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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:11 pm
by Roberto
Censored CODOH post # 147

CODOH thread Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

A part of "Hannover"'s OP, in which he whined about those poor "Revisionist" darlings being "arrested and persecuted", was addressed in my second (also censored) post on the aforementioned thread.

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto
Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of
100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. still
dodging challenges fo corpses.
Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:58 am
Comments:

Same old moderator crap.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived.
If you really think so, then how do you explain, say, that the deconstruction of such "debunking" is heavily censored by one of the supposed "debunkers" on this forum?
Hannover wrote:That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the background of laws against Holocaust denial, wrong though they are, has nothing to do with what you would like it to have. Public denial of Communist crimes is also criminalized in some countries, by the way. And at least one country criminalizes the public denial of any war crime or crime against humanity, go figure.
Hannover wrote:That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship.
I don’t know who exactly is supposed to be demanding censorship, but I know who exercises it every day. It’s the CODOH moderator.
Hannover wrote:What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
Yep, I guess that’s why the CODOH moderator goes out of his way to protect the Revisionist canon from critical scrutiny.
Hannover wrote:The tide is turning.
Wishful thinking seems to be the (only) kind of thinking that Hannover excels in.
Censored CODOH post # 148, same thread.

Like so many others before it, this one seems to have gone down the memory hole in silence.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Rmbrmb21 wrote:Don't be so critical, maybe that pit reaches the center of the earth. It would fit right in with most of the other holocaust lore
Utter nonsense, see my reply to Hannover's OP.

You seem to swallow everything that Hannover writes, hook, line and sinker. Aren't Revisionists supposed to be critical?
The same goes for the next one, censored CODOH post # 149.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Dresden wrote:Image
"Mass Grave in Ponar, Lithuania"
Are you sure that's Lithuania and not Lilliput?
Image
Utter nonsense, see my reply to Hannover's OP.

You seem to swallow everything that Hannover writes, hook, line and sinker. Aren't Revisionists supposed to be critical?

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 pm
by Roberto
Censored CODOH post # 150

CODOH thread Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

This censored post addressed a particularly egregious showpiece of "Hannover"'s mendacity. Posting on RODOH as "Lily", "Hannover" made a fuss about some of the (yes, you guessed right) "fake" photos shown in my reply to his OP, referring to the aforementioned CODOH thread for "much more". The "much more" CODOH post then referred to something that "Hannover" had "seen" at "another site" (i.e. to his aforementioned post as "Lily"). Note that links to the "other site" (i.e. RODOH) are not allowed on CODOH. The "truth" that supposedly "welcomes" debate (according to "Hannover"'s slogan when posting as moderator) obviously does have secrets.

My reply to that censored post was censored with the following pretext:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto
Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of
100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field.
dodging more bizarre unrelated fake photos no
excavation shown no verifiable forensic report and that's
100,000?.
The usual "dodge" BS, the inevitable "fake photos" squealing (which once led "Hannover" to unwittingly proclaim German photos of Katyn as "fake" :lol: ), and the "that's 100,000?" imbecility ("Hannover" seems to be so infantile as to believe that the remains of 100,000 people, if they had been excavated, could all be shown on photographs).

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:At another site I see that Roberto has posted some photos of what he considers to be proof of the 100,000 allegedly murdered at Ponar.
Err, no. I posted photos which, together with German documents and largely German eyewitness testimonies (the latter two being the essential evidence, the photographs being mere illustrations of what becomes apparent from the other evidence), constitute proof of the fact that Ponary near Vilnius was a site of mass murder at which tens of thousands of people were killed. Not necessarily 100,000, but certainly a five-digit number.

As to the "other site", how come Hannover doesn’t provide a link to my post on the "other site", which consists of much more than the photographs presented in that post? Is he afraid that someone might learn about the arguments and evidence in the context of which those photos were shown? Does Revisionist "truth" have secrets that Hannover wishes to withhold from other Revisionists?
Hannover wrote:Here are examples with comments that were made about them:
Said comments are from Hannover’s alter ego on the "other site", so I’ll respond to them as being Hannover’s.
Hannover wrote:On one hand Roberto and the "Holocau$t Industry" say that the German made all the alleged Jew remains magically disappear, then they turn around and present faked photos of alleged remains they previously claimed were disappeared. :lol:
But then that's what happens when they try to defend the impossible. :lol:
Utter nonsense, as usual. The Germans didn’t make the corpses of those they killed at Ponary "magically disappear", and no one claims that they did. They reduced most (but not all) of the corpses to cremation remains by open-air incineration. Some corpses, not reduced to cremation remains, were found by a Soviet investigation commission, which exhumed such corpses (if buried, see below) and took photographs of exhumed corpses (and apparently also of other corpses, see below). Some of the photos taken by that commission (probably not all) are publicly available in Yad Vashem’s online photo archive. And while Hannover yells "fake" whenever confronted with any photograph captioned as showing crimes committed by Nazi Germany during World War II, I still have to see him demonstrate that any photo he called a "fake" in our discussions is actually a fake.

[Skip pointless rhetorical phrase.]
Hannover wrote:Classic Roberto's use of faked & remarked communist / Zionist propaganda photos of who knows where? who knows when? by who knows who?, and some are just piles of clothing that they hope will go unnoticed.
Regarding the "faked" claim see above, and the same goes for the "remarked" claim.

As to the "communist / Zionist propaganda" thing, I didn’t know the Communists had anything to do with Zionism.

As to the where, when and by whom, rare (if existing at all) is the photograph that provides such information all by itself, without knowledge of its provenance and context, namely testimonies and/or official reports stating where, when and by whom the photo was taken. So "Hannover"’s argument is not exactly a pertinent one. The captions of the photographs shown by "Hannover" suggest that these photographs are part of a report about the investigations at the Ponary killing site by the Soviet commission that conducted such investigations.

