Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

This board is open for all subject matters. Post information and discussion materials about open-debate and censorship on other boards (including this one) here. Memory Hole 2 is a RODOH subforum for alternate perspectives.
Locked
Lily
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Lily »

delete


Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH, kindly contact Scott Smith. All contributions are welcome!


onetruth
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by onetruth »

Lily wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:43 pm
The CODOH Moderator tells us the facts:

You make claims of censorship when what you have posted proves there has been no censorship. :lol:

Get with it.

Cheers, M1

Every now and than Hannover likes to make a guest appearance as M1.

This is done by Hannover magically splitting himself into two persona - One is Hannover with his usual foul behavior and the other is M1 , who mysteriously always supports Hannover stand and backs up his bullying demands like : go fetch this document , answer this or your post would be deleted etc.

Well cheers to you too M1, or should i say Hannover.

Would you like to explain to the readers here , why do you try to create the facade as if there is some impartial unbiased moderating interfering now in than in the CODOH ? When the fact of the matter is that YOU are the only moderator there ?

The fact you need a fictional character to rush to your aid , just show how pathetic your situation really is , as well as your inability to win a debate fairly

~
Image

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto »

Lily wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:43 pm
Roberto shoots himself in the foot again.
The CODOH Moderator tells us the facts:
from: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11224
Notes to Roberto:
Oh Roberto, poor Roberto.
You continue to ignore responses to your questions that you simply do not like.
You continue to dodge numerous challenges in spite of them being very specific & on topic.
You make claims of censorship when what you have posted proves there has been no censorship. :lol:

Get with it.

Cheers, M1
and:
FYI:
I will be compiling a list of your dodges to make it easier for all to see.

Regards, M1
The massacre of Roberto Muehlenkamp continues. :lol:
Actually what continues is the massacre of the last shambles of CODOH's credibility as an open debate forum, at the hands of a cowardly and dishonest moderator (who is obviously identical with both "Lily" and CODOH poster "Hannover").

Let's start with the imbecilic remark that the publication of some of my posts "proves that there has been no censorship".

Yes, some of my posts were approved in the beginning, but the overwhelming majority was disapproved on the most ridiculous of pretexts, for the obvious reason that (as on previous occasions) their contents are too inconvenient for "Hannover", who knew he wasn't unable to provide a coherent response to these posts.

What is more, two of my posts were deleted without stating a reason after having been approved and published, obviously also on account of their inconvenient contents.

My complaints regarding these two deleted posts must have made the "moderator" raving mad, judging by his hilarious "notification" dissected under viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2978&start=70#p109925, in which he claimed there had been no censorship regarding the former of these two posts (the latter he preferred to not even mention).

Unfortunately for "Hannover" = "moderator", he's as dumb as he's cowardly and mendacious, telling lies that can easily be proven to be lies.

His claim to not have deleted the former of the deleted posts is proven a lie by the fact that the former direct post link https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 219#p84303 now leads to the thread's OP. Moreover the notification of that post's previous approval disappeared from the notifications list, obviously in an attempt to erase every trace of that post.

As concerns the second deleted post, whose approval notification also went down the memory hole, the deletion following approval is even more flagrant, for in this case I took screenshots of the thread (https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 ) after the post had been approved ("Hannover" must have been drunk or stoned when he pressed the bottom, or then he had one of his rare surges of courage before getting cold feet again) and after it was deleted.

These screenshots will be reproduced below, after which it will be my pleasure to comment "Hannover"'s cowardly retaliation in a locked "moderator" thread under https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11240.

The post in question was sent on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:05 am, in response to "Hannover"'s post of of Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:36 pm on the thread "Challenge to Roberto Muehlenkamp, Andrew Mathis &
Believers on alleged Auschwitz / Birkenau 'gassings'" (https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 ).

1. Now you see it ...

The following reproduces a screenshot of the thread https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 taken on 15.07.2017 at 16:26 hours GMT.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The thread as captured at this time had 26 pages. My response of Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:05 am to "Hannover"'s post of Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:36 pm started on page 10/26 and ended on page 24/26. It was preceded by "Breker"'s post of Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:41 am and followed by my response to "Mortimer" of Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:18 am, which started on page 24/26 and ended on page 25/26.

2. ... and now you don't see it any more.

The following reproduces a screenshot of the thread https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 taken on 15.07.2017 at 18:17 hours GMT.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Note that the thread now only has 12 pages, of the 26 pages it had before.

Also note that "Breker"'s post of Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:41 am is now directly followed by my response to "Mortimer" of Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:18 am. The post in between these two, i.e. my response of Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:05 am to "Hannover"'s post of Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:36 pm, has disappeared.

So moderator "Hannover" was once again caught with his hands in the cookie jar, lying through his teeth when he claimed that he had not censored my posts.

Just to show how this inveterate liar tried to cover his tracks, I reproduce below a screenshot of the notifications list as looked at 9:34 - 9:36 hours GMT this morning. Readers will notice that only one post on the thread "Challenge to Roberto Muehlenkamp,Andrew Mathis & Believers on alleged Auschwitz /
Birkenau 'gassings'" (https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 ) is listed as having been approved on 15.07.2017 (Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:24 am, which was my response to "Mortimer" of Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:18 am). The post prior to that response that was approved and then deleted, my response of Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:05 am to "Hannover"'s post of Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:36 pm, no longer shows in the notifications list.

