heroes of Charlottesville

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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Werd »

..continued in the EU thread in "Siberian Exile."


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Nessie
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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Nessie »

Here is the link to the original article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40978515

just so everyone knows been-there is at his copying and pasting to make it look like he has had an original thought, again :roll:
been-there wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:16 pm
Should Washington and Jefferson monuments [also] come down?
By Jude Sheerin • BBC News, Washington • 18 August 2017

President Donald Trump's argument that the removal of Confederate statues is a slippery slope to changing history has recharged the perennial debate about America's tormented racial legacy.
On Tuesday, regarding the rebel general's monument that was a flashpoint for last Saturday's violent rally in Virginia he asked reporters:
"So this week it's Robert E Lee. I wonder, is it George Washington next week? And is it Thomas Jefferson the week after?"

Let's put aside for a moment the irony that Lee may well have supported Charlottesville's plans to remove his bronze likeness, given that he urged the country to "obliterate the marks of civil strife" and refrain from erecting such monuments.
As President Trump pointed out, George Washington was a slaveholder.
So might the stone obelisk dedicated to the father of the nation, looming over the heart of his eponymous capital city, be the next battleground in the US culture wars?
Or even Mount Rushmore?

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Washington conceded the system of human bondage that underpinned the economy of 18th Century Virginia was a "wicked, cruel and unnatural trade".
He was the only founding father and commander-in-chief to liberate his slaves - he owned more than 300 - when he died.

But as Ron Chernow's magisterial biography Washington: A Life makes clear, while he lived, the nation's first president extracted his pound of flesh from those whom he preferred to call his "servants", or "family".
Washington saw himself as a benevolent master, but he did not tolerate suspected shirkers on his farm, even when they were pregnant, elderly or crippled.

He once scolded a slave who pleaded that he could not work because his arm was in a sling.
As Chernow writes, Washington picked up a rake and demonstrated how to use it with one arm.
"If you use your hand to eat," he said, "why can't you use it to work?"

He was not averse to shipping refractory slaves to the West Indies, such as one man named Waggoner Jack, where the tropical climate and relentless toil in sugarcane brakes tended to abbreviate life expectancy.

"There are few Negroes who will work unless there be a constant eye on them," Washington advised one overseer, warning of their "idleness and deceit" unless treated firmly.

Washington wholly approved in 1793 when one of his estate managers, Anthony Whitting, whipped a slave named Charlotte. Martha, the president's wife, had deemed her to be "indolent".
Washington wrote, "Your treatment of Charlotte was very proper, and if she or any other of the servants will not do their duty by fair means, or are impertinent, correction (as the only alternative) must be administered."

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Washington badgered Whitting to keep another slave named Gunner hard at work to "continue throwing up brick earth". Gunner was 83 years old.

With his Mount Vernon plantation creaking under financial pressure owing to his long absences serving the country, Washington would fire off angry letters to his overseers insisting on greater crop productivity.
Given these reprimands it is perhaps hardly surprising that another of his estate managers, Hiland Crow, was notorious for brutally flogging slaves.

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In early 1788 the Potomac river froze over for five weeks, but even with nine inches of snow on the ground, Washington did not spare them from gruelling outdoor labour.
He sent the female slaves to dig up tree stumps from a frozen swamp.
During this Arctic snap, Washington ventured to ride out and inspect his farms, but noted in his diary that, "finding the cold disagreeable I returned".

When some of his slaves absconded during the Revolutionary War to find protection - humiliatingly, for him - with the enemy, Washington did not let up in his efforts to reclaim what he saw as his property.

One internal British memo portrayed him after victory as demanding the runaways be returned "with all the grossness and ferocity of a captain of banditti". The British refused.
Whenever George and Martha's bondmen and women did flee, the first couple seemed to regard them as disloyal ingrates.
In one runaway notice Washington posted in a newspaper, he wrote that a slave named Caesar had escaped "without any cause whatever".
That these enslaved human beings might thirst for freedom, or even the opportunity to learn to read and write, did not seem to occur to him.

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Professor Joseph Ellis, author of American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson, says of the founding fathers:
“They could imagine a nation-sized republic, which nobody else had ever done before.
They could imagine the separation of church and state, which nobody else had ever done before.
They could imagine a government based on checks and balances that prohibit any form of dictatorship at the presidential level. Nobody had ever done that before.
They could imagine power flowing from the people upwards, rather than from God downward.
All those unbelievable acts of imagination. The most creative political group in American history. We'll never replicate that.
But they could not imagine a biracial society.”

