Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Lupus Rothstein » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:57 am

been-there wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:52 am
.
...And you ignored these questions:
Who do you think benefits from that belief that the Koran is intrinsically 'anti-semitic'?
Cui bono?

Then look at some of the quotes and think it through for yourself. Are they really ALL quotes that show a prejudice against ALL Jews?

Don't you understand yet how this 'anti-semite' smear works and who is using that? And for what end?
Allow me :

1) It is irrelevant who 'benefits'. The text is either anti-semitic or not. Some verses, especially the later ones are blatantly intolerent, anti-Christian and anti-Semitic. These are the facts of the situation. If someone then decides to highlight this fact, you cannot then accuse him of acting out some sinister agenda to demonise Islam.


2) The quotes that you presented were a result of your lack of understanding of the context of the chapters. They are therefore worthless as a defence against the claims that the Quran is intolerant and anti semitic etc.

3) See answer number 1)

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Re: misrepresenting religious scriptures to justify prejudice

Post by Werd » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:01 am

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:38 am
been-there wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:29 am
Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:17 am
...Read the Koran and how hostile it is to Jews.
Have YOU read the Koran and studied it, Werd?

Read it, study it and you will find it is NOT hostile to all Jews because they are Jews. That is not correct. On the contrary. It promotes respect, tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

[2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and be faithful to your covenant with me, I will fulfill my covenant with you;...

[2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day [Day of Judgement] and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


.. .. .. .. .. ..


I assume from your opening sentence that you have actually read chapter 2 of the Quran , although not necessarily understood it ?

The part of the chapter from which the first 2 verses relate to consist of Allah chastising Jews for objecting to Islam . He is reminding them of events from the past , for example from the time of Moses, when he apparently helped them escape from slavery in Egypt, and is therefore demanding they now show some gratitude and convert to Islam. In no way should these two verses be used to demonstrate the falsehood that Islam and the Quran displays tolerance to non-believers. You have either not read the chapter properly or you have been brainwashed by Islamic apologists. Judging by some of your comments you have made since on this thread , I get a slight sense of unease about your true motives here.

Your failure to understand not only the context of chapter 2, but most probably the whole Quran too, has resulted in you producing a third useless 'example' from this chapter, 2:62. The non-Muslims that Allah is referring to here are those who believed in their own prophets back in the time , ie in the past. Later verses, eg 5:68, 4:152, 4:136, 48:13 (applying widely accepted process of 'Abrogation' ) make it clear that now Muhammed has arrived on the scene, all these non-Muslims from the present day must now accept him as Gods final prophet, and the Quran as Allah's final book . In other words unless they convert to Islam then they will either burn in hell , or will have to pay a tax in order to enter 'paradise', where they can spend the rest of eternity as a servant, or sex slave .

So my friend, if you are under the illusion that the non-Muslims of Muhammed's day would all go to 'paradise' without converting to Islam first, then you are seriously deluded.
So Lupus I have a serious question for you. But before you indulge me, I would appreciate if if you took a look at this post of mine:
viewtopic.php?p=153770#p153770

Now that you have read it, be so kind as to tell me who I put at the top of the conspiracy pyramid that is NOT JEWISH/ISRAELI/ZIONIST. I want you to publicly acknowledge my words. Now after that, I want you to answer these questions honestly. Since you're aware of how bad Islam is, are you also willing to admit:

1. what Muslims are doing in Europe at huge rates in terms of rape, assault and other crimes?
2. that many leftist Jews are promoting and cheerleading for open borders in Europe?
3. This is causing resentment and anti-semitism?
4. That it is a slap in the face to the fleeing Jews in the 40's looking for refuge from Germany being compared to Muslims that come from a traditionally non-liberal culture that treats women and girls poorly?
5. That being a conservative and wanting closed borders doesn't leave no room inside the person for a dislike of fascism as a form of government? That people like my grandparents were real and actually existed?

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:03 am

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:57 am
Allow me :

1) It is irrelevant who 'benefits'. The text is either anti-semitic or not. Some verses, especially the later ones are blatantly intolerent, anti-Christian and anti-Semitic. These are the facts of the situation. If someone then decides to highlight this fact, you cannot then accuse him of acting out some sinister agenda to demonise Islam.


2) The quotes that you presented were a result of your lack of understanding of the context of the chapters. They are therefore worthless as a defence against the claims that the Quran is intolerant and anti semitic etc.

