Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

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Roberto
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:09 pm

Greg Gerdes continues avoiding his homework (another task added given his persistent refusal to address the others).

Until GG he has done all his homework tasks, ignore continues. Principles are principles.

GG can spam his multi-colored, multi-sized, self-projecting and hysterical hollering until he has turned RODOH into a cesspit and given everyone looking up this forum the (not wholly unwarranted) impression the "Revisionism" is a realm of moronic and exhaustingly boring monomaniacs. This exercise in "Revisionist" self-destruction I will be glad to watch. If GG were a plant sent here by someone to make "Revisionism" look like shit, he couldn’t be doing a better job.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Greg Gerdes
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Greg Gerdes » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:49 pm

11th time DULLusionalism's finest has dodge these 5 simple questions:

Roberto:

Now, first of all, this photo


Image

is not captioned as showing the mass grave at Ponary. It shows one of several former graves... Besides the Soviet-made pits... there were also other graves dug by the Germans themselves.

"Former graves"???


Well then Roberto:

#1 - Has it ever been claimed / alleged / insinuated in orthodox historiography and/or the media that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves at Ponary - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
#2 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves at Ponary - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
#3 - Is it reasonable to doubt that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves at Ponary - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
#4 - Has it ever been proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves at Ponary - Yes. - or - No. - ??

#5 - The MAXIMUM number of claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves at Ponary that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Roberto
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:51 am

"Lily" seems to have piped down, but a job once started must be finished, and vile censorship must be documented to the end.

Last censored CODOH post reproduced on this thread was nr. 123, so the next one is nr. 124. As Babi Yar still seems to be en vogue, I'll continue with the CODOH thread Excavation Result: No Enormous Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar.

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "!! Excavation Result: No Enormous
Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar !! ... of course"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. Is this
dodge no. 119, or 120? We've lost count. Answering
challenges with questions is a weak, illogical avoidance
tactic, see guidelines no corpses, no babi yar.
Comments:

1. It's amusing to see that my count of censored posts rattled the CODOH moderator's cage, as can be seen by his laughably dishonest attempt ("parroted" on RODOH by his alter ego "Lily") to make believe that all my listed censored posts (even those where the pretext for censorship was another) were "dodges". The moderator repeated that nonsense in several other "disapproval" notifications, until even he obviously realized that it was too silly.

2. As I have mentioned before, "challenges" to produce this-and-that evidence can only be "dodged" if they are reasonable.

Not responding to "challenges" that are unreasonable (such as producing a document that is not publicly available - even if one were to obtain a certified copy of such document from an archive, one would probably have to sign an undertaking to not publish that document without the respective archive's permission) is not "dodging".

Neither is not responding to "challenges" that are manifestly idiotic, such the ubiquitous "show me the so-and-so many (tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of) corpses" that "Hannover" likes to throw around so a to "justify" censorship by the moderator (obviously himself) on the pretext of "dodging".

The same goes for "challenges" to provide evidence that is known to be unavailable (such as challenges to "show" (all) excavated human remains where no excavation, or no excavation aimed at unearthing human remains, is known or has been claimed to have taken place). The latter does not apply, however, if the sustainability of the "challenged" poster's claims or position depends on such evidence being available (see below).

Demanding that a poster should back up claims that said poster never made, especially not in any CODOH discussion (as "Hannover"'s does in his "Muehlenkamp says that witness so-and-so if proof of this and that" threads) is also highly dishonest, so the "dodging" pretext for censorship is equally mendacious here.

Challenges to produce evidence are relevant, and not responding to them may be called "dodging", where a) the evidence requested is known or could be reasonably expected to be available in published sources (collections of primary sources, secondary sources with archival references to primary sources) if the "challenged" poster's claims or position were sustainable.

Case in point, my Challenge to Supporters of the Revisionist Transit Camp Theory. If the "transit camp" theory held water, published names of "transited" Jews would be easy to find on the internet, like names of Jews murdered at the supposed "transit camps" are easy to find in the Yad Vashem names database or the [http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/directory.html.de]database[/url] of the German Federal Archives' Gedenkbuch Opfer der Verfolgung der Juden unter der nationalsozialistischen Gewaltherrschaft in Deutschland 1933-1945.

Another relevant challenge is that who claims that a photo or other document is a "fake" (like "Hannover" does regarding every photo captioned as showing Nazi crimes, and also regarding other photos just in case) should substantiate such claim/accusation.

Yet another is that someone who made a fuss about the oh-so-ridiculous "ash pond" at Auschwitz, after being shown primary sources whereby cremation remains were dumped into the Vistula, provide primary sources supporting his "ash pond" act.

All these are relevant and reasonable challenges, and all are challenges that "Hannover" has dodged.

3. The post to which I responded in the censored post reproduced below didn't even contain a challenge to produce evidence. It contained claims regarding Babi Yar that I challenged by asking questions, to see if "Hannover" knew what he was talking about and could substantiate his claims. Asking pertinent questions is not a "weak, illogical avoidance tactic", but a legitimate means of challenging someone's claims. Failure to respond to such questions is what can be called a "weak, illogical avoidance tactic".

That said, here goes my reproduction of the first censored post on the CODOH thread Excavation Result: No Enormous Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar, nr. 124 of the overall count.
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:No surprise here, just old news for Revisionists.
The alleged human remains of 'tens of thousands of Jews at Babi Yar' (or whatever the number is these days) cannot be found because there was no 'mass extermination' as alleged, simple as that.
There are good reasons for the human remains of Jews and others massacred at Babi Yar not being currently detectable, and the documentary and eyewitness evidence regarding mass killings in the ravine is conclusive. Revisionist articles of faith regarding Babi Yar are old news indeed.
Hannover wrote:Of course, the detailed aerial photos at the time of the alleged action show nothing at all.
Like this one:
Image
also see:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/27-ape.pdf
p. 154 – 157
John Ball shows exactly one photo of the ravine or a sector thereof and surrounding areas (APE p. 154) and an enlargement of part of that photo (APE p. 155), and claims that "scars from vehicle traffic either on the grass and shrubs at the side of the Jewish cemetery or in the ravine where the bodies were supposedly burned on pyres" should be but are not visible.

"Hannover" points to Ball’s claims as if they were the holy gospel. S

So let’s ask him some questions.

1. Hannover, what exactly do you see on the air photo of Babi Yar and the partial enlargement thereof shown in Ball’s book?

