Hannover wrote:More bizarre photos from paid Zionist propagandist, Roberto Muehlenkamp.
So now I'm even "paid"? "Hannover" is even more delusional than I thought. In fact, he seems to be delirious.
Hannover wrote:More examples of: 'Trust us, we're Zionists' fakes.
More examples of moronic claims of "fakes" that Hannover cannot demonstrate to be "fakes", actually.
Notice that the surroundings do not resemble the alleged mass burial site, see OP.
The OP shows a single grave at Ponary, one out of three, as it looks today. It doesn’t show any overall view of the Ponary site, let alone a view of that site as it looked in 1944. So how can Hannover tell that the photo above doesn’t show a scene from Ponary? Does he have divining powers? Did little birdie tell him so?
Hannover wrote:So why are these 'victims of Germans' not buried, hidden from view, made to disappear?
Probably because there was no longer any time to do so, as the execution was performed shortly before the Soviet troops arrived. The last executions at Ponary (not of Jews as there were none anymore, but of non-Jewish prison inmates) took place on 3-4 July 1944. The Soviets had essentially retaken Vilnius by 13 July 1944. The killers were understandably in a hurry to get away, and no longer thought of burying the bodies. Such also happened elsewhere. At a prison in Rostov, Russia, for instance. And in the Lublin Castle prison in Poland. And at the Sonnenburg prison near Küstrin (many of those killed were Luxembourgers who had been forcibly recruited into the Wehrmacht and deserted; they are commemorated in Luxembourg to this day). Google "for the atrocities committed by german-fascists in the ussr" to view the photos and read about the background of these photos.
Hannover wrote:The Zionist lie about Ponar is that 100,000 were dumped into a mass gave. That's 100,000 !
There is no such thing as a "Zionist lie about Ponar", but "Hannover"’s allegation that the bodies of those killed at Ponary are claimed to have been dumped into a single mass grave is a lie. "Hannover" knows very well (from my response to his OP and my response to his second post on this thread) that the bodies were dumped into several mass graves. At least three of them quite big, as they were pits dug by the Soviets meant to be fuel deposits, prior to the German invasion.
Hannover wrote:The laughable & impossible 'holocau$t' storyline claims that the Germans hid / magically disappeared all the corpses.
Another lie, or then Hannover again doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Nobody claims that the Germans "magically disappeared all the corpses". Even at places where the corpse were cremated they left a lot of traces behind, cremation remains and incompletely burned corpses or parts of corpses. And it is well known that cremation by no means happened at all German killing sites. Mass graves pertaining to massacres by mobile killing units in the USSR were found full of decomposed or decomposing corpses that had not been burned. And at some sites the Germans didn’t even have the time to bury the corpses, or didn’t care to do so. Civilians massacred in the course of anti-partisan operations in Belarus, or their remains after they had been burned alive together with the wooden houses in which they lived or a local barn or church, seem to have just been left lying around. There is even a recorded complaint by a high-ranking German official to a higher-ranking official about this.
But yet panic stricken Roberto produces picture which contradict the very story line he tries to promote.
Actually Hannover is the one who comes across as panic-stricken, for that is what becomes apparent from his ever more nonsensical verbiage and the hysterical giggling that accompanies his ignorant and/or mendacious remarks. I for my part can assure Hannover that I’m cool as a cucumber, even enjoying the debunking of his primitive nonsense.
Israel's Yad Vashem says:
Title Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen leading Jews to the murder site in the forest, 1941.
This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.
Hannover is so confused that he got one of the photos wrong. Or then he is lying again.
The upper photo, the one that shows a line of corpses, is not attributed to Otto Schroff. Neither did I claim it was. The photo probably shows victims of last-minute executions by the Germans before leaving Ponary, which were found by the Soviets arriving soon afterward.
