Treblinka

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Treblinka

Post by been-there » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:03 pm

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Treblinka
The first time we find a reference to the village of Treblinka in current-day Poland is in a document from 1436, where Nobilis Albertus de Treblina, or Noble Albert of Treblinka, is mentioned.

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For centuries after, Treblinka was home to a number of noble families, among them those of Świejkowie, Suchodolscy and Wężowie.

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Despite the prescence of nobility, it was always a small village: according to the population records of 1745, there were only around 30 adults living there and by 1827 this had risen to just 130.

THE COMING OF RAILWAY LINES
Railways came to the area in the late 1880's. In 1887, a railway line was built from Małkinia Junction to Siedlce, with a station in Treblinka Village. A side track from Małkinia Junction was created to a local gravel quarry.
Nearbye Małkinia Górna Junction is where the main line between Warsaw and Białystok crosses with this secondary-importance line between Ostrołęka and Siedlce.

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Treblinka gravel quarry and connecting spur line railway

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Treblinka village Railway station in 1915

MALKINIA GORNA AND THE BUG RIVER
Treblinka and the important railway Junction at Malkinia are situated by the Bug River which, in summer is little more than a creek, being shallow enough in some places to enable people wade across it. Due to Treblinka being in the vicinity of Malkinia, it became a focus for much fighting in both WW1 and the later 1919 Polish-Russian war, known locally as the Bolshevik war. The area even became the target of German Zeppelin and Fliegertruppen bombing raids during WW1.

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The Mercury newspaper. 17th August 1915

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The Queenslander newspaper. 21st August 1915

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Malkinia August 20th 1920. Regiments of the 29th Infantry brigades cross the Bug in pursuit of the Bolsheviks

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Article from the Concordia Sentinel newspaper in Louisiana reporting the (Malkin) Malkinia fighting.

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. . . . . .

After the Polish-German war of 1939, the River Bug formed the border between the German occupied General Government of Poland and the zone occupied by the Russians until June 1941.

INFAMY AND ATROCITY PROPAGANDA
This insignicant village of Treblinka was to become infamous, when in the latter half of the 1940's the victorious Allies of WW2 included it in a war-time concocted, atrocity-propaganda story, basing it upon the irrefutable existence of a work camp and an Aktion Reinhard camp in the near vicinity of the Treblinka village (4 kilometres south).

In 1941 the Germans had began to transport people to a penal labour camp they had built at the Treblinka gravel quarry which they opened on the 1st September.
Later a second concentration camp was established closer to the Malkinia Junction as a part of programme called Aktion Reinhard. Work begun in April 1941 to establish the second camp and it became operational on the 23rd of July 1942. They called this camp Treblinka 2, renaming the first gravel-pit labour camp as Treblinka 1.
Despite the name the Germans gave the camps, Treblinka Village is not the closest to them. The closest place to the camps is the equally tiny hamlet of Poniatowa.

T1
Treblinka 1 was established by Ludwig Fischer and opened on 1 September 1941 as a penal labour camp to imprison Poles who had broken German rules, such as trading without permission, sabotage committed against the Germans by the Polish underground forces, etc. Prisoners worked at the nearby gravel quarry or at the irrigation area.
The camp itself was in the form of a quadrangle and was enclosed by a high fence, at the corners of which were watch-towers. Treblinka 1 was divided into two parts, one for the German, Austrian and Ukrainian staff and the other for prisoners. The camp commandant for the entire time Treblinka I was in operation was Theodor van Eupen, and under him was Franz Schwarz.
The liquidation of Treblinka 1 occurred on 23rd July 1944.

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It is claimed that during its operation the T1 labour camp had accomodated in total about 20,000 inmates.
Post-war atrocity claims are still being repeated (e.g. on Wikipedia) that half of these 20,000 were killed, and that the kommandants had revelled daily in acts of great cruelty and sadism. But these claims have been eclipsed in the public imagination by the much larger claims of cruelty and mass-murder alleged to have occurred at T2.

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Poster publically notifying in December 1941 — in both German and Polish — the opening of Treblinka 1 as a punishment labour camp

. . . . .

T2
Treblinka 2 began to be built in April 1941 and was operational from the 23rd July 1942 until the 19th October 1943. A period of fifteen months. Despite Treblinka's long six century history from 1436, it was for this brief period of fifteen months that the name Treblinka is now known around the world.
T2 was a camp built as part of Aktion Reinhard. What that operation entailed is still a subject of controversy. A controversy that until the 1980's was not dared to be debated publically. Ernst Zündel changed that.
The enforced consensus narrative is that Aktion Reinhard camps were designed and built “factories of death”. In other words, they were camps whose sole purpose was the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews in gas chambers. It is still claimed today that between 5,000 and 17,000 people a day were killed here at T2 during that time.

Initial 'eye witness' accounts in official Polish reports and Russian post-war ‘investigations’ claimed the mass-murder method was either by vacuum-pump suffocation, or by steam, or by diesel engine exhaust gas, all in “hermetically sealed” chambers. After some decades, a consensus appears to have been silently and tacitly agreed to ignore all testimonies except those that mention the method of killing used petrol engine exhaust. The eye-witness accounts, Nuremburg trial affidavits and official investigations mentioning steam chambers, vacuum pumps and other even more bizarre murder methods are ignored now. Impractical and problematic ‘eye witness' detail of “hermetically sealed” chambers is also quietly avoided in current histories.

Initially it was claimed 3 million people were exterminated here at T2. Yad Vashem later claimed the total of killings here was 850,000. The Dusseldorf trials in 1965 accepted an even lower total of deaths of 700,000. Though how any of these figures were arrived at has never been made clear.

The first camp commandant was Irmfrid Eberl. He was replaced by Franz Stangl. Stangl was kommandant of T2 for almost one year, after whom Kurt Franz took over.
The staff of the concentration camp comprised around 25 to 40 German and Austrian soldiers and about 90 to 150 Ukrainian guards. A mass break-out of around 600 Jewish and Polish inmates occurred on 2nd August 1943. Of these about 200 evaded recapture. Shortly after this uprising the camp was closed. The last transportation of Jews to Treblinka was sent from Białystok on 19th August 1943, and the camp ceased to operate on 19th October of that year.