2. What exactly do you think should be seen according to "allegations" regarding mass killing and body disposal at Babi Yar, and what (other than Ball’s say-so) is your assessment based on?

3. Can you please tell me who claimed that the bodies were burned on pyres at the place assumed by Ball and only at that place, as opposed to (also) at other places throughout the ravine where mass shooting had taken place? Please provide at least one sourced quote.

4. How does Ball substantiate his claim about what should be but is not seen? What comparative examples of what traces of vehicle traffic would look like, on an air photo taken from a similar height and with a similar resolution, does he provide?

5. What exactly is one supposed to see in the dark area that covers much of the photograph outside the ravine?

I’m looking forward to your answers to these questions. No dodging.
Hannover wrote:Below we read about tombstones from a regular cemetery that no one doubted. So What? That distraction is irrelevant.
Indeed, since no enormous remains as alleged were found, bizarre Zionists try to distract the reader with talk of 'tombstones', IOW, a desperate spin job in lieu of the lack of physical proof that would necessarily be there, IF the fraud was fact.
That calls for some more questions:

6. How is your "fraud" claim compatible with the conclusive documentary and eyewitness evidence that proves the facts of the Babi Yar mass killings, which I have listed on the "other site" that one is not supposed to link to here (I wonder why, considering that truth has no secrets)? Can you demonstrate that any of this evidence was manipulated in any way? If you so claim, where can one find this supposed demonstration?

7. What physical proof exactly should one expect to find, considering that a) the corpses of the mass killings’ victims were reduced to cremation remains in 1943, and b) the ravine was destroyed by a mudslide in 1961? And why should one expect to find such proof?

8. How do you explain the presence of tombstones in a place that was not a cemetery in which graves were marked by tombstones?
Hannover wrote:Besides the lack of human remains, the mentioned tombstones that were allegedly 'tossed into the pit' and recovered are not even shown.
So this is another all talk, double big bluff by the usual enemies of free speech.
I’d call that a non-sequitur conclusion, first of all because showing tombstones would have mere illustrative value and second because there’s no evidence whatsoever of "talk, double big bluff", outside hollow conspiracy theories.

And here are some more questions:

9. What "free speech" exactly are you talking about? CODOH "free speech"?

10. Who exactly are the enemies of such "free speech" supposed to be, and what evidence is supposed to show their enmity regarding such "free speech"?
Hannover wrote:also see:
'What Happened at Babi Yar?
Fact vs. Myth'
Using air photos and wartime newspapers, Ukrainian writer MICHAEL NIKIFORUK attacks a few myths about a wartime atrocity.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html
and:
' Babi Yar: Critical Questions and Comments'
http://codoh.com/library/document/920/?lang=en
and:
'Babi Yar 'massacre' debunked'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41
That’s more of the same junk, which I may address later lest this post gets too long. After you have answered my above questions.
Hannover wrote:Read on.
- Hannover
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/jew ... -babi-yar/
Jewish headstones found at Nazi massacre site of Babi Yar
Before murdering thousands of Jews in Ukraine, Nazis dumped headstones stolen from a cemetery according to researchers
Before murdering tens of thousands of Jews at Babi Yar near Kiev, Nazi troops dumped at the killing site dozens of Jewish headstones they had stolen from a Jewish cemetery, researchers in Ukraine discovered.
“The tombstones were removed from a local Jewish cemetery during the Holocaust and thrown into the same ravines where over 150,000 Jews, Roma people and Ukrainians were murdered during the Holocaust,” Marek Siwiec, a former Polish politician and current head of the Babi Yar Holocaust Memorial Centre, said in a statement earlier this week about the discovery.
Siwiec’s organisation extracted last month 50 headstones from the Babi Yar ravine, where Nazis and local collaborators murdered more than 50,000 Jews starting in September 1941.
Enjoying a mandate from the Ukrainian government, Siwiec’s organisation, which was set up last year, is heading international efforts to commemorate the Babi Yar tragedy in a manner befitting its scale. Despite many failed initiatives to do so, Jewish victims are memorialised at the site only by an unfenced 6–foot menorah, which is situated near a dumping ground for industrial waste and is vandalised regularly.

The significance of Babi Yar is of upmost importance, at this horrendously difficult site, the largest single act mass murder of Jews took place during the Holocaust, with 37,771 brutally murdered during a 2 day period, it is our duty not just to remember this site but also proactively learn from the darkest days of human history to build a better future,” Siwiec said in the statement about the discovery.
Additional headstones from Jewish graves are scattered in the ravine but they require careful excavations to be extracted intact, according to Jonny Daniels, founder of the From the Depths organisation, which promotes the commemoration of the Holocaust in Poland. Daniels visited the site earlier this week to see how From the Depths, which has focused on restoring pillaged headstones in Poland, could assist the Babi Yar Holocaust Memorial Centre, Daniels said.
Here, Jonny speaks at Babi Yar regarding the headstones that were uncovered:
Mr. Siwiec and the author of the above-quoted article (who, among other errors, claims that 37,771 Jews were killed in the massacre on 29/30 September, whereas the actual number was 33,771) obviously didn’t do their homework. I don’t know of any document or witness according to which headstones stolen from a cemetery were dumped in the ravine before the massacre on 29/30 September 1941.

But otherwise the tombstones found are not without interest. The use of tombstones for building the pyres on which the corpses were burned is mentioned by both David Budnik and Yakov Kaper, two of the several hundred inmates of Syrets concentration camp ordered to burn the corpses of massacre victims in the ravine.
David Budnik wrote:Besides digging, we also helped the team that built the furnaces. For this, tombstones and iron fences brought over from the neighboring Jewish cemetery were used. These tombstones were laid on the site 10 meters across by 10 meters in width, like a chessboard. Rails and fences were laid on top of them. Then two rows of logs were put down and then a layer of corpses, then more logs and then more corpses. After this everything was doused with oil and burnt.
Yakov Kaper wrote:On one side, a furnace was being erected. First they brought stones taken from the Jewish cemetery. The tomb-stones bore the dates of those buried in the cemetery. Long railway rails were put on those stones, then iron fences also removed from the cemetery and then some logs with a little room in between to let air through when they started burning.
Last edited by Roberto on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:02 am

Censored CODOH post nr. 125

CODOH thread: Excavation Result: No Enormous Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "!! Excavation Result: No Enormous
Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar !! ... of course"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. ditto.
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:18 pm
Comment: same as here, except that in this case my questions were meant to expose the utter idiocy of "Hannover"'s staple "show us the corpses" phrase.

