Witness credibility

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Nessie
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Witness credibility

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain trolls threads repeatedly asking for a credible Jewish witness to the gassings, burials and cremations at TII. I have gone as far to list all the witnesses, not just Jewish, but also Nazi and Polish, to what happened at TII here;

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3808&p=151220#p151220

2 - Witness evidence

2.1 - Sonderkommado evidence

List of eye witnesses, those who were inside TII and saw the gassings and other activity at the camp (there are 13 German and 7 Ukrainian camp staff and 14 Jewish Sonderkommandos);

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3196

Yankel Wiernik's 1945 book "A Year in Treblinka" and his testimony at the Eichmann trial

http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 66-03.html

Abraham Krzepicki book "Eighteen Days in Treblinka"

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t1916.html

Extracts from Sonderkommados, Oscar Strawczynski, Hershl Sperling, Richard Glazar, Avraham Bomba, Eliahu Rosenberg ;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... ki%20.html
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rling.html
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... lazar.html
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... bomba.html
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... imony.html

Filmed evidence from Sonderkommandos Samuel Willenberg and Kalman Taigman;

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5641828/

Original testimony of Sonderkommado Samuel Rajzman;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DAgN3Y7N2o

Trial (1946) testimony of Sonderkommando Samuel Rajzman

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-27-46.asp

Original testimony of Sonderkommado Abe Kon;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... dyA3dDs3aA

Eichmann trial testimony of Avraham Lindwasser;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... imony.html

Avraham Bomba interview with USHMM in 1990;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... bomba.html

2.2 - Nazis

Extracts of Nazi testimony about the various AR camps, including Treblinka;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html

2.3 - Polish railway workers

Franciszek Zabecki, station master, kept records of full trains arriving and empty trains leaving

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... becki.html

Other Polish rail workers who saw train movements to and from TII;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DAgN3Y7N2o
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DAgN3Y7N2o
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DAgN3Y7N2o

Polish train driver testimony, who took prisoners to TII;

https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn1004372
https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn507880

Collated statements of those who gave evidence to the Polish enquiry into TII, by Judge Łukaszkiewicz in 1945;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/res ... 20camp&p=0

There is a full list of all known witnesses to what happened inside TII here;

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3196

D1) Treblinka Nazis :


1) Franz Stangl 1970 - Dussledorf
Camp commander Sobibor and Treblinka
2) Kurt Franz 1964 - Dussledorf
deputy camp commander. 'the doll'
3) Willi Mentz 1964 - Dussledorf
'the gunman of Treblinka' - 'frankenstein'
4) Heinrich Mattes 1964 - Dussledorf
'doctor'
5) Otto von Horn 1964 - Dussledorf
1990's - IvanTerrible
(witness)
6) Erwin Lambert 1964 - Dussledorf
'the flying architect'
7) Franz Suchomel 1964 - Dussledorf
8) August Miete 1964 - Dussledorf
'Angel of death'
9) Gustav Munzberger 1964 - Dussledorf
10) Otto Stadie 1964 - Dussledorf
11) Rudolf Hoess
Auschwitz camp commander
12) Dr Irmfried Erbel arrested jan 48
First commander of camp - replaced for incompetence
13) Erich Fuchs
based at sobibor

D2) Treblinka Ukranian camp staff :

1) Feodor Federenko 1.pre-trial testimony
25.05.76 hartford usa
2.denaturalisation
USA june 78
3. Russian Trial - 1950?
2) Nikolay Shalayev ( guard and motorist) 1. protokol doprosa -
18.12.50 (federenko trial?)
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-126
3) Ivan Semyonovich Shevchenko 1. protokol doprosa -
08.09.44.
2. GARF 7445-2-34 p19
4) Pavel Leleko protokol doprosa -
20.02.45.
5) Nikolai Malagon 1. interrogation -
18.03.78 russia
(for demjanuk trial ?)
6) Prokofij Ryabtsev 1.protokol doprosa -
03.02.65.
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-121
7) Georgij Aleksandr Skidan 1. 26.05.50
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-141

D3) Treblinka - Jewish inmates :

1) Jankiel Wiernik - 8/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Eichmann Trial - 1961
2) Chil Rajchman - 9/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
(Yechiel Reichman) Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
YVT - 03/3816
3) Jerzy Rajgrotski -9/42-8/43 revolt jewish historical institute
1958 no25 106-108
4) Sonia Lewkowicz - 12/42-8/43 revolt Federenko Trial - USA 1978
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
YVT - 03/4181
5) Abraham Goldfarb - 8/42 - 8/43 revolt Protokol doprosa - 21.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P31
YVT - 03/1846
6) Chaim Sztajer -9/42 - 8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
7) Pinchas Epstein - 9/42-8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
Eichmann Trial - 1961
8) Samuel Rajzman - 9/42-8/43 Polish Commission 1946
note - mainly hearsay nuremberg - 1946
Yad Vashem Testimony
Federenko Trial - USA 1978
1964 Dussledorf
report 1944
YVT 03/547
9) Eliyahu Rosenberg - 9/42-8/43 revolt Statement Vienna 1947
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Eichmann Trial - 1961
YVA 03/4039
10) Abraham Bomba - 9/42 - 12/42 escaped
11) Abraham Kaszepicki - 8/42-9/42 for 18 days escaped report dec 42
12) Mendel Korytnicki - ?? Protokol doprosa - 23.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P56r
13) David Milgroim - 1942 escaped after a week report made in slovakia 8/43
note - unsure if hearsay OSS? In istanbul recd 1944
14) Leon Finklestein - 7/42 - 8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain bogs down debates by demanding a credible witness, without ever stating how he reliably and credibly assesses credibility. So far he calls any witness who states he saw a gas chamber, mass grave pyre a liar and then he believes three who think they were at TII, but do not describe anything that matches the inside of TII.

