Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

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Roberto
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Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:30 pm

Hi everybody, and welcome back the CODOH Memory Hole Festival. I've been absent since 19 September due to lack of posting time (unlike reformed old folks like "Hannover" et al I have a job and a life, and the former has been quite a hustle in the past two months). But now it has slowed down a bit and I have some time to continue showing how the CODOH moderator makes a mockery of the "open debate" that the CODOH forum is supposed to offer.

The first thread documenting CODOH censorship has been locked because Scott (rightly) got tired of all the spam and personal attacks that interfered with my documentation of CODOH censorship. So I opened up this thread to continue said documentation.

When I left the count of censored posts stood as 152. Yesterday further posts, all on the thread with the hilariously mendacious and silly title Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania, were added to the list after I posted on that thread a four-part series about "Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary". These posts will be reproduced hereafter.

Censored CODOH post # 153

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania.

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"

Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. dodging challenges.

Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:09 am
Comment:

The usual mendacious pretext of "dodging", yawn.

Apart from the fact that the "Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary" series presents what documentation about physical evidence of the Ponary killings I'm aware of, one cannot conceivably dodge "challenges" that are completely idiotic - in this case the challenge to provide proof (especially or exclusively by means of visual material, namely photographs of excavations and exhumations) of 100,000 corpses (a number a I don't remember having claimed to be realistic, by the way) at the Ponary killing site near Vilnius. Even if the corpses of people murdered there had not been mostly reduced to cremation remains (as they were), they could not all have been exhumed due to their very number, and even if they had all been exhumed (as was done regarding the corpses of smaller Nazi mass killings and the Soviet massacre at Katyn), visual documentation couldn't be reasonably expected to cover more than a fraction of the exhumed corpses.

As I mentioned in one of the censored "Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary" posts, the German Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn, which is held up by "Revisionists" as the gold standard of a complete and thorough mass murder documentation, is about 340 pages long and contains the names (as far as they could be established) of all 4,143 exhumed victims of this Soviet killing. However, in the Bilddokumente section at the end of the report, which contains 57 photographs, one sees about 400 corpses at most by my count, assuming that no two photos show the same corpses (which is unlikely). "Revisionist" demands that so-and-so many corpses of people killed by forces of Nazi Germany and/or its European allies be "shown" are thus implying that the Katyn massacre's death toll was but one-tenth of what it was found to have been. Most of the "Amtliches Material" consists of the names (as far as they could be established) of the murdered Polish servicemen, written reports (including such by forensic medics), related eyewitness testimonies, correspondence and press publications. The 57 Bilddokumente attached to the report are clearly meant not to show all exhumed corpses or even a large part thereof, but merely to illustrate what becomes apparent from the preceding documentation.

In the German documentary film Im Wald von Katyn, one sees a large number of corpses, but again just a fraction of all corpses found at Katyn. Besides, one can also see a large number of corpses in Soviet, British or American film sequences of equal length showing victims of Nazi crimes, such as some sequences of the Nuremberg trial Soviet documentary The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR, which contains selected scenes from a number of selected Nazi crime sites (parts of the film as shown at Nuremberg can be seen here), or of the US Army documentary about Nazi Concentration and Prison Camps. In this context it should be taken into account that, while the Germans could focus all their attention on the two Soviet killing sites at which they conducted an extensive investigation (Katyn and Vinnytsia), the Soviets and the Western Allies had a huge number of Nazi camps or (other) killing sites to document, and often much larger ones at that - which is why, as pointed out here, wholesale excavations of mass graves and corpse exhumations were the exception in Soviet crime site investigations, whereas estimates based on the established size of the mass graves (with considerable margins of error) were the rule. To get an idea of what a complete documentation of mass graves containing less than 2,000 bodies would entail, one only has to watch the sequence from 3:27 to 4:29 of this documentary. The filmmaker could obviously have spent much more filming time in showing skeletons laid bare in just the first layer of the graves excavated at Busk. The filmmaker understandably considered other information more interesting.

Bottom line, the number of bodies or amount of human remains visible in photographs or films is no criterion to go by when it comes to documenting mass murder. Only an idiot would demand that a mass crime (especially one with five or six digit victim numbers) be proven by visual documentation. Only an idiot would claim that this can be done. Any such idiot should be called upon to collect all known photographs and films showing military servicemen or civilians killed during World War II, and add up the bodies visible in all this visual material, under the (unrealistic) assumption that no two photographs or film stills show the same corpses. Such addition is likely to yield a low five-digit number at most - out of at least about 50 million people who lost their lives during World War II.

Only marginally less silly, and equally counterproductive, is the "Revisionist" demand that every Nazi mass crime be proven by documentation as thorough as the "Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn", including expert reports signed by neutral observers. If such documentation were what it takes to prove mass murder beyond a reasonable doubt, the Stalinist regime's killing record would be reduced to just the 4,143 deaths at Katyn documented in the "Amtliches Material", or to just the 4,143+9,432 = 13,575 corpses exhumed at Katyn and Vinnytsia. By demanding such standards of proof Hitler's willing defense attorneys also make themselves into the most brazen and vehement apologists of Stalin's regime that one can think of.

That said, here's the reproduction of my censored CODOH post # 153.
Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary
Part 1

Whatever can be said against the world’s foremost Revisionist scholar, Carlo Mattogno, it’s not that he doesn’t provide lots of evidence regarding NS crimes. This makes his books a useful (though far from complete) collection of evidentiary sources, if you only ignore Mattogno’s arguments in between quotes, which are usually not the most intelligent.

Case in point, his recent two-volume work about the Einsatzgruppen, which so far is available only in Italian unless I missed something (Carlo Mattogno, Gli Einsatzgruppen nei territori orientali occupati, Parte I – Genesi, compiti e attività and Parte II - L"'Azione 1005", both by Effepi Edizioni, Genova). In the following I will discuss some excerpts from the latter of these volumes (hereinafter "GE2", whereas Part I will be referred to as "GE1"), which deal specifically with the Ponary mass killing site near Vilnius.

On pages 260-263 and 273 of GE2, Mattogno quotes (in Italian translation) from a Soviet commission’s report about investigations (including witness interrogations and excavations) in the Ponary area, after A(lexey) Yakovlev, The Tragedy of Lithuania: 1941-1944. New documents on crimes of Lithuanian collaborators during the Second World War, a collection of eyewitness testimonies and documents that is available online both in the Russian original (Трагедия Литвы: 1941–1944 годы) and in the English translation also used by Mattogno. The report in question is reproduced on pp. 34-42 of the collection’s English translation, pp. 50-63 of the Russian text).

The aforementioned Soviet commission, which consisted mostly of Lithuanians including a doctor of medicine, a professor of medicine and two other academics, stated to have conducted its investigation "from August, 15 till August, 26 of this year". Which year? There seems to be no date on the report, and in Yakovlev’s collection the report is dated as having been drawn up "not earlier than August 26, 1946". However, there are several reasons to doubt that the 1946 dating is correct.

First of all, there would have been no reason to conduct a forensic investigation of Ponary more than two years after the site had been discovered by the Red Army. By that time reports of the Soviet "Extraordinary State Commission for Ascertaining and Investigating Crimes Perpetrated by the German-Fascist Invaders and their Accomplices" had already been submitted as evidence at the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, including prosecution document "USSR 7 – Report of the Extraordinary State Commission on atrocities in Lithuania" (Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Volume XXIV, "Exhibits of the Prosecution", pp. 170 ff.). The Soviet prosecution had on 27 February 1946 introduced as evidence the testimony of Abram Gerzevitch Sukzever, who described the occupiers’ actions against the Jews of Vilnius and their transportation to Ponary in some detail, even mentioning the names of some key participants including Martin Weiss and "a certain Herring", who we will meet again below. On 26 August 1946 the Nuremberg Trial of the Major War Criminals was in its two hundredth and eleventh day and well into the presentation of the defense case, which had started in early March of that year. The judgment was issued little more than a month later. In this context it would have been completely pointless to conduct an investigation of the Ponary killing site between 15 and 26 August 1946, as there was no way that the results of such investigation could still be used by the Soviet prosecution at Nuremberg.

Second, there had been an initial report about Ponary drawn up by Soviet officers and local residents on 14 July 1944 (which will be addressed below), followed by the interrogation on 7 August 1944 of witness Stanislav Stepanovich (Tragedy, pp. 32-33). On 14 August 1944 there had been issued a "Special Report of the 8th Department of the 4th Office of NKGB on Atrocities in Ponar", which consisted wholly of one or several eyewitness accounts (Tragedy, pp. 18-31). A forensic investigation starting on 15 August 1944 would fit nicely into this chronology.

Last but not least, there is a collection of photographs related to NS crimes that were made available by Soviet authorities to prosecutors of the German Federal Republic’s Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung Nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen (Central Office of the Judicial Authorities of the Federal States for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes). These photos are included in the records of the Central Office, copied by the USHMM. The USHMM’s Reel RG-14.101M.2304 contains over 2,000 photographs, including photos of excavations and exhumations at Ponary on pages 808 to 843. The title of the Ponary set of photographs, copied from the German Federal Archives’ file B162/30.119, reads as follows (my translation from the German translation of the Russian original):
Photographs of places where peaceful Soviet citizens were destroyed in Ponary and Novo-Vileyka, near the city of Vilnius, Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic, August 1944.


So it can be considered fairly certain that the report dated as "not earlier than 26 August 1946" in Yakovlev’s collection was actually drawn up around 26 August 1944. In the following this report will be called the "26 August 1944 report" for ease of reference, and the commission that drew up this report will be called the "August 1944 commission".

Said commission quoted from the depositions of several eyewitnesses, out of many according to the report (Tragedy, p. 37), namely the following:
• Sehnuz, Stanislav Stepanovich (СЕЙНЮЦ Станислав Степанович)
• Pavlovski, Sigizmund Dominikovich (ПАВЛОВСКИЙ Сигизмунд Доминикович)
• Yukhnevicheva, Maria Ivanovna (ЮХНЕВИЧЕВА Мария Ивановна)
• Ostrovski, Edward Ivanovich (ОСТРОВСКИЙ Эдуард Иванович)
• Blyazer [Blazer], Abragem Pinkusovich (БЛЯЗЕР [БЛАЗЕР] Абрагем
• Пинкусович)
• Zaydel, Matvej Fedorovich (ЗАЙДЕЛЬ Матвей Федорович)
• Anton Voyzekhovich (Антон ВОЙЦЕХОВИЧ)

Blyazer and Zajdel, whose testimonies are discussed by Mattogno (GE2 pages 260-263), were Jews who, according to the 26 August 1944 report, had "worked in Ponar at incineration of corpses until April 15, 1944, when they managed to escape from the death camp to partisans by a tunnel that was dug out under the ground, together with eleven other men who were working with them" (Tragedy, p. 39). The other witnesses were bystanders, local inhabitants who had witnessed the mass killings and body disposal at Ponary from afar, e.g. smelled the stench of the burning corpses. These bystander witness testimonies are not addressed by Mattogno, except for a brief quote (GE2 p. 272) of a part of Ostrovki’s testimony, in the context of an argument about there being no evidence (other than Ostrovski’s recollection) regarding the continuation of cremation operations at Ponary after the escape of Blyazer, Zajdel and other forced laborers in mid-April 1944. Ostrovski’s statement in this respect was rendered by the August 1944 commission as follows (Yakovlev, as above):
Witness OSTROVSKI Edward testified that he saw light from the fires on which
the corpses were burnt, from October, 1943 till July, 1944.
In the following I quote the subsequent parts of the 26 August 1944 report, highlighting the parts that Mattogno left out:
All the evidences of witnesses and what was very widely spoken about during at the time of the German occupation among the residents of Vilnius, was proved by the examination of the Ponar district performed after the liberation of Vilnius and its vicinities by the Red Army.