3) See answer number 1)
So Lupus I have a serious question for you. But before you indulge me, I would appreciate if if you took a look at this post of mine:
viewtopic.php?p=153770#p153770

Now that you have read it, be so kind as to tell me who I put at the top of the conspiracy pyramid that is NOT JEWISH/ISRAELI/ZIONIST. I want you to publicly acknowledge my words. Now after that, I want you to answer these questions honestly. Since you're aware of how bad Islam is, are you also willing to admit:

1. what Muslims are doing in Europe at huge rates in terms of rape, assault and other crimes?
2. that many leftist Jews are promoting and cheerleading for open borders in Europe?
3. This is causing resentment and anti-semitism?
4. That it is a slap in the face to the fleeing Jews in the 40's looking for refuge from Germany being compared to Muslims that come from a traditionally non-liberal culture that treats women and girls poorly?
5. That being a conservative and wanting closed borders doesn't leave no room inside the person for a dislike of fascism as a form of government? That people like my grandparents were real and actually existed?

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been-there
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Re: misrepresenting religious scriptures to justify prejudice

Post by been-there » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:39 am

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:38 am
been-there wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:29 am
Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:17 am
...Read the Koran and how hostile it is to Jews.
Have YOU read the Koran and studied it, Werd?

Read it, study it and you will find it is NOT hostile to all Jews because they are Jews. That is not correct. On the contrary. It promotes respect, tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

[2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and be faithful to your covenant with me, I will fulfill my covenant with you;...

[2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day [Day of Judgement] and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
I assume from your opening sentence that you have actually read chapter 2 of the Quran , although not necessarily understood it ?
Hi Lupus.
Thanks for your reply.
Yes I have read much of the Koran and studied it. I had a period in my life where I read and studied the revered scriptures of all religions just to see what was written there.
It was admittedly some decades ago now that I read the Koran. So I just re-read chapter two again to see if you were correct and that I had misunderstood it.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:38 am
The part of the chapter from which the first 2 verses relate to consist of Allah chastising Jews for objecting to Islam.
Well, after re-reading it I still don't interpret it that way.
I think that is a distortingly retro-active assessment. One that assumes only one revelation from God is correct and all others are false. I presume it comes from the view that Judaism has the one correct and true revelation.

Whatever, as I read it, it wasn't a chastisement from God for rejecting a new religion, as you appear to believe. It was instead given as a chastisement for again rejecting God and his prophets/messengers. The message in the Koran claimed to be the words that Muhammad believed were revealed to him from God. That is from the same God who supposedly sent the Hebrew Prophets and Jesus. And the message this God was giving to them via Muhammad, God was saying he had given to all the Hebrew Prophets and to Jesus and then to Muhammad. Those Jews were expected to accept it was one and the same message. So Jews of Muhammed's time were not being asked to 'convert' to something new. Just to accept a new revelation of the same message from a new Prophet or messenger.

The crucial thing to understand is that the words are supposedly direct from God, revealed via his latest 'messenger'.
Muhammad himself believed that — and so he told those who listened to understand that the words he was revealing were not from himself but was God talking directly to those people alive then. So this chapter contains words given specifically to Jews of that time who were questioning Muhammed, doubting his 'messenger' claim, ridiculing him and even attempting to kill him and enslave his followers.
I think it has to be read in THAT context.
40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge to you, and fear Me.
41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations for a small price; and be conscious of Me.
42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know.
43. And attend to your prayers, and practice regular charity, and kneel with those who kneel.
44. Do you command people to virtuous conduct, and forget yourselves, even though you read the [Jewish] Scripture? Do you not understand?
45. Seek help through patience and prayer. But it is difficult, except for the devout and
46. those who know that they will meet their Lord, and that to Him they will return.
47. O Children of Israel! Remember My favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I favoured you over all nations.
48. And beware of a Day when no soul will avail another in the least, nor will any intercession be accepted on its behalf, nor will any ransom be taken from it, nor will they be helped.
That sounds to me like exactly the same warning that all the Hebrew Prophets gave to the Hebrew peoples of their times.
Would you regard Ezekiel, Micah, Joel, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, etc., and all the other Hebrew prophets as 'anti-semites' for "chastising" Jews and telling them to believe and act upon THEIR message?
The words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament similarly "chastises" the Jewish people of his time, and invited them to follow his message. Do you regard him also as an anti-semite with an intrinsically anti-semitic message and teaching?

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:38 am
He is reminding them of events from the past, for example from the time of Moses, when he apparently helped them escape from slavery in Egypt, and is therefore demanding they now show some gratitude and convert to Islam.
No, not "convert" to a new and different religion. Islam means submission. The words are supposedly direct from God via a new living prophet in their own time, exhorting them to reaffirm their covenant with him and to submit to his guidance and message given to them through his new messenger.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:38 am
In no way should these two verses be used to demonstrate the falsehood that Islam and the Quran displays tolerance to non-believers. You have either not read the chapter properly or you have been brainwashed by Islamic apologists. Judging by some of your comments you have made since on this thread , I get a slight sense of unease about your true motives here.

