Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

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Loog
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Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Loog »

My other thread was defiled, so I am restarting it here and beg of you all - please refrain from any comments deviating from the extremely specific discussion me and the Admiral are having, otherwise I will take this to the PMs.

As a refresher, Admiral is arguing against the orthodox revisionist position as espoused for example here by Kues https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... in-the/en/ that 1.5 million Polish Jews were sent East thru the Reinhardt camps.

I argued, almost as a revisionist would (how amusing!), that this systematized "resettlement" happened because welp Nazi documents say it did. I began by showing him Himmler's order for the Resettlement of the Jewish population of the GG
Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:15 am
Sure, I can find the exact text, but I already said precisely what he said and if you're having problems with the Himmler order I'm not going to play the game where you fish for info while tactically making a show of not acknowledging it. Of course, there's additional context you didn't bother to learn such as Himmler's plans, around the time of his GG order, to bring non-German Jews in the heart of Germany to work in secured factories.
Loog wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:30 am
What do you make of Himmler's order from July 19, 1942?
I herewith order that the resettlement (Umseidlung) of the entire Jewish population of the Government-General be carried out and completed by December 31, 1942.

From December 31, 1942, no persons of Jewish origin may remain within the Government-General, unless they are in collection camps in Warsaw, krakow, Czestochowa, Radom, and Lublin. All other work on which Jewish labor is employed must be finished by that date, or, in the event that this is not possible, it must be transferred to one of the collection camps.

These measures are required with a view to the necessary ethnic division of races and peoples for the New Order in Europe, and also in the interests of the security and cleanliness of the German Reich and its sphere of interest. Every breach of this regulation spells a danger to quiet and order in the entire German sphere of interest, a point of application for the resistance movement and a source of moral and physical pestilence.

For all these reasons a total cleansing is necessary and therefore to be carried out. Cases in which the date set can not be observed will be reported to me in time, so that I can see to corrective action at an early date. All requests by other offices for changes or permits for exceptions to be made must be presented to me personally.

Heil Hilter!

https://training.ehri-project.eu/sites/ ... n%20DE.pdf
You can start with the first sentence, slowly. Then you can try to figure out how GG's economy worked and what the "collection camps" were.
I think I dealt with one of his concerns here: viewtopic.php?p=185295#p185295. His other concern was that the order was clearly not carried out by the end of 1942, and that the timing of the order fell well after the supposed start date of Einsatz Reinhardt:
Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:47 pm
Loog wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:30 am
What do you make of Himmler's order from July 19, 1942?

(...)

I suppose you disagree with the main body of revisionism that this order was ever carried out?
Ignoring that his superior countermanded it in September, the order is defined by doing things, that by anyone's account were not done, by a date: December 31, 1942. Of course, the date of the order itself is problematic for those claiming that's Aktion Reinhardt.

My question to the Admiral would be, how do any of these facts preclude mass "resettlement" from ever having occurred?

By the end of 1942, German documents suggest 1.25 million Jews were transited, out of a total of ~1.5 that would be sent out in the coming months. By mid 1943, the ghettos were largely emptied, with Jewish labor moved to "collection camps" scattered throughout the GG. So Himmler's order was fulfilled, if a few months late.

Einsatz Reinhardt began several months before Himmler's order concerning the entirety of the GG yes, but such an order couldn't have possibly been made/carried out any earlier. The Reinhardt camp responsible for processing the largest portion of the Jewish population, Treblinka, was not ready yet, coming online 23 July 1942, 4 days after the Himmler order.
Last edited by Loog on Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Admiral E. Rastus
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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:34 am
As a refresher, Admiral is arguing against the orthodox revisionist position as espoused for example here by Kues https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... in-the/en/ that 1.5 million Polish Jews were sent East thru the Reinhardt camps.
Not really. I merely said that passing them through the camps doesn't mean no further redirects of those who come out or couldn't come in inside GG, pending removal to the East in the future.
Loog wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:34 am
Einsatz Reinhardt began several months before Himmler's order concerning the entirety of the GG yes, but such an order couldn't have possibly been made/carried out any earlier. The Reinhardt camp responsible for processing the largest portion of the Jewish population, Treblinka, was not ready yet, coming online 23 July 1942, 4 days after the Himmler order.
The mass evacuation Himmler ordered, starting with Warsaw as a grand gesture, was immediately met with bottlenecks at Treblinka, as revealed in a Treblinka medic's frustrated letter to his wife. https://codoh.com/library/document/revi ... anasie/en/

As such, when processing issues are encountered, things can change. Likewise I'm sure according to German documents all things are accounted for them to win the war, in theory. And yet we find ourselves today with Drag Queen Story Hour.

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:54 pm
Not really. I merely said that passing them through the camps doesn't mean no further redirects of those who come out or couldn't come in inside GG, pending removal to the East in the future.
So do you disagree with this statement by Kues?

