Denier reliance on fallacies.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Nessie » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:11 pm

I will keep on posting this to show how Werd lacks the intelligence to deal with the use of fallacies by Rudolf.

When I examine Rudolf's claims, I find them to be flawed as explained here;

1 - he only claims it could not have happened as described, he does not claim it could not have happened at all, period. That there is limited detail and witnesses are the least reliable form of evidence, just because it could not have happened as they describe only means that. Rudolf also admits he may be wrong. So at most he casts some doubt on the evidence for gassing, he does not prove conclusively it did not happen.

2 - it is a non sequitur to claim because one thing may not have happened, therefore something else did. That something else needs to be evidenced independently. You cannot rely on evidence about one thing, to prove another completely separate thing.

3 - As for the science over how much Prussian Blue there should be, the traces in known delousing chambers is high, the traces in the kremas is low and buildings only occasionally disinfected is non-existent. So the conditions and exposure must have been different. That is all that evidences. It does not evidence, therefore no one was gassed inside the kremas. It also evidences the denier claim the kremas were used for delousing is wrong.

I have proved my point that Werd uses fallacies as he has not evidence all those selected not to work left the camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Werd » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:06 pm
No, a gas chamber was planned, using real shower heads to help make it look like a shower.
Which brings us back to here.
The fourteen shower heads mentioned in the June 24, 1943 transfer documents for crematorium III were genuine. To support the argument that the fourteen shower heads in the transfer documents were fake, it would be necessary to conclude that real showers were planned, but then a month later were replaced with fake ones. Indeed, the traditional narrative holds that morgue 1 of crematorium II had been used for two months before this report to gas people in a room equipped with fake shower heads. Because crematorium III was supposed to have a comparable function, it would mean that morgue 1 of crematorium III was originally meant to have fake showers, then real ones, and then fake ones again. This is not believable.
Nessie dodges all the other bold text which clearly lay out the absurdity of the gas chamber disguised as a shower claim.
viewtopic.php?p=125882#p125882
There are documents about building a gassing celler/gas chamber.
In one of the leichenkellers of Krema III? Really? Or are you talking about the delousing chamber in Krema II where I pasted page 64 to 68 from Mattogno's THE REAL CASE FOR AUSCHWITZ showing that "vergasung" always meant delousing. :lol:
There are no documents about building a shower.
You don't have to build a shower because the BUILDING is already there.
There are also no documents about people taking showers
Why would the Nazis make a paper trail about how many Jews took showers? It would not be important or critical to document as say construction projects or how many people are dying and from what causes and what sanitary measures need to be taken to keep things under control you idiot.
or any witness speaking to showering inside a krema.
So? Documents tower above witnesses in the hierarchy. Witnesses also testified to 4 corpses in 30 minutes and other absurd things that has no documentary or engineering basis.
I asked you if you are prepared to at least accept there were some gassings and your answer I see is no. I believe there were mass gassings. Mass gassings can be evidenced
No they can't.
those not selected to work are not evidenced leaving the kremas, let alone Birkenau.
Nessie is back to dodging how many not registered in fact were kept alive and transfered elsewhere.
Werd wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:31 am
There is no evidence those not selected to work even left the camp
Wrong.
Rudolf.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3656
Mattogno.
https://codoh.com/library/document/357/
Check this out from Mattogno near the end of part 1.
Although the non-registered Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz were quartered in the transfer camp under primitive conditions – because as we shall see later the camp administration was not prepared to receive such masses of people -, did the SS-people not only not “gass” the sick, but treated them medically, and if necessary even with surgical incisions. The earlier quoted report of June 28, 1944 includes the following information about the medical and sanitary care of these Hungarian Jews: [53]

»Medical Treatment:

During the reported time 3,138 inmates were treated in the hospital. Of these:


