Apology

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Freya
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Apology

Post by Freya »

I want to apologize to the people who have carried the torch of the truth about the Third Reich and its treatment of the jews.

When i first came on here I may have seemed to defend certain figures Eric Hunt included in his End of the Line essay. I had little true grasp of who some of these people were at the time, and didn't even mean to actually defend all of their beliefs but to elucidate that Eric Hunt's specific attack against them seemed scurrilous. My overall point was that Eric Hunt's sources were biased and wholly lacking credibility. And they were.

But if I offended people in seeming to obliquely defend or attach radical 'trutherism' to the facts about german actions in WWII, I apologize.

A broader question poses itself from this lesson. When those dedicated to bringing the truth to the public consider the individuals willing to go public with their names and efforts, what criteria might be used to establish whether such people can be trusted with the responsibility? I look back and realize that Eric Hunt's defection from revisionism was partially - and justifiably - motivated (it seems to me) by his disgust at how his sacrifices were being wasted by associations with extremist nut jobs, charlatans, and self-serving notoriety-seekers. How tragic that the truth lost one of its more gifted and graceful conveyors. I guess in a way I'm apologizing to Eric himself for all the failures of revisionism to attract more balanced and authentic champions.

What can we do to remedy this problem, if anything? A vicious cycle exists wherein the jews manage to either criminalize or so stigmatize any utterance of the truth of WWII that they leave revisionism with narrow choices as to who might help forge new territory. But then those willing voices are so often fundamentally flawed and without strong moral and emotional centers. So someone compromises, engages such people to 'help' only to wind up repelling the people who held themselves to higher standards.

It's a dreadful problem and I just thought I'd apologize if I seemed disrespectful of german legacy, and misguided. I now realize how precarious the situation is, from 'the other side' that produces the hard core forensics and science.
Last edited by Freya on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:39 am, edited 4 times in total.


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permanent_denial
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Re: Apology

Post by permanent_denial »

I don't see that an apology is necessary for what someone else may or may not say about what you believe to be the truth. Holocaust defenders have done quite equally, and more horrid things than probably any revisionist has in the name of their position on Holocaust history. The JDL tried to have David Cole murdered and Ernst Zundel was firebombed. Not to mention the almost countless revisionists who have gone to prison and served time for their position and/or research on historical events. If Eric Hunt allowed himself to be disheartened by a perceived moral equivalence with people who share his views on a particular subject of discourse, it is attributable to nothing but his own weak will. I can sympathize with the point you are trying to make by posting this, but do not let yourself fall into the trap of ceaseless apology for your own views.
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

Freya
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Re: Apology

Post by Freya »

The problem with that stance is that it fails to assess the damage discrediting associations can do to an advocate's efficacy. Eric Hunt represented a generation and its medium but his peers failed to honor the truth or to better carry their own challenged selves.

The people in the middle, as it were, wouldn't and shouldn't blindly believe the word of some random self-appointed authorities. So when someone like Germar Rudolf chose to allow someone like Sinead McCarthy to narrate the german people's truth it undermined some of the purpose.

This isn't an issue of holding certain views. It's an issue of supporting those brave and competent enough to communicate them to a broad audience. It's about deciding when it's better to not compromise one's standards for the hope of expediency.
Last edited by Freya on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:34 am, edited 6 times in total.

Freya
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Re: Apology

Post by Freya »

Another aspect is, should german-ness be considered a criterion for investing trust in a purported advocate?

It seems to me that non-germans are very challenged to stick to the truth when it comes to some basic aspects of german history and experience.

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Lammers
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Re: Apology

Post by Lammers »

I agree about the whole fundamentally flawed aspect of your original argument. It is so often that people that think the Holocaust didn't happen also think a slough of other things didn't/did happen, without evidence to backup those claims. And their arguments can often be debunked as they are filled with old revisionist arguments, which many of course have already been debunked. It gives a bad reputation to the entire face of "revisionists", and makes those who call themselves "revisionists" not do so anymore and attempt to distance themselves. It hinders with the real issue, which is finding out the truth, and it seems like politics have gotten in the way of that (like they always do!).

I don't understand what you are apologizing about, but I completely understand most of what you are saying.


