Aisha

[Werd]

Cheeses of Lazurus! I didn’t tell you where!

Yes you did.

al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam

Next.

I explained how.

Arguably.

confirmed that all the children of Abu Bakr were born during the pre-Islamic era. Which reveals the innaccuracy of the hadith of al-Bukhari because — as has been shown above — Aisha was born 4 years before the first cave revelation.

And how did he confirm it?

if your neighbour claims you are male and an article in the newspaper about you, also states you are male, they CONFIRM each other!

What I need is that book at least. Since you won't even say what chapter, page, etc he manages to confirm it.

Do I have to start explaining simple word definitions now, before you will concede a simple point?
Why are you so determined to avoid admitting the smallest error or miscomprehension?

I just want direct access to the source so I can see for myself. Not your word, or any Muslim's word that it's correct. All the links are that you gave are secondary sources which perhaps MENTION primary sources. I guess I'll have to go and track down the book on the internet myself.

I explained why it was most likely the incorrect one, as it contradicted the accepted facts from NUMEROUS other sources on Aisha’s birth being before the beginning of Quranic revelation.

[...]

sources confirm that all Abu Bakr’s children were born before the beginning of the revelation of the Quran in 610 AD.

So far we have, al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam. What else? I mean, that one book is just one source. Not plural.


Are you going to apologize for saying months ago I never talked about Jewish pedophiles when I clearly did?

[been-there]

Cheeses of Lazurus! I didn’t tell you where!

Yes you did.

al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam confirmed it...

Yeah, I wrote that in the first detailed post. And AFTER that, you asked how in THAT book, he confirmed it. [Jeez! ]

I explained how.

Arguably.
And how did he confirm it?

if your neighbour claims you are male and an article in the newspaper about you, also states you are male, they CONFIRM each other!

What I need is that book at least. Since you won't even say what chapter, page, etc he manages to confirm it.

Bloody hell! So you ARE — and were — asking where (not how).
Busted!

Proof you aren’t reading, arguing honestly, nor trying to comprehend, but are deceitfully and stubbornly contradicting.

Are you going to apologize for saying months ago I never talked about Jewish pedophiles when I clearly did?

No, because I don’t know what you are talking about, can’t be bothered to check, but mostly because that has nothing, NOTHING, nothing to do with Aisha and I regard as deliberate avoidance.

You are in stubborn denial. This reply from you in my opinion proves it.

[Werd]

What I need is that book at least. Since you won't even say what chapter, page, etc he manages to confirm it.

Bloody hell! So you ARE — and were — asking where (not how).

Been-there cuts out too much. Let's try this again.

Cheeses of Lazurus! I didn’t tell you where!

Yes you did.

al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam

Next.

Been-there says he didn't tell me where Aisha's old age was confirmed. I then pointed out that yes he did in fact tell me where. In a book.

I explained how.

Arguably.

confirmed that all the children of Abu Bakr were born during the pre-Islamic era. Which reveals the innaccuracy of the hadith of al-Bukhari because — as has been shown above — Aisha was born 4 years before the first cave revelation.

And how did he confirm it?

Been-there merely claims that this one author in this one book confirmed it. Now OBVIOUSLY this confirmation can only come by checking other sources (which in a perfect world should all be available too). Hopefully some of these sources would SETTLE THE ISSUE ONCE AND FOR ALL, why the Hadiths that claim marriage at 6 and intercourse at 9 are all wrong.

if your neighbour claims you are male and an article in the newspaper about you, also states you are male, they CONFIRM each other!

What I need is that book at least. Since you won't even say what chapter, page, etc he manages to confirm it.

This is a fair request of mine.

Do I have to start explaining simple word definitions now, before you will concede a simple point?
Why are you so determined to avoid admitting the smallest error or miscomprehension?

I just want direct access to the source so I can see for myself. Not your word, or any Muslim's word that it's correct. All the links are that you gave are secondary sources which perhaps MENTION primary sources. I guess I'll have to go and track down the book on the internet myself.

Yep. I'm on an hunt now.

I explained why it was most likely the incorrect one, as it contradicted the accepted facts from NUMEROUS other sources on Aisha’s birth being before the beginning of Quranic revelation.

So that would be

al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam

Simple enough? I wanted more than just a few websites that mention one book title.

Are you going to apologize for saying months ago I never talked about Jewish pedophiles when I clearly did?

No, because I don’t know what you are talking about,

Now who's lying and in stubborn denial? Page 3 flashback"

From Does the Quran Allow Marriage to Children? (SPOILER ALERT: YES!)

Okay, the Koran and the Hadith allows marriage and divorce to girls before puberty, but not sex.

