Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

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blake121666
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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by blake121666 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:40 pm

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 1:59 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 am


As written in the short Korherr Report
Altreich
Term used by Nazi Germany to denote territories before the annexation of Austria, so, pre-1938 Germany.
and Ostmark
New term for Austria after Germany annexed it.

It makes sense that those areas lost half their Jewish population before the war.
had already lost well over half of their civilised and sterile Jewish population before the war, mainly due to emigration,
Yep, not Poland though.
You conveniently left out the part about Poland in your reply. "In the East, ..." includes Poland. I only included the first sentences for context.
Jeffk1970 wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 1:59 pm
The Germans were surprised that there weren't as many Polish Jews as they thought. Of course part of that could be explained by the Soviet evacuation, as recounted in that AJC Yearbook I referred you to earlier:
"1941-1942 AJC Yearbook page 664"Thus, for example, it is an established fact that many Jews formerly residing in Russian-occupied Poland have been deported to Siberia, ...

OK. There were more Jews on the Soviet side before German invasion of the Soviet Union in June of 1941 and some managed to escape after the invasion.

I can check the sources I have on that, Snyder and Arad both acknowledged that there were deportations and escapes.
There were about twice as many Jews on the German side as the Soviet side of Poland - even after the large number escaped to the Soviet side. And what I quoted was the short Korherr Report - written in early '43.

An estimate of about 100,000 Jews per year leaving Poland in the '30s isn't outlandishly unreasonable.

BTW, if you look at the number of Jews not allowed into the USA in the '30s it is only about 10% in '33-'34 and less than 5% for the other years. And Jews were some years up to 80% of those admitted into the country. After the war started (1939), less than 1% of Jews were turned away.

EDIT: BTW, the part that Sanning gets wrong is that he says that more Jews were in the Soviet occupied Poland. THAT is the part that Sanning gets wrong. And Jeff repeats THAT part and disagrees with Sanning's more or less correct statistic!
Last edited by blake121666 on Sat May 12, 2018 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by blake121666 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:48 pm

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:07 am
Which makes Sanning’s assertion even more ridiculous. It compresses the time down even further.
Did you flunk math? 100,000 a year is 100,000 a year.
That’s nice....only it didn’t happen. You can’t provide proof, only guesses.
What do you find so unbelievable about 3% of Poland's Jewish population emigrating out of what Jews believed to have been an intolerably anti-Semitic Poland each year during the '30s? What makes you so certain this did not happen?

About 50,000 Jews per year immigrated into the USA after 1939 according to the AJC yearbooks. That's half of this 100,000 per year that you find so unbelievable. Where do you think the birthplaces were of those 50,000 Jews per year who came into the USA after war broke out? Poland seems a pretty good guess, don't you think? Poland has to be in the top 3 or 4, wouldn't you say?

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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by Jeffk1970 » Sun May 13, 2018 1:08 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:40 pm

As written in the short Korherr Report
Altreich

Term used by Nazi Germany to denote territories before the annexation of Austria, so, pre-1938 Germany.

and Ostmark

New term for Austria after Germany annexed it.

It makes sense that those areas lost half their Jewish population before the war.


had already lost well over half of their civilised and sterile Jewish population before the war, mainly due to emigration,


Yep, not Poland though.


You conveniently left out the part about Poland in your reply. "In the East, ..." includes Poland. I only included the first sentences for context.
You mean this bit?

“while in the East the collapse of the dangerous fertile Jewish masses only became clear during the war and particularly after the evacuation measures of 1942.”

Only the first part of that sentence refers to emigration. Korherr knew that Jews in Germany were declining in population due to intermarriage and Jewish couples having less children. Like I said, it makes sense that the Jewish population in Germany proper and Austria declined by approximately half due to immigration after Hitler became Chancellor and after Germany annexed Austria.

The Germans were surprised that there weren't as many Polish Jews as they thought. Of course part of that could be explained by the Soviet evacuation, as recounted in that AJC Yearbook I referred you to earlier:
"1941-1942 AJC Yearbook page 664"Thus, for example, it is an established fact that many Jews formerly residing in Russian-occupied Poland have been deported to Siberia, ...


OK. There were more Jews on the Soviet side before German invasion of the Soviet Union in June of 1941 and some managed to escape after the invasion.

I can check the sources I have on that, Snyder and Arad both acknowledged that there were deportations and escapes.