Ja, [name], Lügen habe kurze Beine.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto »

So how did moderator "Hannover" respond when he realized he had once more been caught with his hand in the cookie jar?

Well, the way one would expect a mendacious and not all too bright coward to respond: by throwing garbage from a safe place, in this case the locked moderator thread
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11240, with the imbecilic title "Believer Roberto Muehlenkamp evades / dodges challenges to "holocaust" narrative".

I'll comment that thread as it looked this morning.
Hannover wrote:CODOH Forum participant Roberto Muehlenkamp represents the essence of those who promote, market, and faithfully believe in the "holocaust" narrative.
I may promote historical knowledge while I try to expand my own, but I don't "market" anything (I haven't yet been paid a cent for my anti-denier activities) nor "faithfully believe" anything (faithful belief implies that there's no evidence supporting the belief, which fits "Revisionist" articles of faith like a glove but doesn't apply to reasonably accepting historical facts based on solid evidence, which is what I do).
Hannover wrote:It is generally known & accepted that a belligerent avoidance of critical questions concerning the alleged '6,000,000 Jews, 5,000,000 others, & gas chambers' is standard operating procedure by those who profit and generally benefit from the mandated narrative.
Regarding the "profit", see above.

The narrative in question is also not "mandated" in most countries of the world, see the page http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_co ... l_is_legal. It's actually not "mandated" at all, as I explained under https://www.quora.com/Why-do-government ... srid=h5Sju.

And there's no such thing as a '6,000,000 Jews, 5,000,000 others, & gas chambers' narrative. Estimates of Jewish victims of the Nazi genocide go from as low as 5.1 million to as high as 5.8 million or more, while the number of (comparatively neglected) non-Jewish victims of Nazi crimes (mostly Soviet prisoners of war, inhabitants of besieged Leningrad, civilians massacred in reprisals or anti-resistance operations, to a lesser extent Gypsies and mentally disabled people, and to a much lesser extent members of other minority groups) is far higher than 5 million (see the blog articles under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-2.html and http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... er-of.html, among others), and gas chambers were but one of Nazi Germany's mass killing methods, and not even the one that claimed most victims (see the blog article under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... thods.html).

As to the "generally benefit" thing, the only benefits I have derived from my research and from debating with "Revisionists" is a) the increase of my historical knowledge and b) the personal satisfaction of debunking claims and views that I consider offensive and disgusting.
Hannover wrote:IOW, they dodge the issues to avoid being 'found out'.
The pot is again calling the kettle black. Whoever has debated on open debate forums like RODOH or the Skeptics Society Forum knows that it is "Revisionists" who tend to avoid answering pertinent questions and addressing pertinent arguments that are inconvenient to their articles of faith. This applies all the more to tightly censored forums like CODOH, where opposition posts considered too troublesome are either not approved or deleted after approval (see my previous post on this thread).
Hannover wrote:Hence the refrain: 'Never debate "holocaust deniers".'
Whoever's refrain that is, it is not mine. I've been debating and refuting Holocaust deniers on discussion forums and in blog articles since late 2000, and I still enjoy the game, at least when my opponents have a modicum of intelligence and knowledge.
Hannover wrote:In lieu of CODOH Forum participant Roberto Muehlenkamp's claims sent to me that he has not avoided / dodged challenges put to him at this forum I felt it necessary to briefly spotlight these 'dodges' so that our readers can more easily review the details behind these very real evasions.
For all his bragging, "Hannover" has some difficulty in finding "very real evasions" of mine, for the only evasions in our discussions have been his, and that was when he even let a post whose arguments he knew he would have to evade see the light of day. Thus he never responded to my demands that he substantiate his claims regarding certain photographs I had shown, which he had bluntly pronounced to be staged or faked. And he never produced a primary source in support of his "Auschwitz ash pond" act as requested, whereas I produced two primary sources (Höss and Nyiszli) that spoiled his act because they stated that Auschwitz cremation remains had been dumped into the Vistula. That was as far as our related discussion went. My refutation of his claim that Höss and Nyiszli were not witnesses independent of each other was already too much for "Hannover", as were certain questions challenging his claim that Höss had been tortured in Polish captivity. So he dodged the latter two issues (among others on other threads) in the most flagrant way imaginable, namely by never letting the respective post see the light of day, on the lamest of pretexts (my not having produced on the fly a document that is not publicly available).
Hannover wrote:Besides Roberto's general inability to show this forum the truly enormous mass graves that the narrative claims exist, there are some specific examples which should be noted.
Actually I can "show" the mass graves in question in accordance with reasonable standards of evidence, by quoting from and/or referring to crimes site investigation reports and archaeological survey reports and showing what maps and photographs of the mass graves in question ("Hannover" is obviously referring to the mass graves at the sites of the former extermination camps Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka) are publicly available. I have done so in several articles and threads on the Holocaust Controversies blog site and its reference library, and will continue doing so. What is more, I shall open a thread on this forum collecting all publicly available information about these mass graves that I'm aware of, including what maps and photographs I have access to.
Hannover wrote:see:
'notes to Roberto'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11224
Nothing there, just a mendacious moderator's mendacious claims, which have mostly been shredded on this RODOH thread IIRC.
Hannover wrote:I also recommend that readers see our basic guidelines:
'Holocaust Revisionism Forum guidelines / rules'
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358
The guidelines say the following:
No 'dodging'. When questioned or challenged on claims, or assertions you make in a
thread you must respond directly / specifically by providing the information requested in
the challenge or you must leave the topic.
Nothing wrong about that if reasonably applied, the first precondition of which is that it applies only once two posters have engaged in discussion about a certain topic. In such discussion either poster should address the other's arguments and questions, as opposed to avoiding either or both. So far so good.