Actually, once you look into the rules of Iddah in divorce, we can use modus ponens to declare the conclusion that yes, sex with prepubescent girls was permitted if she is your wife.

7 minutes 8 seconds. Surra 33. Verse 49.

[...]

You remember that topic, right? You posted in it, and accused me of only focusing on Muslims having child sex. I then showed older posts of mine proving otherwise, where I attacked Jewish sanctioned child sex. You never apologized for your mistake.

Here's the topic.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4214

Funny isn't it how after that post on page 3 which reminded been-there of his past indiscretion, he makes a post right after on page 3 and starts it off with the phrase:

BACK ON TOPIC — ACCURATE HISTORY CONCERNING AISHA’S AGE AT TIME OF MARRIAGE

In other words, his false accusation that I don't focus on Jewish pedophilia is not a topic that is up for debate.

True to your style, back in the old days, you ignored my evidence of my attacking Jewish pedophiles after you implied I only focused on Muslim ones. I mean, my post which laid it all out had a quote box of you with a snap-back link in it so I KNOW you got a notification about it. I bet you read my response, that corrected you and you just never posted in the topic again out of embarrassment, to make it seem like there was a chance you never saw me correcting your mistake. I bet you've known this whole time how wrong you were to make that past assumption about me.

[been-there]

.
REMINDER: This topic thread is about Aisha!
I will only discuss Aisha and topics related to her here. No obfuscatory, dishonest moving-of-the-goalposts avoidance will be accepted.

Been-there merely claims that this one author in this one book confirmed it.

No I didn’t. I wrote he confirmed the other sources which apparently say the same thing.

...Now OBVIOUSLY this confirmation can only come by checking other sources (which in a perfect world should all be available too). Hopefully some of these sources would SETTLE THE ISSUE ONCE AND FOR ALL, why the Hadiths that claim marriage at 6 and intercourse at 9 are all wrong.

if your neighbour claims you are male and an article in the newspaper about you, also states you are male, they CONFIRM each other! And if a look in the electoral register also lists you as being male, that CONFIRMS the other two sources!

What I need is that book at least. Since you won't even say what chapter, page, etc he manages to confirm it.

This is a fair request of mine.

I gave my chief sources. If you want more, you need to do your own research.

...

Do I have to start explaining simple word definitions now, before you will concede a simple point?
Why are you so determined to avoid admitting the smallest error or miscomprehension?

I just want direct access to the source so I can see for myself. Not your word, or any Muslim's word that it's correct. All the links are that you gave are secondary sources which perhaps MENTION primary sources. I guess I'll have to go and track down the book on the internet myself.

Yep. I'm on an hunt now.

I explained why it was most likely the incorrect one, as it contradicted the accepted facts from NUMEROUS other sources on Aisha’s birth being before the beginning of Quranic revelation.

...I wanted more than just a few websites that mention one book title.

Yeah. So you were asking WHERE are the references which al-Tabari in his book confirmed (not ‘how’).

That’s it. I’m done.

If you can’t concede even this small and objective point of semantics, there is surely no hope you’ll admit that the collective of early sources confirms Aisha was most likely 18-19 years old when her marriage betrothal to Muhammed was consummated, and at the earliest was possibly 14-15 years old. So NOT prepubescent.

Your stubborn refusal to discuss this fairly or reasonably creates a feeling of disgust.

And the inconsistency with which you approach the evidence of this, compared to how you approach holocaust historical evidence I regard as deeply hypocritical.

[Werd]

...
Been-there merely claims that this one author in this one book confirmed it.

No I didn’t. I wrote he confirmed the other sources which apparently say the same thing.

That's what it means to say one author confirmed it in one book.

I gave my chief sources. If you want more, you need to do your own research.

Then off I go looking for that book...

.I wanted more than just a few websites that mention one book title.

Yeah. So you were asking WHERE are the references which al-Tabari in his book confirmed (not ‘how’).

Demanding the book title and the footnotes that lead to other references, would confirm the how. Which is what I am indeed after despite you saying I'm not. You claimed you didn't tell me where, and were clearly saw you did do that.

Cheeses of Lazurus! I didn’t tell you where!

Yes you did.

al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam

You told me where. In a book written by a guy.

That’s it. I’m done.

If you can’t concede even this small and objective point of semantics,

Says the guy who is denying he told me "where" and we clearly see him doing so by giving the title of one book and one author.

there is surely no hope you’ll admit that the collective of early sources confirms Aisha was most likely 18-19 years old when her marriage betrothal to Muhammed was consummated, and at the earliest was possibly 14-15 years old. So NOT prepubescent.