Reproduction of censored post:
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote: - We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
However often you repeat that nonsense, it is wrong. The historical record is that the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews claimed between 5 and 6 million victims, and that crimes committed by Nazi Germany and/or its European allies against non-Jews (mainly Soviet prisoners of war, inhabitants of besieged Leningrad, and civilians killed in reprisals and massacres related to anti-partisans, to a lesser extent Gypsies, disabled people and members of other minority groups) claimed at least about 5 million victims but probably more than that.

Which isn’t all that many, actually, if you put these numbers into perspective. Have a look at the following:

Is it true that smoking has killed more people than Nazis?

What year had the most human deaths?

How many people have died from war?

How many people died from disease in war?

Worldometers

Europe had a population of 742,452,000 in 2013. With an annual crude death rate of ca. 1 % per year (above world average but not unreasonable considering the death rates of various European countries, see List of sovereign states and dependent territories by mortality rate), you have about 7.4 million deaths in Europe every year, and about the death toll of World War II in Europe (ca. 42 million) every six years. Where are all these people buried? Can you show me their graves?
Hannover wrote: There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
This staple phrase calls for further questions:

11. Why do you consider crime site investigation and/or archaeological reports describing and mapping mass graves to be mere claims?

12. Would you also have this position regarding mass graves that contain victims of crimes committed by the Soviet Union or the Western Allies?

13. Why "900,000 buried at Treblinka", when there are estimates in the order about 800,000 murdered at that place, as well as lower estimates?

14. Why "1,250,000 at Auschwitz" and "250,000 at Sobibór", when the current status of historical research is less than 1 million at Auschwitz and about 170,000 at Sobibór?

15. Who has claimed that there are enormous mass graves containing the remains of about 1 million people at Auschwitz, when according to insider testimonies the victims' cremation remains were mostly dumped into the Vistula river?

16. Are the mass killings at the mentioned places merely "claimed" by "Jews", or have the relevant facts been established by the research of largely non-Jewish historians and mostly West German judicial authorities?

Regarding the "SHOWN" thing, see below.
Hannover wrote:Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.
Further questions:

17. I’m getting the impression that you include these staple phrases into every post in order to accuse whoever addresses only the specific issues that the post is about of "dodging". Do you confirm this? Yes or No? If the answer should be "no", then what is the purpose of including these staple phrases into your posts?

18. Who are "us", and why is what "us" demand supposed to be relevant?

19. What evidence do you have that crime site investigations and archaeological investigations regarding the aforementioned camps, largely if not mostly performed by non-Jews, have anything to do with whatever it is that you call "Zionism"?

20. What evidence do you have that any of the criminal investigators and archaeologists mentioned above made statements against better knowledge (i.e. lied)? Please show the evidence.

21. What exactly do you expect to be "shown" regarding the mass killing of tens or hundreds of thousands of people by Nazi Germany? Please be specific and provide examples in which the remains of similar numbers of people killed by forces of states other than Nazi Germany (e.g. the Soviet Union) were "shown". If you should come up with the German investigation of the Soviet killing of about 4,000 Poles at Katyn, please tell

a) What part (in rough percentage terms) of the excavations conducted and bodies found at this place are "shown" in what source exactly,

b) By what means (drawings, maps, photographs, descriptions by expert witnesses) those excavations and bodies are "shown".

22. As concerns the "verifiable enormous human remains of Jews" thing, what exactly do you think that the "showing" of such remains should consist of for such remains to be "verifiable"? Who should be able to "verify" such remains in what manner exactly? And what examples can you show us in which remains of mass murder victims were "shown" in a "verifiable" manner? If you should come up with the German Katyn investigation, please explain what is supposed to have made the results of that investigation "verifiable", who carried out such verification and on hand of what such verification was done.

I'm looking forward to your answers. No dodging.
Last edited by Roberto on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:09 am

Censored CODOH post nr. 126

CODOH thread: Excavation Result: No Enormous Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar

"Disapproval" notification:
"!! Excavation Result: No Enormous
Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar !! ... of course"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. Is this
dodge no. 112, or 121? We've lost count. Answering
challenges with questions is a weak, illogical avoidance
tactic, see guidelines no corpses no babi yar.
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:20 pm
Comment: same as here, except that in this case I didn't even ask any questions.

Reproduction of censored post:
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:So what do Zionists say since there are no massive corpses that they claim at Babi Yar?

One big laughable excuse used by Roberto Muehlenkamp and Zionists like him is that a 1960s flood magically carried away the "'tens of thousands of Jews" or the also laughably claimed '150,000 total' allegedly buried in Babi Yar.
That’s what I would call a flagrant misrepresentation of my argument. Unless, of course, you can show me where I am supposed to have claimed that – as you are obviously suggesting – tens of thousands of corpses (as opposed to cremation remains) were a) lying in the Babi Yar ravine and b) "washed away" by a "flood".

The "flood" in question was actually was actually the 1961 Kurenivka mudslide in Kiev. The disaster is described as follows:
The mudslide started when the dam securing the loam pulp dump of a brick factory near Babi Yar failed after rain, releasing large volumes of pulp down the steep hill of the modern Olena Teliha Street. The slide immediately hit the lower-located Kurenivka neighbourhood, including residential area, the Krasin Tram Depot, several industrial buildings and a cemetery, as well as automobiles and trams on its way. The total volume of pulp in the vicinity of the streets of Kirilivska - Novokostiantynivska was up to 600 thousand m³ and the depth of up to 4 m. While an official report indicated only 146 fatalities, a recent historical account estimates 1,500.
This description suggests not that human cremation remains lying in the ravine were "washed away", but rather that the ravine in its previous shape was destroyed by the mudslide and the cremation remains lying therein were covered by pulp and mud. Anyway, before that disaster cremation remains were easy to find at Babi Yar. One local inhabitant, Anatolij Kuznetsov, described such finds in his book about Babi Yar, as follows:
We knew this stream perfectly... It contained coarse-grained sand, but now for some reason it was full of white stones.

I stooped and took one to take a closer look. It was a burned piece of a bone, size of a nail, white on one side, black on the other. The stream washed away them from somewhere. [...]

So we walked for a long time over these bones, until we reached the very beginning of the ravine, where the stream disappeared - here it originated from many sources seeping from sandy layers, and that's where the bones came from.

The ravine became narrow ... and in one place the sand became gray. Suddenly we understood that were were walking on human ashes.

