Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

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blake121666
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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by blake121666 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:35 am

Nessie wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:23 am
blake121666 wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:13 pm
Nessie needs to be more careful with his quoting and with his understanding of these quotes. And I quite doubt he has read the Italian version of Mattogno's "The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz" - so citing this as the Italian "IFCDA" shows that he doesn't even READ the sources he cites!

The important thing to note in the 10/30/41 German document "Explanatory note for the preliminary project for the new construction ..." is that it claims:
It contains 5 furnaces with 3 muffles each for two men, and will thus allow incinerating 60 men in an hour.
This is as quoted in Mattogno's book. This is a misnomer by whomever wrote this. The AVERAGE cremation rate would be 60 men in an hour. 60 men would not be incinerated in one hour. But the document actually says:
... sodass in einer Stunde 60 Mann eingeäschert werden können
Eingeäschert = "cremated" in this context - not "incinerated". A better translation would be:
... so 60 men can be cremated in one hour
The translation is not an issue, cremate and incinerate mean the same in this context.
But this is an estimate about these ovens over a year before they were built. It is not based on any actual performance of these particular ovens as Nessie is making out.
Please show me where that is, you make plenty of mistakes.
And the MOST important thing to note is that it claims that each muffle would be loaded with TWO corpses.
Which shows, even if it was a projection, that progress was being made towards multiple corpse cremations, so arguments from ignorance and incredulity it was not possible as described by Tauber and others are still fallacies.
The average cremation rate is the stoking rate. Full incineration of any corpse takes much much longer. Using the term "incinerating" in this way strongly implies full incineration - and not simply cremation up to the chest combustion phase - after which additional corpses would be stoked into a muffle.

The document is from 10/30/41. The Birkenau ovens were not built and in operation until early '43. KII's ovens first came online on 3/31/43, went down on 5/22/43, and then back online in September sometime. KIV's oven first came online 3/22/43, down mid-May, ... etc. KIII's ovens first came online 06/25/43. This is all well over a year from 10/31/41.

The most important part of that quote is that it shows that those ovens were being designed to accommodate TWO corpses at a time in each muffle. And they estimated that an average cremation rate of 60 corpses per hour could be achieved in this way.

EDIT: The important point being that if people think any of these estimates are estimating that the incineration of corpses would occur 4 times faster than any other ovens, they are quite mistaken. It is the stoking of multiple corpses into these ovens that brings down the average cremation time. The corpses themselves didn't incinerate much faster.
Last edited by blake121666 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:49 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by VFX » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:42 am

Thank you Blake finally an end to the Ovens thread.
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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:47 am

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:35 am
Nessie wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:23 am
blake121666 wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:13 pm
Nessie needs to be more careful with his quoting and with his understanding of these quotes. And I quite doubt he has read the Italian version of Mattogno's "The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz" - so citing this as the Italian "IFCDA" shows that he doesn't even READ the sources he cites!

The important thing to note in the 10/30/41 German document "Explanatory note for the preliminary project for the new construction ..." is that it claims:
It contains 5 furnaces with 3 muffles each for two men, and will thus allow incinerating 60 men in an hour.
This is as quoted in Mattogno's book. This is a misnomer by whomever wrote this. The AVERAGE cremation rate would be 60 men in an hour. 60 men would not be incinerated in one hour. But the document actually says:
... sodass in einer Stunde 60 Mann eingeäschert werden können
Eingeäschert = "cremated" in this context - not "incinerated". A better translation would be:
... so 60 men can be cremated in one hour
The translation is not an issue, cremate and incinerate mean the same in this context.
But this is an estimate about these ovens over a year before they were built. It is not based on any actual performance of these particular ovens as Nessie is making out.
Please show me where that is, you make plenty of mistakes.
And the MOST important thing to note is that it claims that each muffle would be loaded with TWO corpses.
Which shows, even if it was a projection, that progress was being made towards multiple corpse cremations, so arguments from ignorance and incredulity it was not possible as described by Tauber and others are still fallacies.
The average cremation rate is the stoking rate. Full incineration of any corpse takes much much longer. Using the term "incinerating" in this way strongly implies full incineration - and not simply cremation up to the chest combustion phase - after which additional corpses would be stoked into a muffle.

The document is from 10/30/41. The Birkenau ovens were not built and in operation until early '43. KII's ovens first came online on 3/31/43, went down on 5/22/43, and then back online in September sometime. KIV's oven first came online 3/22/43, down mid-May, ... etc. KIII's ovens first came online 06/25/43. This is all well over a year from 10/31/41.
Krema I at Auschwitz was operational from September 1940.
The most important part of that quote is that it shows that those ovens were being designed to accommodate TWO corpses at a time in each muffle. And they estimated that an average cremation rate of 60 corpses per hour could be achieved in this way.

