A fairly correct rendering of the arguments made by AS and me, except that the indications I listed in support of DOK 239's authenticity and accuracy under viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2916&start=10#p107163 are not mentioned.been-there wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:19 pmAs Roberto has declined to give a concise summary of his argument, here is my understanding of the debate.
As I understand it, Roberto has been arguing that there exist two documents which he believes were issued by different authorities and in different contexts that confirm mass graves of Jews in the Vilnius area, and that these are therefore a part of the proof that there really was a genocidal plan to exterminate all Jews in Axis-controlled Europe by the NSDAP: the so called 'final solution of the Jewish question' otherwise known as 'THE Holocaust'.
These two documents are a report attributed to Karl Jäger, and a letter, filed as DOK 239.
1. The Jäger report. In 1963 Soviet authorities released a documents purporting to be an NSDAP report detailing the movement and mass murder of Jews. According to this document, 133,346 'Jews' were killed by Germans and Lithuanians under Jäger's orders.
2. DOK 239. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, a letter to Horst Wullf from a District Medical Officer of Trakai named Dr. Paskevicius is claimed to have been discovered in the LCVA (the Lithuanian State Archive) detailing the location of mass graves of some of these massacred Jews. The letter is signed by Dr. Paskevicius, is dated 8th July 1942, and claims to have been sent to the Regional Commissioner of Vilnius-Country, Horst Wulff, who received it on 12th July 1942.
Aryan Scholar and Wurm regard both these documents as possibly soviet forgeries and argue that the alleged mass-graves described in the letter have never been confirmed.
Aryan Scholar questions the authenticity and accuracy of DOK 239 based on the absence of two important related documents and the inconsistent description of The Health Department at the Ministry of Internal Affairs. He challenged anyone to prove the authenticity and accuracy of the document. He considers this letter does not confirm a systematic plan to exterminate Jews by shooting. Roberto accepted the challenge. AS has pointed out that both sender and recipient of the letter DOK 239 make no mention of the cause of death of the bodies in the mass graves.
He has replied in another thread (for some reason) to Roberto's summary as follows:I never followed nor understood why mention of carcases is relevant.Aryan Scholar wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:27 pmYou still did not understand Horst Wulff was not informed in 1942 by Dr. Paškevičius about size and location of mass graves of corpses of Jews who were shot, even if assuming the mass graves had corpses of Jews who were shot. The statement by Hoppe and Glass is proven false... So even if you show DOK 239 is authentic with the authoritative evidence you requested, you still have to prove the mass graves described in DOK 239 had corpses of Jews who were shot.
Have I missed anything or got anything wrong?
. . . . .
Horst Wulff (born October 28th 1907, died April or May 1945) was a German National Socialist who was employed as a regional commissioner in Vilnius during the Second World War in German-occupied Lithuania.
He joined the NSDAP and SA in September 1926. From 1932 to 1934 he worked in the Paris hotel industry and was active in an organisational capacity for the NSDAP group in Paris.
After the war began with the Soviet Union he became regional commissioner in Vilnius in August 1941. In November 1941 he moved from the SA to the SS. In February 1943 he is alleged to have ordered the shooting of forty Lithuanian peasants in Kaunas. He is also alleged to have participated in anti-Jewish measures in his area of control. E.g. in March 1943 he is accused of ordering 3,000 Jews to be sent to the Vilnius ghetto from East Lithuanian cities. Wulff died during the Battle of Berlin in April 1945.
. . .
Karl Jäger (20th September 1888 – 22nd June 1959) was a Swiss-born mid-ranking official in the SS of the NSDAP and Einsatzkommando leader.
During World War I he joined the German army and he received the Iron Cross 1st Class and other awards for bravery and meritorious acts. He joined the NSDAP in 1923 and founded his local party chapter in Walkirch, Switzerland. He joined the SS in 1932.
From July 1941 until September 1943 Jäger served as commander of the SD Einsatzkommando 3a, a sub-unit of Einsatzgruppe A under Franz Walter Stahlecker, in Kaunas. Under Jäger's command, the Einsatzkommando, together with the help of Lithuanians, are accused of executing Jewish men, women and children by firing squad. His unit is accused of perpetrating a war atrocity called the Ninth Fort massacres of November 1941. Near the end of 1943, Jäger was appointed commander of the SD in Reichenberg in the Sudetenland, back in Germany.
At the end of the war Karl Jäger assumed a false identity, and worked as a farm hand until March 1959 when he was arrested and charged with war crimes. He is yet another one who it is is alleged committed suicide by hanging himself in prison in Hohenasperg in June 1959 while awaiting trial.
. . .
As to the "inconsistent description of The Health Department at the Ministry of Internal Affairs" (the designation seems to be from 1939 and is therefore not necessarily relevant, as the designation under German occupation in 1941 may have been another), I did some googling and under https://portal.ehri-project.eu/institut ... vas&page=4 found a reference to the following items held by the Lietuvos Centrinis Valstybės Archyvas:
"Vyriausioji sveikatos valdyba", the Lithuanian term for "Hauptgesundheitsverwaltung", is translated by http://www.etranslator.ro/lithuanian-en ... slator.php as "The Central Board of Health".Vyriausioji sveikatos valdyba
Central Health Administration
Lietuvos Centrinis Valstybės Archyvas
3 subfonds and 2481 fi...
