Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

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been-there
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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by been-there »

Alonso wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 pm
been-there wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:20 am
So I now agree with you, Alonso. The quote does not seem credible.
I'm glad this has been clarified. I'm considering the idea of creating a thread with the very ambitious purpose of assessing the credibility of other similar quotes. If there is any truth at all in my uneducated guess that some of these have been deliberately planted to undermine the efforts of revisionists, such a thread might be very helpful for the revisionist cause. Even if they haven't been planted and are actually honest mistakes, I think that thread might still be useful. Of course I can just go ahead and start that thread without further discussion, but I think that getting some feedback beforehand might help to create an actually useful thread. So please, been-there and anyone else interested in the topic, share your thoughts on this.
Well first maybe we should write to David Musa Pidcock at the email address given for his Islamic Party and give him a chance to verify (or not) his source. :geek:
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Alonso
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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Alonso »

been-there wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:37 am
Well first maybe we should write to David Musa Pidcock at the email address given for his Islamic Party and give him a chance to verify (or not) his source. :geek:
You like to be comprehensive and methodic, don't you? :D

Fair enough, I have written to Mr. Pidcock this email:
To the attention of Mr. David Musa Pidcock.

Dear sir,

I am a member of the debate forum Real open debate on the holocaust (RODOH), located at www.rodoh.info. Myself and other members of that forum are interested in a Churchill quote that appears in the foreword to the book Propaganda in the next war. We are interested in finding out about the sources for that quote. Our understanding is that you wrote that foreword, so we’d like to know if you could help us find the sources. The quote we’re interested in is:

Germany's unforgivable crime before the second world war was its attempt to loosen its economy out of the world trade system and to build up an independent exchange system from which the world-finance couldn't profit anymore. […] We butchered the wrong pig.

You can find our discussion on this topic here.

Looking forward to your response. Best regards.

I'm not very optimistic about this email, though, so I think that while we wait for a response we can start considering the idea of creating a thread to assess the credibility of quotes that support revisionism. Again, I'm looking forward to your feedback.

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

Alonso wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:45 pm
It seems understandable for the German government to try to stop the mass murder and crime against Germans sponsored by the Polish state, first diplomatically, and then militarily, once the diplomatic options were exhausted.
What “mass murder”?

Kindest regards,

Charlie

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

Alonso wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:45 pm
So, as heartbreaking a decision as it would have been, why didn't Hitler just say "we're sorry, guys, but we can't help you now"? That would have saved Germany.
Are you unaware that Hitler always wanted a war? He told his generals in 1933 to prepare for a war and the economy of the Third Reich was based on preparing for a war.

Are you forgetting the fact that Hitler invaded Poland? :o

Hitler didn’t want a world war, but he wanted war with the countries in Eastern Europe so he could conquer the land and repopulate it with ethnic Germans. Google “Lebensraum”.

Hitler believed that the Munich Agreement prevented him from a war. Hitler constantly threatened a war if his demands were not met, etc.

Ignore the clowns who try and whitewash Hitler and try to paint him out to be an innocent leader who never wanted a war and was forced into a war. They are liars with an agenda and generally believe that Jews caused WW2.

All of this is history 101. Try reading a few books.

Kindest regards,

Charlie

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Huntinger »

Enigma Charlie wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:12 am
Are you forgetting the fact that Hitler invaded Poland? :o
So did Soviet Russia. :o albeit 16 days after. German invasion was to gain lost territory.
All of this is history 101. Try reading a few books.

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Scott »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:06 am

There is also an issue with the quote;

"Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other."

Which is attributed to Major General Fuller above, but to Lord Halifax here;

https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthread.php/469150-pravda-world-leader-quotes-re-WW2

Where is the verifiable source for that quote?


If it is not the British historian Fuller, then it must be the British historian Sir Basil Henry Liddell Hart, and yes, I think he is paraphrasing Lord Halifax.

If Liddell Hart, I think the source is from Volume 2 of his memoirs where he is discussing Munich, the Polish Guarantee, and the Declaration of War.

Either way, I would look up an exact citation for you but the Library is currently in CoViD-19 lockdown and I could not find Online versions.

:)

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Nessie »

Scott wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 am
Nessie wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:06 am

There is also an issue with the quote;

"Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other."

Which is attributed to Major General Fuller above, but to Lord Halifax here;

https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthread.php/469150-pravda-world-leader-quotes-re-WW2

Where is the verifiable source for that quote?


If it is not the British historian Fuller, then it must be the British historian Sir Basil Henry Liddell Hart, and yes, I think he is paraphrasing Lord Halifax.