I'd be willing to concede they say it. Perhaps even prove it using the internal inconsistency of the whole story of Islam. I just want to know why the hadith which talks about child fucking is wrong or a weak hadith.

Your stubborn refusal to answer fairly or reasonably creates a feeling of disgust.

Says the man who demands to be educated on where he accused me of not picking on Jewish pedophiles, and then I present the evidence, and he ignores it ONCE AGAIN. Kind of like how he ignored it THE FIRST TIME I posted it years ago.

[been-there]

For any honest, reasonable persons who might have been following... and are still interested:

As a writer, I have been obliged to come to terms with two unfortunate but apparently unshakeable facts of life; the first is that no matter how hard one tries, or pays attention to the work one is doing, it is impossible to avoid slips in one's work creeping in - through tiredness, momentary lack of concentration, interruptions, mind too full of racing thoughts, etc. Once the slip is in, it may lie there unnoticed, even by the original author, through many proof-readings. The second fact of life is that once things have been written down and appeared in public, they get repeated and copied by others, ad infinitum - often without question, and usually without consulting the original sources to check accuracy.

In this concise booklet, we consider what may possibly be the most serious piece of mis-information in the whole of Muslim history - the long-unchallenged notion that the Prophet's third wife Aishah, the daughter of his dear friend Abu Bakr, was only six when she accepted nikah with the Prophet, that she married him physically when she was around nine years old, and was around eighteen when he died. One can find these 'facts' quoted again and again; moreover, they appear to be based on the most trustworthy of authorities - the hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, an-Nisa'i and Ibn-e-Majah.

However, there are many points to consider. Firstly, all of these authorities seem to have based their conclusions solely on the work of Aishah's relative, the historian Hisham ibn Urwah, the grandson of Aishah's sister Asma. One might think, therefore, that they were extremely accurate. However, Hisham's accuracy in other matters was challenged. The matters pertaining to Aishah were supposedly obtained from Hisham's father, but apparently these particular hadiths were offered only in Iraq and were unknown to the people of Madinah, and must necessarily, therefore, be regarded as not entirely trustworthy. (The reasons are given in the booklet).

In order to help the reader form his or her own judgment, certain fixed dates and terms should be placed before them...

- Most authorities agree that Aishah died in 50 AH/672 CE.

The conclusions formed about the dates and age of Aishah rest on three separate theories.

The first, and most widely accepted throughout the Muslim world, is that she was born in the fourth year of the Prophethood (ie 614 CE). This is based on one reference in Ibn Sa'd's work, which seems to be contradicted by many of his later statements. If this was true, it would mean she was indeed five when Khadijah died, six when her nikah was performed, nine in the year of her full marriage, and eighteen when the Prophet died. However, it would also mean that if she did die in 672 CE she was only fifty-eight, and not sixty-seven as most authorities report.

The second theory is that she was born some four years before the Prophethood, in 605-6 CE. This would mean she was 4/5 when he was called to his mission, 14/15 when Khadijah died, 15/16 at her nikah, 19 in the year of her full marriage, and 27/28 when he died. She would have indeed been sixty-seven when she died in 50 AH. (Sometimes one has to be flexible with the years, because people tend to 'round things up' and take into account the number of months in any year as a complete year - ie, if someone was sixteen years and eight months old, people might well say she was nearly seventeen.)

The third theory is that she was five years younger than Fatimah, who was said to have been born five years before the Prophet's call, therefore making the year of Aishah's birth in that very year, 610. If this was true, she would have been 9 when Khadijah died, 10 at her nikah, 12 in the year of Hijrah, 14 when she married him, 22 when he died, and 62 when she died.

The argument based on the age of Fatimah has a further complication, however, since her own dates are disputed. Isaba, for example, agreed that she was born in 605 since when she married AN in 625 she was 20. Yet she was said to have been 29 when the Prophet (and she herself) died in the year 632 — which pushes her birth year back to 603.

The concept of nikah of a six-year-old Aishah has given ammunition to the enemies of Islam - which cannot be helped if it is true. However, so many given facts make this suggestion seem debatable.

My own personal conclusion from it all would be that Aishah was born in 605-6, and that Ibn Sa'd had been cursed by a glaring example of writer's slip which went unnoticed and got repeated ad infinitum by those who used him as a
primary source. The slip, I believe, was that he stated that Aishah was born in the fourth year of the Prophethood, when what he actually meant was that she was born four years before the Prophethood.

This makes all the points raised by the author in this booklet completely sensible, and of prime importance to our own generation of Islamic scholars.