However, it is not and cannot be the purpose of any discussion forum (also because most people have more and better things to do than engage in forum discussions all the time) that any poster should be obliged to engage in discussion with each and every other poster who professes opposing views. In any proper discussion forum posters are free to decide whether and when they want to engage in discussions with which other posters, and at their leisure as concerns the time of their response. They are also free to generally ignore other posters they don't consider worth responding to.

Where posters have chosen to engage in discussion with each other, challenges, questions, or demands to provide evidence are only relevant to the extent that they are reasonable and pertinent. Obviously unreasonable demands (such as a demand to produce photographs showing the remains of hundreds of thousands or millions of dead people, or to produce on the fly a document that is not publicly available, etc.) must not be met, so not meeting them is not dodging. Questions that are obviously pointless and/or meant to circumvent another poster's argument by changing the subject to one more comfortable for the questioner need not be answered, so not answering them is not dodging. And so on.

An application of the above-quoted guideline that doesn't take the aforementioned principles into account would imply that a poster professing arguments and opinions contrary to the forum's "mainstream" can have discussions forced on him by any and all other posters and thus be shouted down or swamped with spam for sheer lack of time to respond to every challenge, question or argument, reasonable or not, that is sent his way. It would also imply that any "mainstream" poster can silence an opposition poster by simply issuing an unreasonable challenge of the kind exemplified above. Applied in such manner (which is the manner in which "Hannover" applies it), the quoted guideline is a means of stifling unwanted opposition to the forum's "mainstream", rather than a means of furthering debate.
Hannover wrote:This thread is not meant for discussion of those dodges. Any resultant discussion / debate should occur in the threads which I have identified
However, I do ask CODOH Forumites to PM me with more examples so that I can list them in this thread.
An understandable request as "Hannover" isn't exactly having an easy time finding examples of such "dodges", as we shall see.
Hannover wrote:some examples:
From the CODOH Forum thread:
'Roberto Muehlnkamp's excuse for the lack of human remains at Auschwitz blows up in his face.'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11226
Hannover has challenged Roberto to produce the alleged 'Hydrokop Report", an alleged communist document that Roberto claims proves that the communist Poles excavated massive human remains at Auschwitz.
Roberto cannot produce the alleged 'report', which would be a hugely important document for the "holocaust" narrative.
Actually I expressly accepted the challenge to produce (and even translate) the requested report, merely pointing out that it is a document not publicly available that cannot not be produced on the fly but has to be requested from the archives of the Auschwitz Museum. Demanding that I produce such a document on the fly is demanding something impossible, which renders the demand irrelevant and the related accusation of "dodging" a false one.
Hannover wrote:CWhite in this thread:
'Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11232
issued this challenge:

"Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??
If your answer is - Yes. - then;
Would it be possible to prove - with the utmost certainty - just - 1 / 1,000 of 1% - of your allegation that - 1,419,467 - jews actually set foot in the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps; by proving the contents of those numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves that legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of - Yes. - or - No. - ??"
Not answering to "CWhite"'s "yes or no" questions is no dodge already for the simple reason that I'm under no obligation (see above) to engage in discussion with "CWhite", who I consider a troll not worth responding to and whose posts on the RODOH forum (where he posts as "SFinesilver") I ignore (as stated under viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2823&start=30#p98620) for a number of reasons, including the fellow's obnoxious, multi-colored, multi-sized and foul-mouthed hollering, his having amply demonstrated the cowardice and lack of character that he accuses others of in obvious self-projection, the irrelevance and stupidity of his questions, and my knowledge from previous experience that his only act consists in monotonously regurgitating pointless questionnaires and remixes of such questionnaires while studiously evading any question he is asked, which makes "discussion" with him as time-consuming as it is unproductive, which in turn means that debating time is better spent discussing with abler and less monotonous debaters.