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Discharge papers Sept. 1943 for a Polish worker at Treblinka 2 ‘Zwangsarbeitslager’ (Forced-labour camp)

. . . . . .

THE WIDER PICTURE
OK. Let's put this in its bigger context...

1. During World War 2 there was a 'war' going on.

2. People with ethnic origins related to enemy nations were regarded as potentially hostile internal threats by ALL the participant warring nations and were incarcerated in 'concentration camps' and 'labour camps'. That requires rounding up, these ethnically undesirables, getting them to railways, moving them on trains. ALL the warring nations did this to those of their own citizens with the perceived 'wrong' ethnic background. Moving masses of people around on trains doesn't equate with genocide yet.
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Polish Jews leaving ghettos and boarding trains bound for concentration camps

3. Germany originally just made people regarded as 'potentially hostile Jewish fifth-columnists' wear an identifying yellow star, but later decided to effect a 'final solution' that involved forcing them to emigrate and/or incarcerating them for the duration of the war with the intent of using those able for work, and after victory making them all leave. I.e. exile. E.g. Madagascar was one plan that didn't work out.

4. Rounding up and then moving trainloads of people was just one part of that operation. Other aspects were a.) preventing spread of disease/preventing dangerous epidemics, b.) acquiring needed labour and c.) wealth appropriation. In Canada, America and Britain the same level of cases and risks of Typhus disease among the perceived hostile aliens weren't there. Typhus carriers amongst Polish and Eastern Jews was a pre-existing problem BEFORE WW2.

5. Remember point 1 that there was a war going on. A 'total war', declared by Britain but pushed by international jewry, and after their defeat at Dunkirk with Germany's genuine peace offers rejected before they had even been received or considered. A 'total war' now declared by Britain to be executed with no mercy, with German civilians deliberately targeted and with Germany threatened with annihilation. An escalated 'total war' with people claiming to represent international Jewry working to get America involved against Germany again. Remember that one of international Jewry's representatives Chaim Weizmann bragged that they (Jews) had succesfully done exactly that in WW1. Recall also that most people in Germany — especially Hitler, the wehrmacht top brass and the NSDAP leadership — were bitterly aware of how they had been forced into penury, starvation and widespread national economic and social depression after the unjustly punitive conclusion of WW1. I.e. Germans were perceived to be fighting for their very existence.

6. Remember point 4. moving truckloads/trainloads of people was just one part of that 'endlösung' operation. Other aspects were a.) preventing spread of disease/preventing dangerous epidemics, b.) acquiring needed labour and c.) wealth appropriation.

7. A 'transit camp' is where people ENTER for a time BEFORE BEING TRANSITED TO SOMEWHERE ELSE. If they just stop at a railway station temporarily that is NOT a 'camp'. That's a transit stop. Malkinia could have been such a 'transit stop'. But no-one has ever claimed this. So that is PRECISELY WHY a 'camp' would have been required close to Malkinia.

8. Treblinka village and its Treblinka railway station were tiny.

9. Treblinka 2 not only could and did function as a transit 'point', but it was a fenced 'camp', with buildings, barracks, a bakery, a zoo, a steam facility for disinfecting clothes, with large 'shower' rooms, etc., etc. and with a permanent staff of operators.

10. Treblinka 2 was operated by 25 to 40 German SS and police officials plus a police auxiliary guard unit of between 90 and 150 men.

11. The two Treblinka camps apparently served numerous functions which the holocaust narrative confuses in order to maintain only ONE 'extermination narrative':
T2 augmented and fed operators of the gravel quarry camp (T1),
T1 became a 're-education camp' for troublemakers from other labour camps,
T2 functioned as a transit camp/looting camp/worker sorting camp*/extermination camp*, (*take your pick).
USHMM wrote:The camp [T1] also served the SS and police authorities as a so-called Labour Education Camp for non-Jewish Poles whom the Germans perceived to have violated labour discipline.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005193
. . . .

THE T2 CAMP FUNCTION: AKTION REINHARD?
If we were to fairly appraise the possibility of T2 being anything other than an extermination camp, we need to consider what else could have been its function?
If it were operated as a 'transit camp', and/or Aktion Reinhard 'wealth appropriation/collection/sorting camp, what would it require?

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for preventing spread of disease, it would need shower facilities and clothes disinfectation facilities
(T2 had showers/parasite* killing chambers and steam rooms).

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for selecting suitable prison-labour camp workers, and transiting them to prison-labour camps, it would need a fence to prevent escape (T2 had a fence) large showering facilites for disease control (T2 had *shower rooms/parasite* killing chambers), food making facilities (T2 had a bakery), clean camp clothes storage, and barracks for inmates and camp operators (T2 had barracks, permant camp workers and guards).

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for wealth appropriation/theft/looting then you need somewhere to store and sort the wealth, people to sort it and document it, and guards to protect it. (T2 had such facilities and guards.)

• If T2 was a 'transit camp'/looting camp prior to exiling people via train into the Russian zone, it would need to be situated where the railway guage changes. (T2 was exactly at such a 'changing' point: close by Malkinia and associated with the pre-existing camp serving T1.)

SUMMARY
If the German war effort had required a place in this vicinity to transport Jews from Warsaw by rail; relieve them of their wealth; select people for labour and transit the rest to other camps or across the Bug river toward Russian territory; then a camp would be needed to be built here with the above mentioned facilities. Malkinia Railway junction, Treblinka village, and Treblinka Village Railway station didn't have ANY of these facilities.

The only question remains regarding which type of perceived parasites* were being killed in those steam* chambers?
. . . . . .

Alternatively, if we were to fairly appraise the possibility of T2 being nothing other than a designed and planned extermination camp and wealth appropriation centre, what different facilities would it be required to have other than the above?

It would require:

• a technically efficient method for gassing thousands every day that was more reliable than the alleged system using exhaust from captured soviet diesel/petrol engines.

