Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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Scott wrote:Netflix still doesn't have Jud Süß available for streaming.
Doesn't fit in this topic thread, as it was a film being made AFTER the 1930's were over.

P.S. And I see a shameful hypocrisy in that this film 'Jus Süß' is considered anathema while so many equally prejudical and hateful (and violently so) films like 'Fury' and 'Inglorious bastards' are still so popular.

P.P.S. All these above mentioned films I haven't seen, so I am only going by descriptions of them that I have read.
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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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been-there wrote:....

P.S. And I see a shameful hypocrisy in that this film 'Jus Süß' is considered anathema while so many equally prejudical and hateful (and violently so) films like 'Fury' and 'Inglorious bastards' are still so popular.

.......
Why do you see such hypocrisy?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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Because IF the HEROES AND VILLIANS of these recent films were portrayed the other way around, there would quite rightly be a huge outcry complaining of unacceptable hate-crime propaganda promoting racist anti-semitism. Such films would never even get sponsorship and bank loans, and if they did would never get past the film censors. They certainly wouldn't get mainstream film distribution and the whole DVD/Bluray release.
But hate-provoking, racist, anti-German films exaggerating and over-simplifying wickedness' of 'Germans' are not only permissable, they are praised and advertised for their entertainment value.

Don't you see ANY hypocrisy there?

Can you imagine a film glorifying — with macabre black-humour — a group of German Wehrmacht soldiers portrayed as heroes we should sympathise with, seeking out Jews at the end of the war and torturing them by carving stars of David on their foreheads and murdering them?

An elderly and rather naive and stupid woman rented Tarantino's violent hate-fest for my kids to watch when they were aged ten and twelve, and in her care. They fortunately didn't like it and therefore didn't watch more than 15 minutes of it. When I later found out and asked her if she knew what the film was actually about and if she thought that was suitable for kids that young she professed ignorance. In this way have stupid, ill-informed people become brain-washed into accepting films glorifying revenge and hate and racist violence as entertainment for young children.
Last edited by been-there on Sat May 02, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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been-there wrote:Because IF the HEROES AND VILLIANS of these recent films were portrayed the other way around, there would quite rightly be a huge outcry complaining of unacceptable hate-crime propaganda promoting racist anti-semitism. Such films would never even get sponsorship and bank loans, and if they did would never get past the film censors.
But hate-provoking, racist, anti-German films exaggerating and over-simplifying wickedness' of 'Germans' are not only permissable, they are praised and advertised for their entertainment value.

Don't you see ANY hypocrisy there?

Can you imagine a film glorifying — with macabre black-humour — a group of German Wehrmacht soldiers seeking out Jews at the end of the war and torturing them by carving stars of David on their foreheads and murdering them?
If Jud Suss were played the other way around, a German would blackmail a Jew and then dirty Germans would move it. Fury is about a tank crew fighting against the odds, a theme which has been used in many films. Inglourious basterds is a war adventure film of which again there are many. Neither show the Allied troops in a particularly favourable light. It is clear they can be brutal, cruel and unforgiving.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently largely ig

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Dresden prior to Churchill and Harris' Allied-vandalism and mass-murder by fire.
In the 1930's it was Germany’s seventh largest city. 100 miles southeast of Berlin, Dresden was known as the ‘Florence of the Elbe’, such was its architectural splendour, its large collections of art and quaint timbered buildings.

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Dresden.
All deliberately destroyed in a holocaust of unimaginable murderous cruelty and vandalism. No Hollywood tear-jerkers, reams of newsprint, or fictionalised 'documentaries' to that example of man's inhumanity to others for being of the 'wrong' race. I wonder why? Hmmm?
The Allied commanders studied aerial photographs of German cities and specifically targeted areas of heavy residential populations. His aim, said Harris, was to make the ‘rubble bounce’ not just in Dresden but in every German city.
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Beautiful Dresden from the Carola Bridge
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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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The beauty of Dresden before it was very controversially bombed is not ignored. There are many acceptances of that from Wikipedia, to the media to academic studies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... war_debate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... epths.html

"Bloxham believes that the bombing of Dresden on the night of February 13, 1945, killing some 25,000 people, and wrecking one of the greatest baroque towns in Europe, was a war crime, and that, had he been put on trial for it, Churchill, who authorised the raid, would have had, by any of the criteria used for defining these matters in international law, to be condemned as a war criminal."

You have been caught lying again.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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Living in Hitler's Germany — a letter by Hans Schmidt


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVnEV_CC7w8
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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (the NSDAP that is now known derogatively as the Nazi party) is currently regarded as one of the most infamous political systems in the history of the earth. This infamy has come about due to the pre-war AND post-war atrocity propaganda used by the Allies that falsely accused it alone of severe acts of cruelty and inhuman behaviour during WW2.
The facts instead are that the Nazi government implemented a number of policies which were not only for the good of their people but also for the entire world of the future; many of these policies are now implemented by other governments around our planet.
This list shows the foresight, intelligence, and ethically advanced values of that generation of the German people under the guidance and values of Hitler and the NSDAP. These examples of verifiable fact show that the truth is still able to shine through all the deceitful victor propaganda.
This list is an homage to those men and women living in Nazi Germany who made changes for good even though the severely corrupt and wicked behaviour of the Allies, the so called 'good-guys' has so succesfully covered that up for the last seven decades. Listing these obviously does not in any way seek to minimise war crimes committed during that internecine conflict known as WW2.
Some of the many things that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Worker's party got right

10
Humane treatment of animals and the banning of vivisection
As many know, Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian who was concerned not only for the welfare of his own people but also of the humane treatment of animals within Germany. Nazi Germany was therefore the first country to ban vivisection in the world, enacting a total ban in April 1933. The measure to ban vivisection was a huge concern and was put forth to the Reichstag as early as 1927.