[...]

We walked around a little bit, found many whole bones, fresh skull (still wet) and again pieces of black ashes among the gray sand.

I picked up one piece, about two kilograms, took it with me and kept it. This is the ashes of many people, everything is mixed in it - international ashes, so to say.
Hannover wrote:If that was the case then why were Jews looking for these 'washed away' corpses in 2017 as demonstrated in the OP?
Where exactly in the OP was a search for corpses at Babi Yar in 2017 "demonstrated"? I must have missed something.

What I didn’t miss what[sic!] the "Zionists like him" remark, which is bullshit as I have nothing to do with (let alone support) Zionism. To give you the benefit of doubt, I’ll assume that you’re not deliberately making false claims but laboring under the delusion that anyone critical of Revisionism is a "Zionist".
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:23 am

Censored CODOH post nr. 127

CODOH thread: Excavation Result: No Enormous Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "!! Excavation Result: No Enormous
Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar !! ... of course"
Reason: The message contains links to illegal or pirated
software. see OP for 150 k source, pay attention please Is
this dodge no. 120, or 121? We've lost count. Answering
challenges with questions is a weak, illogical avoidance
tactic, see guidelines no corpses no babi yar.
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:21 pm
Comment: same as here, except that in this case the "links to illegal or pirated software" was added. Also note that 150 k" is a straw-man. That number may be claimed by some sources, but it's not my claim, and I'm not bound to what anyone else claims. Like in all previous cases of censorship, the reason (as opposed to the pretext) is not any actual violation of guidelines. The reason is inconvenience to the "Revisionist" position, especially when "Revisionists" in general (and "Revisionist" poster "Hannover" in particular) are made to look foolish.

Reproduction of censored post:
Roberto wrote:
Rmbrmb21 wrote:
Hannover wrote:So what do Zionists say since there are no massive corpses that they claim at Babi Yar?

One big laughable excuse used by Roberto Muehlenkamp and Zionists like him is that a 1960s flood magically carried away the "'tens of thousands of Jews" or the also laughably claimed '150,000 total' allegedly buried in Babi Yar.

If that was the case then why were Jews looking for these 'washed away' corpses in 2017 as demonstrated in the OP?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.”

- Hannover
I've heard that one too, that a flood or landslide managed to make 150K corpses disappear.
Where exactly have you "heard" that? I’m especially interested in the part about "150K corpses" (whole corpses, as opposed to cremation remains). Who exactly made that claim? Can you provide a sourced quote?
Rmbrmb21 wrote:If a flood really did happen and there really were 150K bodies uprooted, then bodies would be everywhere after everything dried up. Stuck in trees, out in fields, in people's lawns even, and so on. If the bodies were broken up into different bits you'd still find some type of something somewhere, bones or teeth. 150K is a lot of people, finding just one body of the supposed 2-day massacre should have been easy enough following the flood if you looked hard enough, unless they were never there.


You may be right if we were talking about whole corpses here, but we are not. We are talking about corpses reduced to cremation remains, which would be hard to find after having been buried by a mudslide. So would corpses, by the way, but the difficulty of detection would not nearly be the same.

And it’s not necessarily 150K, a number that seems much to high if one considers that the largest single massacre in the ravine, the one of 29/30 September 1941, claimed less than 34,000 lives. A total number in the order of 50-70,000 is more realistic.
Rmbrmb21 wrote:Why was there never an excavation in the 40s or 50s, before this natural disaster?
Well, first of all because there was nothing to excavate. Cremation remains were scattered above the ground of the ravine. Local inhabitants could (and did) easily find them and pick them up.

And the second reason was that the Soviets didn’t really care about crimes specifically directed against Jews.
Rmbrmb21 wrote:I know of none with definitive proof of a massacre committed by Germans.
You mean at Babi Yar? No, there was no excavation regarding the people massacred in the ravine, whose corpses were reduced to cremation remains. The only excavation the Soviets carried out was in the soil of Syrets concentration camp, located near the ravine. About 650 corpses were unearthed there according to the respective Soviet report.

However, there were documented excavations of Nazi mass killing victims at other places. Soviet claims in this respect can be verified by checking them against evidence independent of the Soviets, namely German documents and depositions of accused perpetrators before judicial authorities of the German Federal Republic.
Rmbrmb21 wrote:Speaking of, on another thread, Roberto claimed a Soviet commission existed relating to bodies found "near Babi Yar". I guess that means it's counted into the 150K.
No it doesn’t, see above. And what thread exactly did you have in mind? This one? Nothing there from me, in the one post on that thread that was not withheld by the censor, that would suggest anything like the Soviet commission’s having reported finding corpses that "counted into the 150K".
Rmbrmb21 wrote:Anyways, I and lots of others have asked Roberto to show us this commission, but I haven't found anything yet. Has he posted it somewhere else or can I find it on the internet?
What "lots of others" did you have in mind? Yours was the only post on the aforementioned thread in which I was asked questions regarding Babi Yar/Syrets concentration camp, unless I missed something. To which questions I replied in detail, quoting and translating a Soviet investigation commission’s report about the unearthing and examination of 650 corpses in the area of Syrets concentration camp.

The post in which I replied to you is reproduced on a forum that one is not supposed to link to here (apparently "truth" does have secrets on this forum), and I’m also "not authorised to send private messages" (which suggests that there are certain subjects and/or practices on this forum that the moderator doesn’t want me to contact other posters about in PM’s – "truth" on this forum seems to have secrets indeed).

So if you’re interested in the contents of that post, please e-mail me under cortagravatas@yahoo.com.

At the end of the aforementioned post, I invited you to a joint inspection/examination of sites where Nazi massacres are known to have taken place and it is still possible to excavate for corpses/cremation remains:
Roberto wrote:Babi Yar is not the ideal place for such endeavor as the ravine was destroyed in a mudslide in 1961, and it was one of the (relatively few) killing sites in which the corpses were reduced to cremation remains by Sonderkommando 1005 (which doesn’t mean that the massacre of about 34,000 Jews there on 29/30 August 1941 cannot be established beyond a reasonable doubt, for there is sufficient and essentially matching eyewitness and documentary evidence pointing to that massacre). In the graveyard of the Syrets concentration camp, which was located near the ravine, one may still find remains of the inmates who perished in that camp, and whose bodies were not cremated but found by the aforementioned Soviet commission.