Jefferson, as every American schoolchild knows, is the nation's third president, and a genius political theoretician who penned arguably the five most important words in modern history - "all men are created equal" - in the 1776 Declaration of Independence.
He also owned up to 140 slaves.
A bon vivant who lived in luxury at a palatial Virginia estate, Jefferson knew America's original sin was a "depravity", as he described it.
But his statements about black people are rarely taught in classrooms today.
Here are some Jefferson quotes that visitors will not find on his memorial, a Roman pantheon-style temple to liberty where the

To his friend, French social reformer the Duc de La Rochefoucauld-Liancourt, Jefferson confided that he envisaged eventual manumission to entail "exporting to a distance the whole black race".
The duke wrote: "He [Jefferson] bases his opinion on the certain danger… of seeing blood mixed without means of preventing it".
And yet Jefferson, historians say, fathered up to six children by one of his mixed-race slaves, Sally Hemings.

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In his book Notes on the State of Virginia, he prophesied a race war in America and "convulsions which will probably never end but on the extermination of the one or the other race".
Jefferson also opined in this work that black people's "unfortunate difference of colour" made them less beautiful than whites.
"They are more ardent after their female, but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.
"Their griefs are transient… in reason much inferior."
And so on.

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Two of Thomas Jefferson's slaves Lilly and Barnaby, had a child Lucy (born 1811) shown above working as a nanny. Jefferson sold their daughter at a public auction at Monticello in January 1827.

Professor Ellis believes a plaque should be put up at the Jefferson Memorial to correct the record and admit some of the Declaration author's less savoury statements.
"Jefferson embodies the inherent contradictions, a kind of self-deception, that co-exists in us, too," the biographer said.
"Given the relationship with Hemings, the fact that he refused to take a leadership position on ending slavery because of his fear of miscegenation, it makes his hypocrisy even more dramatic. He's got slaves who are his children serving him at dinner. But he doesn't seem to find that troubling. It's mind-boggling."

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"Racism is a chromosome in the DNA of the United States," Professor Ellis added. "It's like cancer. It ain't never gonna be cured."

Should Americans therefore disavow these founding fathers as scoundrels and national embarrassments, or accept them as men of their time, demigods with feet of clay, who bore their imperfections even as they sought to steer their country beyond them?

What actually is the difference between monuments to the founding fathers and Confederate leaders?
Dr Clarence Jones — the African-American speechwriter who helped civil rights legend Dr Martin Luther King Jr craft his 1963 "I Have a Dream" address, explains.
He says: "Sure, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. There was no question they were morally compromised in their effort to fashion together this new country, a republic, based on the principles and precepts enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. But neither of those two persons led the nation in treasonous insurrection to overthrow the government they had formed in order to preserve the institution of slavery. Period. On the contrary, they devoted their life to saving and founding this country."

He says that commemorating the valour of the Confederacy is just as wrong as celebrating the soldiers of the Third Reich.
"What Charlottesville tells us is, it's no longer possible for the United States to ignore this unresolved issue of reconciliation over slavery," said Dr Jones.
"Trump missed an extraordinary opportunity - and he still has it - of exercising the leadership of reconciler and healer-in-chief for the nation today."

Washington and Jefferson are not the only American historical titans who can seem diminished when viewed through the lens of present-day values.
Take Abraham Lincoln, the Great Emancipator and Civil War leader who destroyed the South's slavocracy.
He is immortalised in another neo-classical shrine on the National Mall.
But as Hofstra University history professor Alan Singer points out, the nation's 16th president espoused racist opinions as his political soul evolved.
He is quoted as saying to applause at a debate at Charleston, Illinois, during an 1858 Senate election campaign: "There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

The Republican leader is also recorded as having tried to persuade a black delegation in 1862 that African-Americans should self-deport and colonise somewhere like Central America, arguing that it would be "extremely selfish" if they refused.

"The United States needs to have a general evaluation of who we are as a nation, so we can come to terms with our present by understanding our past," says Professor Singer.
"Nations need heroes to define who we are, to help us see ourselves in a better light.
"And the United States has heroes. But we tend not to see the warts.
"We tend to try to erase the parts we don't want to see. And this is a time when we have to look."
Sometimes, though, it can be hard to look.