Hermann Göring, who was established as the Prime Minister of Prussia, had this to say:
“An absolute and permanent ban on vivisection is not only a necessary law to protect animals and to show sympathy with their pain, but it is also a law for humanity itself…. I have therefore announced the immediate prohibition of vivisection and have made the practice a punishable offense in Prussia. Until such time as punishment is pronounced the culprit shall be lodged in a concentration camp.”

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The sign in the window says “Vivisection forbidden”.

High ranking Nazis such as Hermann Goring, Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler were very concerned about animal protection, particularly pertaining as to how animals were to be butchered humanely. Of special concern was the extremely savage Jewish kosher method of cruelly throat-sltting and bleeding to death of animals. Films depicting the barbarity of kosher slaughter techniques were made to inform people of this uneccesarily cruel practice and kosher slaughter was banned.

Most current laws regarding humane treatment of animals in Germany, and indeed the world, are derived from the laws put forth by the Nazi Party. Although regretably kosher cruel slaughter still continues. A sign that Nazi Germany was MORE humane then in this than we are today.
9
Wildlife conservation
When the Nazis came to power in 1933, intelligent and humane concerns for the ecology and wildlife native to Germany were enacted. In 1934, a national hunting law was passed to regulate how many animals could be killed per year, and to establish proper ‘hunting seasons’. These hunting laws have now been applied in most western countries.This law was known as Das Reichsjagdgesetz, the Reich Hunting Law. The Reichstag also footed the bill for education on animal conservation at Primary, Secondary and College levels. Additionally, in 1935, another law was passed, the Reichsnaturschutzgesetz (Reich Nature Protection Act). This law placed several native species on a protection list including the wolf and Eurasian lynx. Additions were added later concerning afforestation and the humane slaughter of fish. Without this law it is likely some species would have completely disappeared from Germany’s forests.
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8
Anti-tobacco education
It is recorded that Adolf Hitler was so opposed to smoking in his later life that he couldn’t stand someone lighting up in the same room, and often felt obligated to object to it as a waste of money. Again, far ahead of his time, he correctly understood the capitalist advertising manipulation of an unsuspecting public with an unhealthy product and so he began the most effective anti-tobacco campaigns at that time. While during the 1930s and 1940s, other anti-tobacco movements failed fantastically in other countries, it was taken seriously in Nazi Germany. The Nazis banned smoking in restaurants and public transportation systems, citing public health, and severely regulated the advertising of smoking and cigarettes. There was also a high tobacco tax, and the supplies of cigarettes to the Wehrmacht were rationed. Several health organizations in Nazi Germany even began claiming that smoking heightened the risks of miscarriages by pregnant women, now a commonly known fact. The statistics of annual cigarette consumption per capita as of 1940 had Germany at only 749, while Americans smoked over 3,000.
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“He does not devour it, it devours him!”

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7
Innovations in cinematography
The Nazis were very interested in both film and music as means of mass education, propaganda and as essential pillars of popular culture. The first known magnetic tape recording was of a speech made by Hitler, and Joseph Goebbels pushed for more sophisticated and advanced methods of filming. For example, the film ‘Triumph of the Will’, the sequel to the former PR film ‘Triumph of the Faith’, is regarded as one of the most important pieces of cinematographic history. The director, Leini Riefenstahl (pictured below) used an astounding thirty film cameras and over one hundred technicians to produce the two hour film. Since Triumph of the Will had an unlimited budget, the latest technologies were used. Cranes and track-rail filming were used, techniques still used today to make a smooth ‘traveling’ effect. Although these groundbreaking films are currently considered 'dangerous' and not shown in their entirety on mainstream media, yet the techniques developed in them are seen regularly in the latest great Hollywood blockbusters.

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6
Contributions to fashion design
The Nazi style of uniform was as bold as their style of government. Thick-soled leather boots, slouch hats, cowhide coats, and peak hats were some of the staples in Nazi fashion, as well as muted color tones often in grey tan and black. The SS Panzer military organisation struck fear into the hearts of their adversaries, with black forage caps and leather coats which were later adopted by heavy-metal rock musicians. Doc Martens closely resemble the jump boots that many Schutzstaffel officers wore. Look around at any rock, industrial or otherwise ‘edgy’ popgroup and you see small traces of Nazi fashion sense.
Additionally, the founder of Adidas, Adolf Dassler (whose nickname was Adi), was a NSDAP member. He produced shoes for the Wehrmacht during the war, as well was providing American and Nazi athletes with his footwear during the Berlin Olympics. This created national acclaim when Jesse Owens won the sprinting event at the Berlin Olympics wearing Adolf Dassler’s shoes. Adidas is now a multinational company, supplying athletes all over the world with a supply of footwear and sports accessories.
His brother, Rudolf Dassler, was the more ardent Nazi of the two brothers and went on to found another proficient sports company…Puma.
Oh – and Hugo Boss was a Nazi who, from 1934, was an official supplier of uniforms to the SA, SS, Hitler Youth, NSKK and other Party organizations (as evidenced in the advertisement below).