EDIT: The important point being that if people think any of these estimates are estimating that the incineration of corpses would occur 4 times faster than any other ovens, they are quite mistaken. It is the stoking of multiple corpses into these ovens that brings down the average cremation time. The corpses themselves didn't incinerate much faster.
The document is from a month after the ovens went operational. Why would they still be "guessing" as has been alleged?

Tauber said of krema I "At the time when I was working there, the incineration of such a charge (5 corpses in one muffle) took up to an hour and a half, because they were the bodies of very thin people, real skeletons, which burned very slowly."
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by Charles Traynor » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:39 am

Nessie is full of shit.
Kitty Hart-Moxon (1998): "Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."

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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by blake121666 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:55 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:47 am
blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:35 am
Nessie wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:23 am
blake121666 wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:13 pm
Nessie needs to be more careful with his quoting and with his understanding of these quotes. And I quite doubt he has read the Italian version of Mattogno's "The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz" - so citing this as the Italian "IFCDA" shows that he doesn't even READ the sources he cites!

The important thing to note in the 10/30/41 German document "Explanatory note for the preliminary project for the new construction ..." is that it claims:



This is as quoted in Mattogno's book. This is a misnomer by whomever wrote this. The AVERAGE cremation rate would be 60 men in an hour. 60 men would not be incinerated in one hour. But the document actually says:



Eingeäschert = "cremated" in this context - not "incinerated". A better translation would be:
The translation is not an issue, cremate and incinerate mean the same in this context.
But this is an estimate about these ovens over a year before they were built. It is not based on any actual performance of these particular ovens as Nessie is making out.
Please show me where that is, you make plenty of mistakes.
And the MOST important thing to note is that it claims that each muffle would be loaded with TWO corpses.
Which shows, even if it was a projection, that progress was being made towards multiple corpse cremations, so arguments from ignorance and incredulity it was not possible as described by Tauber and others are still fallacies.
The average cremation rate is the stoking rate. Full incineration of any corpse takes much much longer. Using the term "incinerating" in this way strongly implies full incineration - and not simply cremation up to the chest combustion phase - after which additional corpses would be stoked into a muffle.

The document is from 10/30/41. The Birkenau ovens were not built and in operation until early '43. KII's ovens first came online on 3/31/43, went down on 5/22/43, and then back online in September sometime. KIV's oven first came online 3/22/43, down mid-May, ... etc. KIII's ovens first came online 06/25/43. This is all well over a year from 10/31/41.
Krema I at Auschwitz was operational from September 1940.
The most important part of that quote is that it shows that those ovens were being designed to accommodate TWO corpses at a time in each muffle. And they estimated that an average cremation rate of 60 corpses per hour could be achieved in this way.

EDIT: The important point being that if people think any of these estimates are estimating that the incineration of corpses would occur 4 times faster than any other ovens, they are quite mistaken. It is the stoking of multiple corpses into these ovens that brings down the average cremation time. The corpses themselves didn't incinerate much faster.
The document is from a month after the ovens went operational. Why would they still be "guessing" as has been alleged?

Tauber said of krema I "At the time when I was working there, the incineration of such a charge (5 corpses in one muffle) took up to an hour and a half, because they were the bodies of very thin people, real skeletons, which burned very slowly."
The document was about the proposed ovens for Birkenau Krema II:
It [the ovens proposal] contains 5 furnaces with 3 muffles each for two men, so that 60 men can be cremated in one hour [this is based on the assumed stoking rate of two stokings of 2 corpses in an hour]
The Birkenau ovens were built in 1943.

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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:29 pm

Tauber reports multiple body cremations at Krema I. Documents show that multiple body cremations were proposed for further kremas;

Report of 30 October 1941 from the construction office Auschwitz on "60 men can be cremated" in the Topf five three muffle ovens within one hour [Mattogno, IFCDA, p. 353]

Letter from Kurt Prüfer of 8 September 1942 on "the number of muffles [37 with a capacity of 1850 corpses per day] is not yet sufficient; we should deliver more ovens as quick as possible" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 442]


and another is explicit about that happening;

Report from Fritz Sanders of 14 September 1942 on "stuffing the individual muffles with several corpses" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 443]

Tauber reports multiple body cremations at Birkenau in 1944.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.


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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:06 pm

Werd wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Image
Why should anyone believe your estimates in 2019 of what the kremas were capable of, over what the engineers of the kremas were estimating in 1941-2?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:13 pm

Werd, like a few others on here, you have forgotten to take your medication.
Deniers are a few bricks short of a load.

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Re: Is Nessie Destroying RODOH? (May 2017)

Post by Turnagain » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:02 am

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:13 pm
Werd, like a few others on here, you have forgotten to take your medication.
What an absolutely brilliant rebuttal to Werd. Congratulations, Goody./s

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