President Lyndon Baines Johnson is lionised as the signer of the 1964 Civil Rights Act — one of the greatest legislative accomplishments of any US administration - which outlawed discrimination.
However, LBJ is also known to have frequently tossed racial slurs around the cloakrooms of the US Senate, according to his biographer Robert Caro.
Johnson nicknamed an earlier iteration of the landmark act for which he is known as "the nigger bill".
In his memoir, Capitol Hill in Black and White, African-American chauffeur Robert Parker relates a disturbing interaction while he was driving for the Texan.
Johnson, he recalls, asked him whether he objected to being called "nigger".
When Parker replied that he would rather be addressed by his own name, Johnson allegedly retorted: "As long as you are black, and you're gonna be black till the day you die, no one's gonna call you by your goddamn name.
"So no matter what you are called, nigger, you just let it roll off your back like water, and you'll make it. Just pretend you're a goddamn piece of furniture."

But Dr Jones believes that LBJ, for all his flaws, understood that his duty as chief magistrate of the United States was to lead his country towards sunlit uplands of a more perfect union, to achieve the unfulfilled promise of its founding.
. . .

When is it OK to pull down statues?
BBC News.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:03 pm
How many more liberals? How many more Europeans have to be raped and murdered for the religion of multi culturalism?

Migrants assault polish man and rape his wife in Italy.
https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/we-wloszech-zg ... 051764353a

.....
The only way to prevent all immigrant crime would be to stop all immigration, completely, everywhere. How feasible is that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by been-there »

Nessie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:34 pm
Here is the link to the original article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40978515

just so everyone knows been-there is at his copying and pasting to make it look like he has had an original thought, again :roll:
been-there wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:16 pm
Should Washington and Jefferson monuments [also] come down?
By Jude Sheerin • BBC News, Washington • 18 August 2017

Professor Ellis believes a plaque should be put up at the Jefferson Memorial to correct the record and admit some of the Declaration author's less savoury statements.
"Jefferson embodies the inherent contradictions, a kind of self-deception, that co-exists in us, too," the biographer said.
"Given the [sexual] relationship with Sally Hemmings, the fact that he refused to take a leadership position on ending slavery because of his fear of miscegenation, it makes his hypocrisy even more dramatic. He's got slaves who are his children serving him at dinner. But he doesn't seem to find that troubling. It's mind-boggling."

Image

"Racism is a chromosome in the DNA of the United States," Professor Ellis added. "It's like cancer. It ain't never gonna be cured."
. . .

When is it OK to pull down statues?
BBC News.
copying and pasting to make it look like he has had an original thought...”

He he. Oh boy. Well now we have proof that the problem with this troll is predominantly not dishonesty but stupidity. :?

I included the name of the author. I have now highlighted in red that I credited the author. :roll:
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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by kevinwalsh »

Nessie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:36 pm
Werd wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:03 pm
How many more liberals? How many more Europeans have to be raped and murdered for the religion of multi culturalism?

Migrants assault polish man and rape his wife in Italy.
https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/we-wloszech-zg ... 051764353a

.....
The only way to prevent all immigrant crime would be to stop all immigration, completely, everywhere. How feasible is that?
Quite feasible. There have been countries that have existed in almost complete isolation, accepting no immigrants and giving no emigrants. Tokugawa Japan is an example of this. In any case, I don't think the object is stopping ALL immigrant crime, merely reducing it to the level of the indigenous population. That involves being selective about which immigrants are allowed and which are not. I disagree with Werd about religion being the touchstone. It should be race. Immigration is usually a bad thing. It's almost always used as a means of acquiring cheap labor to benefit a small upper class at the expense of the native workforce.
"A man who does not love his country and nation cannot be a Communist revolutionary."
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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by kevinwalsh »