There were about twice as many Jews on the German side as the Soviet side of Poland - even after the large number escaped to the Soviet side. And what I quoted was the short Korherr Report - written in early '43.
Korherr states that there were 2.5 million Jews “in the East” including 1.3 million Jews in the General Government:

“here are, however, various estimates regarding the Jews in these areas at the time of their incorporation into the Reich, and they are likely to lead to a number of about 630,000, to which we must add about 160,000 Jews in the district of Bialystok and about 1.3 million Jews in the General Government at the time of its establishment.* All together, that would produce in the entire German area (excluding the occupied eastern areas) at the end of 1939 a total number of about 2.5 million** Jews, the vast majority of whom are found in the new East.”
An estimate of about 100,000 Jews per year leaving Poland in the '30s isn't outlandishly unreasonable.
Yes it is because you need to figure out where they wound up. I haven’t see anything from you that would convince me of that. The AJC Yearbook you provided shows the largest population growth before Sanning’s target dates and doesn’t differentiate between natural growth and immigration. It also doesn’t provide countries of origin.

EDIT: BTW, the part that Sanning gets wrong is that he says that more Jews were in the Soviet occupied Poland. THAT is the part that Sanning gets wrong.
Yes, I got that wrong. Mea culpa.

And Jeff repeats THAT part and disagrees with Sanning's more or less correct statistic!
Blake, FFS, how is Sanning’s assertion more or less correct??????? You showed me an AJC Yearbook that shows the highest population increases before Sanning’s target dates. The Yearbook also makes no diffentiation between natural growth and emigration.

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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by Jeffk1970 » Sun May 13, 2018 1:29 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:48 pm

What do you find so unbelievable about 3% of Poland's Jewish population emigrating out of what Jews believed to have been an intolerably anti-Semitic Poland each year during the '30s? What makes you so certain this did not happen?
In order for 100,000 Polish Jews to leave Poland every year you need to find a destination for them, right? Not Palestine, the British started restricting that an as option. So that means countries in Europe like France, Britain, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc. needed to take in these Jews. Now those countries restricted Jewish entry as well, even educated Jews from Germany and later Austria found it difficult to leave.

That takes us to the USSR, Africa, China, North and South America. Undoubtedly some Polish Jews went to the USSR but there were famines in the early 30’s and the Great Purges in the latter half of the 30’s. I guess some could have gone to Africa but I have no idea how many and I’m not sure how many would be willing to go. Poland was not a colonial power so they didn’t have the overseas territories where they could send these Jews. Their Madagascar Plan ended as a failure. I don’t consider China or other Far Eastern countries a viable option (yes, I know some Jews found refuge there during the war but it was a very small amount.)

So, that brings us to North and South America. These are probably the most viable options but the distances are daunting, not to mention the cost.

I’m willing to give this some benefit of the doubt but 100,000 a year? Every year? During a worldwide depression? I don’t see it but I am willing to see some sort of proof.
About 50,000 Jews per year immigrated into the USA after 1939 according to the AJC yearbooks. That's half of this 100,000 per year that you find so unbelievable.
That’s outside of Sanning’s target date and doesn’t give me countries of origin. Also, that’s not very specific. What years are we talking about?
Where do you think the birthplaces were of those 50,000 Jews per year who came into the USA after war broke out? Poland seems a pretty good guess, don't you think? Poland has to be in the top 3 or 4, wouldn't you say?
Except that during the war Poland’s Jewish population was decimated. Over 3,000,000 died.

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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by blake121666 » Sun May 13, 2018 9:33 pm

Jeff is pretty clueless about what is even being claimed here.

Sanning was quoting conventional sources with his claim. If you have a problem with the claim, you have a problem with conventional sources - not Sanning.
short Korherr Report wrote:while in the East the collapse of the dangerous fertile Jewish masses only became clear during the war and particularly after the evacuation measures of 1942.
To anyone with a brain, this is stating that the Germans came across fewer Jews than they expected to see "in the East". They expected to see more but didn't mainly because of the high emigration rate of Jews from Poland in the '30s (and a few other reasons).
Jeffk1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:Where do you think the birthplaces were of those 50,000 Jews per year who came into the USA after war broke out? Poland seems a pretty good guess, don't you think? Poland has to be in the top 3 or 4, wouldn't you say?
Except that during the war Poland’s Jewish population was decimated. Over 3,000,000 died.
:roll:

I'm saying that the place of birth of many in that large Jewish immigration into the USA during the war was Poland. They emigrated from Poland in the '30s to wherever (who cares?) and many ended up in the USA in the '40s (a very large amount by way of Britain).