The lower photo, which shows a part of the procedure by which Jews and other "delinquents" were killed in 1941, was indeed taken by Otto Schroff, a bookkeeper in the 96th Infanty Division of the Wehrmacht. But the caption on the Yad Vashem site did not originate with Yad Vashem. It comes from a deposition by Schroff before criminal justice authorities of the German Federal Republic in June 1959 and is shown, along with other photos and a quote of Schroff’s deposition in which he described the scene he had witnessed and the photographs he had taken, in the document collection "Schöne Zeiten": Der Judenmord aus der Sicht der Täter und Gaffer
, edited by Ernst Klee, Willi Dreßen (a former prosecutor of the German Federal Republic’s Central Office for the Prosecution of Nazi crimes) and Volker Rieß, which was translated into English as The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders
. The translation can be bought via Amazon
. The translated testimonies of Schroff and two other Wehrmacht soldiers from the same unit who witnessed mass killing at Ponary (a driver named Pflüger and a co-driver named Hamann) can be found on pp. 38 – 45 of my copy of this book, and the photos taken by Schroff, which are obviously included in the prosecution office’s file containing his deposition, are shown on pp. 40-41 of that book.
Of course Hannover knows the history of these photos’ provenance. I wrote about it in my previous post responding to Hannover on this thread, and IIRC also in my response to Hannover’s OP.
But the storyline says that 'exterminations' were top secret operations, no records allowed; but now we're told that countless Germans simply disobeyed orders and took photos galore.
The supposed "storyline" does not exist outside the fantasies of Hannover, whose hysterical giggling is again duly noted. The unpleasant fact that German soldiers and other onlookers witnessed mass executions, and sometimes took photographs thereof, was made public by Klee et al as far back as 1988. There were complaints about such practices by Wehrmacht commanders and instructions to refrain from taking photos of executions, suggesting that this had become a general problem. Even the killers themselves sometimes took photos of what they had done and showed them to their families and/or friends. One of them, Max Taubner, was even subjected to a criminal procedure (also mentioned by Klee et al) for having done that. All this has been known for so long that it speaks volumes about Hannover’s ignorance (or bad faith) that be pretends to know nothing about it.
Hannover wrote:How do we know they were killed?
How do we know they were Jews?
From the testimonies of Pflüger, Hamann and Schroff, and from German documents (two Operational Situation Reports and the Jäger Report) that mention mass killings of Vilnius Jews. The two OSR’s were mentioned in my response to Hannover’s OP, where I also showed a facsimile of the Jäger Report. The earlier of the OSR’s, nr. 21, speaks of 500 Jews and other undesirables being liquidated every day. It refers to the period before Jäger’s Einsatzkommando
3 took over the Vilnius area from Einsatzkommando
9. The Jäger Report in turn mentions the killing of several ten thousand Vilnius Jews (I haven’t yet done the exact adding, but this is what I estimate the daily figures should add up to) until 1 December 1941, the date of the report. Additional evidence about mass killings at Ponary comes from eyewitness testimonies by Lithuanians quoted in a brochure in Lithuanian, Polish and English written by Polish scholar Niwiński, which I also referred and linked to in my response to Hannover’s OP and in my response to Hannover’s next post on this thread. And from the Ponary Diary of Kazimierz Sakowicz, also mentioned in my response to Hannover’s OP.
Hannover wrote:So where are these additional 400 corpses? They claim to know the exact site.
Knowing the site and witnessing mass killing at this site was one thing, taking photographs of the procedures from start to finish as well as the stiffs was another. Schroff obviously didn’t feel sufficiently safe to take more than those two pictures he took. And photographing the stiffs would have required his entering or standing on the edge of the mass grave, which would hardly have been allowed by the killers. So Hannover’s question is a no-brainer, like so many others. An better question would be what, if not the preliminaries of an execution in batches of ten, Schroff’s photos are supposed to be showing. A close-up of one of the photos, which Hannover didn’t show:
even reveals that the individuals being taken to what Hannover claims was not the place where they would be killed (where else then, Hannover?) were hooded. Why the hooding, Hannover?
Another alleged mass grave at Ponar.
Nope, I didn’t allege that this specific depression was a former grave, though it may well have been part of one such grave. My argument was that the uneven nature of the soil in the forest suggests excavation, which in turn suggests the presence of further graves (also mentioned by Niwiński) besides the circular ones, now of course covered up, that can be seen (or some of which can be seen) on the site today according to this page
, which contains quotes of Pflüger’s, Hamann’s and Schroff’s testimonies as translated in The Good Old Days
(which I also referred to in my) OP. One other of those circular mass graves (another than the one shown in Hannover’s OP) can be viewed here
(the photo is part of the Wikipedia page about Ponary
But wait, didn’t Hannover write above that the victims of mass killings at Ponary are claimed to have been dumped into a single mass grave? Now here’s he’s writing about another "alleged" mass grave. Hannover managed to contradict himself in one and the same post, which indicates his being quite confused and, to use one of his self-projecting expressions, desperate.
