Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

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Werd
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:45 pm
Problems with the gassing narrative does not prove, therefore no gassings.
Problems are enough to justify my doubt. I don't have to show where the Jews went to show the chemistry proves the hundreds of thousands of Jews weren't gassed in those rooms or that documents prove they were working on installing showers in those basements in summer 1943. The idea that Germans would want to stop gassing Jews to install showers is retarded. OH I KNOW WHY THEY STOPPED TRYING TO INSTALL SHOWERS. BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD DELOUSING IN BUNKER 1 RIGHT? :lol:
Werd wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:38 pm


Many so called documents about allegedly super power ovens in Birkenau that Henry Tauber claimed to burn up 4 corpses in 30 minutes in one oven, turn out to not actually verify what the lie-witnesses claimed.
viewtopic.php?p=130002#p130002
viewtopic.php?p=138685#p138685
viewtopic.php?p=138691#p138691

[...]

The so called underground corpse cellars (leichenkellers) in the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoria did NOT actually contain sufficient traces of cyanide in the walls to be consistent with mass gassing operations.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html

and
The Chemistry of Auschwitz book free online
The Chemistry of Auschwitz video online
The Chemistry of Auschwitz video transcript
(an anti Markiewicz clip can be read here)
Rudolf destroys Green 1
Rudolf destroys Green 2
Rudolf destroys Green 3
Nizkor's apples-oranges argument
Painting the walls nonsense 1
Painting the walls nonsense 2
Many so called "Special actions" were in fact sanitary measures.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3382


[...]

A group of Polish historians claimed they found 74 documents proving criminal traces such as "special action" or "special treatment" or "sonderkommando." Upon further inspection by Carlo Mattogno, we find that "special" something refers to something innocuous. Often more sanitary measures to reduce mortality. We also find that there was more than one type of sonderkommando in the camp. In other words, not just Jews being forced to empty gas chambers and pluck gold fillings out of corpses. Actual tasks as such as building and maintenance.
viewtopic.php?p=118367#p118367
http://www.holocausthandbooks.com/index ... ge_id=1011


[...]

Maybe that's why they allowed such things as bogus documents such as Hoss' signed confession to pass as "evidence" in an allegedly non-kangaroo court.
Werd wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:49 pm
[...]
5. The Torture of Rudolf Hoss. - Sifting through all the different depositions of Hoss and showing how they contradict each other, the laws of science, other known Auschwitz documents, and also documenting his torture and psychological trauma - thus disqualifying him as credible. The fact that others still try to excuse or minimize his torture, "Oh he wasn't tortured before Nuremberg therefore we can believe him" is stupid. It is also revealed that his captors were playing slippery with his so called confession.
viewtopic.php?p=133605#p133605
On March 14, 1946 two days after his capture, at 2:30 in the morning, Rudolf Höss signed an 8 page typed text document written in German. The document lacked any form of formatting, headings or printed administrative references and was littered with hand written corrections. The document was also signed by two witnesses – British sergeants and a captain of the 92nd Field Security Section, who certified that the prisoner made his statement voluntarily. The captain dated his signature March 14, but one of the witnessing officers dated it March 15. The document does not bear any indication of place where it was signed. Remember the dates – March 14 or 15.

Then on April 5, 1946 Rudolf Höss signed a 20 pages long affidavit written in English – language he did not speak. He signed the affidavit under oath, even though it was written in the language of his captors, not his own.

In order to hide that Rudolf Höss had signed an affidavit in language he did not speak, the original text was recast and presented as “translation” into English from German. However during the hasty attempt to hide the deception, mistakes were made so the handwritten addition to paragraph 10 was mistakenly added to the end of paragraph 9, rendering the paragraph incomprehensible. It was the forgery that was used before the Nuremberg tribunal.

Carlo Mattogno's book that is dedicated SOLELY to the atrocity reports from the Poles and Soviets was finally completed in Italian last year (after being re-written at least two times according to my email correspondence with Germar Rudolf) and is slated to finally be put into English. Not since The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz, has a Mattogno book promised to be so damning!
Wider discussion on the torture and abuse of Hoss in this topic page 62 to 67

More examples of defendants being put under incredible pressure and threats.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2095
viewtopic.php?p=58493#p58493

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Nessie
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:54 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:45 pm
Problems with the gassing narrative does not prove, therefore no gassings.
Problems are enough to justify my doubt. I don't have to show where the Jews went to show the chemistry proves the hundreds of thousands of Jews weren't gassed in those rooms or that documents prove they were working on installing showers in those basements in summer 1943.
You are yet again using a form of argument you have previously and correctly dismissed as a non sequitur. Doubts about traces of Zyklon B and documents about fitting showers to one room do not evidence those people were not gassed and they left the camp.