Surgical Cases 1426
Diarrhea 327
Constipation 253
Angina 79
Diabetes 4
Heart Condition 25
Scabies 62
Pneumonia 75
Influenza 136
Internal Disorders 268
Others 449
Infections:
Scarlet Fever 5
Mumps 16
Measles 5
Erysipelas 5.«
Why weren't they gassed in May or June? :lol: Look at a small clip from part 2.
The presence of Hungarian Jews in other localities sounds rather strange. In Stutthof arrived from Kaunas in Latvia:

54 Hungarian female Jews (Registration Numbers 48,947 – 49,000) on July 19 as part of a transport with a total of 1,097 female Jews.[58]
588 Hungarian female Jews on August 4 as part of a transport with 793 female Jews, of which 743 are known by name.[59]

From Riga in Latvia arrived in Stutthof:

484 Hungarian Jewesses known by their names on August 9 as part of a transport with 6,383 Jewesses, of which 1,858 are known by name. The percentage of Hungarians among these Jewesses known by name is therefore 26%.[60]
15 Hungarian Jewesses on October 1 as part of a transport of 1,777 Jewesses, of which 817 are known by name.[61]

A total of at least 1,141 Hungarian Jewesses were transferred from Kaunas and Riga to Stutthof.
And there are just the ones we KNOW about. Not all Hungarians went to Auschwitz to die. Here's another clip from part 2. The special action was about securing labour.
The deportation of Hungarian Jews was to begin in the east of the country;
The purpose of the transports was for work deployment;
The shortest way to reach the destination was over Lemberg.

Already a cursory look on the map shows, that the shortest way from East Hungary into the »eastern territories« was indeed over Lemberg.

It is therefore clear that the original plan for the deportation of Hungarian Jews was the transport of work-capable Jews to the occupied eastern territories, where they undoubtedly were to build fortifications against the Soviets within the frame work of the organization Todt. This could possibly be in connection with the Hitler-order of March 8, 1944 for the erection of fortifications in the eastern territories, among others in Bobrujsk, Mogilew, Orša and Witebsk.

The presence of Hungarian Jews in Kaunas and Riga could be explained under this circumstance. Presumably some transports were sent directly from Hungary via Lemberg to the Baltic states.

Many transports from East Hungary (Felsővisó, Kőrömezó, Máramarossziget, Huszt, Iza, Munkács) went indeed over Stryj to Lemberg,[71] and everything therefore indicates, that some transports did not go westward to Przemysl-Auschwitz, but northward into the eastern territories, as was provided by the original plan. This is further confirmed by the fact that on May 25 at least one Jewish transport from Hungary arrived in Lublin/Majdanek, which without doubt came from East-Hungary.[72]

The number of 1,141 Hungarian Jewesses who were deported from Kaunas and Riga to Stutthof, but who were only a part of the deportees, would in this case correspond to the number of two transports.[73] (This of course is also true in the case that these Jewesses were sent from Auschwitz to thee Baltic states.[74]

Non-employable inmates rest with their belongings in the forest near the crematorium IV. An old man climbs down the slight bank at the edge of the fire pond in order to fill some water into a metal container.[75]

It is worth to mention in this connection, that exactly at the time when the deportations from Hungary started, i.e. on May 15, 1944 a transport with 878 – almost all employable – Jews from Drancy in France left for Kaunas.[76]

In any case is it certain, that Auschwitz as a “Sammellager” (collection camp) was only a temporary solution, because as we have seen the camp administration was totally taken by surprise by the enormous inflow of prisoners and had no time to make the necessary provisions for an orderly housing of the future forced laborers of the Reich. This of course would have been true to even larger measure for the alleged “Ausrottungsvorrichtungen” (extermination devices).

The deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz was officially designated as »Sonderaktion Ungarn-Programm« (special action Hungarian program),[77] where the word »Programm« refers to the planned work deployment like for example the »Jäger-Bauprogramm« (Jäger construction program), while the expression »Sonderaktion« (special action) refers only to the deportation.[78]
Matttogno then continues and finishes part 2 with this:
What was the fate of the Non-Employable Hungarian Jews?

At the present level of knowledge we cannot answer this question with certainty supported by documents. The revisionist criticism has proven, based on air-photos taken by US reconnaissance planes as well as the capacity of the crematoriums, that non-employable Jews were not at all »gassed after their arrival«. This is further confirmed by the pictures in the previously mentioned Album d’Auschwitz.