However, there are more interesting places that were not visited by Sonderkommando 1005, which means that the corpses are still lying in the pits in which they were buried. There are many such places in Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and other countries that formerly belonged to the Soviet Union. If you’re serious about digging we can go to one or more of these places and do some digging there. Mail me at cortagravatas@yahoo.com if you’re interested in such endeavor.

We can start at one of the killing sites identified by Yahad in Unum or in the Holocaust Atlas of Lithuania. Or, if you are more into extermination camps, there are at least two in whose area digging can still be done, Sobibór and Chełmno. If you dig to the bottom of the large graves at Sobibór, graves numbered 3, 4, 5 and 6 identified by core drilling in 2001 (there are also some rather small graves, four of which contain skeletons that are probably not from the time when the Germans operated the camp there), you’re likely to find lots of corpses in wax-fat transformation. If you don’t dig all the way to the bottom you’ll still come upon large amounts of bone fragments like those I picked up in Oktober 2008, as well as fragments of natural teeth, false teeth and dentures like those shown in the photo Fig. 12 in archaeologist Yoram Haimi's Preliminary Report of Archaeological Excavations in Sobibór Extermination Center, 2016. At Chełmno we’ll probably find no whole bodies anymore regardless of how deep we dig, but we’ll surely find bone fragments aplenty.

Of course any such digging would be illegal (you’re also not supposed to dig up the stiffs from Arlington National Cemetery or any ACW cemetery), so I’ll leave the digging to you and just film your digging and whatever you find.

So, what do you say? Want to give it a try?
The above invitation is hereby extended to Hannover. Let’s see if he’s prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

What do you say, Hannover?

Shall we go digging at places known to history as Nazi massacre sites where you claim no massacres took place at all?

Are you so confident of your position that you’re willing to empirically test its merits?

If so, please contact me under the aforementioned e-mail address. I have some good ideas about where we might start.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:54 pm

So much for the Babi Yar mass killing site. Now to some more regarding Chelmno extermination camp

Censored CODOH post nr. 128

CODOH thread: Roberto Muehlenkamp & the Indu$try's bizarre photo claim of alleged massive Chelmno human remains :lol: (note the imbecility of the title - "Hannover" seems to be trying as hard as he can to make "Revisionism" unpalatable to everyone other than "Revisionist" true believers, and even some of those have been alienated by his antics).

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "Roberto Muehlenkamp & the
Indu$try's bizarre photo claim of alleged massive
Chelmno human remains"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. So we
have dodge, what? no. 122? or something where is the
requested lab analysis? where is an verifiable record of
the volume What human bones? where are the photos of
the alleged excavation?
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:25 pm
Comment: same as here as concerns the "dodge" BS. Again, the pretexts invoked for censorship and the actual reasons for doing so are two different pairs of boots.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:A man who makes personal threats against those that he believes to be free speech Revisionists, Roberto Muehlenkamp, and his 'Holocau$t Industry' propagandists claim this photo shows a burial pit at the German WWII transit site, Chelmno / Kulmhof that is said to be filled with human remains.


Quite a lot of falsehoods for a single paragraph.
First of all, there is the "personal threats" claim, which Hannover should either substantiate with evidence or withdraw with an apology.

Second, there is the claim that I’m against free speech, which I’m actually all in favor of (as becomes apparent from, inter alia, the custom signature I use on another site, in which I express my opposition to laws against Holocaust denial). Quite unlike certain Revisionists, who claim to offer open debate but actually offer censorship, thereby showing that their "truth" does have secrets and their lies need to be shielded from debate.

Third, there’s the "'Holocau$t Industry' propagandists" nonsense. As Hannover well knows, I have nothing to do with any "Industry". I’m a private citizen with limited financial means who pursues deconstruction of Revisionism as a hobby, motivated by nothing other than an aversion to ideologically motivated falsifications of history in support of an ideological agenda.

Fourth, I don’t remember having ever claimed that the photo in question:
Image
and:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... l_pits.jpg

shows burial pits. In fact, I’m seeing the photo as shown above for the first time, and I think it rather shows excavation at places believed to have been sites where the bodies were cremated.

Note, by the way, the clearly visible white bone fragments that litter the excavated soil. They are also visible in this video by Alan Heath.

Maps of the former Chelmno extermination site and an air photograph of mass graves in the Rzuchów forest ("Plot IV") are part of a report about archaeological investigations in 2003/2004, written by archaeologist Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak. A shorter version of the article is available on the website of the Museum of the former Extermination Camp in Chełmno-on-Ner, where two plans can be downloaded, one showing the whole of the former camp’s area and the other a close-up of "Plot IV", where two large mass graves, 11 smaller dumping pits for cremation remains and several former cremation sites (which, as I said, are what the aforementioned wrongly captioned photograph obviously shows) can be seen. Here are some satellite photographs of the whole area and of "Plot IV":
Image

Image

The darker green shapes of the mass graves can be clearly made out, as can the excavations in what, according to the map of "Plot IV", were cremation and not burial sites.

Last but not least, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Chelmno/Kulmhof was a "German WWII transit site". If it had been that, evidence pointing in this direction would be all over the place. But there is none, not the tiniest shred. No Revisionist has yet been able to provide a name of a single Jew who was "transited" via Chelmno, especially to what Korherr called the "Russian East".
Hannover wrote:As usual with the absurd & impossible 'holocau$t' claims, it most definitely does NOT show what is claimed. A blind man can see that.
It is true that the photos posted by Hannover don’t show burial pits, but the "as usual" generalization is nonsense, moreover as none of these places has obviously been claimed by archaeologists to be a burial pit. A mistaken caption on a website is not history.
Hannover wrote:We ridiculously see a pile of dirt that is claimed to be the remains of 152,000 - 340,000 people allegedly killed there, the total depends upon which profit seeking shyster you talk to.
Utter nonsense. The mass graves at Chelmno are described in the aforementioned archaeological report as follows:
Plot II [5]
The first grave:
It has an irregular shape; the width of the northern part can be established at 8 m and narrows by 3 meters towards the south. Its length equals 62 m. Under the humus there is an ash layer, on top of which were found unburned objects belonging to the victims. While uncovering the grave it was noticed that the earth must have contained some active substances, for protective rubber gloves became destroyed. The presence of such substances was thought to be linked to experiments of destroying the corpses in the graves with quicklime, which however were discontinued as the method turned out to be ineffective.

