Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

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Werd
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Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd »

Even gay ones who have a nazi theme about their gayness. Liberal Jews don't get why gays are leaving the left. What follows are SELECT QUOTES. Not the whole article - Werd.


https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/0 ... ement.html
How the Alt-Right Is Using Sex and Camp to Attract Gay Men to Fascism

By Donna Minkowitz
June 05, 20174:01 PM


At the National Policy Institute’s 2015 conference, alt-right star Richard Spencer’s annual Nazi-fest, a speaker named Jack Donovan exhorted the crowd “to leave the world the way you entered it, kicking and screaming and covered in somebody else’s blood.” The same year, in the pages of the The Occidental Observer, one of the most prominent white nationalist webzines, another alt-righter, James J. O’Meara, held forth about how “behind the Negro, hidden away, as always, is the darker, more sinister figure of the Judeo. The Negro is the shock troop. The Jew is the ultimate beneficiary.” Aside from being open fascists and “white racialists,” Donovan and O’Meara have another thing in common: They’re both out gay men.

In his book The Homo and the Negro, O’Meara says that gay white men represent the best of what Western culture has to offer because of their “intelligence” and “beauty,” and that “Negroes” represent the worst, being incapable of “achievement.” Donovan calls women “whores” and “bitches,” and, when a questioner on Reddit asked him his views of the Holocaust, responded, “What is this Holocaust thing? I’m drawing a blank.”

Both have become influential figures in the alt-right; horribly, they are not the only gay men to respond to an olive branch lately offered by white nationalism. The opening of this movement to cisgender gay men is a radical change, “one of the biggest changes I’ve seen on the right in 40 years,” says Chip Berlet, co-author of Right-Wing Populism in America. In the United States, unlike in Europe, out gay men have never been welcome in white supremacist groups. The Klan and neo-Nazi groups, the main previous incarnations of white hate in this country, were and still are violently anti-queer. And while a subset of openly gay men has always been conservative (or, as in all populations, casually racist), they never sought to join the racist right.

That was before groups like NPI, Counter-Currents Publishing, and American Renaissance started putting out the welcome mat. Since around 2010, some (though by no means all) groups in the leadership of the white nationalist movement have been inviting out cis gay men to speak at their conferences, write for their magazines, and be interviewed in their journals. Donovan and O’Meara, far to the right of disgraced provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos, are the white nationalist movement’s actual queer stars. But there are others in the ranks, like Douglas Pearce of the popular neofolk band Death in June. And there are many more gay men (and some trans women) who have been profoundly influenced by two white nationalist ideas: the “threat” posed by Islam and the “danger” posed by immigrants.
There you go. When liberals and Jews go soft on ACTUAL THREATS TO THE LIBERAL VALUES THEY UPHOLD, THEY DRIVE PEOPLE AWAY. Funny how insane lefty Jews who make excuses for Islam are not responsible for people leaving when they are sick of their bullshit. Does this lefty Jew live near any Muslim areas in any European country? Have they checked the rape/murder/assault/explosion and fire stats or are they just shouting platitudes and virtue signaling?
Donovan tries to sugarcoat his own racist beliefs when speaking to his main fan base, gay men who like his macho looks and straight men from the “pickup artist” culture and the manosphere who are desperately trying to learn from him how to be manly. Instead, reverting to the other half of the Nazi playbook, he prefers to highlight his hatred for “effeminacy,” feminism, and “weakness.” A beautifully muscular man of 42 who has perfected a masculine scowl in the many photographs of himself he releases on his website and Facebook page, he functions as beefcake for the neofascist cause. He’s parlayed his butch allure into a brand, earning money from a line of T-shirts and wrist guards that say things like BARBARIAN and a series of books that seek to instruct both straight and gay men in how to become more masculine and in particular, more “violent.”

One of my Facebook friends, a politically liberal gay man I’ll call Frank, is a fan of Donovan’s Facebook page “because of the visuals. I like his looks—I mean, he’s bald with tattoos. He really exudes a lot of sex.” Frank also likes that Donovan “trashes that whole gay club scene,” which Frank finds conformist and alienating.
Moving on.
But Donovan’s recent hand-wringing does not erase the fact that on his website he’s repeatedly said real men want to “control our borders,” decried the “black-on-white crime rate,” denounced “the deeply entrenched anti-white bias” of our culture, and said, “I support White Nationalists,” who “I call … ‘The Mighty Whites.’ ” Recently, he admiringly interviewed the two young men who lead Germany’s anti-African, anti-Arab identitarian movement. On his podcast, the men, one of whom used to belong to a neo-Nazi group in Austria, boast about attacking a mosque and disrupting refugee theater. He also has begun whispering praise for Julius Evola, the Italian anti-Semite and fascist who joined Hitler’s SS.