As to the "piles of clothing", such are visible on just one of the photos shown in my response to "Hannover"’s OP, which is expressly captioned as showing "scattered clothing at the execution site". For some reason "Hannover" omitted this photo in his "presentation" (as he also omitted other photos I showed, including the most interesting ones – see below).
Hannover wrote:Then compare the fake sites in those dodgy 'photos' below to the alleged Ponary mass grave for 100,000, here:
Image :lol:
Completely different sites.
So Hannover thinks he can tell that a single photo of a former burial pit as it looks now and photos of exhumations back in 1944 were taken at "completely different sites"? Wow! :lol:

Now, first of all, this photo

Image

is not captioned as showing the mass grave at Ponary. It shows one of several former graves, which are currently seen as circular pits sloping towards a kind of monument, a circle made of stones around a part of the ground. The graves’ appearance today is not what it was during the time when Ponary was a killing site as they are covered up, but the slope leading down to the aforementioned circular monument is reminiscent of the aspect of these pits while Ponary was in operation and at the time of the Soviet investigation. The graves’ original depth was five to six meters according to one bystander witness, a Wehrmacht soldier by the name of Pflüger, who testified before judicial authorities of the German Federal Republic on 18.6.1959 (207 AR-Z 14/58, p. 1683 ff.). According to other information, the graves (which were originally meant to be fuel storage deposits by the Soviets, who made them) were up to 8 meters deep. The diameter of these graves was about 15-20 meters according to Pflüger, which seems to be fairly correct judging by the diameter of this former grave (one of three such circular pits currently visible on the Ponary site, and obviously another than the one shown above):

Image

A brochure about Ponary in Polish, Lithuanian and English, authored by Prof. Piotr Niwiński, University of Gdańsk, mentions that in early 1941, for the purpose of liquid fuel storage, the Soviets started making seven pits with a surface diameter of 27 to 39, "about 8 meters at the bottom and a depth of over five meters", which were to be cased with hewn stone and covered with metal sheets. Between the pits there were trenches for pipes meant to connect the intended fuel tanks. Only a part of this work was finished at the time of the German invasion. Nevertheless, the Soviet-made pits came in handy for using the site as a place of mass killing.

Besides the Soviet-made pits, according to Niwiński, there were also other graves dug by the Germans themselves. The accuracy of this information is suggested by the aspect of the soil in the "silent forest of Paneriai". Note the alternately rising and sinking shape of the soil, which suggests that excavations took place there. Uneven soil suggesting excavations if also visible on this photo.

Image

Image
Hannover wrote:See much more at:
Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11
Hannover’s alter ego "Lily" provided a dead link, obviously meant to lead to the other party of this monologue. :lol:
Hannover wrote:But hey, this is all that Roberto can conjure.
If Hannover were as confident of his Revisionist canon as he claims to be, my posts wouldn’t be censored. Neither would Hannover’s "Lily" character make a fuss about conveniently cherry-picked parts of my censored reply to Hannover’s OP on this thread. And neither would Hannover conceal the link under which said reply can be found. As it is, Hannover’s behavior shows that he knows his Revisionist canon to be a load of nonsense.
Hannover wrote:ex.:
pile of clothing here: :lol:
Image
Hannover must have a problem with his eyesight, at least when posting on the forbidden "other site" as "Lily". Human limbs are clearly visible on the photo. Note that the photo was taken in a circular pit with sloped upper sides, which is what the Soviet-made Ponary pits looked like on a photo from Ponary’s operational phase that Hannover conveniently omitted, and what the covered-up pits look like now. The comparatively low depth at which these corpses seem to have been found (looks like 2-3 meters to me, while the circular pits were at least five meters deep according to Pflüger) suggests that they were dumped in the pit after the incineration of the exhumed corpses had been completed.
Hannover wrote:open field here, not Ponar: :lol:
Image
That is not necessarily so, as the rather large circular pits obviously didn’t have any trees on them while excavations took place, and one cannot tell from the photo whether or not there are trees in the parts not covered by the camera eye, especially at the spot from which the photo was taken. Hannover’s comment is interesting, however, in that it suggests his having a very clear idea of what he thinks Ponary was and looked like in 1944. So Hannover, please tell us:

1. What was Ponary between 1941 and 1944, in your book?

2. What did Ponary look like in 1944 according to that book?
Hannover wrote:laughable cut & paste of various pieces here, none with provenance :lol:
Image
Source is stated as being the Borowicz Collection. Soil seems to be sandy, so it could be Ponary. The "cut & paste" is unsubstantiated, thus irrelevant.
Hannover wrote:apparent fire victims from somewhere, not Ponar :lol:
Image
Fire victims? I guess you have to be Hannover to see that (especially as concerns the corpse on the right of the photo), and if there were traces of burning, they could be explained as being due to some of the incinerated corpses having been very incompletely burned, which is quite possible considering that, according to Niwiński, the Germans didn’t manage to finish the mass incineration job because their labor force had escaped by mid-April 1944. Besides, executions at Ponary took place until early July 1944 according to the same author (about 4,000 prison inmates were killed on 3-4 July, less than two weeks before the Red Army retook Vilnius, which is in line with the corpses’ aspect suggesting a state of decomposition that was not yet very advanced.

Further photos that I showed in my response to Hannover's OP suggest that some of the victims of the last killings at Ponary were only superficially buried, or not buried at all:

Image
Item ID 25070
Title Ponary, Poland, Bodies of victims that were massacred near the barbed wire fence.
Archival Signature 1798/6
Name of submitter Yad Vashem Archives
Source Yad Vashem Archives
Credit Yad Vashem
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland


Image
Item ID 33
Title Ponary, Poland, Corpses of murdered people.
Archival Signature 2074/7
Name of submitter גברת מ. קאטשרגינסקי
Credit Yad Vashem Places <>,<>,<>,Poland
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland


Image
Item ID 30884
Title Ponary, Poland, Bodies of the victims that were massacred there.
Archival Signature 1798/14
Name of submitter Yad Vashem Archives
Source Yad Vashem Archives
Credit Yad Vashem
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland


Image
Item ID 3112
Title Ponary, Poland, Corpses of Russian POWs.
Archival Signature 2074/45
Name of submitter Mrs Katsherginski
Credit Yad Vashem
Places <>,<>,<>,Poland
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland


Image
Item ID 1087
Title Ponary, Poland, Corpses.
Archival Signature 2074/8
Name of submitter Mrs Katsharginski
Credit Yad Vashem
Places <>,<>,<>,Poland
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland

Hannover wrote:no bodies, just clothing :lol:

Image
Again, "Hannover" seems to have a problem with his eyesight, as one can clearly see human shapes (with little or no clothing) at the bottom of the pit. Note that this pit doesn’t have sloped edges like the circular pits, suggesting that it was one of the pits dug later by the Germans, as mentioned by Niwiński.
Hannover wrote:"mass grave" with nothing in it :lol: :lol:

Image
What we see here is obviously one of the circular pits, before or during the first stages of excavation (the depth of the grave is clearly much lower than it was during killing operations according to Pflüger’s testimony and other information mentioned above). Note the differences in brightness between the bottom of the pit and its edges, the former being mostly darker than the latter. This may be related to exposure, but it may also be because the bottom consists of or contains cremation remains, including wood ashes, which would have been buried in the graves after cremation.
Hannover wrote:So there you go. Complete BS from Roberto and his Zionist comrades as usual.
As usual the only BS here is "Hannover"’s, and it’s by no means limited to the worn-out "Zionist" rhetoric (which wasn’t exactly a showpiece of wit to start with).
Hannover wrote:See what a real excavation looks like here:
Katyn facts: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn'
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=758
Apart from the photos shown there being part of a report (which the Soviet exhumation photos are probably as well) and including some close-ups, what exactly are the differences? Not long ago I showed another Revisionist over 70 photographs of dead bodies to make the point that it is impossible to photographically record the whole scale of a major mass crime (or even a significant part thereof), deliberately leaving out the captions and pointing out that some of the photos were captioned as showing victims of Nazi crimes while others were not. Hannover’s inevitable knee-jerk reaction was to proclaim that all these photos were "fakes". Some of these photos were from the 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn', so Hannover messed up again :lol:
Hannover wrote:And what crap does Roberto throw on the wall in the hope its will stick?
Easily debunked fakes, that's what.
Actually the only crap here is the "easily debunked fakes" babbling. Hannover hasn’t managed to demonstrate that any photo I showed is a fake.

And as I said, he left out the most interesting photos. I’m not referring to those again shown above or to those exhumation/excavation photos he conveniently omitted:

Image
Item ID 79149
Title Ponary, Poland, Doctors exhuming corpses.
Archival Signature 3380/147
Name of submitter Borowicz Collection
Source Borowicz Collection
Credit Yad Vashem
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland


Image
Item ID 76136
Title Ponary, Poland, Three corpses.
Archival Signature 3380/118
Name of submitter Borowicz Collection
Source Borowicz Collection
Credit Yad Vashem
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland


Image
Item ID 81416
Title Ponary, Poland, Scattered clothing at the execution site, 1941.
Archival Signature 2656/37
Name of submitter הועדה ההיסטורית ב- Glowna Komisia Poland
Source הועדה ההיסטורית, פולין,
Credit Yad Vashem Places Ponary Area,Murder Site,Poland


I’m referring to these photos:

Image
Item ID 22292
Title Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen leading Jews to the murder site in the forest, 1941.
Archival Signature A2725/22
Name of submitter Dr. Krakowski
Source Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
Credit Bundesarchiv
Places Ponary Area,Murder Site,Poland
Photographer Otto Schroff
This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


Image
Item ID 26903
Title Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen marching Jews, with their heads covered, to their deaths, 1941.
Related Collection Photos used in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust.
Archival Signature 4613/916
Name of submitter Moshe Shalvi
Source Encyclopedia of the Holocaust - Hebrew Edition 1990
Credit Yad Vashem
Places Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland
Photographer Otto Schroff
This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.


These photos, which are featured on pp. 40-41 show a part of Klee et al, Good Old Days, show a part of the procedures at Ponary. They were taken by a German serviceman, who testified to judicial authorities of the German Federal Republic about his observation and his taking of these photographs. Schroff’s testimony on 5.6.1959 (207 AR-Z 14/58, p. 1247 ff.), along with the testimonies Schroff’s comrades Pflüger (18.6.59, ibid, p. 1683 ff.) and Hamann (5.6.1959, ibid. P 1263), are quoted in translation on this page, after Klee et al, Good Old Days, pp. 38-45.
Hannover wrote:Well, did you see the alleged 100,000 corpses ... "70,000 Jews", & alleged "30,00' others"?
So Hannover thinks it is possible to show 100,000 corpses on photographs?

If so, maybe he can tell us how many photographs that would require, assuming that each photograph shows the maximum number of stiffs that can be captured by the camera eye.

And maybe he can tell us how many of the 4,143 corpses exhumed by the Nazis at Katyn one sees on photographs included in the 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn'.

Or how many corpses of German air-raid victims those shown on all related photographs that he can get hold of add up to.

Or how many corpses of German soldiers killed during World War II are shown on all photographs of such corpses.

Etc.

I submit that, if you took all existing photographs showing World War II stiffs, military or civilian, and added up the stiffs shown on all these photographs, you’d get a number in the order of 10,000 or so, out of at least 50 million military and civilian deaths during World War II.
Do this exercise, Hannover. Maybe it will then dawn on you how unreasonable (to put it politely) it is to demand that 100,000 Ponary stiffs (the highest estimate, there are also lower ones) be shown on photographs.

And as we’re at it, if an investigation as recorded in the 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn' is what it takes to prove a mass crime, what do you make of the Polish citizens killed by the Soviets in April-May 1940 at places other than Katyn (about 22,000 minus the ca. 4,000 Katyn stiffs)? There are no photographs of their corpses at all. Is that supposed to mean that they were not killed?

Same for the over 100,000 victims of the NKVD prison massacres. How many of these were photographed and/or filmed? Please provide a sourced figure or your best substantiated estimate.