First several photos in this album show all chimneys of the crematoriums (Crematoriums II and III: photo 6 on p. 51, photo 7 on p. 53, photo 17 on p. 63; crematoriums IV and V: photo 99 on p. 131, photo 125 on p. 155), but from none of these exits smoke.[79]But if the non-employable Hungarian Jews were gassed, the crematoriums would have been in continuous operation day and night in the second half of May 1944 (the pictures in the Album d’Auschwitz were taken on May 26), and even then could they only have cremated a small part of the “gassed”.[80]

Secondly, the pictures show that the employable Jews left all their luggage back on benches, while on the other hand the non-employable could keep some luggage, consisting of knapsacks and bags. Especially clear on this are photos 6 on p. 51, photo 163 on p. 185 (where the non-employable, mostly children, even carried two large cooking pots), photo 165 on p. 187 as well as photo 169 on p. 191. Why were the non-employable sent into the “gas chambers” with bags, knapsacks and cooking pots? The photos show further that the non-employable rested in the orchard close to the fire water pond east of the crematorium IV. (the photo 174 on p. 194 shows in the foreground an old man who is about to climb down the slight bank of the fire pond in order to scoop up water into a metal container.) In none of the photos are people shown in the yards of the crematoriums II and III, although these were quite spacious. Especially important are in this connection the photos 152 and 153 on p. 176 and 177, which are shown in the wrong chronological sequence. The events shown on photo 153 actually preceded those on photo 152, because on the latter the group of people, which appears on the first one in front of the east wing of crematorium III, already passed the entrance gate to the yard of the crematorium, which can be seen on the right margin of the picture. And finally, the entrance gate is closed. It is therefore obvious that the non-employable went down the camp street, which led parallel to the railroad track passed the crematorium II and III, then turned right, through the “Zentralsauna” (central sauna) and the “Effektenlager” (storage for valuables), then continued past the west side of crematorium IV, then again to the right and finally entered the orchard at the fire pond.

If these non-employables were destined for “gassing”, why then was a large part of them not sent to the yards of the crematoriums II and III with the alleged gas chambers of much higher capacity and – actually - much more capable cremation ovens than in crematoriums IV and V? Is not the assumption much more logical that these people who kept their hand luggage, waited for the departure from Auschwitz?

The question to where these non-employables were sent is however much more difficult to answer. The case of the Hungarian Jews who were deported to Straßhof could give us an idea how they were housed. In the “Gau Niederdonau” (State of Lower Danube) the Jews were accommodated in 175 quarters, where also the non-employable stayed and which were called “family camps”.[81] And at least until June 22, 1944 was the military front in the north still east of the line Narva-Opocka-Vitebsk-Bobrujsk, and a considerable part of the eastern territories, infinitely much larger than the Gau Niederdonau, was still in German hands.
Here is part 3.
https://codoh.com/library/document/357/?page=3

Look at all those Jews from the photo album allegedly photographed on the way to their death and yet they aren't anywhere NEAR the yard of the crematoria with the alleged homicidal gas chambers in the below ground corpse cellars. Nessie talks out of his ass again. :lol:
Finally, Nessie balked at this challenge:
What are the alleged gassing rooms in Auschwitz? What traces did Rudolf find in them and what are his incorrect conclusions?

We're waiting for that dissertation of yours, Nessie.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Werd » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:32 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 am
It does not matter to Werd what a document states
Actually the difference between a mere guess or projection does matter to me you fucking liar. That is why I am telling you that you need to find documents with actual real time data.
it is apparently a projection, not the result of an actual cremation.
Yes Nessie, it does matter. The difference matters. I say it matters, which means you just lied when you said that I said it didn't matter. The point is, you can't use assumptions and guesses as proof. They are inferior to real time data because real time data is more reliable given that it ACTUALLY HAPPENED and could be REPLICATED and REPEATED. Replication and repetition are key to science, jackass. :lol:
To find out if those cremations were actually achieved or not we should look at the other evidence.
1. This breaks your own rule, hypocrite.
That something else needs to be evidenced independently. You cannot rely on evidence about one thing, to prove another completely separate thing.
Busted. :D