The Commission made the excavation of the pits in Ponar. From the round shaped pit 1, 34–35 meters wide and more than 5 meters deep, of capacity of 4,000 cubic meters, after removing the upper layer of the ground, mixed with ashes and burnt bones of people, 486 corpses were dug out and examined. After establishing the exact reason of death of the dug-out remains, which had a common character of death, further excavation of pit 1 was ceased. On the edges of the pit sand was removed from several corpses, and they were left to lie there. Thousands of Vilnius residents have seen the corpses.
After the excavation of a round shaped pit 2, of capacity of about 2,000 cubic meters, no corpses were revealed in it, however, the ground had the odour of corpses, and particles of burnt bones were found in the sand.
The bottom of the circular pit 3, with the same capacity as pit 1, was overgrown with grass. The pit had the smell of corpses, and its sand was mixed with burnt human bones. Near the pit there was a large amount of dentures. After the excavation of the pit, 27 tightly compressed corpses were found.
In a ditch 100 meter long, 2 meters wide and 1 meter deep two corpses in military clothes were found.
A total of 515 corpses were dug out and examined.
Besides, in many places of the Ponar pine forest, in the surface layer of the sand, lots of burnt human bones were found.
Burnt bones were found in pit 5 of capacity of 8,000 cubic meters, and also on the site prepared for communal graves of the exhumed corpses.
Most of the dug-out corpses are local Soviet people.
According to the documents found in the clothes, the majority of the killed people were of the Jewish nationality, the rest were Poles, Russians and Lithuanians. On some of the corpses Catholic and Orthodox devotional articles were found. The documents and objects found in the clothes of the killed people enable to establish that among the shot people were doctors, engineers, students, drivers, mechanics, railway men, tailors, watchmakers, dealers, etc.
Some of the corpses were recognized by friends and relatives, for example, corpses of a Vilnius doctor FEHGUS, watchmaker ZALKAND, etc. Citizen SUTAN P.A. from Svencioniai recognized the corpse of his sister GRINEVA.
The condition of the majority of the exhumed corpses testifies that they were killed by shooting in the nape.
The state of the corpses and documents found in clothes of the killed people indicate that executions in Ponar were conducted on a regular basis from July, 1941 till June, 1944. Based on careful examination of the facts of annihilation of Soviet civilians, the Commission has established as follows:
1. Mass annihilation of people in Ponar was regularly conducted by the fascist aggressors from July, 1941 till June, 1944.
2. Annihilation of the population was performed in every possible brutal way: execution, tortures, beatings and burying of half-dead people in the ground.
3. In order to hide traces of their crimes, the Hitlerite bandits […] their exhumation and subsequent incineration on fires specially arranged for it. Incinerations began in the autumn of 1943 and proceeded till early summer 1944.

4. Considering the huge quantity of burnt human bones spread on the surface of all the camp area, the corpses found in the pits that were not yet burnt, and witnesses’ testimonies, the total number of corpses is determined to be no less than one hundred thousand.
For all of these crimes the government of the Hitlerite Germany, German Supreme military command and the direct initiators are responsible:
1. Chief of Gestapo WOLF from Berlin
2. Captain GERT from Königsberg
3. Obersturmführer NOYGEBAUER
4. Obersturmführer RIHTER from Berlin
5. Obersturmführer ARTSCHWAGER from Klaipeda
6. Oberscharführer MAEHR Herman from Vienna
7. KITTEL a former film actor
8. SHCWEINBERGER from Berlin
9. Hauptscharführer WEIES Martin from Karlsruhe, chief of prisons of
Vilnius. Supervised over the executions in Ponar.
10. Oberscharführer FAULGARBER from Meingehm
11. Chief of the Ponar region PERR
12. Chief of guards of the Ponar region – BINKE
13. SCHREDDER – supervised over incinerations of corpses in Ponar
14. IONDER Berta from Klaipeda
The reason for Mattogno’s first omission seems to be the information contained therein about documents and objects pertaining or related to the victims, the commission’s conclusion (based on such documents and/or objects) that most of those exhumed were Jews, it’s finds about the cause of death, and the fact that some of those whose corpses were found were recognized by friends or relatives. None of this goes down well with Mattogno’s subsequent calling into question the number of exhumed corpses reported by this Soviet commission, which will be addressed below.

As to the second omission, the name that is of particular interest is that of "Hauptscharführer WEIES Martin from Karlsruhe". The name of this officer, spelled wrongly by the Soviet commission, was Martin Weiss. Mattogno mentions Weiss only once, on page 254 of GE2, where he states that evidence presented by Israeli historian Yitzhak Arad regarding Ponary includes "two pages from the trial of Martin Weiss […] before the Würzburg District Court in February 1950" ("due pagine del processo a Martin Weiss […]nel febbraio 1950").

With this mention Mattogno unwittingly puts the lie on an earlier claim of his, made in the context of his discussion of the Jäger Report, whereby "in the so-called "trial of EK3"" the "17 other defendants" (besides Hauptsturmführer Heinrich Schmitz, who had died of a stroke in August 1963) were acquitted because they could not be found guilty of individual crimes (GE1, p. 174). No information about this trial, which Mattogno suggests was the only trial of members of Einsatzkommando (EK) 3 (the unit commanded by Jäger), can be found on the University of Amsterdam’s Justiz und NS-Verbrechen (JuNSV) website, which contains a complete listing of all NS-crimes trials in the German Federal Republic. The only trials against members of EK3 and EK3a mentioned by JuNSV are the following ("LG" stands for Landgericht, i.e. District Court or Court of Assizes):

• Case Nr. 512 (LG Koblenz 610612), in which Hans Hermann Remmers and Carl Zenner were sentenced to, respectively, 8 and 15 years imprisonment on account of their participation in mass killings in present-day Belarus.

• Case Nr. 192 (LG Würzburg 500203, LG Würzburg 670921). At the first of these two trials, as I know from reading the JuNSV transcription of Case Nr. 192, Martin Weiss was convicted to lifetime imprisonment for the murder of at least 30,000 people by units under his command, mostly at the Ponary killing site near Vilnius, as well as several individual murders he committed by his own hand. Also convicted was August Hering, who was obviously the "certain Herring" mentioned in Sukzever’s testimony at the Nuremberg Trial of the Major War Criminals. The 1967 verdict acquitted Weiss from one of the individual murder charges on which he had been convicted in 1950, the murder of a female singer.

Weiss’ mention as one of the Ponary killers in the August 1944 Soviet commission’s report, and his later conviction in the German Federal Republic based on evidence obviously uninfluenced by the Soviets, show a convergence between independent sources of evidence (Soviet and non-Soviet ones) that Mattogno may have wanted to conceal from his readers.

Coming up next: Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary, Part 2
Last edited by Roberto on Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:23 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:45 pm
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:35 pm

Censored CODOH post # 154

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"

Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. Yawn. Produce your proof of 100,000 at Ponar. Pretty simple request..

Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:09 pm
Comment:

See previous post on this thread.

Reproduction of censored post:
Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary
Part 2

Back now to Mattogno’s considerations regarding the August 1944 commission’s report as concerns excavations at Ponary and finds of human corpses and cremation remains.

Mattogno bemoans that the August 1944 commission reported having found only 5 pits whereas witnesses mentioned 8 pits. Apparently he wasn’t very attentive when reading this report, which in its fifth and sixth paragraph contains the following information (emphasis added):
In 1940, a construction of a base for liquid fuel was started here, for which huge pits had been excavated. The construction of the base had not been completed, and the pits were used by Hitlerite murderers for burying corpses of the killed people.

Upon the inspection of this district, seven of such circular pits were revealed and three oblong ditches, in which there were corpses of shot people, clothes and what was left of them, miscellaneous things and documents of the killed people, and also bones and ashes of the burnt corpses. Around the mentioned pits and ditches ten locations were found where Hitlerite murderers burnt corpses.
The above suggests that the August 1944 commission did not excavate all of the pits it identified by visual inspection, on hand of their outside aspect.

Having calculated that the August 1944 commission’s figures about the excavated pits’ measurements and volume add up to a total burial space of about 18.200 m³, Mattogno then assumes a burial density of 3.5 corpses per cubic meter and calculates that the total volume of the pits in question could thus hold 63,700 corpses, which is way below the over 100,000 corpses assumed by this Soviet commission.

Why 3.5 corpses per cubic meter?

This density, which appears as a default value also elsewhere in GE2, seems to be based on German historian Christian Gerlach’s mention of a Soviet report about a burial pit at Drogichin in Belorussia, which had a volume of 1,092 m³ and contained 3,816 corpses, thereof 895 men, 1,083 women and 1,838 children (GE 2 p. 11, reference to Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde. Die deutsche Wirtschafts- und Vernichtungspolitik in Weissrussland 1941 bis 1944, Hamburger Edition 1999, note 1173 on page 718). Before his reference to Gerlach, Mattogno mentions two Soviet investigation reports about mass killing pits in the area of Žagare, Lithuania, in which the burial density, according to Mattogno’s calculations, was 2.9 corpses per cubic meter (GE 2 p. 11, reference to Tragedy, pp. 50-54).

From these densities Mattogno seems to have concluded that, wherever Nazi mobile killing squads shot Jews, they buried them at a density of no more than 3.5 corpses per cubic meter.

This is of course a baseless generalization, especially as a density of 3.5 corpses per cubic meter is way below what is achievable. In earlier writings Mattogno had assumed that a density of 8 corpses per cubic meter was possible if the corpses included those of children. And even that density is way too low, for a density of ca. 12 corpses per cubic meter, assumed by Alex Bay, is well within the range of what is possible if the corpses included a large proportion of women and children.

The density at which victims of mass shootings were buried would depend on the available burial space on the one hand and the number of people shot on the other. The burial density in mass graves may thus have been way below capacity in some cases, closer to a most economic use of the available space in others. Regarding the burial site at Blagovshchina in Belorussia the Soviets seem to have considered a burial density of 6 or up to 6 corpses per cubic meter (150,000 corpses in an estimated volume of 25,000 cubic meters), see Gerlach, as above, footnote 1471 on pp. 770 (translation here). This information is omitted by Mattogno, who obviously cites Gerlach when it suits him and ignores him when it does not. At 6 corpses per cubic meter the excavated Ponary pits alone could hold more than 100,000 corpses (whether they actually so did would of course depend on how many people were killed at Ponary).

The August 1944 commission stated to have based its estimate of the number of people killed at Ponary on "the huge quantity of burnt human bones spread on the surface of all the camp area, the corpses found in the pits that were not yet burnt, and witnesses’ testimonies". If Mattogno had argued that such evidence (as opposed to completely quantified physical and/or documentary evidence) is a weak basis for establishing the extent of a crime, he would have a point. But the arguments he makes instead are not exactly the brightest.

The reasonable conclusion to be derived from the contradictions claimed by Mattogno, between the August 1944 Soviet commission’s reported finds of a "huge quantity of burnt human bones" (Tragedy, p. 41), and eyewitness testimonies whereby such remains were smashed and sifted until they were reduced to "little more than powder" ("poco più che polvere", GE2 page 274), would be that the eyewitnesses in question were exaggerating where they claimed that they had done a perfect job in reducing cremation remains. That may have been the desired result, but the very scale of the undertaking made it impossible to achieve such result, not only at Ponary but also at other Nazi mass killing sites where it was attempted to erase the traces of the crime as best as possible.

Besides, what eyewitnesses is Mattogno referring to?

One finds no claim of such thorough reduction in the accounts of Blyazer and Zaydel quoted in the August 1944 commission’s report. The closest these accounts come to Mattogno’s argument is Zaydel’s recollection that he and his fellow slave laborers were forced to "gather up what remained from the burnt corpses, for example teeth, rings, etc." (Tragedy, p. 38). The only testimonies in which a thorough crushing of burned bones is mentioned seem to be that of Yuri Farber in Ilya Ehrenburg, Vasily Grossman, The Complete Black Book of Russian Jewry, pp. 461-462, which is quoted in GE2, pp. 255-256, and that of the same Yuri Farber (according to Mattogno, p. 257) in the aforementioned "Special Report of the 8th Department of the 4th Office of the NKGB USSR on Atrocities in Ponar" (Mattogno claims that the testimony of the unnamed witness he supposes to be Yuri Farber is "una evidente relaborazione", an "obvious reworking", of said report.)

Regarding Blyazer, it is worth pointing out that, in order to sustain yet another of his well known claims of physical/logistical impossibility, Mattogno (GE2, p. 262) tries to make the witness’s statement that of the body disposal team "15 people prepared firewood" (Tragedy, p. 38) into a claim that these forced laborers "cut the wood" ("tagliavano la legna") in the sense of felling trees. This is supposed to follow from the original Russian text "15 чел. работали на распилке дров для костров" (Трагедия, p. 57), which translates as "15 persons worked on sawing firewood". Apparently it didn’t occur to Mattogno that sawing available firewood and obtaining it by felling trees is not exactly the same thing, and that Blyazer obviously meant the former and not the latter, especially as the witness Zaydel clearly referred to preparing firewood: "Здесь немцы нас использовали для приготовления дров и сжигания трупов" (Трагедия, p. 57), correctly translated as "Here Germans used us for preparing firewood and burning corpses." (Tragedy, p. 38).