Of "CWhite"'s two questions that "Hannover" makes so much of, the latter is obviously illogical (identifying mass graves neither requires nor implies quantifying remains contained therein, and deportation of people to certain camps can be proven beyond reasonable doubt by means other than quantifying their remains at such camps), and the answer to the former will follow from the information about the mass graves at the mentioned places that I will provide in a separate thread.
Hannover wrote:Mortimer in this thread:
'Challenge to Roberto Muehlenkamp, Andrew Mathis & Believers on alleged Auschwitz / Birkenau 'gassings' '
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231
asks Roberto to show the forum what it is in The Rudolf Report that Roberto finds objectionable.
Roberto also dodges Mortimer's similar question about The Luftl Report.
Actually "Mortimer" asked for a brief explanation why I didn't consider the Rudolf Report to be credible, and got the following brief explanation:
Roberto wrote:Second, if you want to know why the Rudolf Report is worthless in a nutshell, the reason is that he didn't provide the proof incumbent upon him that, considering all that is known about gassings of
human beings in Birkenau crematoria as opposed to disinfestation gassings, Prussian Blue would
necessarily have formed on the walls of the homicidal gas chambers.

As concerns the details, there was a long discussion about this issue in 2007 between me and a
former Revisionist who posted here as "Wahrheit". I'm currently reproducing this discussion on
another forum. If you are interested in reading this discussion, feel free to send me a PM.
"Mortimer"'s other question was whether the Lüftl Report should be dismissed on account of its author's lack of qualification. To this question I responded in the negative, after which I asked "Mortimer" whether, in his opinion, the Lüftl Report had added anything to the Rudolf Report (namely as concerns the "Prussian Blue" issue):
Roberto wrote:That's great, but did he provide the proof that Rudolf failed to provide (see above)? That would be new to me, but I'm always open to learning something new.
No dodging here either, unless one is supposed to see a link to the Lüftl Report as a challenge to immediately produce a comprehensive treatise about that report, which is at least as unreasonable as the aforementioned challenge to produce on the fly a document that is not publicly available.
Hannover wrote:In the thread:
'Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp claims these faked 'photos' are proof of 'holocaust' '
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11223
CWhite challenges Roberto with:


Well then Roberto, you have been requested to point out to us on this map, which allegedly shows the results of the "recent archaeological survey using non-invasive geophysical methods [which] discovered several pits considered to be mass graves or parts of mass graves.:
Image
which one is the "huge mass grave" that allegedly contains "cremation remains as well as larger human remains (bones and skulls), which were present in the soil to a depth of 7.5 meters as established by excavation"?
Regarding "CWhite" and the reasons why I consider it discussing with him a waste of time, see above. "CWhite"'s imbecilic question, which "Hannover" apparently considers pertinent, will be among those incidentally answered in the aforementioned mass graves information thread I intend to provide. Here's a sneak preview of what I will write in response to that question: there's no way of telling whether any of the pits discovered by CS-C corresponds to the mass grave 7.5 meters deep that was excavated during postwar crime site investigations, and it's also unlikely that this is so as the latter grave is probably located underneath the granite holding the memorial. The question associated to this reply (which "CWhite" would of course dodge) would be: so what?

So we can safely conclude that all of [name] "examples" of dodging so far are examples of dodging like Mr. Rothstein was a Jew transited via Treblinka extermination camp to Maly Trostinets extermination camp (see my CODOH response to "Hektor" transcribed under viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2978&start=70#p109907, which hasn't yet seen the light of day on CODOH due to its obvious inconvenience).
Last edited by Depth Check on Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: name
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto »

More news from CODOH moderator [name] "Hannover" [name] memory hole.

The posts on the CODOH thread https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11232 copied below went down the memory hole, the lame excuse for their "disapproval" apparently being this one:
Post disapproved:

"Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory"

Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. dodging CWhite's challenge, again.
What the fuck does "CWhite's challenge" (whatever that is supposed to mean) have to do with what "Hektor" wrote and my responses thereto? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Of course the pretext invoked by CODOH moderator "Hannover", as usual, is not the reason for his disapproval. The reason is that he's scared shitless of his "S. Rothstein" bubble blowing up in his face (to use one of "Hannover"'s own expressions) in front of the CODOH community of the faithful. After all S. Rothstein is the only name "Revisionists" have been able to offer in support of their "transit camp" theory - and it turned out to be a dud.

Transcription of "disapproved" posts:
Roberto" wrote:
Hektor wrote:
Reviso wrote:
Hektor wrote: .....

Samuel Zoldan
Mikhail Zhustkovski
Maria Zhuravel
Iosif Zherman
Raisa Babendur
Froim Backer
Moysey Barán
Rita Baranov
Shlyoma Begun
Mikson Beniya
May I ask where these names come from ? Were these people evacuated to the East ? Thanks.
R.
They come from a variety of sources mostly "personal" testimony from partisans, but also ordinary people. Yes, from the testimony/documents it appeared they were Jews evacuated from West to East (Minsk).
Evacuation from West to East is one thing. We know it happened. German Jews were transported directly to Minsk, Riga and Kaunas in 1941 (the latter were killed directly upon arrival Jäger's Einsatzkommendo 3, see the excerpt from the Jäger Report and the list of names under the following link:
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... t2038.html.
There were also Jews transported directly from Germany, Austria and the Protectorate to the Maly Trostinets extermination camp near Minsk. All these transports are well known and can be looked up in the deportation chronology under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/c ... .de?page=1, which also mentions transports to Treblinka.