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Rock star Freddie Mercury and unknown woman wearing Nazi chic

5
Medical advances
Through the use of experiments on volunteer prisoners condemned for exection they discovered information that is still used by doctors and medical scientists today. For example, extensive studies and monitoring of hypothermia, at Dachau concentration camp, by subjecting desth-row pridoners to experiments which if they survived their death sentence would be revoked. The subjects were immersed in vats of freezing water or left out in the winter cold, all the while monitoring changes in body temperature, heart rate, muscle responses and urine. These tests were initially performed on volunteer soldiers, but the Nazis were not satisfied that they had all the information they could get and began to test on concentration camp prisoners convicted of crimes. They attempted to formulate methods to bring the bodies back to a safe temperature, including the “Rapid Active Rewarming” technique that seemed to be the most effective method of revival – and is used today in the west. This research could potentially fill a gap in other researchers studying hypothermia.

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4
Origination of modern rocketry
The man who invented rockets as we know them today, Wernher Von Braun, was a member of the Nazi party and commissioned Schutzstaffel Officer. He aided both Germany and the United States in the use of rockets during and after WW2, He later became a naturalized U.S. Citizen. Although he pioneered many areas, including the installation of liquid-fueled rockets in aircraft and orbit to ground missiles, he is best known for his achievements in NASA. His grestest achievement there was perhaps the development of the Saturn V booster rocket, that helped man to finally reach the moon, in July 1969. Von Braun officially opened the gate to space travel through his innovative inventions as well as creating one of the most destructive methods of war known to mankind.

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Wernher von Braun circa 1962

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Wernher von Braun in 1943 on the far right

3
Autobahns
While not originally conceived by him, Hitler was an enthusiastic supporter of the idea and pushed for the largest network of roads to be built across Germany. Established as the first freeway system in the world, the autobahn was a revolutionary feat of engineering that forever changed the way humans travel. Thousands of countries have emulated the system Hitler put in place, including America and Britain. It is single handedly the largest network of roadways in the world, with roads stretching all across the country, even to other countries such as Austria.The construction of this roadway wasn’t only revolutionary in itself, it provided over 100,000 workers with jobs necessary for the economic recovery efforts. It was a goal of the Nazi party to try and bring the country into a sense of unity through the roadway system, and for the most part it was successful. Aircraft was tested on the long, smooth, straight sections of road and Grand Prix racing teams are known to practice on them.

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Hitler shoveling earth at the ceremonial inauguration of Reichsautobahn construction in Frankfurt

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2
The Volkswagen
Literally meaning “People’s Car”, this vehicle was presented as a car that every German citizen could afford to buy. Its creation derived from the design and proposals that adolf Hitler commissioned the car designer Ferdinand Porsche to realise. The car was a huge success (it was made available to citizens of the Third Reich through a savings scheme at 990 Reichsmark, about the price of a small motorcycle), but toward the end of the war resources were low and public availability declined. However this has not stopped it from remaining one of the most popular vehicles in the world, known for its key features proposed by Hitler of comfort, reliability, economic and easy repair, stylish design and ease of use.
http://thevolkyland.com/site/military5.html

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Adolf's sketch in 1933 for the VW given to car-designer F. Porsche

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Das Auto für das Volk - the car for the people

1
Social welfare programmes
When Hitler came to power in 1933 the level of poverty, starvation and resulting suffering and suicide was extremely high due to the effects of the unjust and unethical reparations programme decided at Versaille after WW1.
One of Hitler's first pledges was that no-one would go hungry the next Christmas under the NSDAP. Hitler's Germany thus developed one of the largest public welfare programs in history, based on the philosophy that all Germans should share an equal standard of living. One of the most famous of these was the Winter Relief (Winterhilfswerk) programme intitated by Hitler, where high ranking Nazis and common citizens both took to the streets to collect charity for the unfortunate. This was not only an extremely intelligent and humane use of party resources, but also set an example which generated genine good public feeling toward those in need. Posters urged people to donate rather than give directly to beggars. Joseph Goebbels, himself a high ranking Nazi in control of Radio, Television and Propaganda, often participated in these events. Modern schemes of welfare are modeled on this German NSDAP system.

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A postage stamp which generated money for the winterhilfswerk aid programme

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Collection boxes which generated money for the winterhilfswerk aid programme

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No-one should starve. No-one should freeze

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Ref: edited version of Rigato
Last edited by been-there on Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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In 1936 a school group of English boys from south London went on a hike in the Black Forest in Germany.
Due to the stupidity, racist prejudice and refusal too heed warnings of their teacher the teenage boys were led into a storm on a mountain, some dressed in sandals and shorts.
Despite the heroic rescue attempts of German villagers, five boys died. Eighty years on, mainstream media — allthough positively describing the local German people involved — still attempt to demonise Hitler's and the NSDAP's role with an emotive and false headline.
"Fatal hike that became a Nazi propaganda coup"

The article itself also attempts to imply sinister intent behind Hitler youth assistance and official NSDAP messages of sympathy.
The heroic attempts of the locals to save the boys gets minimised in this distortion and attempt to still deceive.