If Donovan is a caricature of the gay Nazi strongman—almost a personification of the phrase “body fascism” (which was originally used by gay men to critique other gay men’s obsession with perfect gym bodies)—his counterpart, James O’Meara, is an embodiment of something that could barely be imagined until now: Nazi camp. I hesitate to write that phrase, because it’s almost painful to acknowledge that camp—that subversive, gay “turning” of seriousness into playfulness and straight narratives into gay ones—could be deployed by a Nazi. But of course it can: If the emergence of out gay white nationalists shows anything, it’s that LGBTQ people truly are everywhere, for good and for ill. And that we no longer have the luxury of assuming that queer tropes are inherently, and trans-historically, progressive.
Next.
So why are white nationalists smiling in our direction? Most importantly, because it worked in Europe. In Holland, France, Germany, and Sweden, white nationalists have deliberately used LGBTQ people and Muslims as a wedge against one another. Polls show that over one third of French gay men supported Le Pen in the recent election despite her promise to end same-sex marriage, and in Germany, the far-right AfD recently tapped an out lesbian banker to run for chancellor. (The AfD is even more hostile to actual pro-gay policies than France’s National Front is.) Sweden’s fascist party organized an LGBTQ pride parade through Muslim neighborhoods, and of course, in Holland, Pim Fortuyn and later Geert Wilders tried to make “Islam” synonymous with “hatred of gays.” Their ultimate goal was to make hatred of immigrants “progressive.”
Do you hear that? Islam has NO PROBLEM WITH GAY PEOPLE. This lying Jew is a sack of shit.
There is another potential benefit: If white supremacists can equate “Muslims” with attacks on LGBTQ people—and women—they might be able to attract liberals and moderates into a kind of anti-immigrant “big tent.” This would complement their effort to portray racism as “pro-worker.” It’s hardly incidental that both Donovan and O’Meara see themselves as anti-capitalist. Like the many gay men who joined Hitler’s SA (the unit led by the out Ernst Röhm), they see a Nazi-like movement as somehow offering salvation from both antigay and economic oppression. (Of course, Hitler ultimately slaughtered Röhm and other SA gay men in the Night of the Long Knives.)
Beating women for being raped, beating women in general because she is the husband's property, girls inheriting less than boys, chopping off girls' clits, that is all fictional. No Muslim has ever done that. Got it. Thanks for clarifying
The far right is attempting to seduce gay men in some of the same ways the early Nazi movement reached out to them, before mowing queers down in the name of fascist ideals. Only two days after the massacre at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando last year, white-nationalist meme producer (and proud homophobe) Butch Leghorn wrote on the alt-right website The Right Stuff, “This shooting [is] a very valuable wedge issue. … We simply need to hammer this issue … Spread this meeting. Drive this wedge. Smash their coalition. Make it cool to be anti-Muslim because Liberalism.” Butch and his co-activists put out a plethora of memes for the occasion with, for example, a rainbow flag and the words FUCK ISLAM, and the phrases, “To be pro-Islam is to be anti-Gay … Daddy’s gonna build a wall and keep you safe.” Said Leghorn on The Right Stuff: “We are currently driving this wedge as deeply as possible to break off the Pro-Gay coalition into the Trump camp.”
And liberals/Jews did this to themselves. Jews are supposed to know better than to ally with Islam and push for mass Islam immigration. Read the Koran and how hostile it is to Jews. The white world at large figured that Jews wouldn't stab their host nations in the back by demanding mass Muslim immigration. Turns out the gentiles were wrong.
Longtime LGBTQ organizer Scot Nakagawa has been fighting white nationalist movements for over 30 years, now as a senior partner at ChangeLab, a think tank on racial justice. Says Nakagawa, “We have to remember that even racist white gay men are still very vulnerable to discrimination” because they’re gay. “When one is under attack”—not by phantom Muslims, but by real, neighborhood gaybashers—“one picks up whatever shields one can,” even shields like racism that will not fight the true threat. In Donovan’s writing, it’s clear that what he’s terrified of most is “weakness,” especially male weakness. (He notes that he feels “disgusting” if he doesn’t train in a gym “for more than a few days.”) It doesn’t take a psychoanalyst to guess that, at bottom, he feels profoundly weak and vulnerable. O’Meara, for his part, fears that he will be destroyed by African-American and Jewish “rot” and pollution. It doesn’t take a psychoanalyst to guess that he feels dirty, and at risk of decaying from within.
White bigotry exists. Therefore bring in anyone who's brown to stop white bigotry. Even Muslims. No. ESPECIALLY MUSLIMS. Brilliant! LOL. See that thought? Muslim terrorists are a phantom. They don't exist!

I will make this very clear for liberals. Hopefully the non-regressives who understand the threat of Islam will pass this on and manage to covert a few people back to sanity and reality.

WHEN LIBERALS REFUSE TO ENFORCE BORDERS, FASCISTS WILL!

WHEN YOU LIE ABOUT ISLAM, ENOUGH WILL GET SICK AND LEAVE THE LEFT!