Your failure to understand not only the context of chapter 2, but most probably the whole Quran too, has resulted in you producing a third useless 'example' from this chapter, 2:62. The non-Muslims that Allah is referring to here are those who believed in their own prophets back in the time , ie in the past. Later verses, eg 5:68, 4:152, 4:136, 48:13 (applying widely accepted process of 'Abrogation' ) make it clear that now Muhammed has arrived on the scene, all these non-Muslims from the present day must now accept him as Gods final prophet, and the Quran as Allah's final book . In other words unless they convert to Islam then they will either burn in hell , or will have to pay a tax in order to enter 'paradise', where they can spend the rest of eternity as a servant, or sex slave .

So my friend, if you are under the illusion that the non-Muslims of Muhammed's day would all go to 'paradise' without converting to Islam first, then you are seriously deluded.
That is NOT what the actual words in the Koran say.
81. Indeed, whoever commits misdeeds, and becomes besieged by his iniquities — these are the inmates of the Fire, wherein they will dwell forever.
82. As for those who believe and do righteous deeds — these are the inhabitants of Paradise, wherein they will dwell forever.
83. We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: “Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” Then you turned away, except for a few of you, recanting.
That isn't saying converting to a new religion and giving up their old one is crucial. It is saying genuinely following your religion, believing in God, obeying him, how you are living and what you are actually DOing is crucial.
2.62. Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day [Day of Judgement] and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:49 pm

81. Indeed, whoever [highlight=]commits misdeeds, and becomes besieged by his iniquities[/highlight] — these are the inmates of the Fire, wherein they will dwell forever.
82. As for those who believe and [highlight=]do righteous deeds[/highlight] — these are the inhabitants of Paradise, wherein they will dwell forever.
83. We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: “Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” Then you turned away, except for a few of you, recanting.
That isn't saying converting to a new religion and giving up their old one is crucial. It is saying genuinely following your religion, believing in God, obeying him, how you are living and what you are actually DOing is crucial.
Been-there wants to make Islam ecumenical. It isn't. He knows this because he was just shown one of his interpretations as such was wrong. Been-there also claims I dodge certain verses. He dodges this Hadith.
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 37:6665, See also: Sahih Muslim 37:6666, Sahih Muslim 37:6667, and Sahih Muslim 37:6668
Let me guess. It's a weak Hadith. :lol:

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by been-there » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:07 pm

Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:49 pm
81. Indeed, whoever commits misdeeds, and becomes besieged by his iniquities — these are the inmates of the Fire, wherein they will dwell forever.
82. As for those who believe and do righteous deeds — these are the inhabitants of Paradise, wherein they will dwell forever.
83. We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: “Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” Then you turned away, except for a few of you, recanting.
That isn't saying converting to a new religion and giving up their old one is crucial. It is saying genuinely following your religion, believing in God, obeying him, how you are living and what you are actually DOing is crucial.
Been-there wants to make Islam ecumenical. It isn't. He knows this because he was just shown one of his interpretations as such was wrong. Been-there also claims I dodge certain verses. He dodges this Hadith.
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 37:6665, See also: Sahih Muslim 37:6666, Sahih Muslim 37:6667, and Sahih Muslim 37:6668
Let me guess. It's a weak Hadith. :lol:
Which is the more credible and authoritative expression of Islamic belief :
a.) Abu Burda claiming a saying that he said he had heard from his father, after Muhammed was long dead, i.e. second hand testimony?
OR
b.) the words memorised, recited, compared and (some) written down by thousands of muslims WHILE HE WAS ALIVE and then preserved as the direct words spoken by Muhammed which he claimed were revealed to him by his deity?