Mattogno then bemoans the lack of publicly available pictures, among the "many photographs of the Ponary site", on which one can see "that" huge quantity of burnt human bones. This argument is a no-brainer for several reasons. First of all, there are not all that many publicly available photographs of the Ponary site, at least of what it looked like during the war. Second, burned human bones don’t look very impressive on photographs and in film footage (see for instance the stills from Soviet cameraman Sofin’s footage of burned human bones "near Slonim on the road to Baranovka, on June 13, 1944", which are shown here. Even a photo of a single whole corpse makes a stronger impression on the viewer, so the motivation to photograph or film cremation remains may not have been the highest. Third, the limitations of the camera eye (which are obvious to anyone other than Revisionists, including the movement’s foremost scholar), would make the depiction of all cremation remains an enormous undertaking, to little avail for the aforementioned reasons. And last but not least, only some of the photos that are publicly available, as we shall see below, are related to the 26 August 1944 report.

Along the same lines, but even less reasonable, is Mattogno’s questioning the veracity of the August 1944 Soviet commission’s statement that 515 corpses were exhumed from the mass graves it excavated at Ponary.

Mattogno claims that the finding of such unburned corpses is incompatible with eyewitness testimonies, namely that of Yuri Farber whereby only "several dozen bodies" had been saved from cremation and buried in "secret places" (GE2 page 274). Emphasizing how "easily" the Soviet commission had found the reported 515 exhumed corpses, Mattogno argues that it would have been impossible, for the prisoners forced to cremate the corpses at Ponary, to conceal these 515 corpses. It obviously didn’t occur to him that these corpses may have been of people who had been buried after the escape of Farber and other prisoners, perhaps even shortly before the Germans left the site.

Another "problem", according to Mattogno, is the supposed incompatibility of the August 1944 investigation report with the aforementioned report issued on 14 July 1944, except as concerns the death toll estimate, which the later report is supposed to have simply taken over from the earlier one (GE2, p. 274). Mattogno quotes parts of this earlier report, which according to Mattogno was issued by "major N.G. Kuznetsov and other Soviet officers", following their inspection of the Ponary site. The report, which is included in a document collection with the title Зверства немецко-Фашистских Захбатчиков. Документы. Выпуск 15 (Atrocities by German fascist invaders. Documents, Issue 15) that can be downloaded here, was drawn up by three Soviet army officers, one Soviet army private and a number of local residents (which Mattogno does not mention), the latter being obviously the source of most of the information contained therein. Besides narrating particulars of the killing at Ponary and stating an estimate of about 100,000 victims, the July 1944 report mentions the discovery of 7 enormous round pits six meters deep, with a diameter of 14 meters in the lower part and 25 meters in the upper part, 4 smaller pits and 7 ditches/moats 4 to 1.5 meters deep, 4 to 2.5 meters wide and 20 to 50 meters long. According to the July 1944 report the last mass killing at Ponary was carried out on 3-4 July 1944, when up to 4,000 people were killed ("Обречённые на расстрел в количестве до 4 тыc. человек были доставлены в Панеряй на автомашинах].""Those doomed to execution, up to four thousand persons, were taken to Paneriai in motor cars.") The Germans no longer had the time to burn the corpses of these people, so they buried them in one of the large pits and covered them with a thin layer of sand.

Mattogno’s first argument is that the number and size of the burial pits mentioned in the July 1944 report is in "blatant contradiction" ("palese contraddizione") with the report of "14 August 1944" (by which he obviously means the 26 August 1944 report, as the 14 August 1944 report is merely a rendering of eyewitness accounts). Apparently the above-quoted part of the 26 August 1944 report, which mentions 7 circular pits (obviously not all excavated), escaped Mattogno’s attention.

The next argument in this context is that, because the August 1944 commission didn’t find the 4,000 corpses of the final execution mentioned in the 14 July 1944 report, that figure must be a false propaganda figure. Actually the August 1944 commission, which discontinued excavation in the first pit after unearthing 486 unburned corpses below "the upper layer of the ground, mixed with ashes and burnt bones of people" (Tragedy, p. 39), is likely to have unearthed the corpses of some of the last massacre’s victims, which were obviously buried only slightly below ground. What is more, it speaks in favor of rather than against the reliability of the August 1944 commission that this commission mentioned only 515 exhumed corpses. If said commission (which must have been aware of the July 1944 report) had wanted to "cheat", it would certainly have reported a far larger number of exhumed corpses than it did, at least a number in the order of the up to 4,000 victims of the last execution at Ponary, mentioned in the July 1944 report.

Mattogno’s next argument is that, if the Soviets had exhumed 515 corpses at Ponary, these corpses should be visible in "at least some of the many existing photographs of Ponary" ("almeno in alcune delle molte fotografie di Ponary esistenti"). "Existing" in this context means "publicly available", as Mattogno subsequently "examines" only photos available in the photo archives of The Ghetto Fighters’ House and Yad Vashem.

Now, what makes Mattogno think that either of these entities would necessarily have a complete collection of photographs pertaining to excavations/find of human remains at the Ponary site?

It’s not like the complete texts and attachments of all the many reports prepared by Soviet investigation commissions had been made available to the public. The aforementioned Soviet reports submitted at the Nuremberg Trial of the Major War Criminals were not published in the IMT collection due to the lack of translators from Russian, as mentioned here. Since then a few of the Soviet reports and/or related photographs have been made available to the public, e.g. in the collection »Gott mit uns« Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten 1939-1945 edited by Ernst Klee and Willi Dreßen, which I mentioned here and here, or in Yakovlev’s Tragedy collection. However, neither Yad Vahem nor The Ghetto Fighters’ House claim to possess, let alone to have published, all photographs of NS-crimes that were taken and are available in archives, or even all photographs pertaining to certain killing sites. Both organizations have received their photographs from identified submitters, which are archives in some cases and individuals in many others. So expecting to find in the online archives of either a complete collection of photographs pertaining to a specific killing site, or even to a specific investigation of such killing site, is rather unrealistic.

What is more, even if such collection were available, it would be unrealistic to expect all exhumed corpses to be visible in such collection.
The German Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn, which is held up by Revisionists as the gold standard of a complete and thorough mass murder documentation, is about 340 pages long and contains the names (as far as they could be established) of all 4,143 exhumed victims of this Soviet killing. However, in the Bilddokumente section at the end of the report, which contains 57 photographs, one sees about 400 corpses at most, counted generously and assuming that no two photos show the same corpses (which is unlikely).

It’s time for Mattogno and other Revisionists to realize that the purpose of photos consists in illustrating what becomes apparent from other evidence, and not in providing a complete documentation of corpses exhumed from mass graves.
Coming up next: Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary Part 3
Last edited by Roberto on Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:35 pm

Censored CODOH post # 155

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

This case of censorship belongs in a category that I would call "censorship deluxe". Instead of dropping the whole post (a discussion of "Ponary" photographs featured by The Ghetto Fighters' House and/or Yad Vashem and related arguments of Carlo Mattogno) into the memory hole, the CODOH moderator/censor (who is obviously identical with CODOH poster "Hannover") truncated the post so as to completely distort or remove its message and essential arguments, including all references to Mattogno, leaving only the photographs and some of the comments (which do not mention Mattogno) as supposedly meant to prove my "claims" about Ponary (which is a double lie insofar as I'm not an idiot who would expect photos alone to prove anything, and the "claims" attributed to me - 100,000 people killed at Ponary - are not claims that I remember having made).

In the reproduction of this post below I will highlight by larger lettering the parts cut out by the censor.
Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary
Part 3


Now, let’s look at the Ponary photos that Mattogno "examined", and at what (other) photos that may be relevant to Mattogno’s argument regarding the exhumed corpses mentioned in the 26 August 1944 report (and/or to his other arguments presented in this context) are available in the online archives of The Ghetto Fighters House and Yad Vashem. All photos must, of course, be credited to the respective institution in whose archives they are featured, respectively The Ghetto Fighters’ House and Yad Vashem. Photos that appear in both collections are shown only once, with the references in each of these collections.

Contrary to Mattogno’s claims, there aren’t all that many photos of Ponary available online. The Ghetto Fighters’ House online photos archive has 105 ("General Search" for "Ponary" on 04.11.2017), the YV photos archive has 188 (search for "Ponary" under "Global Search" on 04.11.2017), but some photos are in both collections and/or repeated in one of them (the YV collection), and most of the photos in both collections are prewar photos, photos of the monument(s)/memorials and/or visitors thereof at Ponary and/or of commemoration events, portraits of witnesses or other persons and other photos that are irrelevant to Mattogno’s argument and mine, for which the only relevant photos are such of corpses and of mass graves or cremation pits in the immediate postwar period or at least prior to the building of monuments, especially such that show members of investigation commissions and/or their work. Also relevant are photos of the procedures at Ponary that were taken in 1941 by Wehrmacht soldier Otto Schroff and others, which will be addressed later on.

The images shown below are the "most significant" photos that Mattogno has "examined"
(GE2, pp. 274-275). "TGFH" stands for "The Ghetto Fighters’ House” and "YV" stands for "Yad Vashem". Captions are by the respective institution featuring these photos.

1. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5899
TGFH Brief Description: Bodies at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 00237p
TGFH Period: During World War II


Mattogno’s comment is that this photo shows 10-12 "fresh" corpses lying on sandy soil.
My comment: whether the corpses are "fresh" or in an early state of decomposition is hard to determine, but what is obvious is that these corpses had not been buried. That might be because they are victims of last-minute executions before the Germans left the site, but no finds of such corpses are mentioned in any Soviet report that I know of. Maybe the photo was taken by one of the Ponary operators some time before the place was left, and later found in his possession, but without further information this is a merely speculative possibility. So it’s questionable whether this is really a Ponary photo. I wrote to TGFH recommending that they should recheck the photo’s provenance and context.


2. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5904
TGFH Brief Description: Corpses exhumed from mass graves at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 09231p
TGFH Period: During World War II

YV Item ID: 30884
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Bodies of the victims that were massacred there.
YV Archival Signature: 1798/14


Mattogno’s comment is that this photo shows about 50-60 "fresh" corpses lined up in a wooded area. The corpses don’t look "fresh" to me, but rather like they are in an early state of decomposition, perhaps because they were exhumed shortly after burial. Ponary is a wooded area, so the location could be Ponary. The lining-up of several corpses for viewing by Vilnius residents is mentioned in the August 1944 report. So this could be a Ponary photo.

However, there is the USHMM’s collection mentioned above (RG-14.101M.2304), which contains copies of photographs captioned as pertaining to the Ponary investigation in August 1944 on pp. 808-843, including the ones mentioned hereafter on which mass graves, excavations and exhumed corpses can be recognized. As this collection is not in the public domain (except for three or four of its photographs, which are in the Yad Vashem photo archive and will be addressed below), a description of what can be seen on the relevant photographs will have to do. The caption texts are translations from the German translation of the original Russian captions.

Pages 812-813
"Ponary, near the city of Vilna, where 100,000 peaceful Soviet citizens were annihilated": Five photographs of the Ponary site prior to excavations, with at least two showing unexcavated pits.

Pages 814-817
"The first exhumation of a number of corpses.": One page has four photos, of which three show exhumed corpses and white-clad persons (obviously physicians of the investigating commission) as well as persons in uniform (obviously Red Army officers and/or soldiers). On the fourth one can recognize mounds of excavated soil in the foreground, a long pit with a deeper and a shallower part in the middle, white-clad persons bent-over or kneeling at the bottom of the shallower part, and persons standing behind the pit in the background. On another page there is an enlargement of one of the three photos showing exhumed corpses. On yet another page there is an enlargement of the photo showing the excavated soil. On this enlargement one can recognize that the white-clad persons kneeling or bent-over at the bottom of the pit’s shallower part are obviously examining corpses.

Pages 818-821
"Corpses of persons shot in June – July 1944. The Hitler thugs no longer managed to burn them": Four photos.
The photo on top left show corpses aligned inside a fairly deep pit. On the left side one can recognize two white-clad persons who seem to be examining a corpse and two other persons standing next to them. At the top of the pit there are several white-clad persons.
The photo on top right shows a single corpse lying on the ground. On a later page there is an enlargement of this photo.
The photo on bottom right shows uniformed men standing by several corpses.
The photo on bottom left shows two white-clad persons examining some out of several corpses inside a shallower pit, one white-clad person and two uniformed persons inside the pit looking at the corpses, and one white-clad person at the top of the pit. Another page contains an enlargement of this photo, on which one can recognize three further persons at the top of the pit and at least one other shape suggesting a corpse to the left of the uniformed men inside the pit.