Why are you relying on a form of argument you dismiss elsewhere?

Is this a reasonable statement or not? I want and answer and will keep on asking until you answer.

Unless you can evidence they left the camp, then I do not have any reason to believe they left the camp.

The idea that Germans would want to stop gassing Jews to install showers is retarded. OH I KNOW WHY THEY STOPPED TRYING TO INSTALL SHOWERS. BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD DELOUSING IN BUNKER 1 RIGHT? :lol:
......
The idea that Germans would want to stop gassing Jews to install an air raid shelter is retarded. OH .... wait, they did that in Krema I. There is a precedent to altering the use of the Leichenkellers. Indeed, all the kremas had Leichenkellers and you happily claim that they were being altered to be used as delousing chambers, showers and bomb shelters.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 11:51 am
You are yet again using a form of argument you have previously and correctly dismissed as a non sequitur.
You are once again confusing my induction with your deduction.
Doubts about traces of Zyklon B and documents about fitting showers to one room do not evidence those people were not gassed and they left the camp.
They're enough to justify agnosticism which says well now I'm not so sure.
Unless you can evidence they left the camp, then I do not have any reason to believe they left the camp.[/b]
Now THAT'S a non sequitor.

The idea that Germans would want to stop gassing Jews to install an air raid shelter is retarded. OH .... wait, they did that in Krema I.
Well then it's not so retarded for doing it in Birkenau if they already did it in Auschwitz I, dummy. You just destroyed your own argument. :lol:

Second of all, there is no proof that was ever a gas chamber. David Cole exposed that it was a post war reconstruction that that the room used to have running toilets in it. I presented that long Crowell article in the main section of rodoh to offer an alternative explanation. Mattogno of course dismisses it. However, Crowell's discussion of showers and PROPER interpretation of OTHER documents where Mattogno DOESN'T diverge from him are good point.

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Nessie
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:26 pm
Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 11:51 am
You are yet again using a form of argument you have previously and correctly dismissed as a non sequitur.
You are once again confusing my induction with your deduction.
Merely adding probably and suggesting rather than affirming does not mean you can claim no gassings, therefore they probably went missing.

You have ignored a chronological step, which is they had to have left the camp, before they went missing since they cannot have gone missing inside the camp. You cannot claim no gassings, therefore they left the camp. That is a non sequitur.

You also suggested that there went on trains to the east and were released there. You cannot claim no gassings, therefore they went by train to be released in the east. That is a non sequitur.

You are using a form of argument that you know to be incorrect. Is this a reasonable statement or not? I want and answer and will keep on asking until you answer.

Unless you can evidence they left the camp, then I do not have any reason to believe they left the camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:26 pm
Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 11:51 am
.....Unless you can evidence they left the camp, then I do not have any reason to believe they left the camp.
Now THAT'S a non sequitor.
How? The conclusion leads directly from the premise.

It is normal to believe in what is evidenced to have happened and not in what is not evidenced to have happened. There is no way that c900,000 people could leave the camp without that leaving any evidence at all. Far fewer people left to work and that left evidence.

It also respects the burden of proof.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm
Werd wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:26 pm
Now THAT'S a non sequitor.
How?
I told you already.
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:04 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 6:27 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 5:48 pm
My argument is due to lack of sufficient scientific evidence of gassings in the numbers claimed, there were either limited gassings or no gassings. So they are probably missing.
You are using a form of argument that you know is wrong.
I said probably. I'm using an inductive argument. You're using an argument structured in a deductive style, of which the strength of your premises rest on induction as well. Albiet, poor strength. I mean, chemistry is a problem for your side, documents is a problem for your side, credible witnesses sure are a problem for your side. Not quite the same, you and I.
&
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:41 pm
Probably, changes the whole context and makes the difference between my induction and your deduction styles of argument. We're not doing the same thing. Hence your charge against me of hypocritically doing something I'm telling you not to do is wrong. It's apples and oranges, silly.
Next:
Unless you can evidence they left the camp, then I do not have any reason to believe they left the camp.
Until you or anyone else responds to Rudolf's chemistry analysis and those other things I always put in big text, I have no reason to believe they were gassed in the numbers claimed and burned in ovens in the times claimed.