You appear to be in denial, Werd.
I write that as you keep denying quotes taken from the Koran. Presumably because they contradict your cherished prejudice.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:23 pm

Now been-there wants to switch gears from someone working from within Islam from a theological point of view (it actually says this), to working from without as a critic (should we really believe the Hadiths are Mohammad's words or not). Nice attempt at a bait and switch.The point is that Muslims accept the Hadiths. So you can't say the Koran matters but not the Hadith. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the majority of Muslims.
Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:46 am
been-there wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:41 am
Neither does haditha have the same weight nor judicial bearing within Islam as the Koran
Try again.
While the number of verses pertaining to law in the Quran is relatively few, ahadith give direction on everything from details of religious obligations (such as Ghusl or Wudu, ablutions[4] for salat prayer), to the correct forms of salutations[5] and the importance of benevolence to slaves.[6] Thus the "great bulk" of the rules of Sharia (Islamic law) are derived from ahadith, rather than the Qur'an.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
What the Talmud is to Judaism and the Pentateuch, the Hadith is to Islam and the Koran.
Gotta love been-there the guilty white liberal. He knows Islam better than Muslims apparently. :lol:

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:19 am

Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:23 pm
Now been-there wants to switch gears from someone working from within Islam from a theological point of view (it actually says this), to working from without as a critic (should we really believe the Hadiths are Mohammad's words or not). Nice attempt at a bait and switch.The point is that Muslims accept the Hadiths. So you can't say the Koran matters but not the Hadith. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the majority of Muslims.
Werd, what are you doing?
I asked you personally to consider which was the more credible and authoritative expression of Islam: one saying from an admitted second-hand source, or the Koran itself.

You dodged that question and replied to something else. Why would you need to do that if you were open to a genuine dialogue and an honest investigation of this point?

I did not argue that "the Koran matters but not the Hadith".
So this I regard as a dishonest reply from you to your own strawman distortion.
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:23 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:46 am
been-there wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:41 am
Neither does haditha have the same weight nor judicial bearing within Islam as the Koran
Try again.
While the number of verses pertaining to law in the Quran is relatively few, ahadith give direction on everything from details of religious obligations (such as Ghusl or Wudu, ablutions[4] for salat prayer), to the correct forms of salutations[5] and the importance of benevolence to slaves.[6] Thus the "great bulk" of the rules of Sharia (Islamic law) are derived from ahadith, rather than the Qur'an.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
What the Talmud is to Judaism and the Pentateuch, the Hadith is to Islam and the Koran.
Gotta love been-there the guilty white liberal. He knows Islam better than Muslims apparently. :lol:
This also strikes me as a dishonest reply that tries to prove a point by omitting extremely well-known facts and by distorting what I have actually argued. I don't claim to know Islam better than muslims. On the contrary, I have learnt about it from reading the writings of muslims and talking to them.

You appear to me to be denying the obvious. Which is that there are many different branches, sects and viewpoints within Islam and they don't all agree on this point. Plus different branches of Islam refer to different collections of hadith, but ALL Muslims revere and follow the same Koran.

A minority of muslims disregard ALL Haditha; they are called Quranists.
Most Muslims revere Hadith so they are called Hadithists, but here again there is disagreement on how to view them.
Among most hadithists, the importance of hadith is secondary to Qur'an given that, at least in theory, an Islamic conflict of laws doctrine holds Qur'anic supremacy above hadith in developing Islamic jurisprudence.
However, a minority of hadithists have historically placed hadith on a par with the Qur'an.
A smaller minority have upheld hadith in contradiction to the Qur'an, thereby placing hadith above Qur'an and claiming that contradictory hadith abrogate the parts of the Qur'an where they conflict.