2. I would suggest rebuilding the ovens to exact specifications in the 21st century and trying them out all over again. You of course don't want this because it is the best way. I then suggest we need documents that are for sure real time cremation data as that is the next best thing. You then lower the standard of proof again and lie, pretending that projections and guesses are of the same evidence quality as real time data. :lol: You violate your own rule ONCE AGAIN.
- multiple witnesses speak to seeing and working at fast,multiple cremations.
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- the kremas were breaking down and the brickwork was damaged, which supports witness claims of over use.
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- outdoor cremations were being used, which also supports witness claims of a lot of bodies needed cremating.
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- the document listing the high number of staff needed to run the kremas supports the witnesses that the kremas were very busy
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- the number of Jews who disappeared inside the kremas supports the witness claims.
And how do we know Jews disappeared and never came out? Because so called witnesses say. So witness claims support witness claims. Nice circular logic.
What we have is a train of evidence, all of which points to fast multiple cremations taking place at Birkenau in particular in 1944 when large numbers arrived from Hungary and as ghettos such as at Lodz were being finally emptied.
I can't find the Jews, therefore ovens.

Again, Nessie violates his own rule. And he knows damn well that what I said last post was true. Short of rebuilding the actual ovens in the 21st century to settle the debate once and for all, he still can't even do the next best thing and provide documentary evidence of real time cremation data that reflects Tauber's wild claims. The fact that Nessie tried to use one corpse in 33-40 minutes to a smashable skeleton as proof of Tauber's claim of 30 minutes and 4 smashable skeletons is hilarious. He was off by a factor of 4 and he pretended he was comparing apples and apples.

By breaking his own rule above, and by refusing to actually use documents that are of real time cremation data (I busted him AGAIN, months later on that stupid October 1941 document that was a mere "projection"), he has shown he has no proof of Tauber's claimed numbers. he dodged my entire post and didn't quote one thing from me in his response.
viewtopic.php?p=145433#p145433
He just reiterated his propaganda and vague language totally devoid of specifics. Except for a link that leads to a Zimmerman article that Mattogno successfully trashed a long time ago and the holocaust handbook AUSCHWITZ LIES.

Deep down, he knows I'm right in this post of mine.
viewtopic.php?p=145431#p145431
And it's pissing him off.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Nessie » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:57 pm

Werd wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 pm
Nessie wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:06 pm
No, a gas chamber was planned, using real shower heads to help make it look like a shower.
Which brings us back to here.
The fourteen shower heads mentioned in the June 24, 1943 transfer documents for crematorium III were genuine. To support the argument that the fourteen shower heads in the transfer documents were fake, it would be necessary to conclude that real showers were planned, but then a month later were replaced with fake ones. Indeed, the traditional narrative holds that morgue 1 of crematorium II had been used for two months before this report to gas people in a room equipped with fake shower heads. Because crematorium III was supposed to have a comparable function, it would mean that morgue 1 of crematorium III was originally meant to have fake showers, then real ones, and then fake ones again. This is not believable.
Nessie dodges all the other bold text which clearly lay out the absurdity of the gas chamber disguised as a shower claim.
Bold text like this; " The apparent plan to temporarily install Topf hot air delousing facilities in crematorium II fits with the fact that showers were actually installed at the same period of time. Facing tremendous hygienic problems, the camp authorities obviously attempted to convert the basements of the crematoriums into a hygiene center with inmate showers and delousing facilities for their clothes." has been dealt with.

It is opinion that an apparent plan was in place to install delousing facilities and actual showers were installed, based on an order for real shower heads and a hot air facility, that could also have other functions.

I have repeatedly dealt with that by asking you to provide evidence of actual people taking showers and clothing being deloused. You need to find witnesses or documents that speak to people ACTUALLY SHOWERING or ACTUAL DELOUSING taking place inside the kremas.