Plot III
The second grave:
The grave was found to have irregular width, ranging from about 7 m in the southeastern part, through about 10 m in the middle part, to only 4 m in the northeastern edge. While the new layout was being uncovered, the existence of burned-out objects and ashes as well as crushed human bones both burned and unburned was detected. A further part of the grave contains burned-out objects mixed with inclusions of ash and bone meal as well as lumps of burn waste and coke. The total length of the grave equals 254 m. The depth established on the basis of drills equals 3 m. The northern segment of the grave was assumed to be probably linked to different attempts to remove the corpses, burn them inside the graves or in primitive furnaces-hearths as well as to the process of crushing bones. In the other segment, bones ground into bone meal were found. During one of the traverse probing surveys a fragment of a smoked concrete pipe was found, suggesting that in some part of the grave corpses were burned.

Plot IV
The third grave:
Its total length equals 174 m, width about 8 m. The contents of the grave include sandy soil with gravel, burn waste, ash, and crushed human bones.

The fourth grave: Its actual width equals 10 m, while its length is 182 m. It is filled with gray sandy soil mixed with inclusions of burn waste, ash and crushed bones.

The fifth grave: It is not one single grave but rather a line of pits filled with ashes. The total length of these 11 pits, located 2-3 m from one another, equals 161 m. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts crushed. The archaeologist refers to judge Bednarz, according to whom the depth of the pits was about 4 m and their width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface.
Not counting the "fifth grave", which is a row of 11 dumping pits for cremation remains, the graves used for burial of whole corpses during camp times (before the corpses were exhumed and cremated) are thus the following:

First grave: Length 62 meters, width 5 to 8 meters, depth not stated.
Second grave: Length 254 meters, width 4 to 10 meters, depth 3 meters.
Third grave: Length 174 meters, width 8 meters, depth not stated.
Fourth grave: Length 182 meters, width 10 meters, depth not stated.

Assuming that all graves were as deep as the second grave was determined to be, i.e. 3 meters, that the average width of the irregularly shaped graves was the medium of their largest and smallest width, and that no correction for sloping walls is necessary due to the graves' comparatively low depth, one can thus calculate the area and volume of these graves as follows:

Image

16,179 cubic meters are more than enough to bury about 152,000 corpses (the realistic order of magnitude established by a court of the German Federal Republic on hand of documentary evidence; the initial Polish estimate of 340,000 is much too high). Even if one were to consider some sloping, the burial space would still be more than sufficient, especially as not all corpses were buried but some were cremated right after gassing.
Hannover wrote:We see no human bones , we see no laboratory analysis which might prove that it's even human ash.
We do see human bones, like those I found at Sobibór. Expecting a laboratory analysis on a photograph of excavations is rather unrealistic.
Hannover wrote:We see nothing except claims made by those that profit big time from the impossible 'holocau$t' storyline.
Worthless hollow pep-talk.
Hannover wrote:And so, Mr. Anti Free Speech Thug, Roberto Muehlenkamp, and your violent Zionist pals, where is a verifiable, reviewable laboratory analysis of this pile of dirt that proves it's the remains of 152,000 - 340,000 people?
Nobody claimed that "this pile of dirt" contains the remains of all people murdered at Chelmno, so the question is pointless (to put it politely).

And the lowly and laughably far-fetched and mendacious insults are not only in flagrant violation of this forum’s guidelines, but also an indication that their author is even further removed from reality than usual.

As to laboratory analysis of bone fragment samples, I’m sure that such was done, and that the results thereof can be obtained from the Chelmno museum if you ask them nicely. So how about doing that?
Hannover wrote:All that we see is the laughably desperate wishful thinking of Roberto Muehlenkamp and Jews like him.
Desperate wishful thinking is obviously on the Revisionist side, and the claim that I’m a Jew further suggests that its author is delirious.
Hannover wrote:Of course, the obvious question is why do so many people want so many Jews to be dead? Revisionists don't.
I’d rather say they do, otherwise they wouldn’t be the murderers’ willing defense attorneys.
Hannover wrote:Jews should be especially elated to hear that the alleged & impossible '6M' of their brethren were not murdered.
What’s actually impossible is that up to 6 million non-victims throughout the world (as well as their descendants) should have remained concealed throughout the world over a period of seven decades after the end of World War II, without a shred of evidence suggesting their being alive having ever surfaced. Whoever believes in a conspiracy powerful and influential enough to achieve that might also believe in UFOs and other supernatural stuff.
Hannover wrote:also recommended:
'The Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp claims 'Heinrich May Report on Chelmno' / So let's see it.'
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11324
You will see it, relax. Like the readers of the "other site" to which links are forbidden (CODOH "truth" obviously has secrets) have seen the censored post in which the archival reference of that document was provided.
Hannover wrote:and
'Krzysztof Gorczyca's fraudulent excavation of the Chelmno 'death camp' '
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10385
Much nonsense, no evidence of fraudulence unless I missed something (if you think I did then kindly point it out). Hannover’s yelling "fraudulence" at all evidence to wrongdoing by Nazi Germany (whose folks must have been true angels in his fantasies) is so ridiculous that it has alienated more than one more reasonable Revisionist.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Censored CODOH post nr. 129

CODOH thread: Roberto Muehlenkamp & the Indu$try's bizarre photo claim of alleged massive Chelmno human remains :lol: (note the imbecility of the title - "Hannover" seems to be trying as hard as he can to make "Revisionism" unpalatable to everyone other than "Revisionist" true believers, and even some of those have been alienated by his antics).

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "Roberto Muehlenkamp & the
Indu$try's bizarre photo claim of alleged massive
Chelmno human remains"
Reason: The message contains links to illegal or pirated
software. endless dodges, what? no. 124 now? see
previous explanation/s.
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:27 pm
Comment: same as here as concerns the "dodge" BS. The "illegal or pirated software thing is equally nonsensical (unless Quora, Wikipedia or Worldometers are or use such software, which I don't know they do). Again, the pretexts invoked for censorship and the actual reasons for doing so are two different pairs of boots. I repeated some inconvenient questions that I had asked "Hannover" before regarding his staple phrases (and that he, of course, had run away from by pulling the censorship emergency brake.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote:Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
The historical record is not impossible at all, but the hollow conspiracy theory that claims its impossibility certainly is.
Hannover wrote: Remember, we're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.
From a previous post:
Roberto wrote:
Hannover wrote: - We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
However often you repeat that nonsense, it is wrong. The historical record is that the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews claimed between 5 and 6 million victims, and that crimes committed by Nazi Germany and/or its European allies against non-Jews (mainly Soviet prisoners of war, inhabitants of besieged Leningrad, and civilians killed in reprisals and massacres related to anti-partisans, to a lesser extent Gypsies, disabled people and members of other minority groups) claimed at least about 5 million victims but probably more than that.