However, none of these transports meets the requirements of my challenge, for none of these transports went to the "Russian East" with a stopover at either of the camps Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka. There is still not a shred of evidence that there were transports to the "Russian East" from either of these camps, even though such evidence should be abundant for the reasons stated in my OP. Revisionist icon Jürgen Graf admitted to the lack of any documentary evidence in this direction when, on p. 1503 of MGK’s overlong response to the HC critique (critique under https://archive.org/details/BelzecSobib ... .ACritique, response under https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar-long.pdf[/url]), he wrote the following (emphasis added):
Jürgen Graf wrote:The only chapter where our opponents could hope to come close to a draw was their fourth one, authored by Harrison and Romanov about the resettlement thesis. While we revisionists can easily prove that Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka were transit camps, we are unable to produce German wartime documents about the destination and the fate of the deportees.


Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence where one shouldn’t reasonably expect evidence, but it is evidence of absence where one should reasonably expect abundant evidence, as is the case here, for the reasons stated in my OP.

S. Rothstein's seems to be the only name presented by Revisionists that is supposed to support their transit camp theory, so some more detail is warranted here.

Rothstein is identified as transferred from Theresienstadt with the transport Br on 26.09.1942. The Yad Vashem database description (http://db.yadvashem.org/deportation/tra ... Id=5091986) states the following (emphasis added):
The transport, designated “Br”, departed from Theresienstadt on September 26, 1942 and was the fourth in a series of eight transports of sick and elderly Jews (“Alterstransporte”). On board were 2,004 inmates of Theresienstadt. It arrived in Treblinka on September 28 or 29. The transport was composed entirely of Jews who had been deported earlier from Germany and Austria, among them 617 deportees from Vienna and 584 from Berlin. Their average age was 72.
However, another page (https://portal.ehri-project.eu/units/il ... 4#desc-eng) contains the following information regarding the same transport (emphasis added):
List of 2,004 Jews deported from the Theresienstadt Ghetto to Maly Trostinec camp (to the East) on Transport Br, 26/09/1942 Br Osten 26.IX.42


So in this source the transport Br on 26.09.1942 is identified as a transport to the extermination camp Maly Trostinets near Minsk in Belorussia.

There are also further internet sources obviously relying on information from either of the above or their sources, but the essential points are the following:

1. Different destinations of the transport Br. Osten on 26.9.1942 from Theresienstadt are given by different sources or sets of sources, so one of these sources or sets of sources must be wrong.

2. The source(s) according to which the transport was bound for Maly Trostinets do(es) not state that the transport had a stopover at Treblinka.

3. There is also no other evidence that any trains bound for Maly Trostinets stopped at Treblinka.

It’s as simple as that. Different information in different sources, which do not complement but contradict each other as concerns the transport’s final destination. It's not a matter of one source claiming that Rothstein was killed at Treblinka an another claiming that he showed up in the "Russian East" after being at Treblinka. It's a matter of sources contradicting each other about the destination of one and same transport on which Rothstein was deported from Theresienstadt. One says that the transport went to Treblinka, another says that the same transport went to Maly Trostinets near Minsk. Both were extermination camps, so Rothstein was a dead man regardless of which of the two places was the train's destination. One of the sources must be wrong regarding the transport's destination, and neither makes Rothstein a person who went from Treblinka to the "Russian East".

So the only example Revisionists could muster for a person supposedly transferred through one of the Aktion Reinhardt camps or Chelmno to the "Russian East" predictably turned out to be a dud. The "transit" theory still has no evidence whatsoever that would support it. Not one bit.
Roberto wrote:
Hektor wrote:
Reviso wrote:
Hektor wrote: They come from a variety of sources mostly "personal" testimony from partisans, but also ordinary people. Yes, from the testimony/documents it appeared they were Jews evacuated from West to East (Minsk).
Thanks. Did they stay in some of the camps Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka ?
They were people with quite different biographies; and from different sources by that. What exact routes they followed can be read in the documents of which many are in Yad Vashem. I don't think the reports are 100% complete, though.

Reviso wrote: I wonder if it is really necessary to prove that Jews were evacuated to the East via Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka. If I'm not wrong, Eric Hunt has shown that Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka were used as transit camps, even if not to the East. On the other hand, it seems certain that Jews were evacuated to the East, even if not via Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka. Thus, where is the problem ?

In any case, I would like to know what Roberto has to say about your list.
They were used as transit camps and there is reference made to this in official records, although I don't have that at hand right now.

Most people transferred through those camps, probably did not know they were ever at those places. Just another train station. I don't recall through which towns I traveled years ago, neither.
What "official records" called which of the four camps - Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka - a "transit camp"?

And what evidence is there that the names you mentioned are of people who were a) deported to
either of these camps and b) deported from that camp to the "Russian East"?

So far the only name I have seen regarding which such is claimed on the basis of supposed evidence is that of S. Rothstein.