WHEN YOU ALLY WITH ISLAM BUT DON'T SHOW IT WITH WHERE YOU LIVE, WALK, OR SPEND FREE TIME, PEOPLE WILL NOTICE YOU NOT PUTTING YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!

WHEN YOU ALLY WITH THE FOREIGNER MORE THAN THE NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, YOU PROVE THE ANTI-SEMITES' POINT ABOUT JEWS BEING CULTURAL DISTORTERS AND PARASITES. YOU PROVE THE POINT ABOUT EITHER DUAL OR MISPLACED LOYALTY.

A lot of anti semitism is earned. It's caused by Jews. They absolutely refuse to examine their own behaviour and take responsibility for the stupid shit the say and push for.


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been-there
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Re: misrepresenting religious scriptures to justify prejudice

Post by been-there »

Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:17 am
...Read the Koran and how hostile it is to Jews.
Have YOU read the Koran and studied it, Werd?

Read it, study it and you will find it is NOT hostile to all Jews because they are Jews. That is not correct. On the contrary. It promotes respect, tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

[2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and be faithful to your covenant with me, I will fulfill my covenant with you;...

[2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day [Day of Judgement] and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


And if you doubt that, here is an article by a muslim on this topic:

.. .. .. .. .. ..

Blog by Ro Wassem

A common misconception about the Quran is that it promotes hatred of Jews and Christians, and asks Muslims to not be friends with them...

Here’s [one such] much quoted verse:
O You who have believed! Do not take the Jews and Christians as your allies (Auliya). They are allies of one another. He among you who takes them for allies is one of them. God does not guide the oppressive folks.
-- Quran, 5:51


A plethora of lies are sold to the average Muslim to instigate enmity with other faiths, and so I will debunk these points step by step. Point 1 and 2 will explain how the verse above is misrepresented, and 3-6 would expand on further points.

1) Aulia is erroneously and inconsistently translated as friends by some translators. However, in Arabic, Aulia is more closely defined as a protector or an ally. It has been used in the Quran to mostly signify that God protects (Wali) the believers through revelation. This is not to be confused with Khaleel, which does mean friend, but is an honour given exclusively to Ibrahim (4:125).

Keeping the context in mind, it is clear that the verse refers to political allies, and is not about friendship.

2) The verse, quite specifically, asks Muslims not to take Al-Yahood (Jews) and Al-Nasaraa (Christians) as an ally. Now, ‘Al’ in Arabic denotes an address to something or someone specific. If we are to assume that God asks us not to ally with any Jew or Christian, then on the same wavelength, we have to assume that all Arabs are the worst in hypocrisy and disbelief! Yes, it’s a verse in the Quran!

The Arabs (Al-Arab) are worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to ignore the Limits that God has revealed to His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
-- Quran, 9:97


Except, here the “scholars” would be quick to contextualise things, or else their model of praising Arabs as the “chosen” people and equating Arabic culture with Islam would fall flat on its face! It is an inconsistency in approach, and consistency is the only criteria to judge truthfulness.

Taking a consistent view, both verses inform us that *some* Arabs (Al-Arab) are worst in hypocrisy and disbelief, and that Muslims should not ally with *some* Jews and Christians (Al-Yahood and Al-Nasaraa). Quite obviously, it is addressing a group of Jews and Christians at the time of the Prophet, who continuously broke their oaths, stoking the fires of war against Muslims (5:64) and were thus their worst enemies (5:82).
Common sense would suggest that allying with the enemy would be a sure way to lose the war.

3) The Quran constantly reminds Muslims not to generalise Jews, Christians, and others; but to judge them by their actions:

They are not all the same. Among the people of the scripture [Jews] is a community standing [in obedience], reflecting and reciting the signs of God during periods of the night and they submit.
They believe in God and accountability; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works...
-- Quran, 3:113-114


God does not forbid you from being kind, and fully equitable to those who do not fight you on account of Religion, and do not evict you from your homelands. God loves those who lead a just, balanced life.
But God does forbid you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.
-- Quran, 60:8-9


4) Even traditional Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews and Christians. Is friendship a more sacred bond than marriage? Then how on earth can the Quran discourage us from befriending them?