Which isn’t all that many, actually, if you put these numbers into perspective. Have a look at the following:

Is it true that smoking has killed more people than Nazis?

What year had the most human deaths?

How many people have died from war?

How many people died from disease in war?

Worldometers

Europe had a population of 742,452,000 in 2013. With an annual crude death rate of ca. 1 % per year (above world average but not unreasonable considering the death rates of various European countries, see List of sovereign states and dependent territories by mortality rate), you have about 7.4 million deaths in Europe every year, and about the death toll of World War II in Europe (ca. 42 million) every six years. Where are all these people buried? Can you show me their graves?
Hannover wrote: There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
This staple phrase calls for further questions:

11. Why do you consider crime site investigation and/or archaeological reports describing and mapping mass graves to be mere claims?

12. Would you also have this position regarding mass graves that contain victims of crimes committed by the Soviet Union or the Western Allies?

13. Why "900,000 buried at Treblinka", when there are estimates in the order about 800,000 murdered at that place, as well as lower estimates?

14. Why "1,250,000 at Auschwitz" and "250,000 at Sobibór", when the current status of historical research is less than 1 million at Auschwitz and about 170,000 at Sobibór?

15. Who has claimed that there are enormous mass graves containing the remains of about 1 million people at Auschwitz, when according to insider testimonies the victims' cremation remains were mostly dumped into the Vistula river?

16. Are the mass killings at the mentioned places merely "claimed" by "Jews", or have the relevant facts been established by the research of largely non-Jewish historians and mostly West German judicial authorities?

Regarding the "SHOWN" thing, see below.
Hannover wrote:Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.
Further questions:

17. I’m getting the impression that you include these staple phrases into every post in order to accuse whoever addresses only the specific issues that the post is about of "dodging". Do you confirm this? Yes or No? If the answer should be "no", then what is the purpose of including these staple phrases into your posts?

18. Who are "us", and why is what "us" demand supposed to be relevant?

19. What evidence do you have that crime site investigations and archaeological investigations regarding the aforementioned camps, largely if not mostly performed by non-Jews, have anything to do with whatever it is that you call "Zionism"?

20. What evidence do you have that any of the criminal investigators and archaeologists mentioned above made statements against better knowledge (i.e. lied)? Please show the evidence.

21. What exactly do you expect to be "shown" regarding the mass killing of tens or hundreds of thousands of people by Nazi Germany? Please be specific and provide examples in which the remains of similar numbers of people killed by forces of states other than Nazi Germany (e.g. the Soviet Union) were "shown". If you should come up with the German investigation of the Soviet killing of about 4,000 Poles at Katyn, please tell

a) What part (in rough percentage terms) of the excavations conducted and bodies found at this place are "shown" in what source exactly,

b) By what means (drawings, maps, photographs, descriptions by expert witnesses) those excavations and bodies are "shown".

22. As concerns the "verifiable enormous human remains of Jews" thing, what exactly do you think that the "showing" of such remains should consist of for such remains to be "verifiable"? Who should be able to "verify" such remains in what manner exactly? And what examples can you show us in which remains of mass murder victims were "shown" in a "verifiable" manner? If you should come up with the German Katyn investigation, please explain what is supposed to have made the results of that investigation "verifiable", who carried out such verification and on hand of what such verification was done.

I'm looking forward to your answers. No dodging.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:44 pm

Censored CODOH post nr. 130

Before I move on to further more recently opened CODOH threads, there's some more on the thread 'Holocaust Industy's' Roberto Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !!

Said thread was last addressed in this post.

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "'Holocaust Industy's' Roberto
Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of
extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !!"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. still
dodging wiernik.
Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:58 pm
Comment: same as here as concerns the "dodging" BS. In this case, like in others before, "dodging" seems to mean something like "not agreeing with/nodding to "Revisionist" BS", as I had addressed Wiernik's account in several previously censored posts, item by item of claims/arguments presented in this respect by "Revisionist" posters. Moreover the post I commented, reproduced below, was not about Wiernik at all but about archaeological surveys of the soil at the site of former Treblinka extermination camp. As usual, the pretext invoked for censorship obviously had nothing to do with the actual reason (my mentioning the fact that "Revisionist" Krege had shot "Revisionism" squarely in the foot with his GPR scanning of Treblinka's soil).

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
donron wrote:Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
At Treblinka... forensic archaeologist Caroline Sturdy-Colls conducted an archaeological survey whose results were reported to the press and are mentioned in several publications of hers, but she hasn’t yet issued a comprehensive report... in which she renders in detail the finds made (coordinates and measurements of the grave pits identified, plans and sections or at least maps of these graves, examples of GPR scans that support her conclusions).

This means that the existence of the graves or parts of graves that have been identified according to CS-C cannot yet be considered proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
So even this Roberto Muehlenkamp admits that Caroline Sturdy-Colls did not refute Richard Krege.
Richard Krege:

Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated toward the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943, but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed. Personally, I don't think there was an extermination camp there at all.
Krege refuted himself, as I pointed out elsewhere:
Unfortunately for "Revisionists", who initially placed high hopes in Craigie/Krege, their champ not only carried out a rather bumbling study but also seems to have found what he set out to prove the non-existence of. A GPR-scan paraded by Krege and other "Revisionists" was commented as follows by GPR expert Lawrence B. Conyers[72] emphases added):
I looked at the web site, and the image you sent. It is only one small part of his 'grid'. The picture shows him using a 200 MHz antenna and collecting about 1 meter spaced transects in a huge grid. That image is not processed, and only shows about a 5 meter long section in one line. And even in that profile it looks like a bunch of "things" in the ground on the right hand side that could easily be mass graves. It is apparent that this guy either does not know anything of GPR, or at the very least does not know how to process it. To really do a good job, the data need to be put into a 3-D cube of reflections and processed in a batch, including ALL the profiles collected. If you really wanted to get to the bottom of this you either need to get his data and let someone else process it, or re-collect it all and re-process your own data. This is NOT a scientific or representive study of the ground by any stretch.
Mr. Cragie/Krege also seems to have realized that he shot "Revisionism" in the foot with his GPR exercise, which would explain why he has not published a report about his GPR investigation more than ten years after the same was done. The "Revisionist" scene has grown silent in Krege matters. Even the pathologically rabid "National Association of Forensic Historians", which used to make a big fuss about Krege’s "detailed FORENSIC EXAMINATION", does not mention it any longer[73].
The source for Conyers' assessment is a post by "wet blanket", Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:12 am on this forum. See also this thread on the "Axis History Forum". post by "sallyg" on 07 Feb 2006, 03:59:
Significant purturbation of the "A" or topsoil horizon is present and the inconsistent returns from the "B" or subsoil horizon certainly merits investigation. As an example of undisturbed soil, this fails any test.