• a planned system for disposing of hundreds of thousands of bodies leaving no trace, in a way that didn't draw unwelcome attention from surrounding villagers due to smell of decay.

• and an allocated area to dispose of hundreds of thousands of corpses without polluting the water table and thus the well water that served the camp.

T2 didn't have any of these.

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View of the camp showing the well on the right which would have been polluted had hundreds of thousands of bodies really been buried in the small camp, as was — and still is — claimed.

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The Kurt Franz Map of Treblinka. In his handwriting Franz indicates names of SS men where they served in the camp. Nothing there about gas chambers, burial pits, collosal funeral pyres.

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Kurt Franz
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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:32 pm

This claim has been made in the OP;
• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for preventing spread of disease, it would need shower facilities and clothes disinfectation facilities
(T2 had showers/parasite* killing chambers and steam rooms).
Please show the evidence for the existence of showers, parasite killing chambers and steam rooms that were used to shower and disinfect the people sent to TII.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:22 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:32 pm
This claim has been made in the OP;
• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for preventing spread of disease, it would need shower facilities and clothes disinfectation facilities
(T2 had showers/parasite* killing chambers and steam rooms).
Please show the evidence for the existence of showers, parasite killing chambers and steam rooms that were used to shower and disinfect the people sent to TII.
Numerous 'eye witnesses' described being transited through Treblinka and given showers, clean clothes, soup and bread before being transited on.

Numerous witness testimony referred to steam chambers.

Here are just a few examples from many.

Mieczysáaw Chodzko reported that a public health commission brought disinfection equipment and mobile ovens for heating water for the showers to Treblinka in November 1942.
The reference is in a Polish report: Wydawnictwo Centralnej ydowskiej Komisji Historycznej from Dokumenty i Materiaáy, note 40, p. 176.
Dokumenty i Materiaáy is a collection of documents which included the eighteen-page Polish report about Treblinka made in 1946, edited by N. Blumental, a member of the Jewish Central Historical Commission.

Two filmed 'eye witnesses' are included in the following videos describing SHOWERS.
One at the very beginning here @ 0:11 to 0:30.



One at the very end here @ 12:11.



One transited Jewish person describes showers and steam rooms in this video starting at 11:50 to the end:

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they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:33 am

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DECONSTRUCTING THE BOGUS NARRATIVE:

TREBLINKA 2 WAS A “SECRET” CAMP??!


The compulsory WW2 ‘holocaust’ narrative that may not be questioned or intelligently analysed maintains that about 1.5 kms north from the Treblinka 1 penal labour camp was a secret extermination camp” named Treblinka 2 where allegedly 700,000 to 900,000 people were secretly exterminated and buried over a period of one year and three months, then disinterred and “secretly” cremated on open pyres.

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Killing centres, however, provided both expediency and secrecy,...
...Himmler designed the killing centres exclusively as places of secret and instant death. Today there is widespread misunderstanding and ignorance about the four killing centers, which were all on isolated occupied Polish territory.
...Sometime in 1941 Hitler gave the verbal order for the Final Solution, treating it as a secret of the highest order. Hitler and Himmler created Operation Reinhard -- the camouflage term for the Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka program...
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/aktion ... -cntr.html
The 'holocaust' narrative contains many quite obvious contradictions which the mass of people never consider, so conditioned have they been into accepting the narrative uncritically and unintelligently.

In this instance it is the relevance of the obvious and undisputed fact that Treblinka 1 was NOT a secret camp. On the contrary it is accepted that it was the opposite, being widely publicised as a deterrent to saboteurs, black-marketeers, etc.
The Dienstag 2 December 1941 directive announcing the establishment of the "Treblinka Labour Camp" was published in both Polish and German and widely distributed.

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As can be seen from the aerial photographs, the Treblinka T-2 Aktion Reinhard camp was on the same rail spur as the Treblinka T-1 labour camp.
All prisoners and their guards being taken by train to and from the publicly known Penal labour T-1 camp would pass directly by the supposedly top secret T-2 "extermination" camp.

As a functioning gravel quarry, rail cars arriving and leaving with the excavated sand and gravel would have daily passed by the supposed T-2 "extermination" camp.

So as Treblinka-1 was the opposite of a “secret" camp, how could any secrecy of Treblinka-2 be maintained?

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Aerial photograph taken Sept. 2, 1944.

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Recent 'Google Earth' satellite photo

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Aerial photograph of T2 taken November 1944.
Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka "death camp" site -- and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives in Washington, DC -- cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story that it was a mass extermination center.

Discovered in 1989,... These photographs indicate that the remarkably small camp was not isolated, or even particularly well guarded. (They clearly show that fields where Polish farmers planted and cultivated crops were directly adjacent to the camp perimeter.)

Moreover, the camp's burial area quite obviously appears too small to contain the hundreds of thousands of bodies supposedly buried there. (Casting doubt on the widely accepted story of hundreds of thousands of Treblinka victims, these photos suggest instead that only those deportees who died during the sometimes protracted rail journey to the camp were buried there.)
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html
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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:14 am

been-there wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:22 pm
.....
Two filmed 'eye witnesses' are included in the following videos describing SHOWERS.
One at the very beginning here @ 0:11 to 0:30.


The first eye witness, at about 11 seconds, is quoted as saying "I was in the steam room" and "Then we went into a shower room". It is captioned September 17 1943, Minsk to Treblinka to Budzyn and attributed to Henry Robinson (Heinz Rosenberg, born September 15, 1921 Gottingen, Germany). His full statement is here;

https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findin ... trs_en.pdf

Page 21 has the full details of him describing arriving at Treblinka from Minsk;
And we saw a gate and it said Treblinka. And it said “Arbeit Mach Frei, the work will make you free.”
That is the first and only time I have seen any witness describe that as the entrance to the camp at TII. All of the rest describe arriving at a railway station. He goes on to say about the steam room and shower;
And I, my friend Herman Hoffman was an electrician, he said to me, if they ask for locksmith next time, get out too. Locksmith? Yes. I knew about it, I was in the steam room. I got out too. We took Otto Menkin with us and Herman and about hundred people went out. And they said are there any gardeners? Yes. Everybody went as a gardener. The gardeners we never saw again. But we were pushed on the side and we went to a barrack and we had to undress. We had still not prison uniforms but we had old clothes marked with ___. So we had to undress. The little thing we had, here, here, here. Nothing. We were searched from top to bottom. Then we went into a shower room. We didn’t know what it was.
And we got out and then we came to a room where they gave us each one a new uniform and wooden shoes or something like this and then they said "you will stay here and you will be transported to Deshov."
There is more doubt Robertson is at TII because in September 1943 the camp was being closed down. The uprising where hundreds had escaped was on the 2nd August, a month earlier. According to this list of transports to TII, and USHMM the last one was on the 19th August 1943;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ation_camp
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10007257