~~ Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood
29th September 1996

https://archive.org/stream/AishahAStudy ... d_djvu.txt

[been-there]

.
Some readers might be wondering what has any of this discussion of a marriage in Arabia almost exactly 1,400 years ago, got to do with a fair and unbiased analysis of the experience of European Jewry during WW2.

I suggest one relevance is that it demonstrates the motives and prejudices of participants here at RODOH.

Viz. If someone is so attached to a prejudice against Islam, its Prophet and muslm adherents that they can not acknowledge simple points of logic, arithmetic and semantics, then it shows they are arguing dishonestly, irrationally and their conclusions can not be trusted.
This puts doubt on their ability to fairly understand and discuss any other subject they are trying to analyse and debate.

It suggests, their arguments regarding anything they have an emotional attachment too will be similarly suspect and motivated by unadmitted prejudices.

It can be seen here at RODOH that many participants have arguments that are motivated and informed by deep-seated prejudices and loyalties.
E.g. 1.) Most exterminationist true-believers of ‘THE holocaust’ appear to be motivated by irrational and blinkered, supremacist, race-motivated loyalties to Jewry and by hatred of 20th century Germans, plus anyone they perceive as being an NSDAP apologist.

E.g.2.) Many Holocaust-revisionists appear to be motivated by irrational and blinkered, supremacist, race-motivated loyalties to ‘whiteness’ and by prejudice against foreigners, immigrants, muslims, jews and people of colour.

That doesn’t always mean their arguments are false, merely that their impartiality is suspect and their ability to admit error or nuance may well be severely compromised.

Erm... As we have just witnessed.

Anyway, to continue:

Calculating the age of Aisha at marriage according to the date of her own death.

Most historians (though not all) agree that Aisha passed away when she was 67 years old.
Hisham ibn Urwah (763 AD), the grandson of Aisha's sister Asmaa, gave the date of her death as 672 AD.
Khalifa ibn al-Khayyat al-Usfuri (854 AD), an authority on lineage and biography, and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (855 AD) also tell us that Aisha died in 672 AD.

The importance of this date cannot be underestimated.
If she was 67 years old in 672 AD, then at the time of the Hijrah in 622
she must have been 17 years old (and born in 605 AD);
this again backs up the conclusion that she was 19 yrs old at the time of her marriage
in 624 AD, and not 9 yrs old.

~~ Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood (Based on the research of Maulana Muhammad Farooq Khan)
‘Aishah: A study of her age at the time of her marriage with Prophet Muhammad’. Pg. 16

https://www.mohammedamin.com/Reviews/Ha ... ha-age.pdf

.
BACK ON TOPIC — ACCURATE HISTORY CONCERNING AISHA’S AGE AT TIME OF MARRIAGE

Calculating the age of Aisha at marriage according to the date of her sister Asmaa’s birth.
By calculating the age of Aisha in comparison to the age of her sister (Asmaa bint Abi Bakr) we can know Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage betrothal and at the consummation of it.
All historical sources reported that Asmaa was 10 years older than Aisha.
And these sources state, without any dispute, that Asmaa was born 27 years before Hijrah [the journey of the Muhammad and his followers from Mecca to Medina in the year 622 AD]. This shows that Asmaa’s age, at the time Muhammed had his cave revelation in the year 610 AD, was 14 years old.
(This was calculated by subtracting 13 years from her age before Hijrah: 27 – 13 = 14 years.)

As all sources without dispute agreed that this sister was 10 years older than Aisha, this makes it a certainty that the age of Aisha at time of Muhammed’s first cave epiphany in Mecca was 4 years old, which would mean that she was born 4 years before that revelation in the year of 606 AD.

Aisha and Muhammed were betrothed in marriage in Mecca 10 years after the first revelation, so her age was then 14 years.
(With simple arithmetical calculation we deduce that, because 4+10=14).

In other words, Aisha was born in the year 606 AD and was betrothed in 620 AD when she was then 14 years old.

And her marriage was consummated 3 years and a few months later, which coincides with the end of the first Hijrih year in the year 624 AD which then makes her age at the time 18 or 19 years depending on which month she was born.
(This was calculated by adding 14 + 3 + 1 = 18).

That is how we KNOW the real age of Aisha when Muhammed married her and first had sex with her.

... ... ... ... ...