Pages 822-826
"Opening of the first pit.": Four photos show people who are or have been digging to a considerable depth. Enlargements of three of these photos follow. On the first, corresponding to the photo on bottom right, one can recognize corpses lying at the bottom of a shallower part of the pit, and a while-clad person looking down at one or more of these corpses. On the second, corresponding to the photo on the upper left, one can see white-clad persons and other persons, some of them digging, inside a pit that is being excavated. What seems to be corpses can be seen at the lower right, behind three persons standing inside the pit. On the third enlargement, which corresponds to the photo on bottom left, persons standing inside a rather deep pit and at the edges of that pit can be recognized.

Pages 827-828
"The medical-juridical commission": Four photos showing white-clad persons examining corpses at the bottom of a shallow pit.

Pages 836-837
"Members of the Republic’s Commission in Ponary": Three photos. On one of them several persons who seem to be standing inside a shallow pit can be made out. Another photo shows the upper part of a pit and two white-clad persons bent-over or sitting by corpses, with what seems to be further corpses in the left foreground, to the left of the bent-over person. The third photo shows what seems to be the same place, with several persons seemingly bringing up or looking down onto further corpses.

Pages 840-841
"Upper left: the surface of the second pit prior to excavation works. Upper right: exhumation works at the 4th pit. Below: exhumation works at the second pit": Four photos.
The one on the upper right seems to be a bird’s eye view of an excavated pit, showing bright mounds of soil and dark shapes, possibly corpses, silhouetted against the bright soil on which they are lying.
On the photo at the lower left one can recognize several standing persons and at least one bent-over white-clad person obviously examining a corpse. It seems that there are further corpses lying on the ground behind the bent-over person, in front of three persons in the background. There also seems to be another person standing among corpses on the ground.
The photo at the lower right shows three standing persons, one of them apparently clad in white, who seem to be surrounded by corpses lying on the ground.

Pages 842-843
"Above: exhumed corpses in the third pit with tied-up hands. Below: exhumation works at the 3rd pit.": Four photos.
On the upper left photo one can see a bent-over white-clad person inside a pit, apparently surrounded by corpses including one that person is examining.
On the upper right photo one can recognize the wall of a pit and what seem to be corpses lying at the bottom of that pit.
On the lower left photo several white-clad persons, including two that are bent over (obviously because they are examining one or more corpses) can be made out.
The photo on the lower right shows the bottom of a pit at its lower left side, with several persons including white-clad ones standing and shapes that must be corpses lying on the ground.

The above examination of Ponary excavation/exhumation photos of which copies are available at the USHMM shows that there are more such photos, mostly not in the public domain, than can be found in the TGFH and YV collections. On the other hand, the photo TGFH Catalog No. 5904/YV Item ID 30884, from what can be made out on the USHMM copies, is none of these photos. Why not? While the Soviets need not have made available to the German prosecutors all photographs taken during the August 1944 excavations/exhumations at Ponary, it seems odd that they should have omitted so graphic an image of Ponary victims. Therefore, it remains open to question whether the photo TGFH Catalog No. 5904/YV Item ID 30884 was taken at Ponary. I wrote to TGFH recommending that they should recheck the photo’s provenance and context.


3. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5900
TGFH Brief Description: A body in a mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 00467p
TGFH Period: During World War


My comment: the single corpse shown on this photo is obviously lying in sandy soil, meaning that it could be one of the corpses exhumed at Ponary. If so, the photo would either not have been among the ones made available to German prosecutors by Soviet authorities, or a close-up from the original or a better-quality copy of one of these photographs.

4. Image

TGFH Catalog No.: 5901
TGFH Brief Description: Bodies at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 00766p
TGFH Period: During World War II
YV Item ID: 76136
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Three corpses.
YV Archival Signature: 3380/118
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection
YV Source: Borowicz Collection


My comment: the three corpses visible on this picture seem to have been excavated from sandy soil and are lying by a pit, presumably the one from which they were extracted. They could thus be Ponary corpses, like the single corpses in the previous photo shown.

5. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5911
TGFH Brief Description: A pit at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna), containing the remains of the murdered victims.
TGFH Registry No.: 30762p
TGFH Period: During World War II


Mattogno’s comment: "removed soil with a skull" ("terra rimossa con un teschio"). That’s correct, except that there are also numerous other objects that were probably not part of the original sandy soil. These could be bone fragments left over from the grinding of cremation remains.

6. Image

TGFH Catalog No.: 5912
TGFH Brief Description: A pit at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna), containing shreds of clothing and the remains of the murdered victims themselves.
TGFH Registry No.: 30763p
TGFH Period: During World War II

YV Item ID: 81416
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Scattered clothing at the execution site, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 2656/37


Mattogno’s comment: "the edge of a pit from which hang a few pieces of clothing that partially cover long human bones in two or three cases" ("il bordo di una fossa da cui pendono pochi brandelli di vestiti che coprono, in parte, in due o tre casi ossa umane lunghe").

My comment: Mattogno missed the small white objects littering the soil below the clothes and also visible inside the pit’s wall on the right, which could be bone fragments. Besides, the fact that people were deprived of their clothes at Ponary (if the photo was taken there) is already an indication that Ponary was an extermination site. But then, Mattogno doesn’t call that into question, if I understood him correctly.


7. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5910
TGFH Brief Description: A pit at the Ponary mass extermination site, in which the remains of victims can be seen.
TGFH Registry No.: 30761p
TGFH Period: During World War II


Mattogno’s comment: "a small pit at the bottom of which one sees about twenty objects, predominantly shoes" ("una piccola fossa in fondo alla quale si vedono una ventina di oggetti, in pre-valenza scarpe").

My comment: Soviet investigators also mentioned smaller pits at Ponary, but it cannot be determined if the photo shows a smaller pit or part of a partially excavated larger pit. What objects are at the pit’s bottom is hard to tell.

Mattogno’s conclusion from this part of his "examination" is that none of these photographs confirm the Soviet assertions. Which may be correct, but the reason is that
a) Mattogno left the interesting publicly available photographs out of his "examination" (as we shall see below), and
b) photographs pertaining to Soviet investigations of the Ponary killing site are not necessarily included in collections accessible on the internet (as was demonstrated above regarding the copies of Ponary photos included in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304). This, in turn, means that Mattogno’s assertion is
i) somewhat-less-than-honest, and
ii) irrelevant.

Mattogno continues by referring to photos that that were undoubtedly taken at Ponary and depict the circular pits "mentioned above". Here’s one of these photos:


8. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5906
TGFH Brief Description: A mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna). TGFH Registry No.: 16560p
TGFH Period: During World War II

YV Item ID: 30956
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, A mass grave.
YV Archival Signature: 1798/15


After describing the features of this pit, Mattogno claims that there is no proof that this covered pit was a mass grave. If that were true as concerns the features of the pit visible on the photograph, the pit would be no different from the "Gräberfeld" (field of graves) shown in Image 2 attached to the aforementioned "Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn" – there’s nothing in this "Gesamtübersicht" (overall view) of pits being excavated to suggest that these pits are mass graves. But actually the Ponary pit carries a more sinister message already in its shape and on its covered surface. For if this pit had not been not a mass grave but a pit used for another purpose (namely the purpose for which it was originally intended by the Soviets prior to the German invasion, as a fuel storage deposit), then why was it filled up with soil? Moreover the circular shape of burial pits at Ponary is not only mentioned in eyewitness testimonies and in Soviet investigation reports, which Mattogno goes out of his way to discredit. It is also mentioned in yet another of Mattogno’s valuable (though unwitting) contributions to serious historical research.
On page 230 of GE2 Mattogno mentions and partially quotes from a letter dated 2 July 1942, sent by the Kreisarzt (County Medical Officer) of the Gesundheitsverwaltung des Kreises Wìlna (Health Administration of Vilna County) to the Gebietskommissar Wìlna-Land, regarding corpses and carcasses in the county’s area (archival reference: LCVA, R-613-1-10, p. 70; LCVA stands for Lietuvos Centrinis Valstybės Archyvas, the Lithuanian Central State Archives).

The interesting contents of this document, which mentions mass graves at a number of places visited by Jäger’s Einsatzkommando 3, will again be referred to when discussing Mattogno’s assessment of the Jäger Report. For now the part to be highlighted is the following, which I quote not after Mattogno but from a color copy of the document that I obtained from the Lithuanian Central State Archives. Remarks in square brackets are mine and refer to mistakes in the German text, which must be due to the fact that the County Medical Officer, a Lithuanian, did not fully master the German language.

In der Gemeinde Rudamina, im Wäldchen Paneriai (in der Nähe des Bahnhofes Paneriai) sind die Massengräber etwas höher auf dem Sandboden gelegen. Es sind etliche rundförmige Bestattungsstellen vom[von] 30 m. Umfang. lm Falle einer Senkung werden diese Stellen mit Erde nachgehauft[nachgehäuft]. Die Bestattungsstellen sind umgezäunt[umzäunt] und unter fortwährender Aufsicht und unterstehen der deutschen Sicherheitspolizei.
My translation:

In the community of Rudamina, in the small forest Paneriai (near the Paneriai railway station) the mass graves lie a little higher on the sandy soil. There are several round-shaped burial places with a diameter of 30 m. In case of sinking these placed are filled back with soil. The burial places are fenced-in and under constant vigilance and pertain to the German Security Police.


Emphases in the above translation are mine. I translated as "diameter" the term "Umfang", which literally means "circumference", as I consider it improbable that the County Medical Officer would have established the graves’ circumference whereas the diameter was easy for him to estimate (and sufficient to calculate the graves’ area according to the formula A = π x r², which in this case would mean an area of 706.86 m²).

Mattogno quotes the above text to make the "point" that it mentions neither the number of graves nor whether they contain Jews, but that is quite irrelevant as the number and contents of the graves can be established on hand of other evidence. Besides, a paragraph of the letter omitted by Mattogno (which mentions burial sites pertaining to the Wehrmacht at the "N.Wilna" POW camp) makes it clear that the graves did not contain corpses of Soviet POWs who had died in captivity. As there were also no large-scale killings of non-Jewish civilians in the Vilnius area in 1941 (the figures in the Jäger Report add up to a mere 2,056 non-Jews executed in all of Lithuania, versus 135,391 Jews), it is obvious that the mass graves at Paneriai mentioned by the County Medical Officer contained almost exclusively the corpses of Jews shot at Paneriai.

Anyway, what’s essential here is the mention of the graves’ round/circular shape, which dovetails with the shape of the pit shown in the above image GFH Catalog No.: 5906/ YV Item ID: 30956. It is also in line with the description of the excavated pits in the above-quoted 26 August 1944 report by the Soviet forensic-medical commission. Even the measurements are similar: according to the Soviet commission the pits, or at least the one from which 486 corpses were stated to have been exhumed, was 34-35 meters wide (i.e. had a diameter of 34-35 meters). So here we have another case in which a Soviet investigation report is corroborated by evidence independent of the Soviets.

Further corroboration of these two sources comes from the testimonies of bystander witnesses of which, as we shall see below, Mattogno suppresses one in a vain attempt to discredit the other.


Now to the last three Ponary photographs from the TGFH collection that are addressed by Mattogno.

9. Image

TGFH Catalog No.: 5914
TGFH Brief Description: A bunker at the Ponary mass extermination site, which housed the Jewish "sonderkommando" men.
TGFH Registry No.: 09220p
TGFH Period: During World War II

YV Item ID: 77989
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, The unfinished fuel tank site, which was used as an execution site for Jews from the Vilna region.
YV Archival Signature: 3380/409
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection

YV Item ID: 25077
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, A bunker.
YV Archival Signature: 1798/16


10. Image

TGFH Catalog No.: 5913
TGFH Brief Description: A bunker at the Ponary mass extermination site, which housed the Jewish "sonderkommando" men.
TGFH Registry No.: 00017p
TGFH Period: During World War II

YV Item ID: 26407
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, A bunker.
YV Archival Signature: 1798/17


11. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5915
TGFH Brief Description: A bunker at the Ponary mass extermination site, which housed the Jewish "sonderkommando" men.
TGFH Registry No.: 30759p
TGFH Period: During World War II


Mattogno concedes that these photographs correspond well to eyewitness descriptions of the place they were kept in and managed to escape from, but adds that the photos were taken at a time after the arrival of the Soviets when the place was accessible to everyone, including the witnesses – an obvious insinuation that the witnesses modeled their accounts on what they had seen on site a posteriori.