The admitted racist prejudice of the guilty teacher against Germans being the cause of the deaths would have provided a better and more honest headline. But such is the deceit that we are STILL constantly subjected to. :|

Alternative headline: Teacher's “open dislike” of Germans leads to death of 5 boys
...a group of boys from the Strand school in Brixton and Kenneth Keast, with their 27-year-old master, left Freiburg for the opening hike of their 10-day Easter trekking tour in the southern Black Forest. It was the morning of 17 April 1936, as they set off for the village of Todtnauberg, over 15 miles away, across the summit of the Schauinsland mountain. By the time they emerged from a wood about three hours later, snow was falling steadily...

When they had set out from their youth hostel that morning, Keast had been warned that the snow would make his planned route hazardous. Even without snow, the locals considered it a challenge.
The weather map for 17 April that hung in the hostel gave clear indication that conditions were going to turn. The previous day, the tourist office had warned Keast about the approaching storm, to which his response was: “The English are used to sudden changes in the weather.”
With snow now falling heavily, and having lost the path and circled back on themselves, they were soon behind schedule. Keast stopped at an inn to ask for directions. The landlady advised him that the paths and signposts would be buried in snow, at which the schoolmaster shrugged and said they would “brush it off”.

By now they were forced to kick their way through the snow. On an open hillside, they met two woodcutters heading home because they could not continue their work. They advised Keast to take a path to the left of the valley. At around 3.15pm, they passed the local postman, Otto Steiert, who urgently warned Keast against continuing the ascent. Steiert offered to help the party return to Freiburg, or to bring them to the shelter of the miners’ hostel, where they would have found beds and food. Keast declined.

He had not yet started to panic, but the slippery, slow-going conditions prompted the teacher to stop and question each boy as to how he felt. Some complained of cold. But Keast decided that to go back would be more perilous than continuing towards the nearby village of Hofsgrund, where he hoped to find shelter in a hotel or peasant’s house. Unfortunately, the map Keast had received from the School Travel Service in London, which had organised the trip, had a scale of 1:100,000, meaning major routes were shown, but not the gradients or the small pathways. This meant he failed to realise that between them and the village rose the steepest and most dramatic ridge of the Schauinsland. As a result the boys, now weary, cold and wet, took a gruelling route up the Kappler Wand, a 600-metre, 70% gradient face.

...Schweizer summoned a party of rescuers, hammering on the window of the Gasthaus zum Hof, the village inn where he had seen that lanterns were burning and people were playing cards. They put on skis and headed out towards the road. By now the trekking group was strewn across a wide stretch of terrain. Some of those who had collapsed were almost completely covered in snow. Some of the boys were making their way down the hill, and Schweizer stumbled across two lying motionless in the snow. Hermann Lorenz, the grocer, brought one unconscious boy into his shop, while a farmer, Reinhold Gutmann, carried the other on his back to a nearby farmhouse. The men had planned to use their skis like stretchers and lie the exhausted boys on them, but the snow proved too deep and powdery. Instead they fetched a sledge on which to drag them down. Stanley Lyons, who had collapsed about 10 yards from the inn, was probably already dead, but the rescuers tried to revive him.

Schweizer, along with four other local farmers, headed further up the mountain, carrying one carbide lamp between them. They found the schoolmaster Keast next to two other unconscious boys. In German, Keast told them the size of the group. After climbing alone up the mountain for a full 45 minutes, Hubert Wissler, one of the first to have heeded the cries for help, found three boys suffering from exposure. The rescue effort lasted until well after 11pm. The rescuers’ clothes were soaked from the snow, their bodies drenched in sweat.

A [German] doctor holidaying nearby was summoned to attend to the most serious cases. ...They were wrapped in blankets and given food and coffee before being put to bed. In spite of these efforts, by the end of the evening, four of the boys were dead: Francis Bourdillon, 12, Peter Ellercamp, 13, Lyons, 14, and Eaton, who was two months away from his 15th birthday. Arthur Roberts and Roy Witham, both 14, were still dangerously ill.
Roberts and Witham were taken to the university hospital in Freiburg the next day, but Witham died without regaining consciousness. The bodies of the dead boys were placed in the cellar of the Hofsgrund village hall, and later transported to Freiburg and laid in the chapel of rest at the main cemetery. The survivors were taken by sledge to a nearby village, where the road was clear enough for them to travel by omnibus to Freiburg, where they had medical checks.

...Baldur von Schirach, the leader of the Hitler Youth movement, telegraphed Britain’s ambassador to Germany, informing him that a wreath from the “German Youth” would be placed on each of the boys’ coffins to signal their “heartfelt and deep sympathy”, and that a sentinel of Hitler Youth from the region would stand guard over them until transport to their homeland could be arranged.

Newspapers in Germany and Britain carried photographs on their front pages of uniformed Freiburg Hitler Youth members keeping a vigil over the coffins at the city’s main cemetery, against a backdrop of swastikas alongside union jacks. Thousands of Freiburgers came to pay their respects, in the presence of Keast, seven of the older boys, and British diplomats. Friedhelm Kemper, the local Hitler Youth leader, gave a speech in which he talked of the “will of understanding and peace” between the German and English “comrades”. Fifteen of the younger boys had, meanwhile, been left in the care of older Hitler Youth members who entertained them with a game of football and took them for a ride on an omnibus.