And what about the at least about 700,000 victims of Stalin’s Great Purge in 1937/38? How many of these were photographed and/or filmed? Please provide a sourced figure or your best substantiated estimate.

I could go on and on.
Hannover wrote:If not, you are 'antisemitic'. :roll:
Rubbish.
Hannover wrote:Those who have invested so much of themselves in this scam will resort to anything in trying to fool the public.
Truth is irrelevant to them.
Why, that describes Revisionism and its proponents in a nutshell. The Revisionist scam hasn’t exactly been successful, however - obviously because it’s so patently nonsensical and bereft of any evidentiary support.
Hannover wrote:The money made, the money being made is enormous. Their delusions of supremacy give them a sense of entitlement to do whatever is in their best interests, regardless of who it hurts.
Whose "delusions of supremacy" exactly are you talking about? Revisionists seem to have such delusions themselves (along with others, assuming that they really believe in what they write).

That some people and organizations use the memory of the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews for somewhat-less-than-noble purposes, including financial gain, cannot be denied. And I’ll be the first to condemn such abuse. But it doesn’t change the facts established beyond a reasonable doubt in decades of criminal investigation and historical research. Normal Finkelstein, who coined the term "Holocaust Industry" that Hannover is so fond of using, professed no doubt about these facts as far as I know.

If Revisionists were smart, they would attack the abuse of Holocaust memory for financial and political gain. That would be a legitimate target, and attacking it would get them much support. But attacking the historical record of the Holocaust itself is just plain stupid. It plays into the hands of the very "Industry" they claim to be fighting, which is glad to have Revisionism as a bogeyman it can point to in order to justify its existence and its calls for donations. In other words, Revisionists are the "Industry"’s useful idiots. Which is why the "Industry", while claiming to fight Revisionism by all means, isn’t exactly interested in getting rid of it.
Hannover wrote:The public is awakening. The tide is turning.
That sounds like a prayer, or a mantra you constantly repeat in a vain attempt to convince yourself of something you don’t really believe in.

As to the public: if it had not yet realized that Revisionism is garbage, it would awaken to that realization when looking at the laughably far-fetched claims (especially Hannover's "all lies" or "all fakes" knee-jerk reactions whenever confronted with evidence of Nazi crimes during World War II, which has even alienated more reasonable Revisionists), silly and repetitive rhetorical expressions (such as "Zionists" and "Industry's so-and-so"), mutual backslapping and obvious censorship of opposition that make a mockery of the "open debate" this forum is supposed to stand for. Do you really expect to attract lurkers and fence-sitters to Revisionism by going on like that?

Well, maybe you have long given up on that hope. Maybe you have realized that Revisionism is condemned to never being anything more than an exchange of nonsensical claims within a fringe group of like-minded, ideologically motivated fanatics. That would be a reasonable conclusion of yours, for a change.

As to your moronic custom signature (especially the pathetic demand to be "SHOWN" the remains of tens or hundreds of thousands of murdered people, as if it were technically possible to show such quantities of human remains on photos or in film footage), I have addressed that often enough, and may address it again in a new thread that I’m sure you’ll run away from. For now I’ll leave you to think a little, in case you are able and willing to do that.

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:58 pm
by Roberto
Censored CODOH post # 151

CODOH thread Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

The "disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto
Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of
100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. ditto.
Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:29 am
refers either to the post reproduced below, addressed to "borjastick", or to my (also censored) reply to "Hannover"'s subsequent post. Either way it requires no comment, as all that could be said about it has been said before. My PDF of the "notifications" page ends here. Next time I look up CODOH (to which I currently have no access), I'll see if there was a further "disapproval" notification regarding this thread.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
borjastick wrote:Yes I see different pictures taken at different locations at different times, and a maximum of about twenty corpses in each. Hmm 99900 to go then Roberto...

Apart from that it's a winner.
So you think it is possible to show 100,000 corpses on photographs?

If so, maybe you can tell us how many photographs that would require, assuming that each photograph shows the maximum number of stiffs that can be captured by the camera eye.

And maybe you can tell us how many of the 4,143 corpses exhumed by the Nazis at Katyn one sees on photographs included in the 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn'.

Or how many corpses of German air-raid victims those shown on all related photographs that you can get hold of add up to.

Or how many corpses of German soldiers killed during World War II are shown on all photographs of such corpses.

Etc.

I submit that, if you took all existing photographs showing World War II stiffs, military or civilian, and added up the stiffs shown on all these photographs, you’d get a number in the order of 10,000 or so, out of at least 50 million military and civilian deaths during World War II.
Do this exercise, borjastick. Maybe it will then dawn on you how unreasonable (to put it politely) it is to demand that 100,000 Ponary stiffs (the highest estimate, there are also lower ones) be shown on photographs.

And as we’re at it, if an investigation as recorded in the 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn' is what it takes to prove a mass crime, what do you make of the Polish citizens killed by the Soviets in April-May 1940 at places other than Katyn (about 22,000 minus the ca. 4,000 Katyn stiffs)? There are no photographs of their corpses at all, as far as I know. Is that supposed to mean that they were not killed?

Same for the over 100,000 victims of the NKVD prison massacres. How many of these were photographed and/or filmed? Please provide a sourced figure or your best substantiated estimate.

And what about the at least about 700,000 victims of Stalin’s Great Purge in 1937/38? How many of these were photographed and/or filmed? Please provide a sourced figure or your best substantiated estimate.