Are you even capable of understanding a straightforward discussion?

Since it is you denying the conventional sources about this, why don't you prove your denial? I could go through the AJC books and note the influx of Jews into Britain, France, Holland, USA, Palestine, Canada, Cuba, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, South Africa, Shanghai, etc. LBJ bragged about all of the Jews he illegally allowed into Texas at the time! :D But I'm not the one denying the more or less standard narrative about this. It is you who are doing that. And you're saying it is Sanning's mistake! Crazy!

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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by Jeffk1970 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:09 am

blake121666 wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:33 pm
Jeff is pretty clueless about what is even being claimed here.
Am I?
Sanning was quoting conventional sources with his claim. If you have a problem with the claim, you have a problem with conventional sources - not Sanning.
No, I have a problem with Sanning using a questionable source to back a ridiculous claim.
while in the East the collapse of the dangerous fertile Jewish masses only became clear during the war and particularly after the evacuation measures of 1942.

To anyone with a brain,
So, no Holocaust deniers then.
this is stating that the Germans came across fewer Jews than they expected to see "in the East". They expected to see more but didn't mainly because of the high emigration rate of Jews from Poland in the '30s (and a few other reasons).
“Collapse” means “emigration?” Why wouldn’t they say “emigration,” Blake? The only reference to emigration is what happened with Jews in Germany and Austria.
:roll:
Nice been-there imitation, Blake. Does he offer lessons on how to apply pointless emojis?
I'm saying that the place of birth of many in that large Jewish immigration into the USA during the war was Poland. They emigrated from Poland in the '30s to wherever (who cares?)
I love how deniers casually toss away the fact that if you say a shitload of people moved from one place to another you need to show me where they went. If you can’t track those people to a destination then your argument is crap, Blake.
and many ended up in the USA in the '40s (a very large amount by way of Britain).
A very large amount by the way of Britain. Good, now we’re getting somewhere. I assume you are basing this on some sort of proof, yes? Show me the proof and I will say I was wrong. I do that, Blake. When I’m wrong, I’m wrong.

Are you even capable of understanding a straightforward discussion?
Are you capable of providing any sort of proof to back up any of these claims?
Since it is you denying the conventional sources about this, why don't you prove your denial?
LOL, WTF would I do that? I’m the one who needs to be persuaded that this is true, Blake.
I used to do that, BTW. Now I don’t bother, I figure if deniers have a claim they need to show me it’s true. I won’t do anyone’s work for them. You say Sanning is right, prove it to me. I want proof I can examine for myself and check the validity of said proof.

I could go through the AJC books and note the influx of Jews into Britain, France, Holland, USA, Palestine, Canada, Cuba, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, South Africa, Shanghai, etc.
Be my guest, you brought the AJC up originally.

This is what I need, Blake:

Year, country of origin, country of destination, number

I look forward to the fruits of your research.


But I'm not the one denying the more or less standard narrative about this. It is you who are doing that.
The “standard narrative?” The “standard narrative” is that 100,000 Polish Jews per year picked up and left during the 1930’s?

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Re: Happy dead Hitler day!!!!!

Post by blake121666 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:29 pm

Yes that is the narrative of those who look into the matter. For people who don't do that (most people - including historians), that part of the narrative is ignorantly thought to be otherwise. Polish Jews, as well as the German Jews, emigrated in very large numbers at this time. They had similar emigration rates from Poland in the '20s as well. Jews balanced out their fertility with emigration in Poland from the beginning of Poland's reconstruction until the beginning of WWII. They've always been estimated as being approximately 3 million in Poland.

Look Jeff, I've told you numerous times to read through the AJC statistics. Do that if you'd like a better handle on the world Jewish demographics of the time.

http://www.ajcarchives.org/main.php?GroupingId=40

It's a waste of time to banter back and forth about things that anyone can easily enough look into. Have you even perused the one I've been referencing? Why don't you tell ME where all of those Jewish immigrants into those countries ultimately originated from?

EDIT: I think I found a way to show you this Jewish emigration from Poland w/o getting too deep into details. Page 280 of the 1921-1922 AJC Yearbook statistics gives the Jewish population of Poland as being 3,069,330 for 1920. That's approximately the estimate for the Jewish population in Poland at the start of the war (1939). And the Poland at the start of the war was much larger than it was in 1920. The areas it annexed in those years had alot of Jews in them. The Jewish fertility in Poland was not negative in the intervening years. The emigration balanced the fertility increase as well as the border expansion increase.

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