The obvious answer is that Robertson went to TI, the labour camp, not TII, the death camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:47 am

Heinz Rosenberg's ‘eye witness’ TREBLINKA testimony is clearly prone to exaggeration and deception.
E.g. claiming the Treblinka camp he was transited through had no toilet facilities.
E.g. being given no food or water except one pear to a carriage of about 60- 80 people over three days.
E.g. mothers and fathers having to watch their own children (about fifty) being beheaded by the SS.
Etc., etc. Clearly not credible.

And he was also very, very clearly describing a “death camp” where he claimed most arrivals never departed alive.
E.g. he claimed the kapos told him everyone who had arrived there before them had been killed (by implication gassed). Yet no accepted testimony and no reputable historian claims there were ever gassings at T1.

The workers he described were pulling loads of clothes and shoes. Not gravel. That fits with an Aktion Reinhard camp.
He describes people being selected for work other than mining a gravel quarry. That fits with a transit camp not a T1 penal labour camp
He describes being in a steam room. T1 didn't have a steam room (see diagram previously posted here)
He describes his group being showered, given new clothes and shoes and THEN being transited elsewhere, which fits a T2 AR transit camp, not a sentence in the T1 penal labour camp.

He very clearly was not describing an arrival at the T1 penal labour camp where prisoners were specifically sent who had been sentenced to doing hard labour working the gravel quarry. I.e. prisoners sentenced to time in T1 obviously could not get out of serving their sentence by claiming they were locksmiths.

Summary:
If his testimony is accepted as an unreliable, exaggerated but basically true personal experience of a visit to a Treblinka 'death camp', then he could only be describing a transit through T2. A transit that included time in a steam room, a shower, with new clothes provided and selection for work in other camps. A transit that didn't personally witness any gassing facilities or any corpses.

If we consider his testimony is actually describing a visit to T1 then we must assume again that his account is an unreliable one. I.e. concerning exterminations at T2, he can not be describing anything that he personally witnessed, and therefore his account about being in a 'work unit for heaven' — viz. for people on their way to be gassed — is bogus. His story that kapos told him nobody had ever survived a visit to that camp before, is also bogus: either his claim or the kapos story to him.
And we must also accept that T1 functioned as a transit camp where people were selected for work, were showered, were given new clothes and then were transited by rail elsewhere. Which is a claim that is currently not accepted in 'holocaust' history concerning T1.
Interview with Henry Robertson alias Heinz Rosenberg.

Transit through Treblinka


A: I think we were in the transport two or three days. I honestly can’t remember right now. The doors were never opened. They gave us one little pear, but you know a hundred people in a car that pear went over right away, you know. And then we stopped, we couldn’t look out, but all night long they would move that car back and forth, like a football, you know, the people got completely, what should I say, it was abnormal, you know, you were pushed back and forth by tremendous force. They would (sound effect) and push. Then early in the morning the SS opened these cattle car doors and they were standing there with the German shepherds [alsatian dogs] and with the kapos and they shouted “Get out you dirty Jews, get out, run, run, run, get out, get out, run.” And we saw a gate and it said Treblinka. And it said “Arbeit Mach Frei, the work will make you free.”

Q: And this was the middle of September?
A: This was probably the 17th or 18th of September, 1943. And we came to this camp, we had to run.
[There] was a terrible sweet smell. A terrible smell. We didn’t know what Treblinka was, we had no idea. And we saw prisoners pulling tremendous loads, a wagon with shoes and with clothes. And we were put separate on one spot, the 200. Some had died, I don’t remember how many made it or not. About 240 most probably.
And there were kapos and there were Dutch Jews and they told us "where you from"?
I said “we’re from Minsk”.
They said “this is the ______ commando” that meant this is the commando to heaven.
I said “what are you talking about”?
”Well, you will see, this is the commando to heaven. Do you have anything good with you”?
I said “why? I need this”.
“You don’t need it anymore”.
They were one hundred per cent sure, these kapos, [that] we would be gassed too.

So after a while, we were standing there about three hours, not permitted to go to the toilet, there were no toilets. After three hours an SS delegation came and said, “are there any carpenters here? Yes, three carpenters. Any locksmiths? Yes. Any plumbers? Yes. Any electricians? Yes. Get out, get out, get out”.
And I, my friend Herman Hoffman was an electrician, he said to me, "if they ask for locksmith next time, get out too". "Locksmith?"
“Yes. I knew about it”.
I was in the steam room. I got out too.
We took Otto Menkin with us and Herman and about hundred people went out.
And they said “are there any gardeners”? “Yes”.
Everybody went as a gardener. The gardeners we never saw again.
But we were pushed on the side and we went to a barrack and we had to undress. We had still not prison uniforms but we had old clothes marked with ___. So we had to undress. The little thing we had, here, here, here. Nothing. We were searched from top to bottom.
Then we went into a shower room. We didn’t know what it was. And we got out and then we came to a room where they gave us each one a new uniform and wooden shoes or something like this and then they said you will stay here and you will be transported to Deshov.

So the kapos said to us, that kapos: “you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive”.
So we still didn’t know what Treblinka was. I never heard about Treblinka before, you know. But we heard the smell and he said ”this is a death factory”. But you know, even getting from the ghetto in Minsk, even seeing everything, we didn’t know what a death factory was, you know. We didn’t know, we didn’t know.