I have witnesses supporting evidence that what did take place once shower heads and a hot air facility was installed, was the large scale gassing of people.

I can evidence what did happen once the shower heads and hot air was installed, you cannot.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Werd » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm

It is opinion that an apparent plan was in place to install delousing facilities and actual showers were installed, based on an order for real shower heads and a hot air facility, that could also have other functions.
When asked for evidence of rooms being shower rooms in Krema III and rooms being delousing vergasung in Krema II, Nessie demands evidence. When he is given that evidence, he then moves the goal post and says well that is true but it could also have been used to kill people as well. Could = did. :lol:
I have repeatedly dealt with that by asking you to provide evidence of actual people taking showers and clothing being deloused. You need to find witnesses or documents that speak to people ACTUALLY SHOWERING or ACTUAL DELOUSING taking place inside the kremas.
And I have repeatedly pointed out how stupid it is to request documents from the archive of the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz that were made to keep track of every shower that every Jew took since they had more important things to expend paper on. Funny how on pages 64 to 68 Mattogno gives MULTIPLE EXAMPLES of Vergasung showing up in other documents aside from the main January 29 one you always tried to claim was the one exception to it meaning something other than just delousing measures.
viewtopic.php?p=129861#p129861
So according to you therefore, multiple documents about Vergasung meaning something sanitary and not homicidal is still not enough proof for you that simple delousing happened in leichenkellers.

As I said, you always move the goal posts when you are given the evidence you previously demanded. You are the one who relies on fallacies. Therefore your chosen title of this topic is nothing but projection.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Nessie » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:17 pm

Werd wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:32 pm
Nessie wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 am
It does not matter to Werd what a document states
Actually the difference between a mere guess or projection does matter to me you fucking liar. That is why I am telling you that you need to find documents with actual real time data.
What if there are none?
it is apparently a projection, not the result of an actual cremation.
Yes Nessie, it does matter. The difference matters. I say it matters, which means you just lied when you said that I said it didn't matter. The point is, you can't use assumptions and guesses as proof. They are inferior to real time data because real time data is more reliable given that it ACTUALLY HAPPENED and could be REPLICATED and REPEATED. Replication and repetition are key to science, jackass. :lol:
What if there is no data?
To find out if those cremations were actually achieved or not we should look at the other evidence.
1. This breaks your own rule, hypocrite.
That something else needs to be evidenced independently. You cannot rely on evidence about one thing, to prove another completely separate thing.
Busted. :D
You have again show how thick you are and how you have mixed up different arguments.

1 - You cannot use evidence for one thing to evidence something else that is completely independent. So, you cannot use evidence about gassings, shower heads, hot air facilities etc to evidence people left Birkenau.

2 - Where there is a disagreement over what the evidence means, for example so does an order for shower heads mean a shower was built or does it mean a gas chamber disguised to look like a shower was built, to find out we need to look at what the other evidence tells us.

