Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

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Alonso
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Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Alonso »

What is the position of nationalsocialists on homosexuality?

My participation in this forum has led me to develop some curiosity about nationalsocialism, which in turn led me to look for nationalsocialists in Spain a few months ago. My search only yielded one nationalsocialist group in the whole country: Devenir Europeo. I sent them an email asking them about their ideas. They suggested I read the booklet "Nuestras ideas" (Our ideas), by Ramón Bau, available for free online. It's an easy read, just 44 pages meant to convey their ideas in a clear and succint way. Some of these ideas have surprised me and I'd like to know if they are shared by nationalsocialists in other countries. I start with their position regarding homosexuality, and I might create other similar threads in the future.

This is what the booklet says about homosexuality (my own translation, originals in italics):
The NS [...] woman claims the right to erase from the life of the people sexual defects, aberrations, homosexuality, etc., either locking them up as sick people or punishing them as corrupting elements.
La mujer N.S. [...] reclama el derecho a eliminar de la vida del pueblo las taras sexuales, aberraciones, homosexualidad, etc., ya sea recluyéndolos como enfermos o castigándolos como elementos corruptores.
Not sure why it is the NS woman and not the NS man who claims that right, by the way, the booklet doesn't explain.
We fight the decadent forms which try to make us accept homosexual unions [and others] as substitutes of the family.
Combatimos las forma decadentes que pretenden hacernos aceptar como sustitutos de la familia, uniones homosexuales [y otras].
Do these quotes align with the ideas of modern or past nationalsocialists from other countries?

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Huntinger
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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Huntinger »

Alonso wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:32 am
Do these quotes align with the ideas of modern or past nationalsocialists from other countries?
Stabschef Sturmabteilung Ernst Julius Günther Röhm was gay, and in charge of an army of 4 million. Ahead of his time he pleaded to der Führer Adolf Hitler to promote gay rights throughout Nationalsozialist Deutschland; there was initial support but competing forces from Schutzstaffel and others, especially public opinion forced a review which resulted in the world wide norm being enforced. Paragraph 175 was never repealed.
1871 Homosexuality is criminalized throughout the German Empire by Paragraph 175 of the Reich Criminal Code. In 1933 the NSDAP banned homosexuality, which is strange as it was already banned. Upon the liberation of concentration camps by Allied forces, those interned for homosexuality are not freed, but required to serve out the full term of their sentences under Paragraph 175.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Alonso
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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Alonso »

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:12 am
Stabschef Sturmabteilung Ernst Julius Günther Röhm was gay, and in charge of an army of 4 million. Ahead of his time he pleaded to der Führer Adolf Hitler to promote gay rights throughout Nationalsozialist Deutschland; there was initial support but competing forces from Schutzstaffel and others, especially public opinion forced a review which resulted in the world wide norm being enforced. Paragraph 175 was never repealed.
1871 Homosexuality is criminalized throughout the German Empire by Paragraph 175 of the Reich Criminal Code. In 1933 the NSDAP banned homosexuality, which is strange as it was already banned. Upon the liberation of concentration camps by Allied forces, those interned for homosexuality are not freed, but required to serve out the full term of their sentences under Paragraph 175.
Thank you, Huntinger, very good answer. Can you tell us more? Specially about that conflict between the drive to promote gay rights and the drive to reject them. (Or maybe point us to a source with more info).

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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Huntinger »

Alonso wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:03 am
Thank you, Huntinger, very good answer. Can you tell us more? Specially about that conflict between the drive to promote gay rights and the drive to reject them. (Or maybe point us to a source with more info).
After the death of the Stabschef or should I say murder, Nationalsozialismus became in effect Hitlerism; the Sturmabteilung integral to the rise of the NSDAP was neutered, although in existence with little effect. Herr Hitler and the others were just expressing the dominant world view at the time that sexual diversity was verboten, though secretly der Führer did not care about a persons sexuality. As inferred, he was supportive of the attempts of the Stabschef to promote gay rights within its ranks; however, like all politicians he had to play the political game. The way the Germans treated gay people was in effect no different to any other country with one exceptional difference; the Geheime Polizei could place gay people in protective custody (or anyone) without trial under their continued emergency powers. People were denounced sometimes quite wrongly and imprisoned. The persecution gay people faced in the United States and the UK was worse. At least in the Reich people were merely imprisoned but in the UK as with Alan Turing the enigma genius was castrated and murdered shortly afterwards (not suicide), in the US Matthew Shepherd was tied to a fence and died after a severe beating.

As requested I will find you more information on this with appropriate references; you may have to find these books in the library and perhaps read German.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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TreesAreGreen
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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by TreesAreGreen »

Look up the “Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion”.