It has been narrated through a chain of narrators, including Muhammad ibn Isma'il and originating with Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, that the Prophet Muhammad once addressed his people in Mina saying:
‘O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith, if it agrees with the Holy Book of Allah, it is genuine, but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah you must know that I have not said it.'
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:06 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:19 am
I asked you personally to consider which was the more credible and authoritative expression of Islam: one saying from an admitted second-hand source, or the Koran itself.
I'll check the Koran myself, just like I check the Talmud myself. I don't need a Jew to tell me what's in the Talmud and I don't need a Muslim to tell me what's in the Koran or Hadith.
You dodged that question and replied to something else. Why would you need to do that if you were open to a genuine dialogue and an honest investigation of this point?
I love how been-there lectures me when he is the one continuing to dodge his own claim by refusing to prove it. Flashback:
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:49 am
I STILL think because of that you have become an unwitting agent/pawn of a Zionist agenda.
And you're back on this bullshit again. Okay fine. Come back and prove it.
Werd wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:53 pm
The reason been-there wastes time on words like "from" and "anymore" and "unwitting" (only to lose), is to avoid what I showed on page 3
viewtopic.php?p=139424#p139424
viewtopic.php?p=139433#p139433
viewtopic.php?p=139435#p139435
and page 4
viewtopic.php?p=139663#p139663
Don't run away this time like a coward. Define unwitting agent/pawn/shill, whatever... and then link and quote. You refused to do it last time. Wanna try again?
Next.
I did not argue that "the Koran matters but not the Hadith".
By using quotation marks, are you quoting just me, or are you using them to quote me allegedly quoting you? Because I never said you said those words. Those are only my words. Perhaps a poor choice of one. The reason you focus on them ONLY, is sneaky. Because I busted your lie from months ago that the hadith doesn't hold the same weight as the Koran in Islamic law. That was the point of bringing back this old quote.
Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:46 am
been-there wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:41 am
Neither does haditha have the same weight nor judicial bearing within Islam as the Koran
Try again.
While the number of verses pertaining to law in the Quran is relatively few, ahadith give direction on everything from details of religious obligations (such as Ghusl or Wudu, ablutions[4] for salat prayer), to the correct forms of salutations[5] and the importance of benevolence to slaves.[6] Thus the "great bulk" of the rules of Sharia (Islamic law) are derived from ahadith, rather than the Qur'an.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
What the Talmud is to Judaism and the Pentateuch, the Hadith is to Islam and the Koran.
You refuse to see the forest for the trees on this particular issue. Because you know you lost. The reason I said the following quote of you:
Gotta love been-there the guilty white liberal. He knows Islam better than Muslims apparently. :lol:
Was to make a mockery of your immense error about the place of the Hadith. You obviously don't know better because Muslim scholars and Muslims themselves have already decided on the place of the Hadith. Something YOU GOT WRONG. Hence the lol logo showing the sarcasm. I guess you can't pick up on subtext.
I have learnt about it from reading the writings of muslims and talking to them.
Oh I get it now: You ask me a rhetorical question designed to show that it's more reliable to check the Koran itself, but then you mention talking to other Muslims and asking their opinion. As if that matters or is even necessary when you have the book for yourself to read. Nice flip flop.
Which is that there are many different branches, sects and viewpoints within Islam and they don't all agree on this point. Plus different branches of Islam refer to different collections of hadith, but ALL Muslims revere and follow the same Koran.
If only more would become apostates and stop practicing pedophilia, acid attacks, rape gangs, child marriage, clitoral removal, and wife beating and polygamy, the world would be a better place.

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:41 am

.
Ho-hum.

You DID write this:
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:23 pm
So you can't say the Koran matters but not the Hadith.
So that was a strawman argument, as I never argued that.

And you DID write this:
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:23 pm
If you have a problem with that, take it up with the majority of Muslims.
I HAVE already discussed this with Muslims.
So then you castigate me for that?
Werd wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:06 am
...then you mention talking to other Muslims and asking their opinion. As if that matters or is even necessary when you have the book for yourself to read. Nice flip flop.
Do you see? I can't prevail with you because you aren't in an open, honest discussion.

Then you write this:
Werd wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:06 am
I busted your lie from months ago that the hadith doesn't hold the same weight as the Koran in Islamic law.
You've switched an argument from whether Muhammed and the Koran allows Muslims to be friends with Jews and Christians to Islamic law (shariah)?!?! :?
So that's another strawman argument from you.

Whatever...
The basic point remains proven: the majority of muslims of whatever branch or sect regard the Koran as MORE authorative than any hadith.

“...the importance of hadith is secondary to Qur'an... ”
been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:19 am
You appear to me to be denying the obvious. Which is that there are many different branches, sects and viewpoints within Islam and they don't all agree on this point. Plus different branches of Islam refer to different collections of hadith, but ALL Muslims revere and follow the same Koran.

A minority of muslims disregard ALL Haditha; they are called Quranists.
Most Muslims revere Hadith so they are called Hadithists, but here again there is disagreement on how to view them.
Among most hadithists, the importance of hadith is secondary to Qur'an given that, at least in theory, an Islamic conflict of laws doctrine holds Qur'anic supremacy above hadith in developing Islamic jurisprudence.
However, a minority of hadithists have historically placed hadith on a par with the Qur'an.
A smaller minority have upheld hadith in contradiction to the Qur'an, thereby placing hadith above Qur'an and claiming that contradictory hadith abrogate the parts of the Qur'an where they conflict.

It has been narrated through a chain of narrators, including Muhammad ibn Isma'il and originating with Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, that the Prophet Muhammad once addressed his people in Mina saying:
O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith,
if it agrees with the Holy Book of Allah, it is genuine,
but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah
you must know that I have not said it
.'
Bottom line, I still genuinely suggest to you that your view of Islam, their Prophet and of all muslims is deeply distorted, hateful and prejudiced.

I again suggest you consider that this is because you have been radicalised by a predominantly zionist, Jewish-led distortion, spread by them to benefit zionist agendas.

You don't have to like Islam or disregard crimes and negative attitudes of Muslim immigrants to acknowledge this.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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