So in the evening they put us back on a cattle car to Puchine which wasn’t too far away. Because the next morning we got there. In Puchine was a work camp, a concentration work camp, a very small camp. And we worked for the Heinkel factory. This was taken over by the — this used to be Polish airplane factory, taken over by the Germans. And we got there was a small camp and this camp was, there were about 250 Polish Jews and women there. And just before we got there, the SS had executed all the children there by beheading them. And the grave, you know the mothers and fathers had to watch, there were about fifty children. So we got there, the Polish Jews did not like the German Jews, they called us the Yekkas. There was always friction, but they were in command. And we were put to work there in Puchine in one camp and then the next camp. This lasted about, I would think, four or six months. I can’t remember I have to look it up in my book. If you wait a minute I can get it. You want me to make sure of the dates?

Q: Sure.
A: It was from September 17 to April 21, 1944, in Puchine...

I considered it my duty to tell everybody who wants to listen to it that whatever happened in the Holocaust, can never happen again. And I will do my damn best when I talk to people I always tell them whatever they want to hear. Most people don’t want to hear about it. I can’t take it, you know. I say you should hear about it so you know what’s going on.

This is a verbatim transcript of spoken word.

https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findin ... trs_en.pdf
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:02 pm

A communiqué sent from Dr. Irmfried Eberl to Dr. Heinz Auerswald, Commissioner for the Warsaw Ghetto.
Dr. med. Irmfried Eberl
SS-Untersturmführer
Warsaw
Palais Brühl/Head of SS and Police
Warsaw, 07.07.1942

To the
Commissary for the Jewish Quarter in Warsaw

[stamp of receipt by the Commissary for the Jewish Quarter in Warsaw, 7th July 1942]

Warsaw
Palais Brühl

Subject: Work Camp Treblinka

The work camp Treblinka will be ready for operation on Saturday, 11.07.1942.


Dr. Irmfried Eberl was the first commandant of Treblinka 2 from the beginning of the camp’s operation in July 1942 to the end of August 1942. Post-war trial testimony claimed he was fired due to incompetence and replaced by the former commandant of Sobibór, Franz Paul Stangl.

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Dr. Irmfried Eberl in 1942

The following quotes are excerpts from letters sent whilst at Treblinka to his first wife, Ruth Eberl (who died during the war):

The first has the return adress of “SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Eberl, Treblinka b/ Malkinia, SS-Sonderkommando” and is dated June 29, 1942. In it the new commandant, bearing the rank of SS-Untersturmführer, described the final phase of the construction of the camp as follows:
“Die letzten Tage waren eine tolle Hetzjagd, umsomehr als sich die Aufbauarbeiten dem Ende nähern und wir den Termin 1.7. nicht halten können, aber nur so wenig als möglich überschreiben wollen. Durch verschiedene Vorkommnisse (Liegenbleiben von Wagen, Unfall, nicht zuletzt Papierkrieg) wurde die Fertigstellung verzögert. (…) Mir persönlich geht es ausgezeichnet. Es ist viel Betrieb und das macht mir Spass.”

Translation:
“The last days have been an awful hurry, all the more since the construction work nears its end. We will not be able to keep the July 1 deadline but we are trying to exceed it as little as possible. Because of various incidents (stalled trains , accidents, and not least bureaucratic problems) the completion has been delayed. (…) Personally I’m doing fine. There is a lot of work to do, something which I enjoy.”
(p. 70-71)

The second extract from a letter was sent on July 30th, 1942, when deportees from the Warsaw ghetto where arriving to the camp in large numbers:
“Daß ich in der letzten Zeit etwas wenig geschrieben habe weiß ich, konnte dies aber nicht ändern, da die letzten Warschauer Wochen von einer Hetze begleitet waren, die unvorstellbar war, ebenso hat hier in Treblinka ein Tempo eingesetzt, das geradezu atemberaubend ist. Wenn ich vier Teile hätte und der Tag 100 Stunden, dann würde das wahrscheinlich auch noch nicht ganz reichen. (…) Es ist mir, allerdings unter Rücksichtslosem Einsatz meiner Person gelungen, in den letzten Tagen mit nur dem halben Personal meine Aufgabe zu meistern. Allderdings habe ich auch meine Leute rücksichtslos überall eingesetzt, wo es nötig war und meine Leute haben wacker mitgezogen. Und auf diese Leistung bin ich froh und stolz (…) Denn da Du die schöne Seite in meinem Leben darstellst, sollst Du von allem nichts wissen.”

Translation:
“I know that I have not written much to you lately, but I could not help this, since the last Warsaw weeks have been accompanied by an unbelievable agitation and likewise here in Treblinka we have reached a pace that is downright breathtaking. Even if there were four of me and each day was 100 hours long, this would surely not be enough (…) By employing myself ruthlessly, I have nevertheless managed the last days with only half of the personnel at my command. I have deployed my people ruthlessly wherever it was necessary and they have struggled along valiantly. I am happy and proud of this achievement. (…) Since you represent for me the beautiful part of my life, you should not know everything about it.”
Eberl spent the last days of the war and the months following it as a PoW. He was not regarded as a war criminal during his time spent as a PoW and was released in the summer of 1945.

Eberl then settled in the small town of Blaubeuren bei Ulm in southern Germany, where the parents of his late wife Ruth also lived. In Blaubeuren Eberl practiced as a physician under his own name. He remarried and had a son in 1947.

Later in 1947 he was arrested by occupation authorities, suspected of involvement in the euthanasia program.
On February 9th, 1948, a former nurse from the Grafeneck euthanasia centre reported Eberl to the Tübingen police.
Some days later, while still in custody, an unidentified fellow prisoner reportedly showed Eberl a copy of the newly published book Der SS-Staat by Eugen Kogon, in which Eberl’s activity in the euthanasia program was mentioned (but not his role as Treblinka commandant).

On February 16th, 1948 Eberl allegedly committed suicide by hanging himself with a sheet while awaiting trial. How convenient for the custodians and propagators of the narrative that later became known as 'the holocaust' .
He left behind a letter to his wife and son, in which, as Grabher puts it, “one will look in vain for an admittal of guilt or words of regret and remorse” (p. 100).