I could go on and on.
Censored CODOH post # 152

"Disapproval" notification: see under # 151.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:More bizarre photos from paid Zionist propagandist, Roberto Muehlenkamp.
:lol:

So now I'm even "paid"? "Hannover" is even more delusional than I thought. In fact, he seems to be delirious.
Hannover wrote:More examples of: 'Trust us, we're Zionists' fakes.
More examples of moronic claims of "fakes" that Hannover cannot demonstrate to be "fakes", actually.
Hannover wrote:Image

Notice that the surroundings do not resemble the alleged mass burial site, see OP.
The OP shows a single grave at Ponary, one out of three, as it looks today. It doesn’t show any overall view of the Ponary site, let alone a view of that site as it looked in 1944. So how can Hannover tell that the photo above doesn’t show a scene from Ponary? Does he have divining powers? Did little birdie tell him so?
Hannover wrote:So why are these 'victims of Germans' not buried, hidden from view, made to disappear?
Probably because there was no longer any time to do so, as the execution was performed shortly before the Soviet troops arrived. The last executions at Ponary (not of Jews as there were none anymore, but of non-Jewish prison inmates) took place on 3-4 July 1944. The Soviets had essentially retaken Vilnius by 13 July 1944. The killers were understandably in a hurry to get away, and no longer thought of burying the bodies. Such also happened elsewhere. At a prison in Rostov, Russia, for instance. And in the Lublin Castle prison in Poland. And at the Sonnenburg prison near Küstrin (many of those killed were Luxembourgers who had been forcibly recruited into the Wehrmacht and deserted; they are commemorated in Luxembourg to this day). Google "for the atrocities committed by german-fascists in the ussr" to view the photos and read about the background of these photos.
Hannover wrote:The Zionist lie about Ponar is that 100,000 were dumped into a mass gave. That's 100,000 !
There is no such thing as a "Zionist lie about Ponar", but "Hannover"’s allegation that the bodies of those killed at Ponary are claimed to have been dumped into a single mass grave is a lie. "Hannover" knows very well (from my response to his OP and my response to his second post on this thread) that the bodies were dumped into several mass graves. At least three of them quite big, as they were pits dug by the Soviets meant to be fuel deposits, prior to the German invasion.
Hannover wrote:The laughable & impossible 'holocau$t' storyline claims that the Germans hid / magically disappeared all the corpses.
Another lie, or then Hannover again doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Nobody claims that the Germans "magically disappeared all the corpses". Even at places where the corpse were cremated they left a lot of traces behind, cremation remains and incompletely burned corpses or parts of corpses. And it is well known that cremation by no means happened at all German killing sites. Mass graves pertaining to massacres by mobile killing units in the USSR were found full of decomposed or decomposing corpses that had not been burned. And at some sites the Germans didn’t even have the time to bury the corpses, or didn’t care to do so. Civilians massacred in the course of anti-partisan operations in Belarus, or their remains after they had been burned alive together with the wooden houses in which they lived or a local barn or church, seem to have just been left lying around. There is even a recorded complaint by a high-ranking German official to a higher-ranking official about this.
Hannover wrote:But yet panic stricken Roberto produces picture which contradict the very story line he tries to promote. :lol:
Actually Hannover is the one who comes across as panic-stricken, for that is what becomes apparent from his ever more nonsensical verbiage and the hysterical giggling that accompanies his ignorant and/or mendacious remarks. I for my part can assure Hannover that I’m cool as a cucumber, even enjoying the debunking of his primitive nonsense.
Hannover wrote: Image
Image
Israel's Yad Vashem says:
Title Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen leading Jews to the murder site in the forest, 1941.
This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.
Hannover is so confused that he got one of the photos wrong. Or then he is lying again.

The upper photo, the one that shows a line of corpses, is not attributed to Otto Schroff. Neither did I claim it was. The photo probably shows victims of last-minute executions by the Germans before leaving Ponary, which were found by the Soviets arriving soon afterward.

The lower photo, which shows a part of the procedure by which Jews and other "delinquents" were killed in 1941, was indeed taken by Otto Schroff, a bookkeeper in the 96th Infanty Division of the Wehrmacht. But the caption on the Yad Vashem site did not originate with Yad Vashem. It comes from a deposition by Schroff before criminal justice authorities of the German Federal Republic in June 1959 and is shown, along with other photos and a quote of Schroff’s deposition in which he described the scene he had witnessed and the photographs he had taken, in the document collection "Schöne Zeiten": Der Judenmord aus der Sicht der Täter und Gaffer, edited by Ernst Klee, Willi Dreßen (a former prosecutor of the German Federal Republic’s Central Office for the Prosecution of Nazi crimes) and Volker Rieß, which was translated into English as The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders. The translation can be bought via Amazon. The translated testimonies of Schroff and two other Wehrmacht soldiers from the same unit who witnessed mass killing at Ponary (a driver named Pflüger and a co-driver named Hamann) can be found on pp. 38 – 45 of my copy of this book, and the photos taken by Schroff, which are obviously included in the prosecution office’s file containing his deposition, are shown on pp. 40-41 of that book.

Of course Hannover knows the history of these photos’ provenance. I wrote about it in my previous post responding to Hannover on this thread, and IIRC also in my response to Hannover’s OP.
Hannover wrote:But the storyline says that 'exterminations' were top secret operations, no records allowed; but now we're told that countless Germans simply disobeyed orders and took photos galore. :lol:
The supposed "storyline" does not exist outside the fantasies of Hannover, whose hysterical giggling is again duly noted. The unpleasant fact that German soldiers and other onlookers witnessed mass executions, and sometimes took photographs thereof, was made public by Klee et al as far back as 1988. There were complaints about such practices by Wehrmacht commanders and instructions to refrain from taking photos of executions, suggesting that this had become a general problem. Even the killers themselves sometimes took photos of what they had done and showed them to their families and/or friends. One of them, Max Taubner, was even subjected to a criminal procedure (also mentioned by Klee et al) for having done that. All this has been known for so long that it speaks volumes about Hannover’s ignorance (or bad faith) that be pretends to know nothing about it.
Hannover wrote:How do we know they were killed?