"Taken together, this means that the number of Jews who reached the occupied eastern territories almost certainly amounted to somewhere between 1,800,000 and 1,900,000." (of these ~1.5 million are Polish Jews)

It would certainly seem you disagree, otherwise what are we arguing about?

To that effect you have produced a vague letter from July 42 referencing not quite a bottleneck (which itself would indicate very little) but a pace that is "downright breathtaking". I think you will have to try harder here if you wish to overturn such a precise document as the Korherr report, dated spring 1943. Call orthodox historiography a drag contest if you wish, but you affirm here once more that by comparison your team is

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmHtrZtKnrY

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

German recordkeeping during any deportations isn't great. It's hard to get a tally of the Jews unloaded in the East in other years, when the matter was under more intense departmental surveillance and discussion within the German state.

The precision of the Korherr report is not in question, as it's based on a single, mediated source of information for that matter. IIRC, Korherr testified he just received these numbers as such and went with them. Moreover, even for the developments in the Reich (which were the focus of the report), Judeophile Korherr made an input of various sources including dubious ones such as the opinions of Jewish and Gentile sociologists, Church statistics, and data gathered by Jews.

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:21 am
German recordkeeping during any deportations isn't great.
You have previously admitted records of "certain" deportations were considerable (the 'Reich Jews' in Russia from 41-42) so I'm afraid you'll have to take this up with your past self.

But let us assume you are correct and they didn't keep such records. In the evidence that does remain to us, still much more points to a directed "evacuation" than whatever you're claiming happened. They changed their plans -- to what? My friend, perhaps we both believe in phantoms, but mine at least has actual evidence going for it. I don't think you can really blame me here?

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Roberto1945 »

I would also like to know about this alleged resettlement of huge numbers of Jews.

No Nazi who ran any of the camps ever testified that Jews had been transited to the Russian east.

No Jew has ever written or spoken about being sent to a Nazi camp and then transited to the Russian east.

No German citizen, Polish citizen, Ukrainian citizen, Russian citizen or any other nationality has ever written or spoken about seeing large numbers of Jews being transited to the Russian east.

No Holocaust denier can name any of the 1.4 MILLION Jews who were said to have been transited to the Russian east.

There are no records of any such event said to have taken place.

It's wishful thinking on behalf of Holocaust deniers.

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by been-there »

Roberto1945 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:47 am
...this alleged resettlement of huge numbers of Jews.

...Jews had been transited to the Russian east.

...about being sent to a Nazi camp and then transited to the Russian east.

...large numbers of Jews being transited to the Russian east.

... said to have been transited to the Russian east.

There are no records of any such event said to have taken place.

It's wishful thinking on behalf of Holocaust deniers [revisionists].
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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Roberto1945 »

been-there wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:53 am
Roberto1945 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:47 am
...this alleged resettlement of huge numbers of Jews.

...Jews had been transited to the Russian east.

...about being sent to a Nazi camp and then transited to the Russian east.

...large numbers of Jews being transited to the Russian east.

... said to have been transited to the Russian east.

There are no records of any such event said to have taken place.

It's wishful thinking on behalf of Holocaust deniers [revisionists].
Image
Except there is no strawman argument.

There is NO EVIDENCE of any Jews being transited to the Russian east. If there is, show me. You can't even name FOUR Jews out of over 1.4 MILLION Jews who were said to have been transited to the Russian east.

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Turnagain »

Roberto1945 wrote:
There is NO EVIDENCE of any Jews being transited to the Russian east.
There is NO EVIDENCE other than some fragmentary records from Majdanek and the USHMM and the testimony from some very credible witnesses that as many 15-20,000 Jews were transited through Treblinka. No train schedules, no eyewitnesses other than the deportees themselves to the fact that they did leave Treblinka. How do you explain those lack of records, Roberto?

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Re: Did "Resettlement" Even Happen? pt 2

Post by Roberto1945 »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:18 am
Roberto1945 wrote:
There is NO EVIDENCE of any Jews being transited to the Russian east.
There is NO EVIDENCE other than some fragmentary records from Majdanek and the USHMM and the testimony from some very credible witnesses that as many 15-20,000 Jews were transited through Treblinka. No train schedules, no eyewitnesses other than the deportees themselves to the fact that they did leave Treblinka. How do you explain those lack of records, Roberto?
The transit camp theory claims that over 1.4 million Jews were sent from Nazi camps to the Russian east and lived happily ever after. You are referring to some Jews who were deemed fit enough to work in other Nazi camps.

Don't confuse the two, Turnagain.

Again, just answer Loog's query about the alleged huge ressetlement in the Russian east. You or any other Holocaust denier who propagates such a theory needs to prove it.

So far, you and every other Holocaust denier have failed at every hurdle.

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