Maybe that's because he wasn't guilty of what he was accused of.

https://revblog.codoh.com/2009/07/revie ... main-2006/

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4511
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:11 am

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Treblinka 2 and the show-trial ‘eye-witness’ testimony
of Auschwitz Kommandant Rudolf Höß

Q. Didn't you visit any of the three existing extermination camps?

A. Yes.

Q. Which ones?

A. Treblinka ...

Q. What did you see there?

A. At that time the action in connection with the Warsaw Ghetto was in progress, and I watched the procedure.

Q. How was it done there?

A. They had chambers for about 200 people. Into these chambers the fumes from an exhaust machine came in. These motors had been taken from captured enemy equipment such as tanks, trucks and had been installed next to the gas chambers. They were run by gas, and those victims were supposed to be suffocated by the fumes.

Q. How many chambers were there, and how many people were killed?

A. I do not know the exact figure, but there may have been about ten chambers. It was built next to a ramp and the train drove right up to it. The people were unloaded right into the chambers, and this procedure was necessary because the motors did not always work right.

Q. Weren't the people first registered or interrogated?

A. No.

Q. They were put directly into the chambers from the trains?

A. Yes.

Q. And what happened to their clothing?

A. They had to undress before they were put into the chambers.

Q. And their valuables?

A. That was all sorted. I saw a number of shacks there in which there were piles of clothing, shoes, valuables, etc., all sorted separately and neatly stacked. They were later packed.

Q. What happened to these things?

A.I do not know.

Q. Who did the sorting?

A. Inmates.

Q. Who guarded the trains in which the Jews were to be gassed alive?

A.The train that I saw In Treblinka arrived guarded by members of the Security Police; also the trains that came into Auschwitz from Poland were guarded by the Security Police.

Q. Did the train loads consist of women, men and children all together?

A.All together.

Q. We are now talking about the train in Treblinka?

A. Yes, the one in Treblinka.

Q. Were there babies, real small children and very old people also?

A. All kinds, if they were evacuated from Warsaw.

Q. Now I understand from your statement that the people — men, women and children had to strip themselves completely naked. Am I right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the women carried their babies with them into the chambers?

A. Yes.

Q. And they knew what was going to happen to them?

A. Yes, I assume so.

Q. Did they know what was going to happen to them?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. And what was your reaction?

A. I did not consider this problem, or the means, or the manner in which it was conducted because in my opinion they knew it was going to happen to them.

Q. But you found it lawful and right that they were to be exterminated. It was only the manner you objected to?

A. Yes, according to my discussions with Himmler it was the way you just stated.

Q. Did anyone try to escape?

A. No, I didn't see that.

Q. How long did you remain in Treblinka?

A. About three or four hours.
. . . . . .

Testimony given on April-fool's day, 1st April 1946. Nuremberg.
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Herr Höß is the first person who was presented to the world as a captured perpetrator of a planned genocide of ALL ‘Jews' using homicidal gas chambers.
I.e. he was the first ‘Nazi’ to be given a haircut, a shower and a shave, put in clean, smart clothes and then presented publically as a perpetrator of what since the 1970's has been enshrined in the collective consciousness using the words 'the holocaust'.
This is a significant distinction. A significant ‘first’.

He was publically presented to the world as a confessing, self-accusing, mass-murdering perpetrator of a genocide of Jews. But more importantly, he was presented as that to those surviving members of the German Third Reich High-command at Nuremburg. He was presented as irrefutable confirmation of a monstrous 'Nazi' war-crime to the accused in the dock!!!

He himself appeared there at that ‘trial’ NOT as an accused but as a witness. And he was presented as an ‘eye-witness’ to convince the accused in the Nuremburg trials of their collective guilt for monstrous crimes.

He himself claimed to not only have 'witnessed' and carried out mass-murder by gas at Auschwitz, BUT HE ALSO CLAIMED to have been an eye-witness to mass-gassings of Jews, at Treblinka in June 1941, using exhaust fumes from captured tank engines, etc., as the weapon of murder.

Plus he described 'witnessing' an operational camp that had already mass-murdered 80,000 people in the previous six months* before his claimed visit.
A camp where the ‘gas chambers’ where built adjacent to the railway ramp so that victims got off the train undressed on the ramp and then went straight from the ramp into the adjacent gas chambers built next to the ramp.

In answers to mainly 'yes' or 'no' questions, he told the world — via filmed and transcribed Nuremburg trials — that the arriving Jews were not first registered or interrogated, but were put directly into the chambers from the trains. No sorting. No selection. No journeys down narrow, concealed, 'himmelstrasse' pathways to gas chambers further into the camp, as the official narrative insists.

And he claimed that he travelled from Auschwitz to Treblinka and saw all this in the early summer of 1941 with the specific intent to witness 'final solution' mass-murder in order to design and build his own extermination facility of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau, which he claimed he began on the 3rd September 1941.

And he claimed that he 'witnessed' all this in the early summer of 1941 despite the fact that construction of Treblinka 2 was not even begun until the 10th April 1942 [1] and did not become operational until July 22nd 1942.
And despite the fact that analysis of aerial photographs do not show foundations of buildings considered today to have been gas chambers right next to the railway-ramp.

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Rudolf Höss DURING the Nürnberg ‘trial’: appearing as a defence witness for Ernst Kaltenbrunner.

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Rudolf Höss BEFORE the ‘trial’: preparation for appearing as a defence witness at Nürnberg.

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1944 aerial photo of Treblinka 2 overlaid with outlines of already-dismantled structures (marked in red/orange).
1 = the part of the T2 camp containing SS and Hiwi guards living quarters.
2 = the part of the T2 camp for arrivals. The railway ramp and unloading platform (centre), marked with the red arrow. The 'tube' or "himmelstrasse" is marked with a dashed line. The undressing barracks for men and women, surrounded by a solid fence with no view of the outside, are marked with two rectangles.
3 = the alleged 'extermination' part of the camp. The building containing alleged gas chambers is marked with a cross. The alleged burial pits are in light yellow.