You do not understand that is two separate arguments.
2. I would suggest rebuilding the ovens to exact specifications in the 21st century and trying them out all over again. You of course don't want this because it is the best way.
I would be delighted to have a replica of the Birkenau ovens built and then cremations of bodies are studied. I just do not think it is possible to do that.
..I then suggest we need documents that are for sure real time cremation data as that is the next best thing.
No such documents have been found.
You then lower the standard of proof again and lie, pretending that projections and guesses are of the same evidence quality as real time data. :lol: You violate your own rule ONCE AGAIN.
- multiple witnesses speak to seeing and working at fast,multiple cremations.
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- the kremas were breaking down and the brickwork was damaged, which supports witness claims of over use.
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- outdoor cremations were being used, which also supports witness claims of a lot of bodies needed cremating.
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
- the document listing the high number of staff needed to run the kremas supports the witnesses that the kremas were very busy
No documentary proof for Tauber's numbers yet.
That just shows the only part of Tauber's claim that is not corroborated by a document is his numbers. Other witnesses and supporting evidence corroborate the numbers. The rest of Tauber's claims about fast, multiple cremations are corroborated by the documents.
- the number of Jews who disappeared inside the kremas supports the witness claims.
And how do we know Jews disappeared and never came out? Because so called witnesses say. So witness claims support witness claims. Nice circular logic.
We know because there is no evidence they left. No witness, no document, no photo, nothing evidences those people sent to the kremas then left the kremas and the camp.
What we have is a train of evidence, all of which points to fast multiple cremations taking place at Birkenau in particular in 1944 when large numbers arrived from Hungary and as ghettos such as at Lodz were being finally emptied.
I can't find the Jews, therefore ovens.
Not my argument.
Again, Nessie violates his own rule.
No, you do not understand my actual argument.
And he knows damn well that what I said last post was true. Short of rebuilding the actual ovens in the 21st century to settle the debate once and for all, he still can't even do the next best thing and provide documentary evidence of real time cremation data that reflects Tauber's wild claims. The fact that Nessie tried to use one corpse in 33-40 minutes to a smashable skeleton as proof of Tauber's claim of 30 minutes and 4 smashable skeletons is hilarious. He was off by a factor of 4 and he pretended he was comparing apples and apples.
We can also determine if there were gassings and cremations as described by the witnesses by looking to see what else is and is not evidence. There is evidence of mass gassings and cremations, there is no evidence those people left the camp.
By breaking his own rule above, and by refusing to actually use documents that are of real time cremation data (I busted him AGAIN, months later on that stupid October 1941 document that was a mere "projection"), he has shown he has no proof of Tauber's claimed numbers. he dodged my entire post and didn't quote one thing from me in his response.
There is no document which states the times claimed by Tauber. That does not mean, therefore what Tauber claimed is not true. It can also mean no such document survived or no such document was produced.
viewtopic.php?p=145433#p145433
He just reiterated his propaganda and vague language totally devoid of specifics. Except for a link that leads to a Zimmerman article that Mattogno successfully trashed a long time ago and the holocaust handbook AUSCHWITZ LIES.

Deep down, he knows I'm right in this post of mine.
viewtopic.php?p=145431#p145431
And it's pissing him off.
What I have come to realise is that you are too thick to be able to understand and follow my arguments and the evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Werd » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:29 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:17 pm
Werd wrote: I am telling you that you need to find documents with actual real time data.
What if there are none?
Then I guess no documentary evidence backs up Tauber's numbers. :lol:
I would be delighted to have a replica of the Birkenau ovens built and then cremations of bodies are studied. I just do not think it is possible to do that.
That's an ignorant statement. It's also wrong.
Other witnesses and supporting evidence corroborate the numbers. The rest of Tauber's claims about fast, multiple cremations are corroborated by the documents.
What is this corroborating evidence if not documents? Who are the other idiots that are claiming that by 1943 and 1944, the Nazi ovens had quadrupled their cremation abilities by going from one smashable skeleton in 33 to 40 minutes, to four smashable skeletons in 30 minutes? :lol:
I can't find the Jews, therefore ovens.
Not my argument.
Yes it is. We know Tauber is correct because...
We know because there is no evidence they left. No witness, no document, no photo, nothing evidences those people sent to the kremas then left the kremas and the camp.
There is no document which states the times claimed by Tauber.
Took you months, but you finally admitted it. I knew you would crack if I would outtroll your trolling. Thanks for admitting you believe Tauber told the truth despite having no actual scientific evidence of it.
That does not mean, therefore what Tauber claimed is not true.
It can also mean no such document survived or no such document was produced.
Nessie has no proof the Nazi ovens quadrupled their output but he still believes it anyway thanks to this nice ad hoc. Once again,
Other witnesses and supporting evidence corroborate the numbers. The rest of Tauber's claims about fast, multiple cremations are corroborated by the documents.
What is this corroborating evidence if not documents? Who are the other idiots that are claiming that by 1943 and 1944, the Nazi ovens had quadrupled their cremation abilities by going from one smashable skeleton in 33 to 40 minutes, to four smashable skeletons in 30 minutes? :lol:
Last edited by Werd on Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Huntinger » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:29 pm

What a load of waffle and wasted words.