How do we know they were Jews?
From the testimonies of Pflüger, Hamann and Schroff, and from German documents (two Operational Situation Reports and the Jäger Report) that mention mass killings of Vilnius Jews. The two OSR’s were mentioned in my response to Hannover’s OP, where I also showed a facsimile of the Jäger Report. The earlier of the OSR’s, nr. 21, speaks of 500 Jews and other undesirables being liquidated every day. It refers to the period before Jäger’s Einsatzkommando 3 took over the Vilnius area from Einsatzkommando 9. The Jäger Report in turn mentions the killing of several ten thousand Vilnius Jews (I haven’t yet done the exact adding, but this is what I estimate the daily figures should add up to) until 1 December 1941, the date of the report. Additional evidence about mass killings at Ponary comes from eyewitness testimonies by Lithuanians quoted in a brochure in Lithuanian, Polish and English written by Polish scholar Niwiński, which I also referred and linked to in my response to Hannover’s OP and in my response to Hannover’s next post on this thread. And from the Ponary Diary of Kazimierz Sakowicz, also mentioned in my response to Hannover’s OP.
Hannover wrote:So where are these additional 400 corpses? They claim to know the exact site.
Knowing the site and witnessing mass killing at this site was one thing, taking photographs of the procedures from start to finish as well as the stiffs was another. Schroff obviously didn’t feel sufficiently safe to take more than those two pictures he took. And photographing the stiffs would have required his entering or standing on the edge of the mass grave, which would hardly have been allowed by the killers. So Hannover’s question is a no-brainer, like so many others. An better question would be what, if not the preliminaries of an execution in batches of ten, Schroff’s photos are supposed to be showing. A close-up of one of the photos, which Hannover didn’t show:

Image

even reveals that the individuals being taken to what Hannover claims was not the place where they would be killed (where else then, Hannover?) were hooded. Why the hooding, Hannover?
Hannover wrote: Image

Another alleged mass grave at Ponar.
Nope, I didn’t allege that this specific depression was a former grave, though it may well have been part of one such grave. My argument was that the uneven nature of the soil in the forest suggests excavation, which in turn suggests the presence of further graves (also mentioned by Niwiński) besides the circular ones, now of course covered up, that can be seen (or some of which can be seen) on the site today according to this page, which contains quotes of Pflüger’s, Hamann’s and Schroff’s testimonies as translated in The Good Old Days (which I also referred to in my) OP. One other of those circular mass graves (another than the one shown in Hannover’s OP) can be viewed here (the photo is part of the Wikipedia page about Ponary.

But wait, didn’t Hannover write above that the victims of mass killings at Ponary are claimed to have been dumped into a single mass grave? Now here’s he’s writing about another "alleged" mass grave. Hannover managed to contradict himself in one and the same post, which indicates his being quite confused and, to use one of his self-projecting expressions, desperate.
Hannover wrote:Simple, two guys with shovels could solve the entire matter. But nope, no digging allowed there.
Digging is not allowed at any monument site, be it a site of mass killing by the Nazis or the Soviets (do you think it’s allowed to dig at the Katyn memorial site, Hannover?), a monument to war victims (do you think, Hannover, that it’s allowed to dig at Arlington National Cemetery, at a cemetery from the American Civil War or at a cemetery holding German soldiers killed in World War I or World War II?) or any other monument to victims or human catastrophes. So the second sentence of the above-quoted paragraph is another no-brainer.

The same applies to the first sentence, which suggests that Hannover doesn't know anything about excavations of mass grave sites (which require a larger labour force besides supervising criminal investigators, forensic anthropologists or archaeologists).

However if Hannover believes that it takes just "two guys with shovels" to dig up a former mass grave and see what is there, what’s keeping him from going there with another Revisionist digger and do some digging? I’ll be glad to come along to photograph and film such endeavor. In fact, I have posted a challenge/invitation to Hannover in this sense.

Hannover need not be afraid of laws against Holocaust denial in Lithuania, for its unlikely that anyone there ever heard of him (especially as he only posts under an alias), and besides Lithuanian authorities could only take any measures against him based on laws against Holocaust denial if he should commit an act of public denial on Lithuanian soil. Digging up a mass grave would not be such act – Hannover and his digging companion are likely to be considered robbery diggers/looters if they should be caught. And getting caught at Ponary is unlikely, because the site is not guarded as far as I know. There is a museum there, but it’s closed on Sundays, and it's highly unlikely that there will be anybody around the place at Sunday, especially as its location is quite remote.

So what is Hannover waiting for to go to Ponary on a Sunday and do the digging he claims would "solve the matter"?

Financing the trip should also be no problem, as it should be easy to find a rich Revisionist (for instance the father of a Revisionist lady who used to participate in my discussions with Greg Gerdes on the VNN forum, and who was supposed to meet me at Sobibór along with Gerdes on 15.10.2008 – she claimed to be from a well-to-do family that could even afford her travelling with bodyguards).

So again, Hannover, what are you waiting for to do the digging you clamor for?
Hannover wrote:Roberto has not and cannot show us any actual excavations at Ponar, not one.
Actually I have shown photos of Soviet excavations/exhumations at Ponary, which Hannover even copied and made a fuss about in one of his posts on this thread. But even if there were no such photos, that would be highly irrelevant. There are no photos regarding a great many mass crimes in history, including the overwhelming majority of Soviet crimes (which I’m sure Hannover has no doubt about ). So what? (Actually there is far more photographic documentation regarding Nazi crimes during World War II than there is regarding Soviet crimes, but that’s another story.)
Hannover wrote:He cannot show us 100,000 corpses that are alleged to be there.
First of all, most of the corpses "alleged to be there" are there as cremation remains, which are rather difficult to show on photographs (I presume that by "show" you mean "visual material only"; if you should also accept other documentary as well as eyewitness testimonies, like historians and legit courts of justice in democratic states do, please let me know).

Second, the "show us 100,000 corpses" is another no-brainer, unless you can explain how one is supposed to "show" 100,000 corpses on photographs. Just how many photographs would that require, assuming that every photograph shows the largest number of corpses you can show to be visible on any photograph (regardless of the context of that photograph)? Let’s assume it is 100 stiffs, though I don’t know of many photographs on which you can see that many (or more) stiffs together. So showing 100,000 stiffs, assuming that all of them had been unearthed (and placed exactly where, Hannover?) would take 1,000 photographs.

Do you know of any collection of 1,000 photographs that shows 100,000 stiffs, Hannover? Moreover at a specific place and pertaining to specific events at that place?