If Liddell Hart, I think the source is from Volume 2 of his memoirs where he is discussing Munich, the Polish Guarantee, and the Declaration of War.

Either way, I would look up an exact citation for you but the Library is currently in CoViD-19 lockdown and I could not find Online versions.

:)
It is been-there's responsibility to check his source before he quotes them. Yet again, the one who loves to lecture others has been found wanting and unable to manage the basics.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Scott »

Nessie wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:37 pm
Scott wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 am
Nessie wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:06 am

There is also an issue with the quote;

"Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other."

Which is attributed to Major General Fuller above, but to Lord Halifax here;

https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthread.php/469150-pravda-world-leader-quotes-re-WW2

Where is the verifiable source for that quote?


If it is not the British historian Fuller, then it must be the British historian Sir Basil Henry Liddell Hart, and yes, I think he is paraphrasing Lord Halifax.

If Liddell Hart, I think the source is from Volume 2 of his memoirs where he is discussing Munich, the Polish Guarantee, and the Declaration of War.

Either way, I would look up an exact citation for you but the Library is currently in CoViD-19 lockdown and I could not find Online versions.

:)
It is been-there's responsibility to check his source before he quotes them. Yet again, the one who loves to lecture others has been found wanting and unable to manage the basics.


I cribbed it for my signature awhile back, but now I don't remember where I cribbed it from.

:oops:

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Boyar »

Alonso wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:45 pm
In the last couple of years I have managed to get a basic understanding of what actually happened in WW2 (as opposed to what the official version says). While the causes of the war were complex, the most immediate cause seems to be the genocide that the Polish government was committing against the Germans in Danzig and other Polish areas.

It seems understandable for the German government to try to stop the mass murder and crime against Germans sponsored by the Polish state, first diplomatically, and then militarily, once the diplomatic options were exhausted. History tells us, though, that was a very bad idea. Of course everything seems easy with hindsight, but still it seems to me that it must have been obvious for Hitler even in 1939 that he was bringing doom upon Germany. International jewry had been lobbying against Germany for several years, specially in the US; and Roosevelt was eager to go to war against Germany and had been preparing for that war well before it started. It was only a matter of time until the US got involved (with or without Pearl Harbour), and Germany never had half a chance against the combined power of the US and its allies. German intelligence must have been aware of all of this in 1939 and even earlier.

So, as heartbreaking a decision as it would have been, why didn't Hitler just say "we're sorry, guys, but we can't help you now"? That would have saved Germany.
Well the simple answer was that it wasn't about Danzig or anything like that, as stated by Hitler and the Nazis in their own internal discourse - it was for Lebensraum. Stories of Danzig massacres were just propaganda for the masses and a political strategy to game the western allies (like the false flag that kicked off the war), this is why you will find no actual information about them other than this persistent meme by people who are almost always also holocaust deniers, further showing their hypocrisy: complaining about how the Holocaust is used for propaganda while trying to deconstruct the endless evidence in favor of it, while shilling non existent massacres of Germans in Danzig or the Danzig corridor.

Sometimes they might even point you to citations of these massacres but within a few moments you see that these are actually killings that happened *after* the German invasion such as Bloody Sunday, where the retreating Polish army in a Polish town (not near Danzig) took fire from fifth-column ethnic German irregulars and killed several hundred (with historians debating how many of them were combatants and how many innocents) with reports of participation by ethnic Polish civilians as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1939)
Any innocents killed are unfortunate but of course Germany did start the war and these deaths are like a drop in the ocean compared to the targeted eliminations and often indiscriminate reprisals against men, women, and children by Nazi forces during the next 5 years of the war. The point is they either intentionally misrepresent this event or meme it as ammunition for the bulk of low-information, propaganda driven Reich sympathiazers who, after this is explained to them, will go silent, and the next day be seen once again peddling this meme to justify the war, "without the slightest recollection of the day before, as if nothing had happened" ( :lol: ) just like they do with debunked holocaust denial tropes, since it was never about facts.

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Re: Why didn't Germany avoid the war?

Post by Alonso »

Enigma Charlie wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:12 am
Hitler always wanted a war
Boyar wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:24 pm
Stories of Danzig massacres were just propaganda for the masses
It was not my purpose to discuss these ideas when I created this thread, I just wanted to get the kind of answer that been-there provided, and since I already have that answer, the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled as far as I'm concerned. However, I will certainly be happy to discuss with you and others the ideas you have expressed. I don't think that this is the right thread to do so, though, those ideas are complex enough to deserve their own threads. If you're still interested, please create new threads to discuss them, or, in the very likely case that such threads already exist, let me know where to find them so that we can continue the discussion there.

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