The photos are also supposed to visually illustrate the utter impossibility (which Mattogno has argued at great length before, especially as concerns the witness Yuri Farber) of digging with bare hands and spoons a tunnel that would end at the intended place in the wooded area seen in the background. That wooded area doesn’t look like it’s far away, the tunneling work is stated to have taken months, and digging in the sandy soil even with bare hands was easy, according to the longest testimony rendered in the NKGB "Special Report" of 14 August 1944 (which Mattogno attributes to Yuri Farber and discusses in GE2 pp. 257-260). The problem was stabilizing the tunnel’s walls, which kept caving in (Mattogno also takes issue with what the witness stated about how this problem was overcome).

Anyway, in Mattogno’s world the witnesses are supposed to have picked the most improbable of possible scenarios for their "escape story". And they would also have subsequently "planted" archaeological evidence (which Mattogno doesn’t address, even though the finding of this evidence was reported in mid-2016 whereas Mattogno’s book was published in 2017) suggesting that the escape tunnel wasn’t as impossible as Mattogno would like it to be.

More convincing than Mattogno’s aforementioned musings regarding the escape tunnel and (especially) the Ponary burial pits is his assessment of one photo in the Yad Vashem photo archives captioned as pertaining to Ponary, the one shown below.


12. Image
YV Item ID: 83877
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, A pile of corpses and skulls at the time of liberation.
YV additional info: connected to Item Testimony of Gerszon Delaticki, born in Iwie, Poland, 1911, regarding his experiences in the Red Army in the Mogilev region, using a false identity while in German captivity, with the partisans in the Smolensk region and Ponary, and in Klooga
YV Archival Signature: 1869/478


Regarding this picture I agree with Mattogno (GE2, p. 275). The emaciation of the corpses and the striped uniform seen on some of them suggest that the photo was taken in a German concentration camp at the time of liberation, and not at Ponary.

I would add that, on the USHMM website, the same photo is captioned as having been taken at Dachau concentration camp on 4 May 1945.

Like other obviously or possibly mistaken captions in the Ponary collection, this one has been brought to Yad Vashem’s attention.

In this context it should be pointed out that the apparent unreliability of the TGFH and/or Yad Vashem photo captions as concerns Ponary would mean that their online archives are poorly suited for determining whether and to what extent photographs corroborate the Soviet investigators’ description of their work and finds at the Ponary site. In other words, the absence of such photographic corroboration in the TGFH and Yad Vashem online archives need not mean anything.

The presence of corroborating photographs unmentioned by Mattogno, on the other hand, would be a further blow to his already depleted credibility.

In the following we’ll have a look at images not addressed by Mattogno that are captioned as having been taken at Ponary in the TGFH online archive and/or the Yad Vashem online archive.

The purpose of this exercise is twofold: to check the accuracy (or at least plausibility) of these archives’ photo captions, and to find photos pertaining to the August 1944 Soviet forensic investigation that Mattogno failed to detect in his "examination" (or deliberately omitted). Where neither of the two applies, the photo shown need not be commented.


13. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5905
TGFH Brief Description: Dr. Alexander Libo standing beside a mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 12582p
TGFH Period: After World War II
TGFH additional info: Dr. Alexander Libo standing beside a mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna). Photographed on February 2, 1958.


14. Image

TGFH Catalog No.: 5907
TGFH Brief Description: Corpses exhumed from a mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna). The photo was apparently taken by a Soviet inquiry committee.
TGFH Registry No.: 16563p
TGFH Period: During World War II

YV Item ID: 77297
YV Title: Kovno, Lithuania, Jewish children's corpses in the ghetto 30/08/1944.
YV Archival Signature: 3497/8


My comment: The photo suggests an urban setting. It is likely to have been taken after the Soviets re-conquered Kovno in August 1944, as is also suggested by YV’s dating. Thus the photo was in all probability not taken at Ponary. This conclusion is further hardened by the aforementioned USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, where the photo appears on p. 745 with the following caption on the previous page, translated to German from Russian: "Graultaten[sic] der Hitlerschergen in Kaunas. Leichen von gequälten, verbrannten und erstickten Juden im Getto Kaunas" ("Atrocities of the Hitler thugs in Kaunas. Corpses of tortured, burned and choked Jews in the Kaunas Ghetto"). I informed TGFH about the Kaunas setting, whereupon they added the last period of the description, but maintained the photo’s attribution to Ponary.

15. Image

TGFH Catalog No.: 5908
TGFH Brief Description: The excavation of mass graves at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna) in July 1944.
TGFH Registry No.: 16643p
TGFH Period: During World War II
TGFH additional info: The excavation of mass graves at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna) in July 1944. The exhumation was carried out by the "Medical - Historical Committee of the Red Army for Discovering the Murders of the Germans." In the photo: the partisans Yechezkel Kremerman and Elchanan Telerant.

YV Item ID: 36271
YV Title: Ponary, Vilna, Poland, 1945, Exhumation.
YV Archival Signature: 2655
YV Name of submitter: Reuven Dafni


My comment: This photo is in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, page 819, upper left of four photos showing exhumed corpses. It is thus obviously related to the 26 August 1944 report of the Soviet forensic-medical commission, and thus belies Mattogno’s assertion that there are no photos in line with the contents of this report. Either Mattogno’s "examination" of the online photos from the TGFH and YV archives was very sloppy, or then he deliberately withheld from his readers information that contradicts his claims.

16. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5916
TGFH Brief Description: A bunker at the Ponary mass extermination site, which housed the Jewish prisoners who work it was to burn the corpses.
TGFH Registry No.: 30760p
TGFH Period: During World War II


17. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5953
TGFH Brief Description: A mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 34866p
TGFH Period: During World War II


18. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 5954
TGFH Brief Description: Dr. Alexander Libo beside a mass grave at Ponary near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 34867p
TGFH Period: After World War II
TGFH additional info: Dr. Alexander Libo beside a mass grave at Ponary near Vilnius (Vilna). Photographed on February 2, 1958.


19. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 26794
TGFH Brief Description: The bodies of children who were murdered at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius. The photo is a still from a Soviet documentary titled "The Battle for Our Soviet Ukraine" (1943).
TGFH Registry No.: 16562p


My comment:
This image is definitely not a photo taken at Ponary. It is a still from the Soviet documentary "Битва за нашу Советскую Украину" ("The Battle for our Soviet Ukraine"). In this video of the documentary, the full image of the dead children can be seen at 1:07:36. A still with the bodies of the children and an adult is also shown here. I informed TGFH about the provenance of this image, whereupon they added the last period of the description, but maintained the image’s attribution to Ponary.


20. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 26795
TGFH Brief Description: The bodies of children who were murdered at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).
TGFH Registry No.: 16561p


My comment:
This image is definitely not a photo taken at Ponary. It is a film still from the Soviet documentary "The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR", where it is part of a sequence showing a family killed by the Germans in Makeyevka, Ukraine. I informed TGFH about the mistaken caption, but they maintained it.

21. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 28734
TGFH Brief Description: Red Army soldiers standing beside the bunker at Ponary which housed members of the Sonderkommando who carried out the task of burning the victims' corpses.
TGHF Registry No.: 49946p
TGFH Period: During World War II


22. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 37545
TGFH Brief Description: One of the mass killing pits in Ponary, that has not undergone restoration.
TGFH Registry No.: 51935p Similar Items
TGFH Period: After World War II
TGFH Photographer: Anolik Benjiamin
TGFH additional info: One of the mass killing pits in Ponary,that has not undergone restoration.
Photographed on June 25, 2004


My comment: the stone lining of the pit’s walls suggests the pit in which the prisoners ordered to exhume and burn corpses were left. The piled-up sand suggests ongoing excavations.

23. Image
TGFH Catalog No.: 57223
TGFH Brief Description: Members of a Soviet Commission of Inquiry on a site visit to Ponary
TGFH Registry No.: 59338צ
TGFH Period: After World War II
TGFH additional info: Members of a Soviet Commission of Inquiry on a site visit to Ponary. Among those in the photo: several soldiers of the Soviet Red Army.


My comment: this is the upper of the three photos shown in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, page 837. It is thus obviously related to the August 1944 Soviet investigation.

24. Image
YV Item ID: 5060
YV Title: Ponary, Lithuania, A covered mass grave.
YV Archival Signature: 4435/8
YV Name of submitter: Kalanski Batya
YV Photographer: Kalanski Samuel


25. Image
YV Item ID: 79733
YV Title Ponary: Poland, Crowds of people standing near the corpses of people who were hanged. YV Archival Signature: 3380/417
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection
YV Source: Borowicz Collection


My comment: There is no evidence I know of that any public hangings took place at Ponary, so this photo was in all probability not taken at Ponary.

26. Image
YV Item ID: 1313
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Exhumation of corpses from ditches.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/3


My comment: A lesser Revisionist argued that this photo cannot have been taken at Ponary because it shows an open field whereas Ponary is a wooded area. I’d say that whether trees can be seen or not on a Ponary photograph depends on the photographer’s vantage point and the size of the area captured by the camera eye. A weightier argument (not made by said Revisionist) is that this photo is not one of the Soviet photos of Ponary excavations/exhumations shown in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, pp. 808-843. So it remains open to question whether this photo was taken at Ponary.

27. Image
YV Item ID: 46516
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, 1945, An exhumation.
YV Archival Signature: 4801/1
YV Name of submitter: Kremerman Yecheskel


My comment: This seems to be an enlargement of the upper part of photo nr. 15, the first of the publicly available Soviet excavation/exhumation photos omitted by Mattogno.

28. Image
YV Item ID: 31876
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, October 1965, A mass murder site of Jews.
YV Archival Signature: 987/8
YV Name of submitter: Govrin Yossi


29. Image
YV Item ID: 79659
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses in a trench.
YV Archival Signature: 3380/413
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection


My comment: The soil seems to be sandy, as it was/is at Ponary On the other hand, the emaciated state of most corpses suggests a site other than Ponary. But then, the Jews of the Vilnius ghetto were hardly well-fed. One might also argue that, although some of the corpses can be seen quite sharply, the corpses show no trace of gunshot wounds or blood (which of course is far harder to see on a black-and-white photograph than on a color photograph), except perhaps for a fairly large spot more or less in the stomach area of one corpse visible on the photo’s lower left (which seems to be partially clothed), even though the corpses’ position does not suggest that they were shot in the neck or the back of the head as they were lying face down. There is also horizontal line on the left that "cuts" though a naked emaciated corpse, whose upper part is partially still buried in soil, suggesting the possibility that the image is a composition of two photos. Additionally a fairly large part of the photo on the upper right seems to have been cut off for some reason. Last but not least, there is no visible sign of decomposition on the corpses. So there are several reasons to doubt that this is really a photo taken at the Ponary killing site, as captioned.

30. Image
YV Item ID: 80492
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses hanging from the gallows.
YV Archival Signature: 3380/419
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection
YV Source: Borowicz Collection


My comment: The photo shows several hanged bodies, both men and women, apparently on a winter day and close to what seem to be the houses of a town or village. There is no evidence I know about that any such hangings took place at Ponary. The photo probably shows people hanged as partisans or people suspected of being or having helped partisans, who were left hanging as a deterrent to whoever might have similar ideas.

31. Image
YV Item ID: 81217
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses hanging on the gallows.
YV Archival Signature: 3380/420
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection
YV Source: Borowicz Collection


My comment: Same as regarding images nos. 25 and 30.

32. Image
YV Item ID: 25199
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Exposed bodies of victims in a mass grave.
YV Archival Signature: 1798/9


My comment: Same as regarding image nr. 3.

33. Image
YV Item ID: 25070
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Bodies of victims that were massacred near the barbed wire fence.
YV Archival Signature: 1798/6


My comment: The barbed wire fence by the corpses suggests a camp setting. Whether it is Ponary is unclear for the same reasons that were stated regarding image nr.1.

34. Image
YV Item ID: 33
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses of murdered people.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/7


My comment: Same as regarding photo nr. 2. This seems to be a close-up of some of the corpses shown in photo nr. 2.

35. Image
YV Item ID: 3112
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses of Russian POWs.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/45
YV Name of submitter: Mrs Katsherginski


My comment: The crew-cut and attire suggests that these are indeed Soviet POWs shot down by their German captors. The barbed wire fence suggests a camp setting. But is this Ponary? If it is, the photo cannot be of Soviet provenance, otherwise the discovery at Ponary of unburied Soviet POWs killed in last-minute executions would have been mentioned in the aforementioned Soviet reports of July and August 1944. Maybe the photo was taken by one of the Ponary operators some time before the place was left and later found in his possession, but without further information this is a merely speculative possibility. The photo might just as well have been taken in the context of a revolt or escape attempt, or some other mass killing at a POW camp, of which there were quite a few according to German historian Christian Gerlach (see translated excerpts from Gerlach’s book Kalkulierte Morde here.