I don’t. In fact, I submit that if one were to add all stiffs portrayed on all photographs in existence showing stiffs from World War II, military or civilian, one would arrive at a low five-digit figure of pictured stiffs at most. Do the exercise, Hannover. Collect all photographs of World War II stiffs you can find, on the internet or elsewhere. Then add up the stiffs and tell me the number. Maybe you will then realize just how idiotic your demand to be "shown" 100,000 stiffs is.

Documenting mass crimes and other historical events is not done by photographing all the stiffs, even where (as is rarely the case) all stiffs are exhumed. It is done on hand of whatever evidence is available, including documents, demographic data (in case of mass killings so large as to have demographic impact, even if only at a local level), eyewitness testimonies and perhaps (but not necessarily) excavation/exhumation reports and photographs illustrating such reports.

That applies even to the German Katyn investigation you proclaim to be the standard that must be met to prove a mass crime (Uncle Joe Stalin, who you thus reduce to a mass murderer of mere Pinochet format, would be very grateful to you for that). Add up all the stiffs shown on photos included in the "Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn", and then tell me how many of the 4,143 stiffs exhumed by the Germans at Katyn you see on all these photographs together (assuming that no two or more photographs show the same stiffs).
Hannover wrote:Roberto cannot show us an official, verifiable forensic report on any excavation at Ponar, but he does show corpses which contradict the impossible 'holocau$t' narrative
Photos of people killed by Germans during World War II who were not buried and/or cremated may contradict what Hannover would like the "'holocau$t' narrative" to be, but they do not contradict the actual, well-substantiated and generally accepted narrative of crimes committed by Nazi Germany and its European allies during World War II, including but not limited to the genocide of Europe’s Jews. About that actual narrative Hannover seems to know precious little, if you give him the benefit of assuming that he’s not just lying.

As to the "official, verifiable forensic report" about the Soviet investigations at Ponary, there is no reason to doubt that such report exists in Russian archives. Just because it’s not available on the internet and cannot be shown on the fly by a poster on a discussion forum doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. As we’re at it, how about a joint trip to the GARF in Moscow, Hannover? I don’t think they send anything by post or e-mail, but if we go there and ask nicely for what we want they may seek it out for us and even allow us to take copies. And if they tell us they cannot find a report about Ponary, you will have scored a point. Are you game for such undertaking, Hannover?

And as we’re at it, what’s the Revisionist narrative of what happened to the "alleged" victims of Nazi crimes during World War II? Is there any? And if so, what is it, and what evidence is there to support it? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Hannover wrote:The corpses he does show are laughably labeled by Zionists / Communists to mean whatever they want, with no proof that they are Jews, no proof that they are from WWII, no proof that the Germans are responsible, all of which are easily seen to be from sites which do not even resemble Ponar.
The "labeled by Zionists / Communists to mean whatever they want" remains unsubstantiated nonsense.

The "no proof that they are Jews, no proof that they are from WWII, no proof that the Germans are responsible" is a ridiculous no-brainer.

How do expect a photo alone to provide "proof that they are Jews"? By showing that the male stiffs have circumcised penises? To the extent that such close-up photographs could be taken (which would require fresh as opposed to decomposed bodies let alone skeletons), they wouldn’t prove the victims’ ethnicity (they might as well be Muslims, like some of the "Asiatics" among Soviet POWs that the Nazis executed before they realized that it was counterproductive).

How do you expect a photo of stiffs from a mass grave alone to prove that it was taken during World War II, and that the Germans did the killing? Even if the photo showed someone in a German World War II uniform standing next to a heap of stiffs or shooting at people, the photo alone would not prove a World War II context and/or perpetration of the crime, but further evidence (documents and/or eyewitness testimonies) would be required.

As to the "easily seen to be from sites which do not even resemble Ponar", how do you know what the Ponary site looked like between 1941 inclusive and 1944 inclusive? From a single photograph showing a circular mass grave as it looks now? If so, you must have divining powers, or then a little birdie that whispers into your ear.

As we’re at it, what is Ponary supposed to have been between 1941 and 1944, in the Revisionist book?

And what’s the evidence that it was that?

Inquiring minds would like to know.
Hannover wrote:This is too easy.
You mean debunking your nonsense? That’s a piece of cake indeed.
Hannover wrote: Roberto Proof:
'Hey, I have a Big Foot in my garage!
Trust me, I have a garage.'
Utter nonsense as concerns the proof of Nazi mass crimes I have presented, but entirely appropriate as concerns Hannover’s conspiracy theories about a monstrous, monumental and yet invisible fake-producing and evidence-manipulating conspiracy by those "Zionists" he sees in every corner. The pot is again calling the kettle black.

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:21 am
by Lily
Thanks to Roberto for admitting that he has dodged challenges at CODOH, 151 times. :lol:

It's no wonder that:
The impossible 'holocaust' storyline, falling apart faster than a cheap suit.
:lol:

Roberto obviously continues dodging the challenges at CODOH to show the world the alleged corpses at Ponary and the other places he hilariously claims there are massive Jew corpses buried. In the case of Ponary, the claims is 100,000 people supposedly buried there. :lol:
100,000 alleged people.