Let's suppose that Lee, Washington, and Jefferson were all negative characters who did more harm than good. Would I want their statues removed? No, I would not. The perverse gladiatorial contests would not cause me to urge the Italians to tear down what's left of the Coliseum. The Opium Wars would not cause me to urge the British to tear down statues of Queen Victoria. That it reminds me of a time when Sino-Mongolian relations were hostile would not cause me to say, "Mr. Xi, tear down that wall!" Being an atheist would not cause me to ask that Hagia Sophia be razed. Just because something is not pleasant or "politically correct" does not mean it is not heritage, and if an article of heritage causes one to reflect on something that one considers a mistake, a tragedy or even a terrible crime against humanity, it should encourage us to reflect that improvement is possible.
"A man who does not love his country and nation cannot be a Communist revolutionary."
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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Scott »

kevinwalsh wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:41 pm

Let's suppose that Lee, Washington, and Jefferson were all negative characters who did more harm than good. Would I want their statues removed? No, I would not. The perverse gladiatorial contests would not cause me to urge the Italians to tear down what's left of the Coliseum. The Opium Wars would not cause me to urge the British to tear down statues of Queen Victoria. That it reminds me of a time when Sino-Mongolian relations were hostile would not cause me to say, "Mr. Xi, tear down that wall!" Being an atheist would not cause me to ask that Hagia Sophia be razed. Just because something is not pleasant or "politically correct" does not mean it is not heritage, and if an article of heritage causes one to reflect on something that one considers a mistake, a tragedy or even a terrible crime against humanity, it should encourage us to reflect that improvement is possible.

Excellent!

I hope that I never happen to be changing a tire on my car within sight of some shitbird tearing down a Confederate monument. I might go all tire iron upside his head.

:)

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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:36 pm
Werd wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:03 pm
How many more liberals? How many more Europeans have to be raped and murdered for the religion of multi culturalism?

Migrants assault polish man and rape his wife in Italy.
https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/we-wloszech-zg ... 051764353a

.....
The only way to prevent all immigrant crime would be to stop all immigration, completely, everywhere. How feasible is that?
Um if us right wingers are liars and xenophobes, then every immigrants must be documented in terms of where they work and live.

Don't you love how Nessie claims that stopping immigration is impossible in this topic, yet in the EU topic in Siberian Exile, he has been bragging he has evidence the EU is making sure all member nations are invoking certain EU clauses that allow them border control in the case of a crisis. So which is it Nessie? If immigrants are documented and known where to live thus making them easy to locate and deport, and if the EU upholds the right of member nations to gain control of their borders again and deport people as you claim, that means they can also deport whoever they want in Nessie's view. Ultimately there is no political obstacle in the way. In other words, Nessie, your world view makes it very easy to deport immigrants.

:lol:

So spare me your regressive politics and rhetoric which is basically implying we can't deport immigrants so why bother. Which leaves the door open for more immigrant rape to continue. SO I WILL ASK YOU AGAIN...HOW MANY MORE WHITE RAPES CAN BE ACCEPTABLE BEFORE MASS DEPORTATION HAS TO BEGIN AND NOBODY FROM THOSE MISOGYNIST CULTURES COME IN TO THE WEST ANYMORE?

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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:26 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:34 pm
Here is the link to the original article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40978515

just so everyone knows been-there is at his copying and pasting to make it look like he has had an original thought, again :roll:

......
copying and pasting to make it look like he has had an original thought...”

He he. Oh boy. Well now we have proof that the problem with this troll is predominantly not dishonesty but stupidity. :?

I included the name of the author. I have now highlighted in red that I credited the author. :roll:
Oh boy, the idiocy of someone who repeatedly fails to show links, make it clear what is a quote/copy paste and what is his own words and who has been caught out in the past plagiarising.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: heroes of Charlottesville

Post by Nessie »

kevinwalsh wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:33 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:36 pm
...

The only way to prevent all immigrant crime would be to stop all immigration, completely, everywhere. How feasible is that?
Quite feasible. There have been countries that have existed in almost complete isolation, accepting no immigrants and giving no emigrants. Tokugawa Japan is an example of this.
Back when travelling long distances was far harder than it is now.
In any case, I don't think the object is stopping ALL immigrant crime, merely reducing it to the level of the indigenous population. That involves being selective about which immigrants are allowed and which are not. I disagree with Werd about religion being the touchstone. It should be race. Immigration is usually a bad thing. It's almost always used as a means of acquiring cheap labor to benefit a small upper class at the expense of the native workforce.
So you agree that white Europeans, as slavers and having controlled immigration, have failed terribly, ironic, since they are also immigrants.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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