5) Contrary to popular belief, Muslims do not have a monopoly on salvation. In fact, Jews and Christians, much like any other faith, are promised paradise should they “submit to God, do acts of reformation, and expect accountability” (2:62 & 5:69). The very act of claiming sole monopoly on truth and salvation is actually shunned by the Quran, of which, ironically, some of my Muslim brothers and sisters are guilty:
And they claim, “None will enter Paradise unless they are a Jew or a Christian.” This is nothing but their wishful thinking. Say, “Bring your proof if you are truthful.”
No, whoever submits his whole being to God, and is a doer of good to humanity, their reward is with their Lord. Then, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve. Quran, 2:111-112


6) The idea of alienating a group of people because of their faith alone is in fact contrary to the Quran, which actually promotes peaceful co-existence among citizens of varying backgrounds:

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes so that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is deeply conscious of Him. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.
-- Quran, 49:13


Conclusion
If anything, Muslims should be the last to generalise people of other faiths. They are vocal on how every Muslim shouldn’t be stereotyped as a terrorist because of the actions of a few terrorist groups seeming to represent “Islam”, yet generalise and put all Jews in one box because of the actions of the Israeli government and the “super rich bankers that control the world.”
I condemn fundamentalist Zionists, just how I condemn fundamentalist Islamists. However, I don’t buy the propaganda on both sides of badmouthing every Jew or Muslim because of the extremist actions of some.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/6-convin ... ugCypqZvt2
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Werd
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd »

been-there should know better, but he doesn't. He can't even admit the problems Muslims are causing in Sweden, his own back yard. Ever since I exposed him and his dishonest debating tactics most recently here pages (7-9), he has felt it necessary to double down on whatever incorrect thing he is saying.


Antisemitism in Islamic scripture
The Qur'an

The following is a list of some of the anti-Semitic statements found within the Qur'an.

According to the Qur'an; Jews are only satisfied if you follow Judaism.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
Quran 2:120
Jews must believe in the Qur'an or else Allah will distort their faces and take away their fame so that they become unrecognizable, turning them backwards, or curse them.
O ye People of the Book!* believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
Quran 4:47
According to the Qur'an, the Jews knowing full well that Isa was a Messenger of Allah, attempted to kill him in defiance of their deity.
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
Qur'an 4:156-159
Because the Jews are sinful, Allah made more rules for them than for anyone else, and they have hindered many from the way of Allah.
For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah's Way;-
Quran 4:160
Jews will listen to any lie.
O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
Quran 5:41
The Jews were stamped with humiliation and wretchedness.
And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.
Quran 2:61
Muslims must not take the Jews as friends and protectors or else Allah will not guide them.
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
Quran 5:51
Jews are the most hateful towards Muslims.
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
Quran 5:82
The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah which makes them perverse, and even Allah fights against them.
And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Quran 9:30
Allah turned some Jews into apes and pigs for breaking the Sabbath.
And well ye knew those amongst you [Children of Israel] who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
Quran 2:65
Most of the Jews are faithless, perverted transgressors.
Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
Quran 3:110
And Muslims must fight the Jews, until they submit in shame and pay the Jizyah.
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute [Jizya] readily, being brought low.
Quran 9:29
Since the Jews have said that Allah's hand is tied up, their hands will be tied up and they will be cursed. They are obstinant, rebellious, and blasphemous, and Allah has cursed them with enmity and hatred until Judgment day. Allah halts their efforts of warfare, and they are always causing mischief.
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
Quran 5:64
Satan (Iblis) too is cursed by Allah in the same way the Jews are cursed. He also granted respite to Satan until the Day of Judgment. Therefore, in Islamic theology there is no difference between Satan and Jews, because both are accursed.


The Hadith

Muhammad is central to Islam. As the uswa hasana (perfect example), even the most insignificant of actions on his part (recorded in the hadith) have a drastic effect upon the doctrines and laws of Islam, as emulating his Sunnah is seen as the most pious of endeavors.

Muhammad's dying words included a curse on Jews for building their place of worship at their prophets' graves.
Narrated 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: When the last moment of the life of Allah's Apostle came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets." The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:427
He claimed that during his "Night Journey" to heaven on the mythical flying Buraq, Moses wept because there would be more Muslims in heaven than Jews.
When I went (over the sixth heaven), there I saw Moses. Gabriel said (to me),' This is Moses; pay him your greeting. So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' When I left him (i.e. Moses) he wept. Someone asked him, 'What makes you weep?' Moses said, 'I weep because after me there has been sent (as Prophet) a young man whose followers will enter Paradise in greater numbers than my followers.'
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:227
He claimed that Jews earn Allah's anger.
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Say Amen' when the Imam says "Ghair-il-maghdubi 'alaihim wala-ddal-lin; not the path of those who earn Your Anger (such as Jews) nor of those who go astray (such as Christians); all the past sins of the person whose saying (of Amin) coincides with that of the angels, will be forgiven.
Sahih Bukhari 1:12:749
He told Muslims not to greet Jews before the Jews greet them, and that they should force Jews to go to the narrowest part of the road.
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.
Sahih Muslim 26:5389
He claimed the Final Hour will not come until Muslims slaughter Jews, and even the rocks and trees will betray the Jews hiding behind them. This portrayal of the Final Hour means a Muslim, who by faith has to believe in the Hour, has to also believe in this mass slaughter of Jews.
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
Sahih Muslim 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim 41:6981, Sahih Muslim 41:6982, Sahih Muslim 41:6983, Sahih Muslim 41:6984, and Sahih Bukhari 4:56:791
And he claimed Muslims will be spared hell-fire by Allah on the Day of Resurrection by making Jews take their place and be thrown into hell.
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 37:6665, See also: Sahih Muslim 37:6666, Sahih Muslim 37:6667, and Sahih Muslim 37:6668
Last edited by Werd on Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Werd
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd »

4) Even traditional Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews and Christians. Is friendship a more sacred bond than marriage? Then how on earth can the Quran discourage us from befriending them?
This guy can't even cite a verse to prove this. He just asks his own stupid rhetorical question. :lol:

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been-there
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by been-there »

Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:22 pm
4) Even traditional Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews and Christians. Is friendship a more sacred bond than marriage? Then how on earth can the Quran discourage us from befriending them?
This guy can't even cite a verse to prove this. He just asks his own stupid rhetorical question.
Oh Werd. Jeez man, wow, you have been so radicalised against Islam and ALL its millions of followers! :(

I have never denied people from predominantly muslim countries are causing problems in Sweden. :?

And look, you just posted a whole load of english translation of the Koran that are claimed to be anti-semitic.
Who do you think benefits from that belief that the Koran is intrinsically 'anti-semitic'?
Cui bono?

Then look at some of the quotes and think it through for yourself. Are they really ALL quotes that show a prejudice against ALL Jews?

Don't you understand yet how this 'anti-semite' smear works and who is using that? And for what end?

Then look, you just repeated the deceit that the Koran said Muslims couldn't be friends with Jews and Christians. And that directly after I posted an article by a muslim explaining why that is a false and dishonestly inconsistent interpretation of their scripture.

Then you go further and say this reference to Islamic tradition on that exact point is bogus because he gave no reference to any "verse"!! :o

Dude, he plainly wrote he was referring to Islamic tradition.

Maybe you don't know it, but any practising muslim would know that their Prophet Muhammed himself married a Jewish women. So clearly friendship is possible if marriage was possible, and if their own founder did that.

Her name was Safiyya. She was the daughter of Huyayy ibn Akhta who was the chief of the Jewish tribe Banu Nadir in Medina. The Banu Nadir Jews were expelled from Medina in 625 for breaking a loyalty treaty and for an assassination plot against Muhammad. Her father and brother fought against the Medina muslim Ummah at the battle of the trench and were killed.
Several Jewish tribes including the Banu Nadir waged war and attacked the Ummah again at the Battle of Khaybar in 629. Those tribes lost the battle and her husband, the treasurer of the tribe, was killed.
In those times without male protection women and children had no safety or status in Arabic society. So the women and children of tribes defeated in battle were taken in as slaves.
But Muhammed took her as a wife. She was considered very beautiful and this aroused some jealousy with other women in the nascent muslim community who expressed negative remarks to her for being a Jew. When she told Muhammad he advised her that when any other women insulted her for being Jewish she should respond: “Aaron is my father, Moses is my uncle, and Muhammad is my husband”.

P.S.
The tradition also records that Safiyya was married in 627 at the age of seventeen to the Jewish tribal treasurer. Once she had a dream that the moon fell from the sky into her lap. Her Jewish husband became angry when she told him of the dream, as he interpreted it as a secret desire of hers related to the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. In his anger he is said to have struck her in the face so violently that it left a mark which could still be seen when she later married Muhammad.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

Werd
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd »

been-there wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:31 pm
I have never denied people from predominantly muslim countries are causing problems in Sweden. :?
:roll:
Sure you did. By calling me islamophobic and being an unwitting agent/pawn of a Zionist agenda. It's all right here pages 7-9.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3538&start=60
Then look, you just repeated the deceit that the Koran said Muslims couldn't be friends with Jews and Christians. And that directly after I posted an article by a muslim explaining why that is a false and dishonestly inconsistent interpretation of their scripture.
1) Aulia is erroneously and inconsistently translated as friends by some translators. However, in Arabic, Aulia is more closely defined as a protector or an ally.
And I should believe him because...? Second of all, this is just like Talmud apologetics. What's wrong with taking them as allies or protectors? Why is that bad? He has simply moved the problem back one more step. Like an irrational theist who when he can't explain something says, "God did it?" Okay, what caused God?
Maybe you don't know it, but any practising muslim would know that their Prophet Muhammed himself married a Jewish women. So clearly friendship is possible if marriage was possible, and if their own founder did that.
Muhammad was a polygamist who married Aisha at 6 and fucked her at 9. He had many sex slaves. Taking a Jewish concubine doesn't make him a tolerant or nice man. You may as well claim that because the Israelites spared women and girls in the many wars they won and "kept them for themselves" instead of killing them, they weren't racist. I mean, they can't be bigoted or racist or warlords if they're willing to dignify the poor woman with his penis inside her, right?