That's 10,000 more than the LA Coliseum can hold. :lol:

Image

And being that there is no dodging permitted at CODOH*, his embarassing posting of fake communist, Zionist contrivances and mislabellings are rejected ....because even those do not show us the massive human remains of 100,000 that he alleges. :lol:

* Per guidelines Roberto agreed to. :lol:

So, comrade Roberto, show us the excavated alleged mass graves for 100,000. :lol:

Image
"Mass grave in Ponar" :lol:
also see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _Ponar.JPG

Two guys with a shovel is all it would take. :lol:

Roberto:
'Hey, I have a Big Foot in may garage!
Trust me, I have a garage.'
:lol:

Roberto has been slapped silly with his non-existent 'Holocau$t' remains:

The Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp posts more fake 'holocaust' photos / Babi Yar
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11315
and:
The Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp's 'corpse hauling Treblinka excavator' / Seriously?
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11262
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp and 'The Industry' say millions of Jew bones were ground up in 'bone mill'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11263
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp & 'Holocaust' Industry cite incinerator patent application as proof of impossible cremation numbers
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11266
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11277
and:
Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp cites debunked liar Henryk Tauber as proof of Auschwitz 'gas chambers' !!
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11279
and:
spokesman Roberto Muehlenkamp says "confessions" of Kurt Gerstein proves 'holocaust' / seriously?
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11282
and:
Holocaust Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp says "eyewitness" Bendel is proof of 'holocaust'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11297
and:
'Holocaust Industy's' Roberto Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !!
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11271
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp debunked on Sobibor again, this time by Thomas Kues.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11284
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp & his Holocaust Industry say "eyewitness" Bennahmias is proof of 'holocaust' / Yes they do.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11308
and:
Carlo Mattogno demolishes Roberto 'sardine pack' Muehlenkamp & those like him.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11322
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp claims 'Heinrich May Report on Chelmno' / So let's see it.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11324
and:
Roberto Muehlenkamp & the Indu$try's bizarre photo claim of alleged massive Chelmno human remains
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11333
and:
"Holocaust Industry's" Roberto Muehlenkamp sees thousands of dead Jews where there are none at Semeliškes[/b] :lol:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11344
and:
Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania[/b] :lol:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11345
and:
note to Roberto on claimed 'Hydrokop' report
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11230
and:
Paid 'holocaust' Enforcer & Promoter Roberto Muehlenkamp believes liar Filip Mueller proves the 'holocau$t'
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11350

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:14 pm
by Greg Gerdes
Roberto:


There is no such thing as a "Zionist lie about Ponar."

The bodies were dumped into several mass graves. At least three of them quite big.

Nobody claims that the Germans "magically disappeared" all the corpses,

they left a lot of traces behind,

cremation remains and incompletely burned corpses or parts of corpses.

The six graves mentioned in the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ymAxQjLKmM

may thus have been three "walkthrough" pits and three shooting pits, only the latter being actual graves. It is also possible, however, that the "walkthrough" pits were also used as graves at a later stage (implying a change of the initial killing procedure),

so that there would have been six graves in total.

How many people would fit into each grave? Wehrmacht driver Pflüger estimated the pits’ diameter at 15 to 20 meters, which would mean a radius of 7.5 – 10 meters. The area of the pit would thus be A = π x r², i.e. 176.71 to 314.16 m². If the pits were 5 to 6 meters deep, the volume of each would be ca. 884 m³ to ca. 1,885 m³. As the pits were obviously sloped due to the sandy soil, the volume available for burial would be less than the calculated volume. According to Alex Bay’s calculations, the usable volume of a rectangular pit with the measurements 50 x 25 x 10 meters (= 12,500 m³) is only 8,502 m³ (roughly 68 % of the product of length x width x depth). A round pit’s walls may be more stable than those of a rectangular pit, but let’s assume for good measure that the usable volume of each burial pit at Ponary was only about 68 % of the calculated volume, i.e. about 601 to about 1,282 cubic meters. Bay estimates that at least 100,000 people, including a large proportion of women and children, would fit into 8,502 m³ of burial space – a concentration of ca. 11.76 corpses per cubic meter. At this concentration, each of the circular burial pits at Ponary could hold 7,068 to 15,076 corpses, three such pits could hold 21,204 to 45,228 corpses, and 6 such pits could hold 42,408 to 90,456 corpses. Given the aforementioned information whereby the pits may have had a larger area and also been deeper than here assumed, and that the degree of volume loss due to sloping was probably less than I considered for good measure, these estimates must be regarded as conservative.

...

I posted photos which, together with German documents and largely German eyewitness testimonies (the latter two being the essential evidence, the photographs being mere illustrations of what becomes apparent from the other evidence), constitute proof of the fact that Ponary near Vilnius was a site of mass murder at which tens of thousands of people were killed.

...

The Germans didn’t make the corpses of those they killed at Ponary "magically disappear."


I, Roberto Muehlenkamp,

am so confident that the Ponary holocaust happened as I allege,

that I am willing to bet __?__

that I can prove,

with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts,

that the remains of no less than __?__ people

currently lie in no less than six graves at the site.

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:26 pm
by Lily
Greg, you'll love this :

"Holocau$t Industry's" Roberto Muehlenkamp thoroughly embarrassed on fake 'eyewitness' 'Shlomo Venezia' by Carlo Mattogno
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11381

No wonder he dodges.

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:48 pm
by aemathisphd
Lily wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:26 pm
Greg, you'll love this :

"Holocau$t Industry's" Roberto Muehlenkamp thoroughly embarrassed on fake 'eyewitness' 'Shlomo Venezia' by Carlo Mattogno
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11381

No wonder he dodges.
:roll:

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:55 am
by Balsamo
Well, Mattogno is not getting better...

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:56 am
by Lily
CODOH routs Zionist Andrew Mathis.

Anyone can simply look at the threads here where Andrew Mathis, aka: Thames Darwin has posted, some examples of the beat down:

Alleged & laughable "mass graves" according to T. Darwin / Andrew Mathis
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9414

'Andrew Mathis on Dachau, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Treblinka'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9228

Mathis who also posts as 'Thames Darwin', gets shot down:
Anecdotal evidence & "holocaust survivors"
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9238

holocaust' denial article by Andrew Mathis debunked here'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2816

'Prof. Mc Nally dissects HHP's Andrew Mathis' bogus article'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=284

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis on Zyklon scent removal'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2499

'Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267

'Believer org. spokesman, Andrew Mathis, demolished in debate'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=254

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis attempts damage control'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2498

'Email from Andrew Mathis (The Holocaust History Project)'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1526

'holocaust' History Project to unveil section on Treblinka'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=280
and:
Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11345

Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:46 pm
by Depth Check
Lily, stop baiting aemathisphd. If you have evidence he actually is a Zionist please create a new topic in Siberian Exile and share your Intel with the rest of the world.

Image