The Monday was Hitler’s birthday, offering another opportunity for a procession. Local dignitaries paraded to the main railway station. A guard of honour, hundreds-strong, was formed by the various units of the Hitler Youth, its female equivalent, the Union of German Girls, as well as hundreds of Freiburg schoolchildren, who lined the route and watched as the coffins were loaded on to a train. The surviving boys who clambered on board two separate trains were accompanied by 20 members of the Hitler Youth as it made its way through Germany and up to the border at Aachen.

By now the Hitler Youth were being credited with helping in the rescue. Die Volksjugend, the Baden branch of the Hitler Youth’s own newspaper, praised its members for their participation.

... many ordinary Germans, thousands of whom lined the 330-mile stretch via Frankfurt to the Belgian border to pay their respects. Many threw sweets to the English boys, who leaned out of the train windows to marvel at the spectacle. Several of their parents wrote personal letters to Hitler, thanking him for the grand send-off, and for the German state railways’ waiving of the £60 fee each family should have been charged for the conveyance of their sons’ coffins.

Keast [the English teacher responsible for the avoidable disaster] remained in Germany for several more days as a guest of the Hitler Youth. The Daily Sketch ran a photograph of him in an open-top car, dressed in a cloth cap and scarf, “out for a drive in Freiburg” with the local leader of the Hitler Youth and a representative of the Gestapo, the Nazi state police. Keast addressed his thanks to the Hofsgrunder in a letter, published in a German newspaper, stating: “We can never forget the superhuman efforts of the people of Hofsgrund who did everything to bring us to safety … All this has brought nearer to us the country which previously had been estranged.”

Eaton, a parent of one of the dead boys, flew to Cologne and took the train to Freiburg to trace the route the boys had taken, accompanied by a solicitor and an interpreter. He interviewed the rescuers, and spoke to other witnesses who told him they had repeatedly warned the party to turn back. He found the 1:100,000 map Keast had used – which was by now in the keeping of Freiburg’s public prosecutor.

He claimed it was Keast’s “open dislike” of Germans that had probably led him to feel it would have been “degrading for him to accept a German’s word of advice”.

[A memorial called] the Engländerdenkmal — a towering gateway made up of two huge upright stones of Black Forest granite inscribed with the names of the boys, and a third stone linking them on top and decked with the Nazi eagle and a swastika, was finally completed in the summer of 1938. It stood on the mountainside, 800m above the village of Hofsgrund.
The memorial was due to be inaugurated on 12 October, in the presence of a member of the British royal family, the head of the Scout movement, Sir Robert Baden-Powell, and the British ambassador, in a ceremony which once again was supposed to affirm the German-British friendship. The inscription concluded: “The youth of Adolf Hitler honours the memory of these English sporting comrades with this memorial.”

Although Keast admitted the weather had been poor when the party set out, and told of how he had stopped to ask people the way, he made no mention whatsoever of the several warnings they had given him.

On 27 April, 10 days after the disaster, Robert Smallbones, the British consulate general in Frankfurt, wrote to the Foreign Office to say that certain misgivings about Keast’s conduct on the tour deserved to be raised. The disaster, he said, would “probably have been avoided” had Keast been in touch in advance with the Hitler Youth who, he had been assured, would have been happy to accompany the group and could have helped lead them safely out of the blizzard. He recommended that any future British school trips to the Black Forest should reach out to the movement. Smallbones also condemned the inadequate way the boys had been dressed.

Yet Smallbones’s misgivings got short shrift from the Foreign Office. A letter from Sir Geoffrey Allchin, the head of its consular department, to his superiors, outlined the extreme German sensitivities over the case. A French radio station had already erroneously accused the German authorities of being “to blame for the disaster” and the German government, he said, was keen to ensure no official or citizen was held in any way culpable. In a decision that effectively put the lid on any further investigation, Allchin added that Anthony Eden, the foreign minister – who had already written to the citizens of Hofsgrund and Freiburg to express the “gratitude of the people of London” – was of the opinion that “in these circumstances … no great importance, if any, should be attached to the present allegations against Mr Keast”.

And with that, for the Foreign Office at least, apart from a brief exchange over the costs and details of a memorial, the case was effectively closed.

On the morning of the 80th anniversary of the Black Forest tragedy, on 17 April 2016, in the Gasthaus zum Hof, where the boys had spent the night after their rescue, a group of villagers sat around discussing the minutiae of the events of 1936.

For years, said Michael Lorenz, an industrial chemist, and grandson of one of the brothers involved in the rescue operation, villagers had mulled over what happened. “To this day we’re still amazed that those children were sent out so lightly clad. Nobody here sends their kids outside without anything on their heads in April,” he said. Mariele Loy, the village poet laureate, who has retraced the boys’ route herself many times, was flummoxed as to how Keast could have relied on such an inadequate map.
Hainmüller has spent more than a decade researching the disaster, popularly referred to locally as the Engländer Unglück (Englishmen’s misadventure). A warm and cheerful 68-year-old, he was researching a book on the Hitler Youth movement in Freiburg when he stumbled across the monument, prompting him to ask questions about its origins. “I was struck by the fact there is only one version of this story that has been kept alive over the decades,” he said. “And that is the legend of unavoidable death in a freak blizzard.”
He was very moved by the Hofsgrunders’ actions, and the fact they were largely missing from the history of the rescue.

Chris Clothier from Manchester, the 66-year-old daughter of [one of the boys] Ken Osborne, thanked the villagers, without whom, she said, her father would not have survived. “My father told us little of his experience on the mountain,” she told them, her voice breaking. “But he often told us of the kindness of the Hofsgrunder and the help they gave without thought for their own safety.”