Hannover wrote:Simple, two guys with shovels could solve the entire matter. But nope, no digging allowed there.
Digging is not allowed at any
monument site, be it a site of mass killing by the Nazis or the Soviets (do you think it’s allowed to dig at the Katyn memorial site, Hannover?), a monument to war victims (do you think, Hannover, that it’s allowed to dig at Arlington National Cemetery, at a cemetery from the American Civil War or at a cemetery holding German soldiers killed in World War I or World War II?) or any other monument to victims or human catastrophes. So the second sentence of the above-quoted paragraph is another no-brainer.
The same applies to the first sentence, which suggests that Hannover doesn't know anything about excavations of mass grave sites (which require a larger labour force besides supervising criminal investigators, forensic anthropologists or archaeologists).
However if Hannover believes that it takes just "two guys with shovels" to dig up a former mass grave and see what is there, what’s keeping him from going there with another Revisionist digger and do some digging? I’ll be glad to come along to photograph and film such endeavor. In fact, I have posted a challenge/invitation to Hannover in this sense.
Hannover need not be afraid of laws against Holocaust denial in Lithuania, for its unlikely that anyone there ever heard of him (especially as he only posts under an alias), and besides Lithuanian authorities could only take any measures against him based on laws against Holocaust denial if he should commit an act of public denial on Lithuanian soil. Digging up a mass grave would not be such act – Hannover and his digging companion are likely to be considered robbery diggers/looters if they should be caught. And getting caught at Ponary is unlikely, because the site is not guarded as far as I know. There is a museum there, but it’s closed on Sundays, and it's highly unlikely that there will be anybody around the place at Sunday, especially as its location is quite remote.
So what is Hannover waiting for to go to Ponary on a Sunday and do the digging he claims would "solve the matter"?
Financing the trip should also be no problem, as it should be easy to find a rich Revisionist (for instance the father of a Revisionist lady who used to participate in my discussions with Greg Gerdes on the VNN forum, and who was supposed to meet me at Sobibór along with Gerdes on 15.10.2008
– she claimed to be from a well-to-do family that could even afford her travelling with bodyguards).
So again, Hannover, what are you waiting for to do the digging you clamor for
Hannover wrote:Roberto has not and cannot show us any actual excavations at Ponar, not one.
Actually I have shown photos of Soviet excavations/exhumations at Ponary, which Hannover even copied and made a fuss about in one of his posts on this thread. But even if there were no such photos, that would be highly irrelevant. There are no photos regarding a great many mass crimes in history, including the overwhelming majority of Soviet crimes (which I’m sure Hannover has no doubt about ). So what? (Actually there is far more photographic documentation regarding Nazi crimes during World War II than there is regarding Soviet crimes, but that’s another story.)
Hannover wrote:He cannot show us 100,000 corpses that are alleged to be there.
First of all, most of the corpses "alleged to be there" are there as cremation remains, which are rather difficult to show on photographs (I presume that by "show" you mean "visual material only"; if you should also accept other documentary as well as eyewitness testimonies, like historians and legit courts of justice in democratic states do, please let me know).
Second, the "show us 100,000 corpses" is another no-brainer, unless you can explain how one is supposed to "show" 100,000 corpses on photographs. Just how many photographs would that require, assuming that every photograph shows the largest number of corpses you can show to be visible on any photograph (regardless of the context of that photograph)? Let’s assume it is 100 stiffs, though I don’t know of many photographs on which you can see that many (or more) stiffs together. So showing 100,000 stiffs, assuming that all of them had been unearthed (and placed exactly where, Hannover?) would take 1,000 photographs.
Do you know of any collection of 1,000 photographs that shows 100,000 stiffs, Hannover? Moreover at a specific place and pertaining to specific events at that place?
I don’t. In fact, I submit that if one were to add all stiffs portrayed on all photographs in existence showing stiffs from World War II, military or civilian, one would arrive at a low five-digit figure of pictured stiffs at most. Do the exercise, Hannover. Collect all photographs of World War II stiffs you can find, on the internet or elsewhere. Then add up the stiffs and tell me the number. Maybe you will then realize just how idiotic your demand to be "shown" 100,000 stiffs is.
