by Bill Rutherford in 2002 and partially based on air photos, shows that the northern, eastern, and western borders of the vaguely trapezoidal camp III area hardly could have been observed from other parts of the camp. This means that deloused deportees could have left camp III unnoticed by inmates in camp I and II. Interestingly, the Rutherford map shows a sort of passage leading from the northeast corner of camp III through the forest in the general direction of the main railroad. 240

239
Online: http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/pic/bmap21.jpg

240
It should be pointed out here that the trains bound for the east may have departed from the main railroad, rather than the sidespur leading into the camp. According to Jan Piwonski, who worked at the Sobibór station, the Chelm-Wlodawa line saw little traffic, and thus such embarkations were feasible; Jan Piwonski, op.cit (note 221). The 1942 timetable of the railways in the General Government shows that there were four trains per day on this line, in each direction; cf. Kurzbuch Polen 1942 (Generalgouvernment), Verlag Josef Otto Slezak, Vienna 1984, p. 118.
Next!
Witnesses who are corroborated by the physical evidence of cremated remains consistent with cremations, ground disturbances consistent with graves, the remains of a building that matches the description of one of the gas chambers and documents showing mass arrivals.
You already admitted cremation remains that have not been fully quantified in and of themselves, DON'T PROVE GAS CHAMBERS. CREMATION REMAINS ARE CONSISTENT WITH A REVISIONIST HYPOTHESIS OF HEALTH MEASURES SO STOP ACTING LIKE THIS PROVES ANYTHING. IF YOU WANT GAS CHAMBERS, FIND ME THE GAS CHAMBERS.

You have not shown me any evidence that there is only a small amount of cremains at the camp.
Don't shift the burden of proof. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE OF CREMATION REMAINS OF 700,000 CORPSES?

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Nessie
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Re: Mass pyres, how did they work?

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:41 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:38 am
the evidence that they were gassed, buried and cremated is the only alternative that is evidenced.
Because the revisionists can't track every Jew, that somehow, as a matter of deductive logic in a syllogism, proves the gas chambers correct.
Wrong. That is not my argument. You have been repeatedly told what my argument is, here it is again;

1 - gassings are evidenced by mutiple witnesses backed by suppporting, corroborating evidence.
2 - mass departures are not evidenced and could not have happened without leaving any evidence.
3 - therefore we can deduce from what is evidenced, that gassings are what happened.
Sorry, non sequitor. If that's not what you're arguing, then what I just quoted you as saying is basically no point. Either way, you lose.
You dishonestly ignore that 1, gassings are evidenced and you lie that my argument is that because of 2, therefore 3. Because you cannot cope with my 1,2,3 argument, you lie and turn it into a 2,3 argument.
There is evidence of cremations,
The scoundrel hides in vague language and forsakes quantifying anything with numbers. Because he can't show cremation remains of 700,000 Jews.
from witnesses
Who were all too eager to tell us about flammable blood and bodies burning in pits without wood. Or about the false colours of freshly gassed corpses. But somehow they couldn't tell us how all that wood came in and where it came from.
That is where you cherry pick only some of what some of the witnesses said. You ignore the majority of the witnesses (especially the Nazis) and what they said.
and physical evidence found at the camp.
Hiding in vague language again because he can't prove cremation remains to the tune of 700,000.
Proof that c850,000 were sent to the camp and proof of an area of cremains that extends to over 2 hectares and up to 7m deep, is very good corroborative evidence of witness claims of mass pyres of at least 700,000 corpses.
As I said, this is his only argument:

I can't find the Jews. Therefore...
Lie. Gassings, burials and cremations are evidenced. Mass departures are not evidenced.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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