One of the boys, Stanley C Few, went on to serve in the army, although he informed his superiors as soon as he joined up that he could not be expected to fight the Germans, as they had saved his life. He was sent to fight in Asia instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ganda-coup
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Re: Beautiful aspects of 1930's Germany currently ignored

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JT: When did your father meet Adolf Hitler?
HH: That would have been very early in 1919 or 1920. This was long before Hitler was famous. Hitler was a nothing when my father met him, just some local political oddball.

JT: And your father liked him right away?
HH: I’ll put it this way: he was impressed by him. Everyone was impressed with Hitler when they first met him. Just about anyone was and my father wasn’t any different from others. I defy anyone who met Adolf Hitler to say he wasn’t impressive upon first acquaintance.

JT: How old were you when you first remember Hitler?
HH: Oh, I was a very little. I was a little boy, maybe 5 years old when I first remember Hitler. He was a wonderful play companion for me, he was a special visitor, always. When he would show up in our house, I smiled because he was such fun and not like any other adult I had ever known. He could put himself at the level of a child and that’s enchanting to a boy.

JT: Do you have strong memories of Hitler when you were a boy?
HH: Yes. I was 4 or 5 years old when father first started bringing him around, as I said. I remember him well. He would bring me Pralines, rubber bands, small toy cars. He was a wonderful visitor for me and not just because of the chocolates. One thing I can mention in passing is that Hitler also could play the piano. He wasn’t a very good pianist, but he could pick out tunes and play a little.

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Hitler, Geli and child

JT: How close were you to Hitler as you got older?
HH: As close as a person probably could be. I was born in 1916, I was 16 years old when he came to power. We still used Du (German intimate form of “you”) with each other at that time, later he dropped that. My sister had been very close to Hitler, I feel my father was his best friend. Also my mother adored him.

JT: Your mother sadly passed away when you were a boy?
HH: I was only 11, Henny was 13, almost 14.

JT: Did your mother know or like Hitler?
HH: Both! She adored him, she always talked him up, she was his greatest supporter. He was very stricken when she died. He spent a great deal of time at our home after my mother left us. In fact I would admit to you that having Hitler around the house after my mother’s passing helped me. He said I was a “brave little comrade” for not crying at my mother’s funeral. He was really very saddened by her death, he had liked her very much.

JT: How would you describe Hitler then, when you were a boy?
HH: He was unlike anybody else I ever knew. Then or since. He was an extraordinary man, he had a photographic memory, he was a great imitator of people and he loved children. It was fun when he visited because he wasn’t run of the mill, he was just very, very different and more interesting than other people.

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JT: How much time did you spend in your father’s photography shop?
HH: Actually this should be plural. Father had several photography shops in Munich at that time. His main shop was on the Schellingstrasse. The NSDAP party HQ was in the rear of our shop there. He also had additional shops by the train station, one on the Amalienstrasse and one by the Sendlingertor. I was in all of them, but most often the main one, on Schellingstrasse.

JT: This is the shop where Eva Braun first met Hitler?
HH: Yes, you’re right, that’s the shop.

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Eva in the Schellingstrasse shop in 1930

JT: Did you know Eva Braun yourself?
HH: I knew her very well, in fact I knew her before Hitler ever laid eyes on her.

JT: But you would have been very young then?
HH: I didn’t think of myself as such, I was 13 when I first met her, I had been to boarding school, had experienced my first kiss, wore long pants and felt myself to be quite the man. I was at the age when a boy develops his first crush. I think I’d say Eva Braun was my first crush. Yes, definitely she was.

Below is a photo of Hoffmann’s two children, Henny and Heinie, beside Eva Braun in 1931 or 1932.
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JT: What was she like then?
HH: This was all before the Hitler period. Eva was then 16 or 17 years old, just a young girl, but to me, she was a grown lady, a real prize. I thought she was the most special lady I’d ever met. I loved her as only an adolescent boy can do. I think I was in the shop so much mostly to talk to Eva or at least catch a glimpse of her.

JT: How was it that you found yourself in the shop in the first place?
HH: I was something of an orphan, you see. My mother had just recently passed on, my sister was in the shop frequently and I had no one at home except our Hungarian maid and the cook, who came only at night. After school I would spend some homes in my father’s shop so I wouldn’t be home alone. This was all after I had come back from boarding school. I was so lonely I begged to come home and father allowed it.

JT: And you met Eva in this way, in your father’s shop on the Schellingstrasse?
HH: Yes, I knew all the girls in the shop. Eva was the prettiest and nicest to me. She was really my first love, you never forget your first crush I don’t think.

JT: What memories do you have of Hitler meeting Eva?
HH: I have none. I was not there at that historic moment, or at least it became historic. But it was only historic when looking backwards. Nobody took any interest in that meeting, Hitler was in the shop a lot, he was nice to everyone. Women always fell for him, this was just his lot in life. I always envied that in him, but he just took all that for granted.

JT: Your sister wrote me that Eva fell in love with Hitler immediately.
HH: Eva was just a girl, I don’t think she fell in love with him at all upon first sight, she had to get to know him. Hitler was very much older than her, you know. She may have thought he was interesting, but he didn’t pay her a lot of mind in the early days, he really did not. He was travelling all the time in 1929 or 1930, those days were the height of constant elections and gaining/losing seats in the Reichstag.