On the same thread "Obdicut" wrote the following to Michael Mills regarding Craigie/Krege:
Mr. Mills,

Since the images do show disturbance of the topsoil consistent with graves (in the most generous sense), I hope he didn't follow your advice.
Conyers' website is now here.

The "NAFH" hysteric(s) (I don't know of any members other than the "President") used to tout Krege as follows:
A detailed FORENSIC EXAMINATION of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there. For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.
Now a search for Krege on the "NAFH" site yields no results.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival

Post by Roberto » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:11 pm

Censored CODOH post nr. 131

CODOH thread 'Holocaust Industy's' Roberto Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !!

"Disapproval" notification:
Post disapproved: "'Holocaust Industy's' Roberto
Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of
extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !!"
Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other
category, please use the further information field. still
nothing that supports Wiernik's hilarious claims In real
courts of law it's called 'credibility', and Wiernik would be
laughed out the door 125? & still going see guidelines you
agreed to.
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:33 pm
The "dodging" BS was not invoked here, unless the "125? & still going see guidelines you agreed to" BS is supposed to mean that.

However, this doesn't make the pretext for censorship less hilarious. If, as the moderator claimed, there was nothing in my previous posts on this thread that "supports Wiernik's hilarious claims", then why did he censor all but one of these posts, instead of publishing them (especially the first of them, in which I provided detailed arguments for Wiernik's essential credibility despite a number of flaws in his testimony) so they could be argued against?

Also note the claim that Wiernik would be "laughed of the door" in "real courts of law". That's vintage "Hannover" (who, as I have pointed out more than once, knows as much about "real courts of law" and their demands regarding evidence as a pig does about Sunday). So the CODOH moderator again stupidly provided evidence that he and "Hannover" are the same individual.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
HeiligeSturm wrote:
Revisionist wrote:I read a bit of "A Year in Treblinka" and stopped it after some chapters. I always had the feeling that Wiernik tries to manipulate the reader with emotions. He didn't describe the "events" exactly as possible.
Same thing with Chil Rajchman's The Last Jew of Treblinka. It's all about appealing on reader's emotions.
When there is some "description" of events, it's the good ol' horror story narrative with it's irrational and impossible aspects.
Not exactly.

There are indeed some implausible, even preposterous claims in Rajchman's account.

However, just like Wiernik's account, Rachjman's also contains interesting and plausible information, corroborated by evidence independent of Rajchman.

What I find most interesting about Rajchman's account is his description of just how incomplete the cremation on the Treblinka rosters was. Whole skeletons, body parts that retained their natural shape (also mentioned by former Ukrainian guard Leleko), which then had to be subjected to laborious post-cremation processing, and even that wasn't entirely successful as shown by postwar finds of large amounts of cremation remains large and small on the Treblinka site.

This, in turn, means that fuel requirements were not nearly as high as would have been required to achieve a complete cremation, which is an argument in showing up as preposterous the claims of impracticably enormous amounts of fuel made by Revisionists like Carlo Mattogno.
Censored CODOH post nr. 132

CODOH thread 'Holocaust Industy's' Roberto Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !!

"Disapproval" notification:

Apparently none, this one seems to have gone down the memory hole without further ado.

Reproduction of censored post
Roberto wrote:
Elroy wrote:I realise Muehlenkamp is tolerated here because of his prominence to the lie-side and because his destruction is an example to those who read CODOH.
Err, no. The "lie-side" is the Revisionist side, and whoever wants to "destroy" me in debate has to get up a lot earlier than Revisionists do. The only way Revisionists can prevail against me is by censoring my posts, which is what the moderator at this lovely place does all the time.

I like the word "tolerated", by the way. On a forum that is supposed to offer and promote open debate, opposition is merely "tolerated". That speaks volumes about CODOH. :lol:
Elroy wrote:But is there any thread where he has not been embarrassed in?
Actually there's not a single thread where my arguments would not have embarrassed Revisionists if I had been allowed to make them. But even so, I managed to make a fool of Hannover in some of the very few of my posts that were not censored. And of course censorship is as embarrassing as can be to CODOH Revisionism.

Are you so naïve as to believe that you see no response of mine to certain posts because I considered the arguments presented there to be unchallengeable?

Or are you aware and in favor of censoring opposition posters and then falsely claiming to have "destroyed" them?
Elroy wrote:If he is trying to build a believable narrative out of something absurd
I'm not. There's nothing absurd about the historical record of mass murder and body disposal at Treblinka.
Elroy wrote:why in the hell would he even mention Wiernik? Would not the lie-strategy be to minimise or completely dodge anything from Wiernik?
Unlike Revisionists I don't pursue a "lie-strategy". And as concerns Wiernik, it is true that parts of his account are implausible, even preposterous, but it is also true that other parts are not only plausible but also corroborated by evidence independent of Wiernik.
Elroy wrote:Continuing in that respect, it's "unstable" that someone like Muehlenkamp would even post on codoh.
Not at all, actually. My objective in posting on CODOH (in which I have been quite successful) is to demonstrate that a) Revisionist lies need to be shielded from debate and b) Revisionist "truth" does have secrets.
Elroy wrote:Considering his exposure here renders his entire website fraudulent in its entirety, which is a major go to point for ordinary people "researching" the holocaust before they discover, if ever, that it's a lie.
Err, what exposure of "my" website are you talking about? You must be referring to the Holocaust Controversies blog site, where I occasionally post articles. The moderator seems to be so afraid of articles posted by me and others on that blog site that he censors any links to it. Censoring opposition and then performing victory dances exposes no one other than the censor.
Elroy wrote:The information in Roberto's site I've seen, is mainly only understandable or researchable to people whom have already discovered it's a lie, by then it's clear that his attempts are just absurd.
Your statement is not exactly coherent or understandable, but please do tell, what information on "my" site exactly do you have in mind?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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