Also, read the following Wikipedia link and check the sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecuti ... zi_Germany

In 1935 the Nazis amended a previous law to make it easier to prosecute gay men during the Third Reich.

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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Huntinger »

TreesAreGreen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:41 am
In 1935 the Nazis amended a previous law to make it easier to prosecute gay men during the Third Reich.
Anyone at the will of the staats or feld polizei could be put under protective custody for an indefinite period. The only cops affected were the ordnungspolizei who could intern people for a limited period prior to legal proceedings. (Polizeiliche Schutzhaft 21 days). The outcome was usually the same with imprisonment in Konzentrationslagers.

The measures against gays in the Reich were no worse than elsewhere, especially the United States.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Alonso
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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Alonso »

Thank you again for all the answers. The part about reading German might take a while, though ;)
TreesAreGreen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:41 am
Look up the “Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion”.

Also, read the following Wikipedia link and check the sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecuti ... zi_Germany

In 1935 the Nazis amended a previous law to make it easier to prosecute gay men during the Third Reich.
It has been proven many times in this forum that most Wikipedia content regarding nationalsocialism (and many other topics) is false or heavily biased. Do you have any verified sources for this?
Huntinger wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:24 am
TreesAreGreen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:41 am
In 1935 the Nazis amended a previous law to make it easier to prosecute gay men during the Third Reich.
Anyone at the will of the staats or feld polizei could be put under protective custody for an indefinite period. The only cops affected were the ordnungspolizei who could intern people for a limited period prior to legal proceedings. (Polizeiliche Schutzhaft 21 days). The outcome was usually the same with imprisonment in Konzentrationslagers.

The measures against gays in the Reich were no worse than elsewhere, especially the United States.
How did the 1935 amendment change the laws specifically targeted against homosexuals?

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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Huntinger »

Alonso wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:59 am
How did the 1935 amendment change the laws specifically targeted against homosexuals?
The 1935 version of Paragraph 175 also declared any "expression" of homosexuality was now a criminal act. The most significant change to the law was the change from "An unnatural sex act committed between persons of male sex" to "A male who commits a sex offense with another male." This expanded the reach of the law to persecute gay men. Kissing, mutual masturbation and love-letters between men served as a legitimate reason for the polizei to make an arrest. The law never states what a sex offence actually is, leaving it open to subjective interpretation. Men who practiced what was known to be harmless amusement with other men were now subject to arrest under the law. Additionally, in 1935 paragraph 175 was altered with paragraph 175a which expanded the criminal offenses relating to homosexuality. This expanded homosexual conduct to include criminal indecency which encompassed any actions that went against "public morality" or "aroused sexual desires in oneself or strangers." As a result, someone could be prosecuted under 175a for looking at a man in an "enticing way."
Those laws were entirely consistent with similar laws throughout Western nations and probably copied to some extent.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Alonso
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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Alonso »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:37 am
The 1935 version of Paragraph 175 also declared any "expression" of homosexuality was now a criminal act. The most significant change to the law was the change from "An unnatural sex act committed between persons of male sex" to "A male who commits a sex offense with another male." This expanded the reach of the law to persecute gay men. Kissing, mutual masturbation and love-letters between men served as a legitimate reason for the polizei to make an arrest. The law never states what a sex offence actually is, leaving it open to subjective interpretation. Men who practiced what was known to be harmless amusement with other men were now subject to arrest under the law. Additionally, in 1935 paragraph 175 was altered with paragraph 175a which expanded the criminal offenses relating to homosexuality. This expanded homosexual conduct to include criminal indecency which encompassed any actions that went against "public morality" or "aroused sexual desires in oneself or strangers." As a result, someone could be prosecuted under 175a for looking at a man in an "enticing way."
Those laws were entirely consistent with similar laws throughout Western nations and probably copied to some extent.
That's funny. If nationalsocialists sympathized with gay rights, why enact harsher laws against homosexuals than the previous government? I understand that political pressure could lead them to leave this Paragraph 175 in force, but why make it even harsher?

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Re: Nationalsocialism and homosexuality

Post by Huntinger »

Alonso wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:00 am
That's funny. If nationalsocialists sympathized with gay rights, why enact harsher laws against homosexuals than the previous government? I understand that political pressure could lead them to leave this Paragraph 175 in force, but why make it even harsher?
Herr Hitler tolerated gay rights with der Stabschef in charge of der Sturmabteilung. Operation Hummingbird from June 30 to July 2, 1934, resulted in the death of Stabschef Röhm; his homosexuality was used partly as justification for the decimation of Sturmabteilung; it appears like a flip of the coin but many of the SS leaders were Catholic who opposed all original reformations that were on the table. It was a tug of war and one side, the gay reformists lost for a few decades.


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