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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Nessie » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm

Werd wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm
It is opinion that an apparent plan was in place to install delousing facilities and actual showers were installed, based on an order for real shower heads and a hot air facility, that could also have other functions.
When asked for evidence of rooms being shower rooms in Krema III and rooms being delousing vergasung in Krema II, Nessie demands evidence. When he is given that evidence, he then moves the goal post and says well that is true but it could also have been used to kill people as well. Could = did. :lol:
You produce opinion that the shower heads were for a shower that was actually built and opinion that because vergasung was used elsewhere about delousing, it can never be used to refer to a homicidal gas chamber as if it is evidence.

I point that out to you and show you what is needed for evidence. You dodge me and again present opinion.

Once again, to evidence a shower was built and people showered or a delousing chamber was built and clothes deloused, you need evidence of that ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
I have repeatedly dealt with that by asking you to provide evidence of actual people taking showers and clothing being deloused. You need to find witnesses or documents that speak to people ACTUALLY SHOWERING or ACTUAL DELOUSING taking place inside the kremas.
And I have repeatedly pointed out how stupid it is to request documents from the archive of the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz that were made to keep track of every shower that every Jew took since they had more important things to expend paper on.
I have repeatedly pointed out that is not necessary to evidence actual showers. All you need is a witness who speaks to being taken into one of the kremas and showering, or a Sonderkommando who worked there speaking to people actually showering or a document that states something like, the showers have been installed and are now functioning.
Funny how on pages 64 to 68 Mattogno gives MULTIPLE EXAMPLES of Vergasung showing up in other documents aside from the main January 29 one you always tried to claim was the one exception to it meaning something other than just delousing measures.
viewtopic.php?p=129861#p129861
So according to you therefore, multiple documents about Vergasung meaning something sanitary and not homicidal is still not enough proof for you that simple delousing happened in leichenkellers.
If you locked someone inside the known and accepted delousing chambers at Birkenau, such as building BW5b they would die. An opinion on a word is not evidence that actual delousing chambers were built and operated inside the kremas. All you need is a Sonderkommando who worked there speaking to putting clothes into a delousing chamber or a document that states something like, the delousing chambers have been installed and are now functioning.
As I said, you always move the goal posts when you are given the evidence you previously demanded.
What you provide is not evidence.
You are the one who relies on fallacies. Therefore your chosen title of this topic is nothing but projection.
Wrong, I produce evidence to back up gassings and cremations. You produce arguments that evidence is wrong, therefore all those people left the camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: Denier reliance on fallacies.

Post by Werd » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:35 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm
You produce opinion that the shower heads were for a shower that was actually built and opinion that because vergasung was used elsewhere about delousing, it can never be used to refer to a homicidal gas chamber as if it is evidence.
Just because Vergasung meant delousing in other places, you can't prove it didn't mean homicide in the January 29 document.

Nice argument from ignorance fallacy.
to evidence a shower was built...you need evidence of that ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
The building (leichenkeller) was already there. All it needed was real shower heads. Which it got. And given the lack of a central sauna in 1943, it makes sense that the showers were real.
All you need is a witness who speaks to being taken into one of the kremas and showering, or a Sonderkommando who worked there speaking to people actually showering or a document that states something like, the showers have been installed and are now functioning.
Sonderkommandos that tell lies such as walls being painted to cover up the Prussian Blue, or witnesses telling absurd lies like surviving gas chambers are not interested in telling the truth, so they can be disregarded.
An opinion on a word is not evidence that actual delousing chambers were built and operated inside the kremas.
And your opinion that the January 29 document is the only time Vergasung meant homicide is not evidence that this is so.
I produce evidence to back up gassings and cremations.
Zimmerman's article is not evidence given how Mattogno tore it up years ago in the book AUSCHWITZ LIES.
If you locked someone inside the known and accepted delousing chambers at Birkenau, such as building BW5b they would die.
When did that happen? :lol:

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