JT: Do you remember the first time you saw the two of them together?
HH: I really don’t remember the exact occasion. Their relationship was just something that happened slowly and over the course of months or years. For instance, Eva started appearing at our house in the evenings. I noticed quickly that she was only there on evenings when Hitler was there. They didn’t arrive together and they didn’t depart together, but the time in our house was mostly spent together.

JT: You mean they would absent themselves from the party?
HH: I don’t mean that, I meant that Hitler was paired off with Eva when they’d be our house. If we sat down for a meal, she would be on his left. If we sat about and chatted, she would be on his left. He spent his time talking to her mostly. But they never left together, I never saw them in the same car. But it was apparent to most people that they were a couple. Of course Hitler chatted and circulated with everyone at first, but then he’d settle down on a sofa with Eva, or in fine weather, they would go outside and sit on the grass.

JT: Was this before Geli Raubal’s death or after?
HH: Both. Eva was Hitler’s friend before Geli died. I am sure of that, in fact I know it. Hitler knew Eva for almost two years before Geli’s death.

The photo below shows Heinie on the far left with Hitler’s half niece Geli Raubal. Hermann Esser also appears, these are all 1931).
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JT: Did you know Geli?
HH: Yes I did and in some respects I knew her better than I ever knew Eva later on. Hitler was obsessed with Geli, there’s no two ways about it. With Geli, there was no secrecy involved with his relationship, he was very open and possessive of her. I liked Geli but she was very moody and could be temperamental. She was a carefree spirit and all that, but I always preferred Eva.

JT: Can you tell me why?
HH: For one thing, Eva was far prettier and had a much better shape. I was 14 or 15 years old then, after all. I had a one track mind. I never saw what Hitler saw in Geli. She was a nice girl and loved to laugh, but she was not what one would call a looker. Her moods were really quite something as well.

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JT: How did Hitler behave towards Eva Braun in these early days?
HH: Hitler always behaved correctly with women, but also very carefully. He always attempted to act as if Eva Braun was just an ordinary girl that had come along for the evening because my father had invited her. But like I said, even I as a boy quickly noticed Eva never came to the house unless Hitler was there. And nearly every time Hitler was there, she was there. It didn’t matter if it was daytime or night time, they would be together in our home.

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JT: Did they go out on dates?
HH: In this early period before Hitler seized power, yes they did go out. In fact I have a funny story about this. More than once, I myself went out on dates with them. We went to the opera twice, all three of us, and quite a number of times I was there when they went out to dinner or lunch.

Heinie Hoffmann is standing behind or between Hitler and Eva in in the following two photos, he accompanied them to the opera, these are both January, 1932 photos
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JT: I don’t understand something. Why were you going on dates with two adults?
HH: Because this was very early on in the history of Hitler and Eva. I’m referring to the time before Geli was dead, and to the period shortly after her death. Hitler was not supposed to be dating anyone but Geli when she was alive and he was not supposed to be dating anyone when he was supposed to be in mourning. Hitler didn’t take Eva out alone for a long time, he would have a group of people that he trusted to come along, as something of a cover for his real intentions.

JT: And what were his ‘real intentions?’
HH: Well, you know. I mean we weren’t there at the opera or the movie theater as chaperones. We were there to conceal the fact that Hitler had a woman he liked and to whom he was courting. He was representing himself to the electorate as this celibate bachelor who loved Germany more than anything else. I got to go on some wonderful excursions and I got to be around Eva, the woman I found so wonderful.

JT: Did Hitler ever talk to you about Eva?
HH: Only in the early days, the period we’re discussing right now. He knew I had a crush on Eva and it amused him very much. One day at my parents home, Eva was there spending the evening with us all. She got up from the sofa and walked past us. Hitler nudged me in the side and said, “Heinie, you have excellent taste in women!” He said it in a deliberately exaggerated manner, as if to rib me. I didn’t know whether to smile, so I just awkwardly shuffled my feet.

JT: Was that Hitler’s way of telling you to leave Eva alone?
HH: I don’t think it was that at all, I was no rival to Adolf Hitler, let’s put it like that. He was on the brink of power and an experienced 40 or 41 year old man then. I was a callow fellow of 15 or 16. Eva never regarded me as anything but a pesky nuisance, I think. She liked me, but I was a little boy to her, she had eyes only for Hitler.

JT: How did Hitler behave towards Eva when you would go out with them; you mentioned the opera and eating places.
HH: He always acted in public as if Eva was a distant friend of his. He never paid her any more attention than anyone else at the table or in the opera seats. It was a role they both played. Now in private, at our home, you could see an informal closeness between them, they didn’t pretend as much, but they still arrived and left at different times, even when we knew they would be meeting up together later than night. There was still that element to their relationship, this forced distance in front of others.

JT: Did you know Eva was in love with Hitler, could you see that?
HH: She tried to hide it, but I could see it and I don’t think it’s just because I knew. She was very much in love with that man, there was no hiding it. Women had that look a lot when Hitler was about.

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JT: How much time did you spend with Hitler after he became Chancellor?
HH: It depends on Hitler’s schedule and my schooling at that time. I saw him whenever he was in Munich, and that was remarkably often. He never liked Berlin and always was looking for an excuse to get out of there. I spent time also on the Obersalzberg, both before he was Führer and after.