Rothstein is identified as transferred from Theresienstadt with the transport Br on 26.09.1942. The Yad Vashem database description (http://db.yadvashem.org/deportation/tra ... Id=5091986) states the following (emphasis added):
The transport, designated “Br”, departed from Theresienstadt on September 26, 1942 and was the fourth in a series of eight transports of sick and elderly Jews (“Alterstransporte”). On board were 2,004 inmates of Theresienstadt. It arrived in Treblinka on September 28 or 29. The transport was composed entirely of Jews who had been deported earlier from Germany and Austria, among them 617 deportees from Vienna and 584 from Berlin. Their average age was 72.
However, another page (https://portal.ehri-project.eu/units/il ... 4#desc-eng) contains the following information regarding the same transport (emphasis added):
List of 2,004 Jews deported from the Theresienstadt Ghetto to Maly Trostinec camp (to the East) on Transport Br, 26/09/1942 Br Osten 26.IX.42


So in this source the transport Br on 26.09.1942 is identified as a transport to the extermination camp Maly Trostinets near Minsk in Belorussia.

There are also further internet sources obviously relying on information from either of the above or their sources, but the essential points are the following:

1. Different destinations of the transport Br. Osten on 26.9.1942 from Theresienstadt are given by different sources or sets of sources, so one of these sources or sets of sources must be wrong.

2. The source(s) according to which the transport was bound for Maly Trostinets do(es) not state that the transport had a stopover at Treblinka.

3. There is also no other evidence that any trains bound for Maly Trostinets stopped at Treblinka.

It’s as simple as that. Different information in different sources, which do not complement but contradict each other as concerns the transport’s final destination. It's not a matter of one source claiming that Rothstein was killed at Treblinka an another claiming that he showed up in the "Russian East" after being at Treblinka. It's a matter of sources contradicting each other about the destination of one and same transport on which Rothstein was deported from Theresienstadt. One says that the transport went to Treblinka, another says that the same transport went to Maly Trostinets near Minsk. Both were extermination camps, so Rothstein was a dead man regardless of which of the two places was the train's destination. One of the sources must be wrong regarding the transport's destination, and neither makes Rothstein a person who went from Treblinka to the "Russian East".

So the only example Revisionists could muster for a person supposedly transferred through one of the Aktion Reinhardt camps or Chelmno to the "Russian East" predictably turned out to be a dud. The "transit" theory still has no evidence whatsoever that would support it. Not one bit.
More to follow.
Last edited by Depth Check on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: name
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto »

The post on the thread https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 copied below, big surprise, saw the light of day:
roberto wrote:
Moderator wrote:Roberto:

You are being challenged on specifics of The Luftl Report, not an article about it.
An article about Lüftl and his report, which renders Lüftl's arguments, was what Mortimer linked to
(http://codoh.com/library/document/2383/), If you want a discussion of the Lüftl Report proper, please provide a link to that report,
Moderator wrote:And where is your response to the challenges to you about The Rudolf Report?
M1
Short response to the question why I consider the Rudolf Report worthless has been provided: Rudolf does not prove that, considering all circumstances related to homicidal gassing that become apparent from the evidence, Prussian Blue would necessarily have formed in the homicidal gas chambers,

Long response to the same question: coming up asap.

Meanwhile, you may contribute to the discussion by quoting those parts of the Rudolf Report where in your opinion Rudolf proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Prussian Blue would necessarily have formed in the homicidal gas chambers.
Upon approving this post, the moderator put on his "Hannover" hat and produced some insolently patronizing crap in the post https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 231#p84476, to which I responded as follows:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

And guess what happened:
CODOH moderator wrote:Post disapproved: "Challenge to Roberto Muehlenkamp, Andrew Mathis & Believers on alleged Auschwitz / Birkenau 'gassings'"

Reason: The reported message is off topic. still dodging the Rudolf / Luftl Reports which you previously said you would confront.
The "off-topic" and "dodging" pretexts are pure bullshit, of course. "Hannover" just doesn't like to be reminded that the "dodging" he accuses others of is rather one of his own tactics.
Last edited by Roberto on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto »

Now here's another hoot.

The post copied below, which was submitted on the thread https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11226 in response to "hermod"'s post https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f ... =15#p84376, was "disapproved" under the following hilarious pretext:
Post disapproved:

"Roberto Muehlnkamp's excuse for the lack of human remains at Auschwitz blows up in his face."

Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. still no hydrokop report, please review thread Cheers.
What the fuck has the Hydrokop Report have to with what "Hermod" wrote and my response thereto?

Nothing, of course.

"Hannover" just felt uncomfortable with some inconvenient questions asked and "Revisionist" bubbles burst (regarding his fellow believer's "ghost writer" imbecility, "Hermod" ignorant babbling about "the excuse offered by HDOT, Roberto Muehlenkamp, and their ilk, namely that the cremation remains were just too hard to find", and "Revisionists" being mere useful idiots for the Holocaust "industry", which likes to keep them as a bogeyman to justify its existence).