As for doing anything about it, I don't think much can be done. Some scholarly people have come out and tried to defend what really happened, and then others will parade around those beliefs (sometimes altered), along with a load of other more unreasonable ones, and then it just discredits what the original scholar had to say in the first place. Much of an odd and uneven process, but a process all the same.




Lammers

permanent_denial
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Re: Apology

Post by permanent_denial »

Freya wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am
Another aspect is, should german-ness be considered a criterion for investing trust in a purported advocate?

It seems to me that non-germans are very challenged to stick to the truth when it comes to some basic aspects of german history and experience.
What would ethnicity have to do with seeking the truth? Germans might be more motivated to revise the history of WW2, but what does that have to do with trustworthiness of the particular source or information provided?
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

Lily
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Re: Apology

Post by Lily »

Freya, 'you apologize a bit too much, me thinks.' :roll:

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Nessie
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Re: Apology

Post by Nessie »

Freya wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:50 am
....... I guess in a way I'm apologizing to Eric himself for all the failures of revisionism to attract better, more principled and authentic champions.

What can we do to remedy this problem, if anything? .......
I - cut out the anti-Semitic and racist bias exhibited by many denialists.
2 - investigate the Holocaust using the appropriate historical method and evidencing.
3 - prove millions of people were transited back out of the camps and resettled elsewhere, instead of being gassed.
4 - stop relying on the argument of; if not A, therefore B.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

permanent_denial
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Re: Apology

Post by permanent_denial »

Nessie wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:40 am
I - cut out the anti-Semitic and racist bias exhibited by many denialists.
Cut out the unsubstantiated ad-hominem assertions of "anti-semitism" (most Jews aren't even semites, so it's a ludicrous conflation to begin with), typically leveled in place of a legitimate argument against revisionist logic.
Nessie wrote: 2 - investigate the Holocaust using the appropriate historical method and evidencing.
This is what revisionists do, and we also apply the scientific method and logical deduction to the problems arising from some evidence ascertained by the "historical method."
Nessie wrote: 3 - prove millions of people were transited back out of the camps and resettled elsewhere, instead of being gassed.
This is not a requirement for revision of the Holocaust, and not the only alternative explanation for the events transpired during that era. Your insistence on this explanation being proven is nothing but argument from ignorance.
Nessie wrote: 4 - stop relying on the argument of; if not A, therefore B.
What do you call it when you suggest that the only alternative explanation to absence of definitive proof for "millions of people ... transited back out of the camps and resettled elsewhere" is that those people were "gassed"?

Take your own advice, Nessie. And stop polluting threads with off-topic bullshit. Please.
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

Freya
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:19 am
Contact:

Re: Apology

Post by Freya »

permanent_denial wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:31 am
Freya wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am
Another aspect is, should german-ness be considered a criterion for investing trust in a purported advocate?

It seems to me that non-germans are very challenged to stick to the truth when it comes to some basic aspects of german history and experience.
What would ethnicity have to do with seeking the truth? Germans might be more motivated to revise the history of WW2, but what does that have to do with trustworthiness of the particular source or information provided?
Most informed debate on the Holocaust/hoax seems to pivot on what one makes of the so-called 'missing jews.' Since there is no forensic evidence to support that these numbers of 'unaccounted for' jews were killed in german-run concentration camps. all there is to go on is who seems more believable.

Deciding who is more believable involves evaluating how these two parties interacted before the war. How did the germans and jews interact? Did the jews have a history or pattern of attacking (false accusations are a form of attack, obviously) the german people? Or was it vice versa? Etc. etc.

Concretely, is it more believable that the jews (and other parties) would falsify numbers of 'missing jews' to attack the germans? Or is german exploitation and repression of jews the more plausible scenario?

How did the jews interact in other parts of Europe is also important as explaining the 'missing jews' involves scrutinizing their behavior in the US, Israel and some other countries after the war. Since huge numbers of jews are known to have emigrated to the US, which at the time was officially controlled by english or 'anglo' people, the relationship between jew and 'anglo' or 'WASP' is at issue.

I am both part german and part 'WASP,' and bear the name and likeness (which is very close to that of the germans) of the latter, and live in the US in a particularly jewish-dominated region. I happen to think that my input about jewish postures and attitudes towards these two groups matters more than, say, someone who is french or lithuanian, or irish, etc.

No one can really speak to german experience who isn't, in fact, mostly german.

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