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------------------------------------------------

[1] 'Dam im imię na wieki' (in Polish) p. 77, chapt. 3:1.
by Edward Kopówka and Paweł Rytel-Andrianik (2011), Wydawnictwo Sióstr Loretanek. ISBN 978-83-7257-497-8
http://echomatkibozejniepokalaniepoczet ... _wieki.pdf

* Rudolf Höß's s signed testimony presented at the Nuremburg post-War show-trials.



. . . . . . .

The Hollywood film dramatisation of the Nürnberg show-trials admitted the Allies tricked the defendant lawyer of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Dr. Kaufmaan, into calling Höß to gave his Nürnberg 'trial' testimony as a witness for their defence.

From the recording of the Nürnberg testimony we hear an American prosecutor reading a statement claimed to be Höß's statement, to him. Höß merely says "Jawohl” when asked if it is correct.

And in the transcription of Höß's pre-trial 'defence' testimony we can clearly see the intimidation in forcing that acquiescence regarding his factually flawed 'testimony' regarding Treblinka:
Q. And the women carried their babies with them into the chambers?

A. Yes.

Q. And they knew what was going to happen to them?

A. Yes, I assume so.

Q. Did they know what was going to happen to them?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. And what was your reaction?

A. I did not consider this problem, or the means, or the manner in which it was conducted, because in my opinion they knew it was going to happen to them.

Q. But you found it lawful and right that they were to be exterminated. It was only the manner you objected to?

A. Yes, according to my discussions with Himmler it was the way you just stated.
This is an intimidated man agreeing with his interrogator and saying what he thinks they want him to say.

And correcting himself if he doesn't say what is expected:
"Did they know?"
Yes, I assume so.
Did they know??
Er, yes, of course they knew! Yes. Yes. Of course they did.

And when he is confused what to answer, just saying it is whatever his interrogator says it is:
"Yes, ...it was the way you just stated."

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Höß showing signs of torture, evidenced by the many small stab wounds on his face

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"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:07 am

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Kurt Franz

Kurt Hubert Franz (born: 17th January 1914 – died: 4th July 1998) had been deputy commandant of the Treblinka camp under Stangl, and then Camp Commander from mid-August of 1943 until the 19th October 1943.
Franz was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1965 by a war crimes tribunal in Dusseldorf for allegedly being part of the murder of at least 300,000 people — including 193 allegedly by his own hand — at the Treblinka 2 Aktion Reinhardt camp.
He was released sometime in May 1993 aged 79, much to the disgust of Jewish organisations.

"Franz was freed, despite objections from German prosecutors, under a proviso of German law permitting release any time after a minimum 15 years of a life sentence is served."
http://www.jta.org/1993/08/03/archive/d ... by-germany

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Kurt Franz (far right) at Belzec.

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Franz Stangl (left) and Kurt Franz (right) at Treblinka.

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Kurt Franz (far right) at Treblinka trial, 1965.

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Franz at home in Dusseldorf with his wife, 1990's.

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https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 6&t=175843

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http://eba-www.yokohama-cu.ac.jp/~kogis ... blinka.htm

Translation (not mine)

Kurt Franz, born in 1914, was commander of the Treblinka extermnation camp. The High Court in Düsseldorf sentenced him, based on charges of "assistance to murder in at least 300,000 cases, murder on 139 persons in at least 35 cases, and attempted murder" to life in prison. Those 300,000 persons had been gassed under his command, 139 persons died by his own hands. Kurt Franz meanwhile had been released from prison. In a German court he never confessed to being the former commander of Treblinka.

Interviewer: Mr. Franz, I assume it was clear that Trebblinka was an extermination camp.
Franz: Yes, people died there or had their lives taken.

I: By gas?
F: By gas

I: How was the gas produced?
F: I haven't seen that but I knew there was a French truck. If I am not wrong some Saurer or Saurer Engine. And there exhaust gas was led into the cells. The cells had been on the side.

I: How long did the people suffer?
F: I cannot say, you know. It was said 4 to 10 minutes. But I cannot say. I was not in charge up there. Some Oberschaführer Matthes was in charge, but he was not a real Oberschaführer, more a police officer. In Treblinka all were police officers whereas in Belzec some SS officer named Nieman did the work, which was done in Treblinka by this man.

I: You have seen gassings in two camps? Not only "seen", you attended gassings?
F: I know that it had happened, I know it. I wasn’t sent to Treblinka to be told those things. Everything was done secretly, under camouflage. But I knew it, I saw it, I was angry, even in Treblinka.

I: You ddn't want to assist?
F: I didn't want to particpate and that meant death to Jirmann and it meant death to this Ukrainian Alexejew Pior, who was shot then.

I: I have here in front of me a Treblinka plan. Can you show me how the gassing procedure happened?
F: People were driven inside by wagons. I think 20 wagons were fitting inside. And then the doors were swept open. Those were always Jews, even when I arrived there. If from Stangl or Eberl, I don't know. I never experienced Eberl. The Jews were unloaded and led to this place, I don't remember, having been sided by two huts or one but I think one. Those people had to enter the hut and undress. So far I can say that.

I: Strip naked?
F: Naked. And there was a corner where the women's hair was cut off. This was done by Suchomel with whom I am really angry because he accused me. And then those Jews — and to be honest I never saw children — were led through the so-called "tube", which was completely covered with tan, it was hidden like everything in the camp. They had an extra camouflage command, led by someone named Südow, or so. He was responsible that no one could see a thing. The Jews were then led up here and entered the so-called gas chamber. And there they were gassed. That is a fact. From this position I do not move.

I: Did you see the montains of dead bodies?
F: No. I hadn't seen it. I knew from where I probably could have seen it but that would have meant to peak through a hole or cut some wire: I didn't go there. I was disgusted. I cannot stand such things. I couldn't see people burn. They had been put here on a roast and burnt. Here they were burnt.