JT: Can you tell me what you liked about Hitler?
HH: I always liked Hitler. And I make no excuse for that, I never have. He would have been impossible to dislike if you were a child, as I was. I knew him as a boy, and I knew him when I was a man and I never had occasion to not like him. He could be difficult sometimes, which I’m sure doesn’t surprise you. He was very stubborn, willful and things had to go his way. I suppose these are all traits a dictator would tend to have.

JT: Was he arrogant or conceited?
HH: Now those are two words I wouldn’t ever use to describe Hitler. He was personally very modest, that was not an act. He lived modestly, he didn’t put on airs. He lived well, of course, after he became Führer. But his apartment in Munich, for instance, have you ever been there? It was in a nice area but it was not the apartment you’d expect from a world leader. It was quite modest. He didn’t require a lot for himself, he purposefully tried to live a life of self-denial. Not in all things, but quite a few.

JT: When did you see Hitler the happiest?
HH: [He thinks for a long time before answering]
He liked to picnic, he was always happy then. He loved going on picnics and in the summer we would go most every day. I almost always went along since school was not in session and I came home from boarding every summer. I always thought Hitler seemed happiest with Geli. He really came out of his shell with her, he was not as inhibited as he usually was. Those picnics were the most fun I ever had with Hitler.

(The two photos below show Heinrich Hoffmann. Jr. in a dark suit behind Hitler, summer 1931 on a picnic. Geli Raubal in the white dress and necklace).
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JT: Did you ever go on a picnic with Hitler and Eva Braun?
HH: Yes, not as often as with Geli, but definitely I was part of the group that went on picnics with Eva and Hitler. They didn’t go alone, we all went in one big group and we would go in two cars, Eva in one and Hitler in the other. The rest of the party would always include my father, Schaub, Brückner, my stepmother, sometimes Eva’s friend Herta Ostermeyer, Schreck and then me. My sister also was sometimes part of the group. The faces never changed, the same people always went. I would have been shocked had someone new appeared.

JT: Do you think Hitler loved Geli Raubal?
HH: Without any doubt he did. Now the particulars of their relationship, what went on behind closed doors, if anything, I don’t know. People write now that she was miserable with Hitler, but I didn’t see that. She chased him, he was happy around her, but she was the pursuer, as far as I could see. I’m sure I’m right about that, even after all these years.

JT: But you admit Hitler was two-timing Geli with Eva Braun, going to the opera and picnics with her?
HH: I didn’t say he was doing that, those are your words. I never said Hitler was cheating on Geli with Eva Braun. I said they casually dated, they went on excursions together and had lunches in restaurants. I don’t think they had the chance to be alone very often then. I think it was all innocent until Geli killed herself.

JT: Do you think Hitler and Geli were lovers?
HH: I don’t know. I don’t think anybody knows, or if they did, they would be long dead. I just don’t know.

JT: Would you say Hitler loved Eva Braun?
HH: Not in the same way or with the same intensity as Geli. That’s my view, I could have been wrong, but I don’t think I am. Hitler was always quite tender with Eva, they were quiet together a lot of the time, happy just to be together, it seemed. He wasn’t as passionate I don’t think towards Eva as he was towards Geli. Maybe that was because he was older, or because he was a world leader by then. He depended on Eva, he trusted her, he adored her, but I don’t think he was madly in love with her.

JT: Did you ever see Hitler angry?
HH: Certainly I saw Hitler angry, I knew him for so many years. He could fly off the handle on any type of whim. I have seen him angry because the table wasn’t set properly, or because the cars were late picking him up. I’ve seen him angry at subordinates. He and Röhm had plenty of arguments, very loud ones. Hitler was even-tempered, but sure I saw him angry sometimes.

JT: On the other side of the spectrum, did you ever see Hitler cry?
HH: Cry? Yes, I have seen this. He cried after Geli died, my father was with him out at the Tegernsee for a few days. He heard him crying for hours behind a closed and locked door, he told me that story many times later on. Then several months later, Esser mentioned Geli at the table when we were eating on the Obersalzberg. I happened to glance at Hitler and he had tears streaming down his face. I also saw him cry after his driver Schreck died.

JT: So he was a man who could show emotion in front of others?
HH: He could be uninhibited in these things. Just look at him giving speeches, he throws his entire body and soul into orating, that’s being very exposed and open. He had that side to him, and never forget he was an Austrian!

JT: You know in almost every interview I have conducted for this book, the Hitler crowd always mentions that. What exactly do you mean when you say, “but he was Austrian?
HH: I mean he had the Austrian charm. He bowed from the waist, he kissed ladies hands, he paid women all sorts of compliments, he noticed things about their hair or jewelry or something about them. He was altogether much, much more charming than your average German lout. Hitler was more refined, more schooled in manners. Austrians have all that down pat.

JT: That explains this better for me, thank you. When was the last time you saw Hitler?
HH: In 1944, at the Berghof. I went to Gretl Braun’s wedding. Actually I felt ill that day and didn’t attend the ceremony, but I was there with the intention of going. When I recovered, I saw Hitler and it was our last meeting. He had aged so dramatically that it stunned me. It literally stunned me.

JT: Explain how he looked?
HH: Like death itself. Whether we’d lost the war or not, Hitler was through by 1944, that much was self evident to me.

John Toland’s papers are now in the Library of Congress and this interview with Heinrich Hoffmann, Jr. is in box 49 of the manuscript division of the Toland Papers.
Last edited by been-there on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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