Documenting mass crimes and other historical events is not done by photographing all the stiffs, even where (as is rarely the case) all stiffs are exhumed. It is done on hand of whatever evidence is available, including documents, demographic data (in case of mass killings so large as to have demographic impact, even if only at a local level), eyewitness testimonies and perhaps (but not necessarily) excavation/exhumation reports and photographs illustrating such reports.
That applies even to the German Katyn investigation you proclaim to be the standard that must be met to prove a mass crime (Uncle Joe Stalin, who you thus reduce to a mass murderer of mere Pinochet format, would be very grateful to you for that). Add up all the stiffs shown on photos included in the "Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn", and then tell me how many of the 4,143 stiffs exhumed by the Germans at Katyn you see on all these photographs together (assuming that no two or more photographs show the same stiffs).
Hannover wrote:Roberto cannot show us an official, verifiable forensic report on any excavation at Ponar, but he does show corpses which contradict the impossible 'holocau$t' narrative
Photos of people killed by Germans during World War II who were not buried and/or cremated may contradict what Hannover would like the "'holocau$t' narrative" to be, but they do not contradict the actual, well-substantiated and generally accepted narrative of crimes committed by Nazi Germany and its European allies during World War II, including but not limited to the genocide of Europe’s Jews. About that actual narrative Hannover seems to know precious little, if you give him the benefit of assuming that he’s not just lying.
As to the "official, verifiable forensic report" about the Soviet investigations at Ponary, there is no reason to doubt that such report exists in Russian archives. Just because it’s not available on the internet and cannot be shown on the fly by a poster on a discussion forum doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. As we’re at it, how about a joint trip to the GARF in Moscow, Hannover? I don’t think they send anything by post or e-mail, but if we go there and ask nicely for what we want they may seek it out for us and even allow us to take copies. And if they tell us they cannot find a report about Ponary, you will have scored a point. Are you game for such undertaking, Hannover?
And as we’re at it, what’s the Revisionist narrative of what happened to the "alleged" victims of Nazi crimes during World War II? Is there any? And if so, what is it, and what evidence is there to support it? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Hannover wrote:The corpses he does show are laughably labeled by Zionists / Communists to mean whatever they want, with no proof that they are Jews, no proof that they are from WWII, no proof that the Germans are responsible, all of which are easily seen to be from sites which do not even resemble Ponar.
The "labeled by Zionists / Communists to mean whatever they want" remains unsubstantiated nonsense.
The "no proof that they are Jews, no proof that they are from WWII, no proof that the Germans are responsible" is a ridiculous no-brainer.
How do expect a photo alone
to provide "proof that they are Jews"? By showing that the male stiffs have circumcised penises? To the extent that such close-up photographs could be taken (which would require fresh as opposed to decomposed bodies let alone skeletons), they wouldn’t prove the victims’ ethnicity (they might as well be Muslims, like some of the "Asiatics" among Soviet POWs that the Nazis executed before they realized that it was counterproductive).
How do you expect a photo of stiffs from a mass grave alone
to prove that it was taken during World War II, and that the Germans did the killing? Even if the photo showed someone in a German World War II uniform standing next to a heap of stiffs or shooting at people, the photo alone would not prove a World War II context and/or perpetration of the crime, but further evidence (documents and/or eyewitness testimonies) would be required.
As to the "easily seen to be from sites which do not even resemble Ponar", how do you know what the Ponary site looked like between 1941 inclusive and 1944 inclusive? From a single photograph showing a circular mass grave as it looks now? If so, you must have divining powers, or then a little birdie that whispers into your ear.
As we’re at it, what is Ponary supposed to have been between 1941 and 1944, in the Revisionist book?
And what’s the evidence that it was that?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
Hannover wrote:This is too easy.
You mean debunking your nonsense? That’s a piece of cake indeed.
Hannover wrote: Roberto Proof:
'Hey, I have a Big Foot in my garage!
Trust me, I have a garage.'
Utter nonsense as concerns the proof of Nazi mass crimes I have presented, but entirely appropriate as concerns Hannover’s conspiracy theories about a monstrous, monumental and yet invisible fake-producing and evidence-manipulating conspiracy by those "Zionists" he sees in every corner. The pot is again calling the kettle black.