36. Image
YV Item ID: 1087
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/8
YV Name of submitter: Mrs Katsharginski


My comment: Same as regarding photo nr. 2.

37. Image
YV Item ID: 3902
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Corpses.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/21
YV Name of submitter: Mrs Katsherginski


My comment: Same as regarding photo nr. 3.

38. Image
YV Item ID: 69485
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Killing pit.
YV Archival Signature: 4577/589


My comments:

• The photo on the upper left also appears in the YV collection as item ID 78805, archival signature 3380/598, with the caption "Ponary, Poland, Jews digging a trench in which they were later buried, after being shot." This caption is clearly mistaken. The photo may show civilians commandeered by Soviet investigators to excavate mass graves in search of corpses, but Jews digging their own graves is out of the question. With the large intended fuel storage pits left behind by the Soviets, and with a bulldozer available to dig what additional graves were needed (Piotr Niwiński, "Ponary, the Place of “Human Slaughter”", p. 34), the people to be executed would hardly have been compelled to dig their own graves.

• The photo on the upper right, showing a conveyor belt used to lift corpses to the top of cremation pyres, was taken at Ponary.

• Regarding the other three photos, a Ponary setting is possible, but one should bear in mind the caveats mentioned regarding photo nr. 2 above (which is one of the two photos showing corpses in this collection of five photos).


39. Image
YV Item ID: 27571
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, The Soviet Army exhuming the bodies of those murdered in Ponary, August 1944.
YV Related Collection: Photos used in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. similar items
YV Archival Signature: 4613/918
YV Name of submitter: Moshe Shalvi
YV Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust - Hebrew Edition 1990


My comment: This is one of the photos from the August 1944 Soviet investigation shown in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, pp. 808-843. It is the upper left photo on p. 815. Mattogno doesn’t mention it, so what applies to his omission of photo nr. 15 above also applies to this omission.

40. Image
YV Item ID: 79149
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Doctors exhuming corpses.
YV Archival Signature: 3380/147
YV Name of submitter: Borowicz Collection
YV Source: Borowicz Collection


My comment: Similarity with the corpse examination photos copied in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304 suggests a Ponary setting, but the photo doesn’t match any of those photos. So a Ponary setting is possible but cannot be confirmed.

41. Image
YV Item ID: 292
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, July 1944, A medical committee at the exhumation of corpses.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/41
YV Name of submitter: Mrs Katsherginski


My comment: Same as regarding the previous photo. A Ponary setting is possible but cannot be confirmed.

42. Image
YV Item ID: 4480
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, July 1944, A medical committee at the exhumation of corpses.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/40
YV Name of submitter: Mrs Katsherginski


My comment: This is one of the photos from the August 1944 Soviet investigation shown in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, pp. 808-843. It is the upper right photo on p. 815, which is shown enlarged on p. 816. Mattogno doesn’t mention it, so what applies to his omission of photos nos. 15 and 39 above also applies to this omission.

43. Image
YV Item ID: 12220
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, A covered mass grave.
YV Archival Signature: 4435/7 similar items
YV Name of submitter: Kalanski Batya
YV Source: Kalanski Batya
YV Photographer: Kalanski Samuel


44. Image
YV Item ID: 4192
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Two bodies in a pit.
YV Archival Signature: 2074/5


My comment: Same as regarding photos nos. 2 and 34.

45. Image
YV Item ID: 9207529
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Postwar exhumation.
YV Archival Signature: 9227/5


My comment: This could be a Ponary photo, but as it is not among those included in USHMM Reel RG-14.101M.2304, pp. 808-843, the setting is uncertain.

46. Image
YV Item ID: 9207515
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Human bones inside a Coffin.
YV Archival Signature: 9227/4


My comment: Same as regarding the previous photo.

The conclusions of this exercise are the following.

1. The Ghetto Fighters’ House and Yad Vashem need to re-caption some images mistakenly captioned as pertaining to Ponary and (re)check the provenance of other photos regarding which a Ponary setting is uncertain or even unlikely.

2. Due to either extreme sloppiness or malicious intent, Mattogno omitted three photos in the TGFH and/or YV online collections that clearly pertain to the 1944 Soviet investigation of Ponary and thus contradict his claim that no photographs confirm or corroborate the Soviet forensic-medical commission’s statements in its 26 August 1944 report.

Coming up next: Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary, Part 4
The moderator was obviously afraid that the censored parts of my post might rattle "Revisionist" cages, especially that of "Revisionist" scion Carlo Mattogno.

Why he left some comments regarding imagers nos. 20 and 35 standing is hard to understand from his censor's perspective, especially as they contain links to articles on the Holocaust Controversies blog site or its reference library. Must have been an oversight. Maybe he'll realize it and delete the truncated post (like he has previously deleted already published posts).

Anyway, the CODOH moderator (aka "Hannover") has again shown how much his moderator slogan ("Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it") applies to "Revisionist" falsehoods.

Going for a walk now, will be back with more in an hour or so.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:45 pm
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:27 pm

Censored CODOH post # 156

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania.

Like its predecessor, this post was also subject to censorship deluxe, i.e. it was not wholly dropped into the memory hole but truncated beyond recognition, under the same mendacious pretext as post # 155.

Below is a reproduction of the post as it was posted (the parts cut out by the moderator are again highlighted by larger lettering).
Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary
Part 4


We now get to what are probably the most interesting images in the Yad Vashem collection of photos captioned as having been taken at Ponary.

OS 1: Image
YV Item ID: 22292
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen leading Jews to the murder site in the forest, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: A2725/22
YV Name of submitter: Dr. Krakowski
YV Source: Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
YV Credit: Bundesarchiv
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


OS 2: Image
YV Item ID: 26903
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen marching Jews, with their heads covered, to their deaths, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 4613/916
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


OS 2a: Image
YV Item ID: 22937
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militia leading Jews with hoods on their heads to the place of their execution, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: B2725/22
YV Name of submitter: Dr. Krakowski
YV Source: Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
YV Credit: Bundesarchiv
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


The 3 images are just 2 different photos, as image OS2a is obviously a close-up of the part on the left of photo OS2 on which hooded death candidates can be seen. Yad Vashem didn’t recognize this, and apparently neither did Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen and Volker Riess, the editors of the document collection "Schöne Zeiten" – Judenmord aus der Sicht der Täter und Gaffer, 1988 by S. Fischer GmbH, translated into English as "The Good Old Days" – The Holocaust as Seen by its Perpetrators and Bystanders. The enlargement OS2a is featured on page 39, the photos OS1 and OS2 on pp. 40-41 of "The Good Old Days". The collection also contains excerpts from the testimonies of three Wehrmacht servicemen of the 96th Infantry Division who witnessed mass killings at Ponary (pp. 38-39 and 42-45). The first of these is that of a driver surnamed Pflüger, taken on 18.6.1959 ("The Good Old Days", p. 283, archival reference: 207 AR-Z 14/58). The second is that of a co-driver named Hamann, taken on 5.6.1959 (ibid. p. 1263). The third is that of a bookkeeper by the name of (Otto) Schroff, taken on the same day (ibid. p. 1247). The text of all three excerpts are transcribed from "The Good Old Days" on this page. Pflüger, Hamann and Schroff also testified in the main proceedings at the trial of Dr. Alfred Karl Wilhelm Filbert (the commander of Einsatzkommando 9, which was in charge of the Vilna area until 9 August 1941 as mentioned in the Jäger Report) before the Berlin Court of Assizes (Landgericht. Their testimonies, along with that of another witness from the same division and a member of the Vilna Field Command Post, are mentioned in the judgment LG Berlin vom 22.6.1962, 3 PKs 1/62, published in JuNSV Bd.XVIII, Lfd. Nr 540 EK 9.
Pflüger, the only one of these witnesses addressed by Mattogno (GE2, p. 271) described the killing procedure he witnessed as follows (Klee et al, as above, pp. 38-39 and 42):

Together with some of my colleagues from my motorized column I followed this second group. As I recall, the NCOs Riedl, Dietrich, Schroff, Hamann, Locher, Ammann, Greule and possibly some others whom I can no longer remember came with us. After we had followed the group for about eight hundred to a thousand metres we came upon two fairly large sandpits. The path we had taken ran between them both. The pits were not joined but were separated by the path and a strip of land. We overtook the column just before we reached the pits and then stopped close to the entry to one of them (the one on the right). I myself stood about six to eight metres from the entry. To the left and right of the entry stood an armed civilian. The people were then led into the gravel [sic] pit in small groups to the right by the guards. Running round the edge of the pit there was a circular ditch which the Jews had to climb down into.
This ditch was about 1-5 metres deep and about the same again in width. Since the ground was almost pure sand the ditch was braced with planks. As the Jews were being led in groups into the pit an elderly man stopped in front of the entrance for a moment and said in good German, "What do you want from me? I'm only a poor composer." The two civilians standing at the entrance started pummeling him with blows so that he literally flew into the pit. After a short time the Jews had all been herded into the circular trench. My mates and I had moved up close to the entry to the pit from where we could see clearly that the people in the ditch were being beaten with clubs by the guards, who were standing at the side of the trench. After this ten men were slowly led out from the ditch. These men had already bared their upper torsos and covered their heads with their clothes....
I would also like to add that on the way to the execution area the delinquents had to walk one behind the other and hold on to the upper body of the man in front. After the group had lined up at the execution area, the next group was led across. The firing squad, which was made up of ten men, positioned itself at the side of the path, about six to eight metres in front of the group. After this, as far as I recall, the group was shot by the firing squad after the order was given. The shots were fired simultaneously so that the men fell into the pit behind them at the same time. The 400 Jews were shot in exactly the same way over a period of about an hour. The shooting happened very quickly. If any of the men in the pit were still moving a few more single shots were fired on them. The pit into which the men fell had a diameter of about fifteen to twenty metres and was I think five to six metres deep.
From our vantage point we could see into the pit and were therefore able to confirm that the (approximately) 400 Jews who had been shot the previous day were also in there. They were covered with a thin sprinkling of sand. Right on top, on this layer of sand, there were a further three men and a woman who had been shot on the morning of the day in question. Parts of their bodies protruded out of the sand. After about one hundred Jews had been shot, other Jews had to sprinkle sand over their bodies. After the entire group had been executed the firing-squad put their rifles to one side.


Mattogno argues that the procedure described by Pflüger was highly irrational. If I understood him correctly, he would in the executors’ place either have collected the victims in the center of the first pit to be shot down there, or shot them inside the collecting ditch at the side of the first pit from which they were taken in groups of ten to be shot in the second pit. The second procedure would have rendered said ditch unusable as a place to collect the victims for further executions unless the corpses were removed from there (which would have been a cumbersome undertaking). The first would create a dilemma as concerns the execution method. If 400 victims were shot one by one by a group of marksman inside the pit, those marksmen might encounter resistance from the death candidates inside the pit. If they were mowed down with automatic weapons inside the pit or from outside the pit, there would be no guarantee that all were dead, and besides such procedure would waste a lot of ammunition. Methods akin to Mattogno’s ideas seem to have been tried before it was decided that the method witnessed by Pflüger was the most expedient one, as on the one hand it was easy to control the death candidates inside the ditch at the sides of the first pit (easier than it they had been amassed in the center or kept outside that pit), while on the other hand those taken out in groups of ten (blindfolded obviously in order to render them more defenseless - after all those shot at the time of Pfüger’s observation seem to have been all adult males) could be killed with aimed shots by marksmen, thus making sure that they were dead and saving ammunition. Niwiński (as above, pp. 17f.) writes the following:

Due to lack of experience, the system of execution changed over time. Initially, people sentenced to death were brought in large groups y cars or trains. They were forced to stand at the existing pits and were shot with fixed machine guns. However, this did not guarantee that all of them would be dead and consumed a large amount of ammunition. It happened, especially in the initial period, that after some time some injured people managed to get out of the pits of death. After several weeks, the manner of killing was modified. Ten-person groups of convicts were brought to the place of execution. They had to take their outerwear off, and then stand facing the pit, with their backs to the firing squad consisting of ten riflemen. Older children lined up with adults, and smaller ones were held by their mothers. In the latter case, one rifleman pointed at the mother, and the other was to shoot the child. Sometimes, to save ammunition, small children were thrown into the pits alive.
Convicts were killed with single shots using machine guns or short rifles. Executioners were trained to ensure the effectiveness of shots. One of the witnesses of the crime, Stanisław Chomiczewski, stated that "before shooting, an officer presented charts showing human figure with the location of vital organs, which the soldiers taking part in the executions were to aim at. After a salvo of the firing squad, the officer would run up to the victims to check the accuracy of the shots according to previous instructions"11. If anyone would give signs of life, they were finished off by the rifleman previously assigned to them.