Transcription of "disapproved" post:
Roberto wrote:
hermod wrote:Ashes and bones fragments don't drift away and dissolve (as claimed by the ghost writer(s) who fabricated Hoess' alleged memoirs) when dumped in a river and a pond. Such cremains sediment and stay at the bottom of that river and that pond. (Especially true in summer time when the flow of a river is at its lowest. Significant, given that the climax of the alleged slaughter in Auschwitz supposedly took place during the summer of 1944.)
A ghost writer? That would have been a Polish official of the Auschwitz Museum, who would have had Höss "write" what was convenient to the Poles, especially as concerns the number of people killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau (the number 4 million, which had official status in Poland until the fall of the Iron Curtain). Yet what Höss wrote was the following (Rudolf Höß, "Die »Endlösung der Judenfrage« im KL Auschwitz", Staatliches Auschwitz-Museum (Hg.), Auschwitz in den Augen der SS. Rudolf Höß, Pery Broad, Johann Paul Kremer, Warszawa: Verlag Interpress, 1992, ppl 75–94):
Ich selbst wußte nie die Gesamtzahl, habe auch keine Anhaltspunkte, um sie wiedergeben zu können.

Es sind mir lediglich noch die Zahlen der größeren Aktionen in Erinnerung, die mir wiederholt von Eichmann oder dessen Beauftragten genannt worden waren.

Aus Oberschlesien und GG [Generalgouvernement] 250000

Deutschland und Theresienstad 100000

Holland 95000

Belgien 20000

Frankreich 110000

Griechenland 65000

Ungarn 400000

Slowakei 90000


Die Zahlen der kleineren Aktionen sind mir nicht mehr in Erinnerung, sie waren aber im Vergleich zu obigen Zahlen unbedeutend.

Ich halte die Zahl 2½ Millionen für viel zu hoch. Die Möglichkeiten der Vernichtung hatten auch in Auschwitz ihre Grenzen. Die Zahlenangaben ehemaliger Häftlinge sind Phantasiegebilde und entbehren jeder Grundlage.
My translation:
I myself never knew the total number, and also have no indications that would enable me to reproduce it.

I only recall the numbers of the larger actions, which were repeatedly mentioned to me by Eichmann or his representative.

From Upper Silesia und GG [General Government] 250,000

Germany and Theresienstadt100,000

Holland 95,000

Belgium 20,000

France 110,000

Greece 65,000

Hungary 400,000

Slovakia 90,000


The numbers of the smaller actions I no longer recall, but they were insignificant in comparison with the above numbers.

I consider the number 2½ million to be much too high. The possibilities of extermination had their limits even in Auschwitz. Numbers stated by former inmates are products of fantasy and lack any foundation.
(Emphasis added.)

The partial figures mentioned by Höss add up to 1,130,000, a number considerably lower than the 2.5 million he claimed at Nuremberg, not to mention 4 million claimed by a Soviet investigation commission, which, as I said before, had official status in Poland until the fall of the Iron Curtain. What is most important, however, is that Höss dismissed numbers stated by former inmates (by which he obviously meant inmates interrogated by the Poles, such as Henryk Tauber (Pressac, as above p. 501, http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... 0501.shtml), with whose testimonies (conforming with the aforementioned Soviet investigation commission's estimate) he was probably confronted, as "products of fantasy" that "lack any foundation".

Please explain why a Polish ghost writer would have included in the aforementioned notes these highly inconvenient statements of Höss. And, as Höss’ writings match in this respect with those of Nyiszli, how the Polish ghost writer would have known about Nyiszli’s account (which was not translated from the Hungarian language until 1973, and then into French, while Höss’ memoirs and the attachments thereto were published by the Auschwitz Museum in 1958). Or how Nyiszli, who published his account in the Hungarian language in 1946, would have known about what Höss wrote in the same year, even though that was published only 12 years later.