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by been-there »

Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am
been-there wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:31 pm
I have never denied people from predominantly muslim countries are causing problems in Sweden. :?
:roll: Sure you did. By calling me islamophobic and being an unwitting agent/pawn of a Zionist agenda. It's all right here pages 7-9.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3538&start=60
That obviously isn't the same thing.
I still think your view is distorted by a visceral and irrational islamophobia and I STILL think because of that you have become an unwitting agent/pawn of a Zionist agenda.
You REALLY think that is the same as denying the problems caused by muslim immigrants in not just Sweden but Europe? Seriously?
I KNOW there are problems!! Which is why I would prefer it if you —and the many others like you — understood and tackled the cause, rather than complaining about and attacking the effect. That way we as a society can prevent this from increasing.

Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am
Then look, you just repeated the deceit that the Koran said Muslims couldn't be friends with Jews and Christians. And that directly after I posted an article by a muslim explaining why that is a false and dishonestly inconsistent interpretation of their scripture.
1) Aulia is erroneously and inconsistently translated as friends by some translators. However, in Arabic, Aulia is more closely defined as a protector or an ally.
And I should believe him because...? Second of all, this is just like Talmud apologetics. What's wrong with taking them as allies or protectors? Why is that bad? He has simply moved the problem back one more step.
You shouldn't believe him because of anything. There is no should. But you could respond to his reasoned argument if you disagree or think its wrong for some reason. But just to ignore it entirely and repeat what he has just shown makes no logical sense...? That rather shows you don't have a logical, reasoned, considered view, but instead have an irrational, emotional prejudice and hatred that is impervious to reason or argument.

And what was wrong with that at that time was those Jewish tribes were trying to kill Muhammed and destroy his community. Jeez! You clearly didn't even understand that guy's argument. And you appear to have no idea of the history or any interest in the historical context! Do you?

Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am
Maybe you don't know it, but any practising muslim would know that their Prophet Muhammed himself married a Jewish women. So clearly friendship is possible if marriage was possible, and if their own founder did that.
Muhammad was a polygamist who married Aisha at 6 and fucked her at 9.
Believe that if it floats your boat. But we've been over that. Its ahistorical, islamaphobic misinformation.
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am
He had many sex slaves. Taking a Jewish concubine doesn't make him a tolerant or nice man. You may as well claim that because the Israelites spared women and girls in the many wars they won and "kept them for themselves" instead of killing them, they weren't racist. I mean, they can't be bigoted or racist or warlords if they're willing to dignify the poor woman with his penis inside her, right?
I gave you historical detail about the Jewish wife because there is a historical cultural context which anti-muslims disregard. Again you've just ignored all that and continued to post ahistorical lies to further your prejudice and hatred. And this from you, the one who disregarded a reference to tradition because it wasn't backed up by a Koranic verse or hadith? Yet now you will argue a view that contradicts all the haditha? Logically inconsistent.

I'm not justifying the actions of men in 7thC Arabia, nor the culture that existed then.
Just as I have never justified the attitudes and actions of immigrants from that area of the world who have moved to Sweden.
I am only interested in historical accuracy and a society that doesn't distort that for political or territorial objectives.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by been-there »

.
...And you ignored these questions:
Who do you think benefits from that belief that the Koran is intrinsically 'anti-semitic'?
Cui bono?

Then look at some of the quotes and think it through for yourself. Are they really ALL quotes that show a prejudice against ALL Jews?

Don't you understand yet how this 'anti-semite' smear works and who is using that? And for what end?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: misrepresenting religious scriptures to justify prejudice

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

been-there wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:29 am
Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:17 am
...Read the Koran and how hostile it is to Jews.
Have YOU read the Koran and studied it, Werd?

Read it, study it and you will find it is NOT hostile to all Jews because they are Jews. That is not correct. On the contrary. It promotes respect, tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

[2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and be faithful to your covenant with me, I will fulfill my covenant with you;...

[2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind my favour which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day [Day of Judgement] and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


.. .. .. .. .. ..


I assume from your opening sentence that you have actually read chapter 2 of the Quran , although not necessarily understood it ?

The part of the chapter from which the first 2 verses relate to consist of Allah chastising Jews for objecting to Islam . He is reminding them of events from the past , for example from the time of Moses, when he apparently helped them escape from slavery in Egypt, and is therefore demanding they now show some gratitude and convert to Islam. In no way should these two verses be used to demonstrate the falsehood that Islam and the Quran displays tolerance to non-believers. You have either not read the chapter properly or you have been brainwashed by Islamic apologists. Judging by some of your comments you have made since on this thread , I get a slight sense of unease about your true motives here.

Your failure to understand not only the context of chapter 2, but most probably the whole Quran too, has resulted in you producing a third useless 'example' from this chapter, 2:62. The non-Muslims that Allah is referring to here are those who believed in their own prophets back in the time , ie in the past. Later verses, eg 5:68, 4:152, 4:136, 48:13 (applying widely accepted process of 'Abrogation' ) make it clear that now Muhammed has arrived on the scene, all these non-Muslims from the present day must now accept him as Gods final prophet, and the Quran as Allah's final book . In other words unless they convert to Islam then they will either burn in hell , or will have to pay a tax in order to enter 'paradise', where they can spend the rest of eternity as a servant, or sex slave .

So my friend, if you are under the illusion that the non-Muslims of Muhammed's day would all go to 'paradise' without converting to Islam first, then you are seriously deluded.

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Re: Jews still can't figure out why gays are leaving for the right

Post by Werd »

been-there wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:27 am
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am
It's all right here pages 7-9.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3538&start=60
That obviously isn't the same thing.
I still think your view is distorted by a visceral and irrational islamophobia
Define what this is and prove it.
I STILL think because of that you have become an unwitting agent/pawn of a Zionist agenda.
And you're back on this bullshit again. Okay fine. Come back and prove it.
Werd wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:53 pm
The reason been-there wastes time on words like "from" and "anymore" and "unwitting" (only to lose), is to avoid what I showed on page 3
viewtopic.php?p=139424#p139424
viewtopic.php?p=139433#p139433
viewtopic.php?p=139435#p139435
and page 4
viewtopic.php?p=139663#p139663
Don't run away this time like a coward. Define unwitting agent/pawn/shill, whatever... and then link and quote. You refused to do it last time. Wanna try again?
I KNOW there are problems!! Which is why I would prefer it if you —and the many others like you — understood and tackled the cause
Yep, their own male misogyny that comes from a culture that NURTURES such attitudes. And part of their culture that does that is their religion. This is sprinkled with a hatred of atheism and agnosticism and freethought which would encourage critique of such misogyny.
rather than complaining about and attacking the effect. That way we as a society can prevent this from increasing.
Well instead of wasting time trying to convert these people on EUROPEAN SOIL thus wasting tax dollars and putting women's safety at risk, how about just closing the borders? Not enough? Okay, how about ending wars overseas? I already suggested that like a good liberal. You ignored it. And if we can't do that, how about closing the borders? The white gentile middle class shouldn't have to pay with their lives and their wives, and daughters' vaginas for the sins of the Zionist bankers who create war. I already made this point. You also ignored it.
Werd wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am
And I should believe him because...? Second of all, this is just like Talmud apologetics. What's wrong with taking them as allies or protectors? Why is that bad? He has simply moved the problem back one more step.
You shouldn't believe him because of anything. There is no should. But you could respond to his reasoned argument if you disagree or think its wrong for some reason.
But just to ignore it entirely and repeat what he has just shown makes no logical sense...? That rather shows you don't have a logical, reasoned, considered view, but instead have an irrational, emotional prejudice and hatred that is impervious to reason or argument.
Of you could provide me with reasons I should think he is correct. If there are no reasons, it's just an argument from authority fallacy.
And what was wrong with that at that time was those Jewish tribes were trying to kill Muhammed and destroy his community. Jeez! You clearly didn't even understand that guy's argument. And you appear to have no idea of the history or any interest in the historical context! Do you?
Care to illustrate?
I gave you historical detail about the Jewish wife because there is a historical cultural context which anti-muslims disregard.
Muslims were the victims of Jewish aggressors allegedly. Historical proof is where?
Again you've just ignored all that and continued to post ahistorical lies to further your prejudice and hatred. And this from you, the one who disregarded a reference to tradition because it wasn't backed up by a Koranic verse or hadith? Yet now you will argue a view that contradicts all the haditha? Logically inconsistent.
You think you're so clever. You think it's a contradiction to:

1. not want to use the Koran (or thus any other religious text apparently if YOU want to be consistent) to claim something historically accurate.

and

2. use the koran to see if there are verses in it that are in fact pro female genital mutilation, wife beating, justifying marrying little girls.

You are conflating alleged history with rigid, non-negotiable religious doctrine that MUST be adhered to. When you can stop comparing apples and oranges, I will take you seriously.
I'm not justifying the actions of men in 7thC Arabia, nor the culture that existed then.
Try again:
He had many sex slaves. Taking a Jewish concubine doesn't make him a tolerant or nice man. You may as well claim that because the Israelites spared women and girls in the many wars they won and "kept them for themselves" instead of killing them, they weren't racist. I mean, they can't be bigoted or racist or warlords if they're willing to dignify the poor woman with his penis inside her, right?
I gave you historical detail about the Jewish wife because there is a historical cultural context which anti-muslims disregard...

I'm not justifying the actions of men in 7thC Arabia, nor the culture that existed then.
Oh that's right, you're explaining it instead of justifying it. Okay. I didn't realize that once you wiped out your supposed oppressors, that you were entitled to their women and children. We're right back to where I started.