I: What happened to the ashes?
F: I cannot say. There was initially no roast. Whem I was there there was none. Some other Ünterführer made the roast. Before that there were graves (pits), in which the corpses were laid. By crane. They came from the gas chamber and had been carried to the pits. That's how I see it. And after the roast was available they had been torn out by crane and put on the roast...Jews did that... I didn't take notice of it. They had been placed on it...even the ones out of the soil...and they were burnt. And then there were sieves. Anglulated ones like for sieving sand...and the ashes were sieved through it, and what remained as concrete was mangled and whipped until all...

I: Disappeared?
F: Disappeared.

I: Have you seen "furuncle SS"?
F: Who?

I: Furuncle SS, someone named Booz, he was in the SS not wanting to participate in gassing, so he scratched own furuncles until they were infected. He then was discharged.
F: In Treblinka?
I: Yes
F: No, I don't know of furuncle.

I: You said the women's hair was cut off. Wasn't it the gold jews who took the jewelery and the dentists tearing out the teeth. Do you know about that?
F: I never heard anything like that. I haven't seen it. That was an internal affair, not my business. Up there Matthes was the one responsible. Up there where the Jews were killed, Küttner was the one in charge. I was in charge for the guards. That was the assignment. This Küttner didn't take orders fom me. He was police officer in the highest rank.

I: Did you see how the items were delivered, like the gold?
F: In this cottage the clothing was sorted. That was the clothing cottage where the rail track was. Those garments were simply stockpiled by some working jews...garments and glasses... You could see that without problem, it was in the middle of the place.

I: From which army branches did the German forces derive?
F: All from police with very few exceptions of general SS

I: Waffen SS?
F: I was Waffen SS and probably one more person named Willi Mätzig, aka Bubi. He was the paymaster. He was inm charge, he was Waffen SS.

I: The rest Ukrainians?
F: Ukrainians and German speaking ones you cannot call Ukraainians.

I: Volksdeutsch?
F: They were Russian and came from behind the Urals. They spoke fuently with Württemberg accents. They had lived there a longtime like their parents and grand parents. They spoke perfect German. Probably Volksdeutsche. In former times we nicknamed them "booty Germans".

I: Those mass murderers happened half a century ago, what do you think of them today?
F: If I had known what would have come after I changed from the Wehrmacht to the SS - never would I have changed.For the simple reason I cannot stand what happened there, this Treblinka and Belzec.

I: Why were those people killed? Criminals?
F: What ‘why’? I never ever have had any problems with jews. And I have to insist that the co-accuser, some Dr. Neuman had testified that I had been in his appartment long ago having threatened him. I didn't know this man. I didn't have anything against jews. I played handball with them in Ratingen and I played with them in Düsseldof against Makabi. I hadn't any dispute. I don't see differences between catholics, protestants or jews. I had a jewish friend named Ballach who own a pub in Ratingen, that is a friend of mine. When I was young I went into some dancing club called Hirsch - in the age of 18 or 19. The owners name was also Hirsch, Kurt Hirsch. He was my friend. I had no reason to kill those people.

In Belzec and Treblinka tens of thousands were killed, women children and men. What did you think?
F: I was against. In the beginning nobody knew it anyway. Some pits were dug. In 1942 when I came nothing happened.
I didn't know what the pits were for. There was an old border line — the old Austrian-Russian borderline — between Belzec and Rawaruska. That I knew. I didn't know what was to come.

I: What would you do receiving the same orders today?
F: Never, ever.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:16 am

So, the filmed interviews of Kurt Franz in the 1980's?
Anyone know anything more about other filmed interviews with him?

Or about the curious anomalies which he states in this interview?

For example, an online source says he came to Belzec after being stationed at Buchenwald camp, and that at Buchenwald he served as SS-Scharführer (Sergeant) in the SS clothing department.
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It says he was transferred from Buchenwald in Spring 1942 to Belzec and worked there till August/September 1942. And during this period he was promoted to SS-Oberscharführer (Staff Sergeant).

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Kurt Franz at Belzec camp.

Yet in that interview published by Michel Alexandre he is quoted as saying:
“at Belzec I was still a Standartenführer, having come there from Marburg, to investigate something, or they wanted to introduce a new gas, or Kappsan(?) for my sake, ...or, what do I know, to carry out the extermination...”
Und in Belzec bin ich ja damals noch zu einem Standartenführer hingegangen. Der aus Marburg gekommen war. Um irgend etwas zu untersuchen, oder sie wollten eine neues Gas einführen, oder meinetwegen Kappsan ...oder was weiß ich, um die vernichtung durchzuführen...
In numerous biographical descriptions he is supposed to have been involved in T4 euthanasia exterminations. Yet its also acknowledged that Franz worked as a cook at Hartheim, Brandenburg, Grafeneck and Sonnenstein??! So... Was he a T4 exterminator or was he a cook?

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Franz served as cook in Hartheim from 1940-41.

And why would the SS transfer a person with cooking and clothing experience from Marburg to Belzec specifically “to investigate something, or they wanted to introduce a new gas, or Kappsan(?) for my sake, ...to carry out the extermination...”[/i]?? :geek:

And anyone know what Kappsan refers to?

The 'interview' is taken from this book:
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The film of the complete interview (of which the book has extracts) can be seen here, starting at 12:45




The facts are that in that filmed interview which I linked to, Kurt Franz stated things that contradict not only the realms of physical reality, but also the biographical details with which all the histories and web articles on him repeat.

Q1. Was he in Marburg or not?

Q2. Was he sent from Marburg to Belzec to investigate a new gas?

Q3. Or was he an ex-cook who became a staff sergeant in charge of clothing there, as the documentation confirms?

Q4. Could a kommandant of Treblinka be unaware of the details of its functioning if it was built and designed purely as an extermination camp?

Q5. Could Franz have been so completely unaware and even wrong about how long it took to gas a batch of victims, if he had that kommandant responsibility.

Q6. How could he realistically believe a homicidal mass-gassing took from only four to ten minutes if he has been involved in the proceedure at both Belzec and Treblinka!?

Q7. Could he really not have seen the alleged piles of bodies or the alleged open-air pyres and the alleged purpose-built gas chambers and still functioned effectively as the camp kommandant?

Q8. Could he really have been as totally unconnected to the extermination operation as he claimed?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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