So it looks like the users initially tried a method such as suggested by Mattogno, but then got smart and adopted the more failsafe and economic method that was witnessed by Pflüger. Which means that Mattogno’s musings are more of the "Germans wouldn’t have done it that way" – nonsense that is a staple of Revisionist argumentation.

But Mattogno doesn’t stop at the nonsense. He spins the conjecture that Pflüger must have been shown the aforementioned photos (which he also thinks were three instead of two, and the provenance of which he doesn’t reveal) and, not knowing what else to say, improvised an improbable story. This is of course an accusation of dishonest behavior against Pflüger’s interrogators (if he had been shown the photographs, this and his related comments would have had to be stated in the interrogation record), and at the same time a revelation of Mattogno’s dishonesty, for he knows very well where those photos came from. They were taken by Pflüger’s comrade Otto Schroff, who in his testimony taken on 5.6.1959 described precisely when and from where he had taken these two photographs. Schroff describes a procedure akin to that described by Pflüger, except that his account (at least in the English translation, which may not be quite correct) suggests that the groups of ten death candidates were shot inside the second pit and not into that pit as per Pflüger’s testimony. The slight difference between Schroff’s and Pflüger’s description shows that neither testimony was in any way used to influence the other. Obviously aware of this, Mattogno withheld from his readers crucial information that contradicts his assertions or conjectures.

Bottom line, Mattogno’s performance in discussing the mass graves at Ponary is as fraught with ill-reasoning and falsehood as so many other claims and arguments of his that have been dissected on the Holocaust Controversies blog site. His book about the Einsatzgruppen accordingly promises to hold much further evidence that even the flagship of Revisionism is a poor researcher who doesn’t shrink from trying to take his readers for a ride.


There are two photos in the Yad Vashem archives showing scenes similar to those described by Pflüger, Hamann and Schroff, but apparently taken by someone other than Schroff (though one is captioned as being from Schroff), as Schroff only mentioned two photos in his testimony.

Image
YV Item ID: 100107
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Jews who were led to the place they will be executed by Lithuanian militiamen, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 75FO4
YV Credit: Yad Vashem
YV Places: Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days. At this site, near the city of Vilna, the Soviet authorities prepared huge pits for storing petrol tanks they still had not filled. During the Nazi occupation, starting 07/1941, they brought Jews, Gypsies, POWs, and Nazi opponents to these pits where they were executed.


OS 4? Image
YV Item ID: 100101
YV Title: Ponary, Poland. Two Jews just before their execution, surrounded by German soldiers, YV
YV June-July 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 75EO4


It would be interesting to know more about who took these photographs and when they were taken.

Coming up next: some comments about a "brilliant" ( :lol: ) post by Hannover.
Last edited by Roberto on Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:39 pm

Censored CODOH post # 157

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

My comments addressing "Elroy"'s eulogy ("Ha! Brilliant and well done." ) of an earlier post by "Hannover" were again treated the standard way, i.e. wholly dropped into the memory whole. And the pretext was of course the following:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"

Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. more yawns This forum is still waiting for your '100,000 Ponar corpses'.

Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:11 pm
See my comments about this blatant imbecility here.

Reproduction of censored post
Elroy wrote:
Hannover wrote:
donron wrote:FYI - the other so-called "mass graves" at Ponar can be seen here:

1. https://www.google.com/search?q=ponar+p ... 80&bih=955

Please note the photos of the fraudulent archaeologist Richard Freund conducting GPR scans of the alleged "mass graves."

Evidently, NOVA did a program on Ponar:

2. https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-19/ ... ape-tunnel

Video showing the fraudulent "archaeological investigation" of Ponar can be seen in the above link as well.
1. We see nothing of the kind.
All we see is small patches of land and alleged corpses which could have been from anywhere, any date, any cause of death by anyone, with no proof they are from Ponar or any alleged 'holocaust' site. It's really that simple. Such claims would be crushed in a legit court of law.

2. "Science confirms" nothing here, in fact the pretentious article is damning to the fake narrative.

Here we have some guys digging a hole for any number of possible reasons without any proof that the location is even Ponar or that what they are even digging is a 'mass grave'. Laughable, but all too typical.
As if those supposedly involved would have allowed photography of actions which are said to have been massive war crimes and very top secret.
Clearly anyone can caption a photo anyway they like.*

Image

This gives the game away utterly:
1. Last year, an international group of archaeologists found the legendary escape tunnel. 2. They didn’t want to disturb any human remains at the burial pits, so instead of digging, the archaeologists used radar and radio waves to scan beneath the ground. 3. What they found dovetailed exactly with the survivors’ verbal accounts.
Image
1. No they didn't, otherwise they would have excavated. We're talking about an alleged huge crime here,

2, What? This is supposed to be detached science? Nonsense. They didn't excavate because they knew there was no massive human remains.
Try that BS in a real court,

"The "Holocau$t Industry" in court:
'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, ... but, but, well, umm, we can't show the court. You must trust us, we're Zionists.' "


3. What we see is simply a soil anomaly of an isolated, single spot which gives no indication of being a lengthy "tunnel" ... that was supposedly dug with spoons. :lol:

* Anyone could caption this photo as "Nazi slave labor digs mass grave for Jews'.
Image
"Actually, it's "air raid precautions, 1940."

- Hannover

Science, rational thought, & logic simply demolish the 'holocaust' storyline.
And that's why there are Thought Crime Laws that imprison those who engage in free speech about it.
Truth is hate to those that hate the truth.
Ha! Brilliant and well done.

I don't suppose Roberto and fat boy will allow you to publish that on their "site"
??? ;) lol
So, Elroy, what exactly is to have been "brilliant" and "well done" here?

The revelation that Hannover has

a) A problem with his eyesight, and

b) Not bothered to do the slightest research about Ponary?

Some of the photos that can be viewed here show at least one the large circular pits at Ponary as it looks today (see here and here). Contrary to what Hannover assumes, the pit area is not just the area circled by stones in the middle but also the slightly sloped ground around it. If you think that’s small, please estimate the area of the outer and the inner circle. Then assume that the pit was originally 5-6 meters deep as recalled in eyewitness testimony. Then calculate the pit’s volume, taking into account the sloping of the walls due to the sandy consistency of the soil. Then estimate how many corpses could fit into that volume. Then post your results on this thread.

Other photos, namely these two, show at least one of those circular pits at the time when Wehrmacht soldier Otto Schroff (who took these photographs and testified about it before West German criminal investigators) observed a mass killing at Ponary. I addressed these photos in Part 4 of my Mattogno series posted on this thread.

What about Hannover’s remark that photos prove nothing all by themselves? That’s self-understood, and I still have to see a case for mass murder that is based on photographic evidence alone. The photos in the Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn also don’t tell us much about the massacre without the related expert reports, testimonies etc. that are included in this documentation. Duh!

Hannover’s repetitive blather about what a "legit" court of law would do? Hannover has amply shown that he knows as much about judicial procedures and requirements as a pig does about Sunday.

Is yet another of Hannover’s baseless accusations of fakery supposed to be "brilliant"? Actually it’s just boring.

Do you see "brilliance" in Hannover’s making a fuss about a photograph of men digging with shovels? Of course that photograph alone tells us little if anything about where and when it was taken and what (other than men digging with shovels) it shows. The Yad Vashem caption of this photo is clearly wrong, as I pointed out in Part 3 of my Mattogno series posted on this thread. So are a number of other Yad Vashem captions, mentioned in the same post. Big deal. Yad Vashem are obviously somewhat careless when it comes to captioning photos or accepting stated photo captions, but some Ponary photos on their site (which Mattogno conveniently omitted) are clearly part of the Soviets' documentation about their August 1944 investigation of Ponary, which is addressed in three of my four previous posts. I know that because I have looked at copies of photographs from this investigation, made available by Soviet authorities to prosecutors of the German Federal Republic. Four of these, of which three show exhumations, match photos captioned by Yad Vashem as having been taken at Ponary.

What else do we have? Hannover’s dismissing GPR scans as evidence on grounds that "otherwise they would have excavated"? Utter nonsense. Outside Revisionist conspiracy theories there are understandable reasons why archaeologists use non-invasive methods instead of excavating. One is that excavation may damage the evidence, whereas non-invasive methods do not. Another is that the site is a monument area, where you’re not supposed to dig just like you’re not supposed to dig at Arlington National Cemetery or any ACW cemetery. Yet another is that excavation in a place like Ponary may move human remains and thus hurt someone's religious feelings, in this case those of influential Orthodox Jews. Hannover obviously knows as much about archaeology as he does about judicial procedures.

Then there’s the "supposedly dug with spoons lol" appeal to incredulity. Digging in comparatively soft sandy soil with spoons, even with bare hands, is actually not a big problem. The problem that the escapees had (as described in detail by one of them) was stabilizing the tunnel’s walls to keep them from caving in, due to the very softness of the soil that made it easy to dig there. They eventually overcame the problem by using wooden boards. Mark that the tunnel was relatively short (it just had to reach a wooded area near the stone-lined pit in which the escapees were kept) and that the work took several months. Again, Hannover doesn’t know what he’s talking about. If you want better arguments against the feasibility of the tunnel, you’ll have to look up Mattogno’s latest piece of scripture, which my previous posts on this thread refer to (these posts are only the beginning of the fun I’ll have with that screed, by the way).

And last but not least, there’s the supposedly spectacular "revelation" that the aforementioned digging photo shows the digging of an air raid protection pit. I don’t think it does as the former pit is obviously being dug in soft sandy soil (hence the sloped walls) whereas the latter is being dug in more solid soil (hence the straight walls). Moreover the folks on the former photo don’t look like limeys or Germans to me, but rather like people from Eastern Europe. Not that any of this would be particularly relevant except for what it reveals about Hannover’s poor observation skills and thinking. The former pit is clearly not what Yad Vashem captioned it as being, a pit dug by Jews who would later be shot in that pit. With the huge circular pits from Soviet times (originally meant for fuel storage) already in place, and with machines available to dig whatever additional pits were necessary, no Jews would have to dig their own graves at Ponary, and there are no testimonies in this sense that I know about. This obviously mistaken caption by Yad Vashem, as I mentioned before, is only one out of several that I pointed out in Part 3 of my Mattogno series on this thread. If you want a really outrageous caption mistake, I can offer you a better example. The photo numbered 12 in Part 3. It’s from Dachau.

Bottom line, Hannover has produced a lot of largely irrelevant nonsense, as usual. If that’s what goes down as "brilliant" and "well done" among followers of the Revisionist faith, then Revisionism is in an even sorrier state than I thought it was.

Now, as concerns your last remark, could you please explain who "fat boy" is supposed to be and what "site" you are referring to? If you mean the Holocaust Controversies blog site, you'll shortly have the opportunity to post your and/or Hannover's wisdom in comments to my "Mattogno on the Ponary Mass Graves" series posted on this thread, of which there will also be a blog version. If you mean the RODOH forum, that is owned by a Revisionist who used to also be a CODOH poster until he got fed up with the moderation (read: censorship) at this place. On the RODOH forum we can discuss as much as you like, with no one hindering us in any way. Just drop me a note by PM is you want to discuss with me there.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:50 pm

Censored CODOH post # 158

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

This post, a response to the moderator's truncation of my post # 155, was silently dropped into the memory hole.

Reproduction of censored post
roberto wrote:[Note to Muehlenkamp about this post & others:
"Roberto:
You have been challenged to actually show us a verifiable excavations and the huge amount of human remains that you allege.
Your recent posting of various 'walls of text' which do not address those challenges are simply dodges and below the standards of this forum.
However, I have left the photos that you do think prove your claims about Ponar.
Cheers, M1"]
Again the "dodges" BS, Mr. Moderator?

First of all, the previous posts are not "dodges" but the previous two parts of a dissection of Mattogno's claims regarding the Soviet investigation of the Ponary mass graves (the report of which is fully quoted in English translation).