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Nessie
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 3:19 pm
Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm
Werd wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:26 pm
Now THAT'S a non sequitor.
How?
I told you already.
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:04 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 6:27 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 5:48 pm
My argument is due to lack of sufficient scientific evidence of gassings in the numbers claimed, there were either limited gassings or no gassings. So they are probably missing.
You are using a form of argument that you know is wrong.
I said probably. I'm using an inductive argument. You're using an argument structured in a deductive style, of which the strength of your premises rest on induction as well. Albiet, poor strength. I mean, chemistry is a problem for your side, documents is a problem for your side, credible witnesses sure are a problem for your side. Not quite the same, you and I.
&
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:41 pm
Probably, changes the whole context and makes the difference between my induction and your deduction styles of argument. We're not doing the same thing. Hence your charge against me of hypocritically doing something I'm telling you not to do is wrong. It's apples and oranges, silly.
Your claim that an inductive argument cannot be a non sequitur is false. You claim no gassings, therefore they left the camp. You jump ahead to they went missing, but you miss a chronological and logical step.

That is why you selectively responding to my posts, which you edit down, as you dodge that gap.
Next:
Unless you can evidence they left the camp, then I do not have any reason to believe they left the camp.
Until you or anyone else responds to Rudolf's chemistry analysis and those other things I always put in big text, I have no reason to believe they were gassed in the numbers claimed and burned in ovens in the times claimed.
Yes you do, there is the reason that they did not leave the camp. That casts a huge doubt on Rudolf's claims, which are disputed anyway. If Rudolf was correct, there would be evidence those people left the camp, as c900,000 cannot have left without any evidence of that happening at all.

Historians have disagreed over how many died by gassings at Birkenau. They did not reach the number gassed by studying the amount of residue in the krema walls. They did so by checking records of arrivals against the numbers registered to work.

At most, Rudolf's findings may suggest the c900,000 figure is still too high. His findings certainly do not disprove gassings. The only way to do that is show something else happened and all those people left the camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 4:16 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 5:48 pm
My argument is due to lack of sufficient scientific evidence of gassings in the numbers claimed, there were either limited gassings or no gassings. So they are probably missing.
You claim no gassings, therefore they left the camp.
Nope. Not even close. Read again.
If Rudolf was correct, there would be evidence those people left the camp,
Some of them went to other camps for work. We already know this. Second of all, there is not necessarily going to be an abundance of evidence. One must take into account certain factors. Jews often didn't return to their home country, some of them were moved around by Soviets, some of them changed their names and hid their religion. Crowell already discussed this and I already mentioned it. Granted, 2.6 million didn't change their names and hide their religion, but a lot of them did.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10219
They did not reach the number gassed by studying the amount of residue in the krema walls.
Mistake #1 not checking the walls.
They did so by checking records of arrivals against the numbers registered to work.
Working backwards from a conclusion. That's always a problem. You know what else is a problem? Creating gassed Jews out of thin air like Danuta Czech did.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3656

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Nessie
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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:06 am
Nessie wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 4:16 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 5:48 pm
My argument is due to lack of sufficient scientific evidence of gassings in the numbers claimed, there were either limited gassings or no gassings. So they are probably missing.
You claim no gassings, therefore they left the camp.
Nope. Not even close. Read again.
If Rudolf was correct, there would be evidence those people left the camp,
Some of them went to other camps for work.
OK, lets break down your claim.
We already know this.
Indeed, we know about the people evidenced to have left the camp, which leaves a shortfall. What about the rest? It amounts to c900,000 people.
Second of all, there is not necessarily going to be an abundance of evidence.
There is an abundance of evidence for the ones we know about. Most were famously tattooed. They were registered to work or there are records they arrived at other camps, such as Stutthof.

There is then no evidence at all for the rest. No witnesses, documents, nothing. The Nazis kept records of the Jews they had painstakingly registered, but there is nothing for the group not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau.

There are also no witnesses, from camp guards, to the prisoners themselves. That is nearly a million people and not one single witness.
One must take into account certain factors. Jews often didn't return to their home country, some of them were moved around by Soviets, some of them changed their names and hid their religion.
That is after the war. You have jumped forward a year at least. First, evidence those not selected to work left Birkenau and arrived somewhere else.
Crowell already discussed this and I already mentioned it. Granted, 2.6 million didn't change their names and hide their religion, but a lot of them did.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10219
You are too embarrassed to say how many!
They did not reach the number gassed by studying the amount of residue in the krema walls.
Mistake #1 not checking the walls.
The records tell us how many went missing inside Birkenau. Not the residue in a wall.
They did so by checking records of arrivals against the numbers registered to work.
Working backwards from a conclusion. That's always a problem. You know what else is a problem? Creating gassed Jews out of thin air like Danuta Czech did.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3656
Then show me documents of some other evidence that prove those not selected to work left Birkenau and were transported elsewhere. At the moment you have a huge gap that you cannot explain and you attempt to just dismiss those people as missing has backfired, since they go missing INSIDE Birkenau and even more specifically than that, INSIDE the kremas. That is where the documentary trail runs out and you give documentary evidence the highest regard.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Nessie, this is why your last topic got locked...

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie is back to his tired mantra of, "Where did they gooooo?".

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