Updated 2 years ago
Documents of administration, lists of staff members (doctors and nurses), list of Jewish property and equipment, information about infectious diseases, documents about healthcare, correspondence. There are various administrative documents about personnel and staff, lists of personnel and doctors, lists of Jewish doctors, statistics about diseases, documents concerning the County doctor’s observation of mass killing site in Švenčionys where 5000 Jews were murdered on 14 September 1942.
So one of Aryan Scholar's arguments for suspecting forgery seems to have been refuted.
Anyway, I'll wait for what the LCVA will tell tell me about the "Vyriausioji sveikatos valdyba" and Dr. Paškevičius. The "County doctor's observation" mentioned in the above quote, by the way, shows that Paškevičius wasn't the only one physician concerned with public health problems that might result from Jewish mass graves.
Paškevičius is also mentioned under https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnik%C5 ... usto_vieta:
Translation by http://www.etranslator.ro/lithuanian-en ... slator.php:1941 m. lapkričio 8 d. Trakų apskrities viršininkas davė raštišką nurodymą Trakų miesto burmistrui iki lapkričio 13 d. masines kapavietes aptverti 120 cm tvora, „kad gyvuliai ir žmonės neprieitų ir tų vietų neklampotų, neardytų bei nežalotų” bei užpilti chloro kalkėmis. 1942 m. liepos 8 d. Trakų apskrities gydytojas V. Paškevičius pranešė apie kapaviečių būklę Vilniaus apygardos komisarui apie kapų būklę. Pranešime nurodytos Trakų apskrities masinės kapavietės, esančios Trakų, Semeliškių ir Žiežmarių valsčiuose. 1941 m. bei 1942 m. pavasarį masinės kapavietės užpiltos chloro kalkėmis ir aptvertos.
Another Lithuanian source available online that mentions Paškevičius is http://www.voruta.lt/holokaustas-lietuv ... pskrityje/:1941. 8 November. Trakai county governor has given a written instruction to Trakai burgomaster until 13 November. mass graves fence 120 cm fence, the animals and the people failed to come to these places and neklampotų, do not disrupt and causing damage to "pour chlorine and lime. 1942. 8 July. Trakai district physician V. Paškevičius reported graves in the state of the Vilnius Regional Commissioner about the state of the graves. The report referred to in Trakai district mass graves located in Trakai, Semeliškių and Žiežmarių districts. 1941. and 1942. Spring mass graves brewed chlorine lime, enclosed.  
Translation by http://www.etranslator.ro/lithuanian-en ... slator.php:Išžudžius žydus, okupacinė valdžia susirūpino masinių kapaviečių sanitarine būkle ir apsauga. Trakų apskrities viršininkas 1941 m. lapkričio 8 d. raštu davė nurodymus Trakų miesto burmistrui bei Žiežmarių, Semeliškių ir Eišiškių valsčių viršaičiams iki 1941 m. lapkričio 13 d. masinių žudynių vietas aptverti tvora, “kad gyvuliai ir žmonės neprieitų ir tų vietų neklampotų, neardytų bei nežalotų”. Kapavietės turėjo būti užpiltos chloro kalkėmis, o tvorų aukštis 120 cm. Susirašinėjimas dėl žydų kapaviečių vyko ir 1942 m. 1942 m. liepos 8 d. Trakų apskrities gydytojas V. Paškevičius informavo Vilniaus apygardos komisarą apie kapų būklę. Jis nurodė, kad Trakų apskrityje masinės kapavietės yra Trakų, Semeliškių ir Žiežmarių valsčiuose. 1941 m. šie kapai buvo apibarstyti chloro kalkėmis ir užpilti žemėmis. 1942 m. pavasarį masinės kapavietės vėl buvo atkastos, užpiltos chlorkalkėmis ir aptvertos,
Which killed Jews, the occupying power concerned about mass graves sanitary condition and protection. Trakai county governor in 1941. 8 November. writing gave instructions Trakai burgomaster and Žiežmarių, Semeliškių Eišiškių and district heads to 1941. 13 November. massacre in the fence, the animals and the people and failed to come to these places neklampotų, and do not disrupt from causing damage. Tomb had to be brewed with lime chlorine and fence height of 120 cm. Correspondence on Jewish graves took place in 1942. 1942. 8 July. Trakai district physician V. Paškevičius informed the Vilnius Regional Commissioner about the state of the graves. He pointed out that the county Trakai Trakai is a mass grave, and Semeliškių Žiežmarių districts. 1941. These graves were sprinkled chlorine with lime and covered with soil. 1942. spring mass grave was excavated again, brewed chlorkalkėmis and fenced,