Second, I see that you have truncated my third post to render its context unrecognizable, among other things by removing my references to copies of Soviet photographs viewable in a USHMM/BAL file, which are one of the sources I used to examine which photographs captioned by YV as pertaining to Ponary are correctly captioned and which are not. You also cut off my mentions of Mattogno's dishonesty in omitting three Soviet exhumation photos of Ponary, at the end of Part 3. Plus my reference to an contemporary document mentioned by Mattogno, which is a shot in the Revisionist foot. Why, it even looks like every mention of Mattogno is gone (apparently you think he needs moderator protection). And let's see what else.

Bravo, Mr. Moderator! Your behavior is that of a dishonest censor who is afraid of inconvenient arguments ("Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it", remember)?

Third, what claims of mine are you talking about? The claim about the death toll of Ponary that is attributed to me on this thread I don't remember having made. The German documentary evidence I have looked at, as well as a bystander's diary conveniently omitted by Mattogno, suggest a far lower death toll.

And last but not least, you are grossly misrepresenting my arguments when claiming that I submit photographs as (the) proof of mass murder at Ponary. Demanding that claims about mass murder be proven by photographs is as idiotic as arguing that photographs prove such claims. Mass murder evidence consists of many elements, of which photographs are just a small and relatively unimportant part, already due to the obvious limitations of the camera eye. Try proving 4,143 corpses on hand of the photos included in the "Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn", good luck. And that's one of the two Soviet killing sites that have been subject to forensic investigation at all.

Just keep on censoring and lying, Mr. Moderator. Every demonstration that Revisionist lies need to be shielded from debate is welcome.

Below I report Part 3 of my Mattogno series as it was originally posted.

[reproduction of censored post # 155]
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Roberto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Censored CODOH post # 159

CODOH thread: Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

This post, a response to the moderator's truncation of my post # 156, had the same fate as its predecessor.

Reproduction of censored post
roberto wrote:[Note to Muehlenkamp about this post & others:
"Roberto:
You have been challenged to actually show us a verifiable excavations and the huge amount of human remains that you allege.
Your recent posting of various 'walls of text' which do not address those challenges are simply dodges and below the standards of this forum.
However, I have left the photos that you do think prove your claims about Ponar.
Cheers, M1"]

We now get to what are probably the most interesting images in the Yad Vashem collection of photos captioned as having been taken at Ponary.

OS 1: Image
YV Item ID: 22292
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen leading Jews to the murder site in the forest, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: A2725/22
YV Name of submitter: Dr. Krakowski
YV Source: Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
YV Credit: Bundesarchiv
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


OS 2: Image
YV Item ID: 26903
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen marching Jews, with their heads covered, to their deaths, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 4613/916
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


OS 2a: Image
YV Item ID: 22937
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militia leading Jews with hoods on their heads to the place of their execution, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: B2725/22
YV Name of submitter: Dr. Krakowski
YV Source: Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
YV Credit: Bundesarchiv
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


There are two photos in the Yad Vashem archives showing scenes similar to those described by Pflüger, Hamann and Schroff, but apparently taken by someone other than Schroff (though one is captioned as being from Schroff), as Schroff only mentioned two photos in his testimony.

Image
YV Item ID: 100107
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Jews who were led to the place they will be executed by Lithuanian militiamen, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 75FO4
YV Credit: Yad Vashem
YV Places: Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days. At this site, near the city of Vilna, the Soviet authorities prepared huge pits for storing petrol tanks they still had not filled. During the Nazi occupation, starting 07/1941, they brought Jews, Gypsies, POWs, and Nazi opponents to these pits where they were executed.


OS 4? Image
YV Item ID: 100101
YV Title: Ponary, Poland. Two Jews just before their execution, surrounded by German soldiers, YV
YV June-July 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 75EO4


It would be interesting to know more about who took these photographs and when they were taken.
The above is what "M1" left of my post Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary, Part 4. References to Mattogno and discussion of his arguments removed (apparently the scion of Revisionism needs moderator protection). Quotes of eyewitness testimonies and secondary sources providing the context of the photographs addressed have also been removed. Only the photographs have been left, as if I had made the claim (which would be as idiotic as Mr. Moderator's corresponding demand) that mass murder can be proven by photographs alone (try doing that regarding the Soviet Katyn killings, Mr. Moderator).

Now here's Mattogno on the Mass Graves at Ponary, Part 4 as originally posted (minus the ironic end remark that must have hurt Mr. Moderator's tender feelings).

[reproduction of censored post # 156]
Censored post # 160, on the same thread, was just a short remark about the moderator's practices:
Moderator wrote:Roberto:
You have been challenged to actually show us a verifiable excavations and the huge amount of human remains that you allege.
Your recent posting of various 'walls of text' which do not address those challenges are simply dodges and below the standards of this forum.

However, I have left the photos that you do think prove your claims about Ponar.

Cheers, M1
Your final "Moderator" BS because you morph into Hannover and produce Hannover BS, right? :lol:
And of course some "Hannover" BS came soon thereafter, leading to censored CODOH post # 161:
Hannover wrote:Roberto's 'pictures' are simply hilarious and indicative of extreme desperation for something, anything to distract from the facts.
Anyone could and obviously did make, stage such fakes and call them what they want.

As I previously posted:
Anyone could caption this photo as "Nazi slave labor digs mass grave for Jews'.

Image

Actually, it's "Air raid precautions, 1940." :lol:
Note that even Roberto admits that many are fakes, miscaptioned, etc. In trying to appear 'reasonable' he actually issues a cry for help. :lol:

To summarize Roberto Muhlenkamp's last two posts, actually no different from his previous embarrassing attempts, we see more of the same communist / Zionist creations:

Photos of who knows where?
Who knows when?
By who knows who?
Some are just piles of clothing & dirt that Roberto hopes will go unnoticed.
Many are simply be war time victims utterly unrelated to the impossible '6M Jews & 5M others'.

And oh those Bolsheviks / communists, they did a whole lot of killing ...'What the hell, comrades, let's just call them 'holocaust victims and avoid the blame'. :lol:

Then, on one hand Roberto and the "Holocau$t Industry" say that the German made all the alleged Jew remains magically disappear, then they turn around and present faked photos of alleged remains that they previously claimed were disappeared. :lol:

But then that's what happens when Zionist Roberto and those like him try to defend an impossible storyline.
'Once they lie, they must continue to lie.'

Roberto Muehlenkamp has been challenged to provide this forum with verifiable excavations of a claimed 100,000 at Ponar and the remains of an alleged 100,000 at Ponar.
So what do we get? Faked & staged photos with no proof whatsoever that they depict what they claim to depict.
It all could be solved right now, today, 2 guys, a shovel & a video camera and issue settled. :lol:
That won't happen, because it never happened.

Now see what a real excavation looks like here:
'Katyn facts: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn'
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=758

And this, as posted by 'Revisionist':
This is German footage of the Katyn massacre site.
Yet we see nothing like that from the lying "Holocau$t Industry".
We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
The usual copy and paste blah, blah, blah. Off-topic except as concerns Ponary, and as concerns Ponary it has been addressed in my censored and semi-censored posts and in my reply to Elroy (which also made "M1" nervous enough to censor it. :lol:

My reply to Elroy, once again:

[reproduction of censored post # 157}

How about responding to my comments about your "brilliant" stuff, Hannover?

Too hard for you to handle?

Is yelling "fakes", "show me so-and-so many corpses", "challenged to do this and that", "dodged this and that" etc., like a broken record, the best you can do?

Truly pathetic. No wonder you're so afraid of real open debate.

And the next thing you’ll do is open another of your "Muehlenkamp this, Muehlenkamp that" threads, right? :lol:
"Hannover" has probably opened another of his "Muehlenkamp this, Muehlenkamp that" threads in the meantime, but I couldn't care less. "Revisionist" flagship Mattogno is more interesting than ridiculous little broken-record moron "Hannover".

Anyway, "Hannover"'s post was followed by another eulogy from his fellow cretin "Elroy". The fellow may be a back-slapping sock-puppet of "Hannover", at least his following "Hannover" like an obedient doggy suggests that.

Another of "Hannover"'s obedient doggy's is "borjastick", to whose post on the same thread I responded with censored CODOH post # 162:
borjastick wrote:Can anyone shed any light on what the location of pictures 1,2,2a is? It looks like some very odd kind of excavation, presumably for some civil engineering process and certainly not what one would dig to use as a grave site. Presumably this is still there and would give up its secrets were it to be dug over somewhat.

Not sure if the pictures of men with head covers on is a work of fakery propaganda or something altogether odd. Strange that when there is a shot which doesn't show German soldiers those in it with guns are automatically assumed to be working for the Germans, never that they might be Russians killing Russians or similar.
Want to know more about those photos, borjastick?

Here's the context (full text of one of my posts on this thread that was truncated beyond recognition by the moderator):

[reproduction of censored post # 156
This post was censored soon after it had been posted, with the usual silly excuse:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"

Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. Still no excavation of the alleged 100,000 corpses shown .... as requested. No dodging or leave the thread See guidelines you agreed to. Best regards, M1.

Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:35 am
Yeah, respond to "challenge" or "leave the thread". One of the most dishonest debating rules ever made, especially as applied by "M1" aka "Hannover". For it allows any "Revisionist" poster to remove his opponent from any discussion by simply issuing one of those idiotic "challenges" of the "show me 100,000 corpses" variety. If the rule were something like "if challenged to produce evidence, you must either produce it or expressly acknowledge that you cannot provide the exact evidence requested", that would be one thing. but censoring every subsequent post just because the poster in question has not responded to a blatantly unreasonable "challenge" is (to borrow an expression used by Wilfried "neugierig" Heink, may he rest in peace, in a similar context), beyond even chutzpah.

So much for the latest episode of the CODOH Memory Hole Festival. There will be more after I have taken care of matters with a higher priority.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:23 am

I agree with the general views of Roberto Muehlenkamp as to the shameful censorship by Hannover at CODOH. Most, if not all, of the censorship of my posts was, however, not because I expressed pro-Holocaust views but simply because I disagreed with Robert Faurisson's "CRACKPOT" pseudo-technical nonsense--the alleged danger of exploding cyanide being just one issue. A character using the name "Breker" seemed to be the most ignorant but determined of the CODOH crowd. How many of my posts were actually deleted in total, I do not know--but I am sure it was many dozens. Many of my posts were deleted simply because I supposedly failed to fully explain how masses of gassed corpses could be disposed of after being gassed to death. One of many answers I gave was to use lime-kilns--but that was not enough for the CODOH bigots. CODOH's excuses were an outrageously assanine line of argument--but Hannover had nothing better. He lied repeatedly about what he was doing--and that continues.

When I complained to Bradley Smith and others at the time about the obvious censaorship at CODOH, they did nothing--absolutely nothing and said nothing! The very name of their organization--Committee for Open Debate of the Holocaust--was an obvious LIE! I even complained to Germar Rudolf who had done some of the essential technical work for CODOH--but he insisted he had no influence on CODOH. I do not think he even tried. So, the disaster that is CODOH has many culprits. Clearly, when some people, even within the revisionist crowd have no credible arguments, they resort to the exact same underhanded, cowardly and foul methods that "exterminationists" use all the time. For them, they have found a new religion--damn them all.

Holocaust revisionism was taken over in 1988 by a corrupt gang of half-wits and bigots which included Faurisson, Mark Weber, Ernst Zuendel, and Fred Leuchter. In a recent interview of myself by Jim Rizoli, Rizoli actually compared Leuchter to Jesus Christ for not having any real credentials as an "engineer"--after all, Jesus had no credentials as a rabbi either. The pernicious influence of Willis Carto, a congenital liar, thief and all-out ignoramus--should be recognized as well. In spite of his obvious shortcomings, Carto had a knack for grabbing people's money. It's high time for sane and serious holocaust revisionists to reorganize.

Already in 1982 I had shown many "Gas Chambers" that the Germans certainly could have used for mass murder of countless masses of Jews: http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html It was obvious to me and it still is obvious that the Germans could have done it--but for Faurisson, the mere suggestion that the Germans, of all people, could have possibly carried it out was IMPOSSIBLE. The utter foolishness and "insanity" of Faurisson's view, now shared by many "revisionists," shocks me as much today as ever.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!

Werd
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Werd » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:45 pm

Fritz,

Germar told me that he doesn't touch CODOH because Hannover is just too heavy handed and he doesn't want to get involved with that.

Frankie
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival (Part 2)

Post by Frankie » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:02 pm

Werd wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:45 pm
Fritz,

Germar told me that he doesn't touch CODOH because Hannover is just too heavy handed and he doesn't want to get involved with that.
Except that Hannover is not the moderator.
And both Werd and Berg have been set straight in this thread,
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7322
name a specific "holocaust" topic censored / banned here

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