Calculating the age of Aisha at marriage according to the date of her sister Asmaa’s death.
By calculating the age of Aisha in comparison to the known year of death of her sister we can also deduce Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage betrothal and at the consummation of it.
Historical resources confirm without dispute that Asmaa died after a famous documented incident which was the death of her son, Abdullah bin al-Zubayr, who was killed by al-Hajjaj in the Islamic year of 73H. Asmaa was then 100 years old. So if we subtract the age of Asmaa (100 years) from her date of death (73H), we deduce she was 27 years old at time of Hijrah. And that exactly matches her mentioned age in historical resources.
If we subtract from her age the 10 years which is the documented age difference between her and Aisha — then the age of Aisha would be 17 years (27 – 10 = 17 years old) at the time of Hijrah. And as Aisha’s marriage betrothal was consummated in the first year after the Hijrah, that would make her age at that time 18 or 19 years old.
Which corroborates the correct calculation of the age of Aisha at time of marriage consummation with Muhammed, previously deduced (above) by Asmaa’s known year of birth.

And this is supported by the fact that al-Tabari in his book Tareekh al-Umam confirmed that all the children of Abu Bakr were born during the pre-Islamic era. Which reveals the innaccuracy of the hadith of al-Bukhari because — as has been shown above — Aisha was born 4 years before the first cave revelation.

... ... ... ... ... ...

Calculating the age of Aisha relative to the age of Fatima, the daughter of Muhammed.
Ibn Hajar mentioned in al-Isaaba that Fatima was born when Muhammed was 35 years old and that she was 5 years older than Aisha. Muhammad was born in the year 570 AD so that means Fatima was born in 605 AD (575+35=605) and Aisha in 610 AD.
The Hijrah was in 622 AD when Muhammed was 52 years old and Fatima was 17-18 years old.
This would mean that the age of Aisha at the time of Hijrah would make her 12-13 years old. Which would mean Aisha was 13-14 years old when her marriage to Muhammed was consummated.
But this account is contradicted by the evidence above, and by the timeline neccesaary to fit the accepted tradition that Aisha was Muhammed’s third wife when she came to live with him.

... ... ... ... ...

All Muhammed’s other wives were widows
All Muhammed’s wives were widows, all besides Aisha. She was his only virgin wife.
He was happily married to his first wife Khadija for 25 years. And she had been a widow some years older than him (how much older is disputed) who had had three previous marriages, with children from each of them.
She died in 619 AD.
Before he left for Medina in 622 AD, it was suggested that Muhammed marry Sawda bint Zamʿa, a widow of 55 years of age with five or six sons. It was suggested because she was suffering many hardships in Mecca due to her becoming a Muslim and because she had no male or tribal protection. He accepted the proposal.
As Aisha didn’t live with Muhammed as a wife until after the Hijrah to Medina in 623-624 AD, that makes Aisha his third wife.

... ... ... ... ... ...

Other corroborating evidence showing Aisha was NOT a prepubescent child at the time of marriage consummation
Tabari states that all Abu Bakr’s children were born before the beginning of the revelation of the Quran in 610 AD.
So even if Aisha was born on the very last day before the beginning of that revelation, that would still make her 14-15 years old at the time of her marriage consummation in 624 AD (not 9 yrs).

Aisha had been betrothed in marriage to Jubayr ibn Mut im ibn Adi who was not a Muslim nor were his family. Aisha’s father Abu Bakr would not have arranged a marriage betrothal to a non-Muslim after the revelation of Islam in 610 AD. So that is not consistent with her being born in 614 AD and thus only 9 yrs old in 623-624 AD.

CONCLUSION:
All of the available evidence for deducing Aisha’s age are from Muslim sources. ALL OF THEM!
And these muslim sources are contradictory on certain details.
So whichever age for Aisha that you choose to believe, you will have to reject some of these muslim sources as false.
This means that you DO NOT get to decide her age by arguing ‘but muslims and the muslim sources agree and admit she was 9yrs old’.
Anyone who does that is either lying, is ill-informed, and/or is in the grip of a self-delusion.
And those non-muslims that do choose to believe sources inferring a young age need beware that it isn’t a self-delusion that is motivated by anti-Muslim bigotry fed by zionist-Jewish interests which irrationally seeks to denigrate Muhammed, Islam and all muslims for Israeli self-interest

TIMELINE
— Muhammed was born in 570 AD.
— The beginning of Islam (his cave epiphany or ‘revelation’) was in 610 AD.
— All accounts state that Aisha was born BEFORE that, and by simple deduction we can conclude it was in 606 AD.
— Muhammed’s first wife Khadijah died in 619 AD.
— The marriage betrothal (nikah) to Aisha took place in 620 AD (when she was 14 - 15 yrs).
— Muhammed’s second marriage to help and protect an old widow and her children occurred in 622 AD.
— The Hijrah of the nascent Muslim community to Medinah occurred in the same year, 622 AD.
— Aisha’s marriage consummation occurred in 623-624 AD (when she was 18-19 yrs).

[The info above was collated from numerous sources, chiefly this one and this one.]