As to ashes and bone fragments not literally dissolving, that is probably so, meaning that Höss meant to say that they spread across the water as the current took them away. Not for long probably before they sank to the bottom, but how do you propose to find them at the bottom not of a pond but of a flowing river, whose current would have carried them away from the place where they were dumped even while they were sinking? And before you can even start doing that, you have to identify the precise locations at which the dumping of cremation remains into the Vistula river occurred.
hermod wrote:One theme of a previous post on cremation remains was that these remains are not difficult to find and identify in large quantity. This implies that the major excuse made for the paucity of physical evidence presented after the war to substantiate the extermination site thesis, namely that all the physical evidence was destroyed in the cremations, is nonsense, as fire never reduces bodies to ash in the precise sense of the term. It also implies that the excuse offered by HDOT, Roberto Muehlenkamp, and their ilk, namely that the cremation remains were just too hard to find, is monumentally silly.
Actually my argument as concerns cremation remains at the extermination camps Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka, as you may read in blog articles I have written (links will be provided upon request), is that remains resulting from rather incomplete cremation only partially made up by laborious post-cremation processing can be found in large quantities in the soil of these former camps, as becomes apparent from what excavations were done at Belzec and Treblinka (and also at Chelmno IIRC) after the war, and from more recent archaeological surveys by core drilling or non-invasive methods combined with probing excavations. If I had the required money to conduct comprehensive excavations at these places, and the influence required especially to keep religious watchdogs out of archaeology, all these mass graves, or at least those not yet covered by memorials, would have been excavated to the bottom in the nine years since I was at Sobibór (and found bone fragments both semi-cremated and without traces of cremation on the ground without having to search for them).
hermod wrote:When you have examples of a few investigators armed with nothing more than a trowel recovering hundreds of bone fragments from a single outdoor cremation, you can only laugh at the idea that the Soviets would have been unable to locate and collect the cremation remains.
The Soviets didn’t perform excavations at Treblinka but they found and described large amounts of cremation remains above ground. By the time Polish criminal investigators examined the site (and conducted excavations, one of which found large amounts of cremation remains and larger human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters in one place), robbery diggers had brought so many cremation remains and other human remains to the surface that they covered an area of 1.8 ha according to one of the Polish crime site investigation reports. At Belzec the former mass grave area, in which excavations found cremation remains and larger human remains even at considerable depths, had a similar aspect due to the activities of robbery diggers.
hermod wrote:At some of the camps, however, a different excuse is sometimes in play, namely that the cremation remains were thrown in some body of water.
Not some body of water but the river Vistula, according to Höss and Nyiszli regarding Auschwitz. Do you know of any other camps regarding which eyewitnesses recalled that such was done with cremation remains?
hermod wrote:Although such a pattern of disposal would complicate the recovery of the cremation remains, it would not prevent it. The recovery of submerged cremation remains is discussed in chapter 4.2.4 of the book Forensic Cremation: recovery and analysis, which includes the following photos from a case in Ontario in which cremation remains were thrown in a river:

Image
Image
Interesting idea, but would what might have been feasible in 1945 still be feasible today? And where would one start looking for such underwater remains? They could have been dumped at several places closer or further away from the camp.
hermod wrote:It’s telling that the holocaust industry, despite being obscenely well funded, has not sent divers to search the river bottoms near the alleged extermination camps for huge quantities of cremation remains.
https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... -of-water/
I don’t think that what you call the "industry" is interested in silencing Revisionists by bringing more physical evidence to the surface. For as long as Revisionists are around the "industry" has a bogeyman and menace to point to in order to justify its existence and it’s calls for donations.
hermod wrote:And the burial of such cremains is in no way better for concealment purposes, given that human ashes quickly turn into a toxic salty rock in the ground.
The following photo shows ashes buried in the ground in a biodegradable urn:

Image

Sixteen months after burial, the urn has completely dissolved; however, the ashes are left in concentration and will remain in this same state for years. Plant roots will turn away from this clump of salty rock.

http://www.letyourlovegrow.com/eco-frie ... vironment/
Cremation ashes are actually BAD for the environment! : https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=11109
We’re not talking sixteen months but over 70 years here. However, you are right in that cremation remains should still be detectable in large quantities in the soils of Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka. At Sobibór, recent archaeological work (which was not supposed to touch the known mass grave areas by imposition of Jewish religious watchdogs) nevertheless reportedly came upon thousands of bone fragments. It’s a shame that said religious watchdogs are influential enough to interfere in archaeological research. And the "industry" organizations, which might use its influence to curb such interference, are not interested in doing so for the reasons mentioned above.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Lily
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Lily »

Gee Roberto, you post so much crap here that it's difficult to follow. Good job. :lol:

However, The CODOH Forum Moderator makes things short & sweet,
'notes to Roberto'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11224
Oh Roberto, poor Roberto.
You continue to ignore responses to your questions that you simply do not like.
You continue to dodge numerous challenges in spite of them being very specific & on topic.
You make claims of censorship when what you have posted proves there has been no censorship.
Get with it.
Cheers, M1

and then:

Responding to challenges by posting text which does not address those challenges is, well, dodging.
It's really quite easy, address the specific challenges with specific, on point text.

The world is watching.
Yeah boy, the world IS watching. Exactly what the slimy Zionist "Holocau$t Industry" does not want. :lol:

And then the hammer goes down: :lol:
Believer Roberto Muehlenkamp evades / dodges challenges to "holocaust" narrative
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11240

aemathisphd
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by aemathisphd »

Lily wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:37 pm
Gee Roberto, you post so much crap here that it's difficult to follow. Good job. :lol:

However, The CODOH Forum Moderator makes things short & sweet,
'notes to Roberto'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11224
Oh Roberto, poor Roberto.
You continue to ignore responses to your questions that you simply do not like.
You continue to dodge numerous challenges in spite of them being very specific & on topic.
You make claims of censorship when what you have posted proves there has been no censorship.
Get with it.
Cheers, M1

and then:

Responding to challenges by posting text which does not address those challenges is, well, dodging.
It's really quite easy, address the specific challenges with specific, on point text.

The world is watching.
Yeah boy, the world IS watching. Exactly what the slimy Zionist "Holocau$t Industry" does not want. :lol:

And then the hammer goes down: :lol:
Believer Roberto Muehlenkamp evades / dodges challenges to "holocaust" narrative
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11240
:roll:

Lily
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Lily »


Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests