The Christchurch mosque shooting

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Turnagain
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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Turnagain »

Hunt, not putting you down but you are sorely ignorant about firearms. Allow me to instruct you. ALL current production semi and full automatic rifles ARE THE SAME. They are ALL gas operated and magazine fed weapons. To find a non-gas operated semi/full automatic rifle you must go back to 1904 and the John Browning designed long recoil action manufactured by Remington as the Model 8. Later, with some cosmetic changes, it was the Model 81 and manufactured until the 1940s. It was chambered for .25 caliber through .35 caliber cartridges. The ONLY difference between a semi auto and a full auto is in the trigger. It has NOTHING to do with how the weapon fires, ejects the casing and reloads another cartridge into the chamber. Remember, although there are variations in calibers fired by semi autos, they are ALL THE SAME as far as function. Semi or full auto is a function of the trigger assembly and has NOTHING to do with how the weapon operates.

There was only one (1) assault rifle ever designed and manufactured and it is now a highly sought after collectors item. That was the Sturmgewehr 44 or the "Assault Rifle" adopted by the German army in 1944. The Stg44. Although the term "assault rifle" became generic for rifles adopted by the world's military, NO country labeled their weapons as "assault rifles." For example, the current US military issue rifle is simply called the "US Rifle". Stamped right on the receiver. Strictly speaking, 99.9% of the people who speak "knowledgeably" about "assault weapons" don't know their arse from their elbow about firearms.

The current NATO 5.56 military round isn't used much for hunting due to it being a little weak suck medium power varmint round that was never intended for even medium sized game such as deer. Yes, with appropriate ammunition the 5.56 is legal for deer hunting in some states and illegal for hunting such game in other states. Even my old .32-40 Marlin that was built in 1895 is a better hunting round than that pissant little .22. Just my opinion but convince me otherwise if you can.

The Soviet 7.62X39 round is the ballistic equivalent of the 1893 .30-30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) cartridge. That is the same cartridge that is fired by the AK-47 (and clones) and the ONLY real difference between the SKS and the AK is the AK has a selective trigger. The SKS has a fixed magazine while the AK has a detachable magazine but that is barely more than a cosmetic difference. Especially since detachable magazines for the SKS are available. Both guns are suitable for deer hunting out to about 250 yards. For comparison, see the .30-30.

Excepting Barrett's .50 BMG (12.7mm) the heaviest caliber available as an autoloader is the .300 Winchester magnum built by Browning. The biggest problem with full power full auto rifles is recoil. If you ever get a chance to shoot one you will immediately understand the problem. That old M-14 that I used to carry in the army was essentially uncontrollable on full auto and it was only a 7.62X51 or .308 Winchester. To be effective as a weapon, a full auto capable rifle MUST be down loaded to acceptable recoil levels. That is why references to the "incredibly deadly semi automatic assault rifles" is incredibly asinine.

At any rate, I hope that I've helped you to understand some of the shibboleths and lies about "assault guns." Now, when you hear someone spouting off about an "assault gun", you will know that he/she is talking out of their arse unless they are talking about that highly desirable collector's piece, the German Stg44.

PS. The last Stg44 that I saw for sale was a rebuild with no accessories and was priced at $33,000.00 USD.


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Huntinger
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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:20 am
Hunt, not putting you down but you are sorely ignorant about firearms. Allow me to instruct you. ALL current production semi and full automatic rifles ARE THE SAME. They are ALL gas operated and magazine fed weapons.
I am well aware of semi autos but the difference is the government of NZ. They wish to ban military style semi autos and assault rifles including magazines which are detachable and can hold more than 5 rounds. These were originally E category weapons in that country and needed a special licence. Ordinary firearms bolt action or semi auto with built in magazine with only 5 rounds is an A category with normal police vetting. It is the look and style that also counts psychologically as it is considered these styles attract the rambo type personalities which perhaps the defendant now is. .22 semi autos are also off the ban and most shotties, though some with detachable magazines or with the capability of being simply modified are not.
As you said modern production semi autos are all the same which is why most will be banned. That said not many will hand them in.


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Turnagain
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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Turnagain »

Yes, the NZ government is trying to ban weapons based on cosmetic appearance rather than function. We had that in the US with the so-called "assault rifle" ban of the Clinton regime. That abortion was allowed to sunset after 10 (long) years. Too many politicians had lost their jobs over their anti 2nd amendment votes and the remainder were afraid to vote for a renewal of that useless act.

I would imagine that gun registration is part of owning a gun in NZ so confiscation poses no problems for the government. Registered guns are confiscated guns. Sooner or later, confiscation follows registration 100% of the time. I hope that you're right about the NZ citizens refusing to turn in their firearms but when the government thugs know who owns which firearms that scenario becomes much more difficult. Oh well, we will no doubt see what happens fairly quickly.

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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Huntinger »

Firearm registration used to be in NZ but proved unwieldy so it is only the user that is licenced. It is estimated there are 2 million unregistered firearms in NZ. Probably half that number in the possession of unlicenced criminals. There are reports of the Government trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. People I know may register say one rifle probably a shotty which is open to inspection of duck shooting season and if they have more will not comply. No one will possibly know. A law which no one will comply is next to useless. Many cops and military own their own semi autos for enjoyment and sure as hell they will not hand them in. The NZ ACT party is against this new law so many Labour and National supporters have said they will join this party and so next years government elections should prove interesting.


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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Scott »

The 1st JFK bullet was fired from the 6th floor of the Texas Bookstore Depository Building and missed wildly. Mr. James Tague standing in the median at the triple overpass downrange, got a minor wound on his cheek from a (probably concrete) fragment. Tague did not immediately realise this but a police officer noticed the blood on his face and checked it out.

The 2nd bullet or "Magic Bullet" was also fired from this same location, and the one which went through Kennedy's upper right back and exited his throat near his necktie, and then keyholed sideways (it never changed direction) and went through Gov. Connally's back, grazing his right wrist, and hit him in the left thigh, getting caught in his clothing. This bullet was found later on a stretcher at the hospital. It was hardly "pristine," but not mushroomed as in a Hollywood movie scenario, and this would be expected with a full-metal-jacketed bullet which is designed to over-penetrate, and in this case to keyhole in flesh or ballistics gelatin. This so-called Magic bullet was the only bullet that was found intact or otherwise.

The 3rd bullet or the "Money Shot" was fired shortly after the second, and from the same location. While Kennedy is clutching at his throat from the 2nd shot, and looking down slightly, he is hit from behind on the top and rear of his skull by the 3rd and last shot. This bullet blows his cranium apart and you can see flaps of skull held on by skin on the right side of his head and he immediately goes limp. The bullet is not recovered and either misses the windshield in front or some fragments of skull debris hit. Some tiny bullet fragments are found in the front seat floor of the car. Contrary to what most people thought that they saw on the televised Zapruder film over a decade later, a frame-by-frame analysis or enhanced video shows that the President's head is NOT blown backwards, which is consistent with the bullet coming from behind as the Warren Commission Report asserted, and not from the front or "Grassy Knoll" area.

The Warren Commission Report was unclear on some details, but there is no evidence of a second shooter or that Oswald did not act alone. My point is that all bullets did ballistically what they should have, and the WC was not wrong in this. We can go back to discussing the JFK assassination on another thread.


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Anyway, Federal courts have just ruled as Unconstitutional the banning of high-capacity magazines in the People's Republic of California. This means that the state laws which banned magazines over ten rounds in capacity will be eliminated, although as of last Friday the ban remains temporarily in place.

President Jared Kushner, I mean Donald Trump, has been a cuck and a disappointment in many ways to his political base that elected him, but one hugely beneficial effect of electing Trump over any Democrat or a RINO (Republican in name only) like Jeb Bush is that the courts are being replaced with more Conservative judges instead of Leftists and minorities.

Anyway, I do not hunt these days, but many hunters do use AR-15 or AR-10 style rifles for hunting, albeit not in 5.56 NATO or .223 Remington caliber, unless we are talking about smaller critters like coyotes and human varmints.

The Ruger Mini-14 (in .223 Remington is one such example) that falls under the "Assault Rifle" rubric, although the older versions look less like a military rifle than most--or at least more like an older military rifle like an M-1 or M-14. Ranchers have used these long before the AR-15 or AK-47 fads came into being.

The Ruger Mini-30 is a 7.62 x 39 mm version, which is my preference, and a very handy deer or antelope gun. For deer hunting you would probably use a smaller capacity magazine, and some states actually require a five-round magazine version when hunting. You use more modern bullet loadings for hunting rather than the military FMJ rounds as well.


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Tricking out a "Good" gun with accessories to make it look like a Hollywood "Bad" gun is not hard to do. The second gun pictured above is also a Ruger Mini-14.

I have a K98 Mauser in 7.92 x 57 mm in mint condition. It was proof-marked by DWM in Berlin in 1942 with a Wehrmacht eagle and in 1944 with a Yugoslavian Communist crest, then packed in cosmoline until sold to me in the 1990s during the Balkan civil war. With five-round stripper clips you can load it almost as fast as with a detachable box magazine. In 2007 it was stolen in a home burglary but the police recovered it after my roommate and I located the burglars, who went to jail.


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Btw, last April or thereabouts one of my Russian SKSs which had also been stolen in that burglary but not recovered, was used in a suicide-by-cop scenario in Phoenix with a transexual who had formerly been in the U.S. Navy and evidently was friends with the tweakers that broke into my apartment. This time the cops did not recover the gun for me--but on the other hand, I don't want to end up on a lawsuit by family members of the burglar or anybody else for having once owned a "Bad" gun by some leap of Liberal illogic.

All of my stolen SKSs were Russian and I like the quality much better than the Chinese versions then available. My Russian SKSs had beautiful wood and a nice folding bayonet attached. They shot ten rounds of 7.62 x39mm which was easy to recharge with ten-round stripper clips. You can also easily use aftermarket detachable 30 round box magazines with a slight modification, similar to an AK-47. These Russian SKSs were on the Federal Curio & Relics list of older guns so were exempt under the old expired Assault Rifle ban rules from the Bush 41 and Clinton eras; otherwise you would have had to remove the flash-suppressor and bayonet or mount/lug. These already did not have a folding stock or a pistol grip. SKS and AK variants are now very common as well as the AR-15 modular platform.

One other point... One often sees AR-15, AR-10 or AK-47 platform rifles in other calibers now. For example, the U.S. military is using the new 6.5 mm Creedmoor as a sniper rifle version to replace the 7.62 NATO / .308 Winchester. Just as the .270 Winchester is basically a 6mm bullet with a .30-06 case, the 6.5 mm Creedmoor is like a 6mm bullet with a .308 case. This is also becoming a very popular hunting round; it has plenty of energy for big game like elk but shoots flatter than .30 caliber slugs generally.

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There is another one called the .300 Blackout that is popular on the same AR-15 or AK-47 platform, which is an improved 7.62 x 39 mm type cartridge with a 4 mm shorter case and intended as a replacement for 5.56 x 45 mm NATO caliber in the current military M4 carbine or assault rifle.


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:)

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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Scott »

I forgot to mention above that Browning is now making a BAR in .338 Winchester Magnum, though the .300 Win. Mag. may be more popular. It is pretty sweet.

:D


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Turnagain
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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Turnagain »

Scott wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:34 pm
I forgot to mention above that Browning is now making a BAR in .338 Winchester Magnum, though the .300 Win, Mag. may be more popular. It is pretty sweet.

:D


[/quote]

Sweet indeed. I didn't realize that Browning was offering the BAR in .338. Very impressive. Yes, I agree that the Soviet SKS is preferable to the Chinese models. I've tried the detachable mag for it but, like you, I prefer to load the fixed mag with stripper clips. I have some 30 round mags for my FN-FAL (L1A1, actually) but have found them to be both heavy and awkward. The standard 20 round is much handier. I also agree that with a little effort and ingenuity a single shot .22 can be made to look like a Hollywood Rambo rifle.

PS. I think that you should check your millimeter to inch conversions.
PPS. Could you imagine that Browning with a 20 round mag and a full auto selector?

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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Huntinger »

My favorite firearm. No good for a charging Moose though.
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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Scott »

I was just using ballpark numbers for some of these. Like 9 x 19mm Parabellum (0.355 inches) is roughly bore equivalent to 0.38 inches or .357 caliber.

In metric, 0.27 inches is 6.86 mm. But .270 Winchester is actually .277 inches according to Wikipedia, so that is 7.04 mm instead of 6 mm as I stated above.

Both .270 Win. and .30-06 Springfield basically use the same 65 mm case (64.5 mm and 63.3 mm, respectively).

A .308 Win. is a .30-06 (0.308 inch) or 7.62 mm bullet in a shortened 51.2 mm case (7.62 x 51 mm NATO). Math says that the .308 inch bore is actually 7.8 mm not 7.62 mm. But In "ballpark" terms, 0.30 caliber is 7.62 mm.

According to Wikipedia, 6.5 mm Creedmoor is actually 6.72 mm, and uses a 48.8 mm case--which does not make it exactly a .308 parent case, I suppose.

I haven't done any loading or anything with this, just find it interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5mm_Creedmoor

In October 2017, U.S. Special Operations Command tested the performance of 7.62×51mm NATO, .260 Remington, and 6.5mm Creedmoor cartridges out of SR-25, M110A1, and Mk 20 sniper rifles. SOCOM determined that 6.5 Creedmoor performed the best, doubling hit probability at 1,000 m (1,094 yd), increasing effective range by nearly half, reducing wind drift by a third and having less recoil than 7.62×51mm NATO rounds [...]

:)

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Re: The Christchurch mosque shooting

Post by Scott »

Some Swiss Lugers in 7.65 mm (not the German 9mm Parabellum version, which are hugely expensive) were on sale recently from https://www.classicfirearms.com/ but are sold out at the moment. I think they were under $1,000 but I don't remember now.

These are the 1906/1929 models and even have a grip safety like the Colt Model 1911. Supplies vary and they sell out quickly when available.


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Btw, I extensively tested the Glock 20 in 10 mm Auto and found it to be quite excellent, although I don't like the double-action-only guns as well as standard single-action or DA/SA automatics. Anyway, this FBI caliber was found to be too heavy for some agents and police officers so they use either 9mm or .40 S&W instead. Basically, .40 S&W is a shortened case version of the 10 mm Auto and works in smaller-framed guns that were originally made for the 9mm Parabellum. There is a Colt Model 1911 version in 10 mm like the .45 but it is not as common as the Glock 20, and does not hold any more rounds than a 1911 in .45 ACP. The Glock 20 holds 15 rounds in the magazine and it barely kicks.


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My understanding is that some Canadian Mounties carry Glock 20s in 10 mm Auto in case they run into a polar bear or something--and it is better than a 9mm, .40 or a .45 from such purposes. I guess they could also carry a revolver in a very big caliber.

I have been to the Freedom Arms shop in Wyoming where the .454 Casull Magnum was made. It had the record as the biggest revolver caliber in the world, but there is now a Smith & Wesson in .50 caliber Magnum or something like that (below).

I'd better stop talking about guns, now. I am getty a little giddy.

:D

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“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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