This thread is to force Turnagain to stay on topic. He will hate that.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

WillDak
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by WillDak »

Nessie:
I have gone as far to list all the witnesses, not just Jewish, but also Nazi and Polish, to what happened at TII
Good boy Nessie.

But your credibility is on the line here as well. (Uh oh!)

Nessie:
As a cop I know the usual mistakes witnesses make, due to the various frailties of memory.

The witnesses at the camps all stated that the bodies were exhumed, cremated and reburied.

I have always said there is proof of mass graves.

I do have proof mass graves were dug at TII.

The contents of the pits are still at the camps.

CS-C, Kola and Haimi have said they have found graves containing remains

All of those studies found large areas of cremated remains buried in the ground.

The archaeological work done has been scrutinised, cited and accepted by other archaeologists.

I have criminal investigatory, legal and court experience.

I produce forensic, archaeological evidence.

I have accepted the burden of proof.

Turnagain
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Yankel Wiernik's 1945 book "A Year in Treblinka" and his testimony at the Eichmann trial
Wiernik is a known liar. Nessie is asked to present one, just one, Jew eyewitness who gives credible evidence of the steam/gas/vacuum chambers, the graves and the exhumations and cremations. He can't do that so reposts his well worn laundry list of liars and charlatans.

Death Camps lists 21 different maps of T-II, all different. Wiernik built a wildly inaccurate model of T-II. Nessie claims that he was just "a poor model builder" so didn't get details correct. Nessie makes it plain that he has no credible Jew eyewitness to the steam/gas/vacuum chambers, the graves and the exhumations at cremations so posts his laundry lists. Nessie rants that I'm spamming the threads, am dishonest, etc. all in his vain attempt to weasel dodge that simple question. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

WillDak
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by WillDak »

Turnagain:
Wiernik is a known liar. Nessie is asked to present one, just one, Jew eyewitness who gives credible evidence of the steam/gas/vacuum chambers, the graves and the exhumations and cremations. He can't do that so reposts his well worn laundry list of liars and charlatans.


Doesn't that make Nessie's response a lie also?

Turnagain
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Turnagain bogs down debates by demanding a credible witness, without ever stating how he reliably and credibly assesses credibility. So far he calls any witness who states he saw a gas chamber, mass grave pyre a liar and then he believes three who think they were at TII, but do not describe anything that matches the inside of TII.
Quite simple, Nessie. Just name a witness who doesn't describe physically impossible events. For example, a witness that doesn't claim that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed or that reasonable amounts of fuel were used to cremate the cadavers. A witness who doesn't claim that 2-3,000 cadavers were piled on a grate that was 100 feet long. Just someone who tells a credible story of how Jews were murdered and their bodies disposed of at Treblinka.

Of course you can't do that. No such witness exists. Instead you claim that the very credible witnesses who state that they spent short periods of time in Treblinka and then left for other destinations are lying/mistaken about where they were.

There are credible witnesses who claim to have been in Treblinka and left for other destinations. Where is your credible witness to Treblinka being an extermination facility?

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Huntinger
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by Huntinger »

WillDak wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:48 pm
Doesn't that make Nessie's response a lie also?
This is the third thread this question has been posited. Nessie is well known to cherry pick, have alternative contradictory views depending on how cornered he is, or just simply mistaken. I would not call it lying, but certainly perfidious with some
frugality towards reality and hence the truth.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
Amt IV

WillDak
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by WillDak »

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:10 pm
WillDak wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:48 pm
Doesn't that make Nessie's response a lie also?
This is the third thread this question has been posited. Nessie is well known to cherry pick, have alternative contradictory views depending on how cornered he is, or just simply mistaken. I would not call it lying, but certainly perfidious with some
frugality towards reality and hence the truth.
On a scale of 1 to 10 - 1 being a pathetic, pathological liar and 10 being honest to a fault, how would you score Nessie?

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Huntinger
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by Huntinger »

WillDak wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:13 pm
On a scale of 1 to 10 - 1 being a pathetic, pathological liar and 10 being honest to a fault, how would you score Nessie?
He has his moments, sometimes he does give interesting information, other times up to his two major exile bans he was heading close to 3; lately he is about 4.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
Amt IV

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been-there
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Re: Witness credibility

Post by been-there »

WillDak wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:48 pm
Turnagain:
Wiernik is a known liar. Nessie is asked to present one, just one, Jew eyewitness who gives credible evidence of the steam/gas/vacuum chambers, the graves and the exhumations and cremations. He can't do that so reposts his well worn laundry list of liars and charlatans.


Doesn't that make Nessie's response a lie also?
I believe it is a combination of the following:
1. low intelligence (stupid),
2. emotional attachment to a belief he was indoctrinated with when young (irrationality),
3. lack of self-awareness (delusional),
4. egocentric erroneous belief in his own near-infallibility (dunning-kruger syndrome),
5. stubborn refusal to admit error (dishonest).

We all can exhibit some or all of these traits when experiencing cognitive dissonance.
In Nessie’s case, his misfortune is that not only does he exhibit ALL of these regarding the flaws of the Shoah narrative,
but he is handicapped by an extreme case of the first listed malady.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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