Muhammad was a polygamist who married Aisha at 6 and fucked her at 9.
Believe that if it floats your boat. But we've been over that. Its ahistorical, islamaphobic misinformation.
Wrong again. Many ex Muslims have said this and it disgusted them and is one of the reasons they left. Those were men. Many WOMEN have also left Islam and claimed to be victims of child marriage and child fucking. I guess the men who did it to them didn't know how to read the Koran and Hadith in their own language. They need guilty white liberals who don't know arabic to understand their Koran for them. Okay. :roll:
I am only interested in historical accuracy and a society that doesn't distort that for political or territorial objectives.
Your only interest is to accuse anyone who wants to close the borders and start shipping Muslims out in a bid to get rid of no-go zones and make streets safer for girls again, of being ignorant of the British-Zionist-American war machine that exists for profit to murder and rape and pillage innocent brown societies while making the white devil rich. I am aware of these factors and no matter how many times I make it clear that we have to attack these underlying causes, you refuse to quote those parts in your post and say something like "good job, looks like you do understand." You walk out of the topic, pretending I didn't have that final revelation and convince yourself that I'm still missing that part of the picture when I'm clearly not.
Example:

viewtopic.php?p=149065#p149065
The main purveyors of Islamophobia
Werd » Wed May 08, 2019 2:05 pm
Werd wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:05 pm
Been-there continues to act foolish.
been-there wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:01 pm
you repeatedly filtered out / ignored / didn't register my points about the hypocrisy of western nations
I have already discussed western hypocrisy and said all American-Israeli led wars need to cease. One can see a few clips of mine from the past showing how anti war, anti imperialist, anti Zionist I actually am, when I put Montgomery2 in his place.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3479

Here are a few examples of words I have said:
The white devil Jesuit-Mason-Zionist-British axis of evil must have all of their white armies and military bases cleansed and removed from all overseas brown countries. PERMANENTLY!

viewtopic.php?p=132668#p132668
And.
we have to ask ourselves, HOW DID IRAN GET THIS BAD? Answer: AMERICAN AND ISRAELI INTERVENTION IN OVERTHROWING THE MORE MODERATE GOVERNMENT BACK IN THE 50'S WHICH LET WOMEN DRIVE, WORK AND DRESS HOW THEY WANTED. THE WHITE DEVIL INTERNATIONAL SATANIC BANKING/MEDIA WAR MACHINE PUSHED ONE MORE SECTION OF BROWN PEOPLE BACK INTO THE DARK AGES. THOSE DIRTY FUCKING OPPRESSORS SHOULD GET OUT AND TAKE THEIR PUPPET OF RADICAL ISLAM DOWN TO HELL WITH THEM!!!

viewtopic.php?p=128280#p128280
And.
Here's an idea. America, Britain and Israel stop funding ISIS. Stop the white devil's war machine.

viewtopic.php?p=114010#p114010
And.
I have a better solution. And it's one that for some fucking reason, liberals refuse to acknowledge despite them being allegedly anti war and anti imperialism. PULL THE WHITE DEVIL'S WAR MACHINE OUT OF THE OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. I already explained it here on page 2 of this current topic. That way, when the bankers are removed and people can for example nationalize their own oil, utilities, etc and bring back prosperity, THEN PEOPLE WON'T WANT TO LEAVE!

viewtopic.php?p=111129#p111129
And.
if Nessie knew history himself, he would know I am partial to the theories of sylvie on youtube about our alien heritage and the fact that the human race was once peaceful and interacted with each other thanks to the teachings and modes of transport from our benevolent teachers. Eventually the parasites infiltrated, took over and caused war, bloodshed and a host of other problems. He would know I am against all kinds of imperialism. He would know I am against the white devil fucking with the brown parts of the world as I have said many times. Nessie should also know I am partial to the theories which state the nazis were very much in part bankrolled by the west and that there was a sect of the evil Illuminati buried within the nazi party. Nessie should also know I have caught shit for the former from other revisionists.

viewtopic.php?p=110828#p110828
And.
Get the white devil worshipping satanic Illuminati new world order puppets OUT of brown and black countries. Burn down all the monsanto plants and give it back everything back to the black and brown peoples of the world. AND STOP GOING TO FUCKING WAR.

viewtopic.php?p=70642#p70642
So since been-there is wrong about me not knowing or caring about immortal Zionist imperialism, and since the MAS never disputed the translation that MEMRI gave, there is nothing left for me to discuss.
In other words, me being aware of the Zionist war machine and its crimes across the world against innocent brown people, means, in the mind of been-there that I am actually in fact NOT aware of the Zionist war machine and its crimes across the world against innocent brown people. Being anti-war, in been-there's mind actually makes me pro war. :lol:

I didn't say that.

No but you implied it with certain language, insinuating I was unaware. Such as this:
I KNOW there are problems!! Which is why I would prefer it if you —and the many others like you — understood and tackled the cause, rather than complaining about and attacking the effect.
Well as that old post from May of mine (THAT YOU IGNORED) clearly shows, I do understand. So you can get off your high horse about that one.

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