The flaws in denier arguments

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Huntinger
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:11 am
The answer is to bury the bodies of the people they killed, after they had stolen the last of their property. Photographic and geophysical evidence proves excavations at the AR camps unlike any other camps. Why did the Nazis dig up so much ground at those camps and not at the rest?
No evidence of any bodies, just talk, just hearsay. If juden were killed afterwards it was not the Reich. There is no evidence of digging. At Sobibor I have shown three photos 2 years apart each with no change.
Image
Below, Sobibor 1941
Image
Below Sobibor 1943
Image
Sobibor today
Image

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Turnagain
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

More ignorance from Nessie. He wrote:
The monuments cover 4.07 acres. Wiernik had to estimate the grave sizes. Denier suggestions that the camp was too small for mass graves is wrong.
Uh-huh, and nobody can find any of those 30+ feet deep graves. Hey, they all got "dug up" and disappeared.
You are assuming that number of bodies was buried.
I'm assuming nothing. Hoefle said that 713,555 Jews were delivered to Treblinka by December 31, 1942. The order to exhume and cremate the cadavers was given in March, 1943. Jews continued to arrive at an average rate of bout 17,000 per month through August 1943. Given time off for the holidays, 6-7,000 Jews arriving at Treblinka by the time the cremation order was given is most reasonable.
In any case, the earliest burial were July 1942. Those bodies would decompose and compress under the weight of bodies piled on top of them, making denier estimations of how many bodies can fit unreliable.
According to Wiernik an new grave would be opened every 1.6 months on average. In 1.6 months bodies aren't going to decompose enough to allow for a body density of 12-13 cadavers per cubic meter. Besides, how did Wiernik get the bodies to the middle of the 82 feet wide graves? It brings the image of flocks of Jew cadavers getting sailed through air like a covey of quail to give an even distribution of bodies in the alleged graves. Besides, if the graves were to be filled from both sides you would get a concomitant increase in the area necessary for a grave.
You are assuming all the graves were the same size as the biggest one he gave dimensions for.
Rajchman gave the dimensions of the graves as 12X30X50 meters with four being larger, no dimensions given. From his tale, one grave was capable of containing 250,000 cadavers; the one where the blood caught fire but no dimensions for that grave were given.
The answer is to bury the bodies of the people they killed...
Uh-huh, the Germans would have taken on such feats of excavation including the use of some marvelous mystery machine instead of digging more smaller graves that would have been within the capabilities of the readily available M&H draglines from T-1.
Photographic and geophysical evidence proves excavations at the AR camps unlike any other camps.
There are NO photographs or geophysical evidence of the gigantic mass graves at Treblinka. You lie, Nessie.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
I have shown (thanks to Blake) the area inside TII where the mass graves were dug and that it could easily fit huge mass graves, which when combined with cremations, explains how the Nazis managed to fit so many dead inside the camp.
Blake wrote:
So the concreted-over areas add up to about (2.65 + 1.44 = 4.09) acres = 1.65 hectares = 16,540.78 m2

There is no contiguous 2 hectare region (and no 2 hectare region at all) that can be said to have had 7.5m deep digging. Nessie's calculation of the volume of that is meaningless. Why he doesn't admit this is anyone's guess.
Where are the graves, Nessie?

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Nessie
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:46 am
More ignorance from Nessie. He wrote:
The monuments cover 4.07 acres. Wiernik had to estimate the grave sizes. Denier suggestions that the camp was too small for mass graves is wrong.
Uh-huh, and nobody can find any of those 30+ feet deep graves. Hey, they all got "dug up" and disappeared.
The witness who worked at the camp 1942-3 all state mass graves were dug and then exhumed to remove the bodies, which were cremated and mixed back into the ground.

1943 Kurt Franz photo proves as the camp was being closed down and dismantled, excavators were dumping and mixing earth at the site.

1944 aerial photo proves disturbed ground, in part planted over.

Witnesses speak to grave robbing at the site starting as soon as the Soviet arrived in 1944, including the use of explosives.

The 1945 site examination found that the ground had been dug over and cremated remains were spread over an area of around 2 hectares and in one place, down to 7m.

In the 1960s, again due to grave robbing, the site was tidied, exposed remains buried and most disturbed areas concreted over, covering 1.65 hectares.

The 2014 site geophysical surveys found underground disturbances around the concrete memorial and walk over surveys noted, especially after it had rained, that cremains could still be found on the surface of the ground.

You have been told all of that before, you know that to any normal person that is overwhelming evidence to prove large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains. Because of that, you childishly try and dismiss that evidence and pretend it means the original graves are claimed to have been replaced by undisturbed ground :roll:
You are assuming that number of bodies was buried.
I'm assuming nothing. Hoefle said that 713,555 Jews were delivered to Treblinka by December 31, 1942. The order to exhume and cremate the cadavers was given in March, 1943. Jews continued to arrive at an average rate of bout 17,000 per month through August 1943. Given time off for the holidays, 6-7,000 Jews arriving at Treblinka by the time the cremation order was given is most reasonable.
There were reports from Polish rail workers of cremations starting in 1942.
In any case, the earliest burial were July 1942. Those bodies would decompose and compress under the weight of bodies piled on top of them, making denier estimations of how many bodies can fit unreliable.
According to Wiernik an new grave would be opened every 1.6 months on average. In 1.6 months bodies aren't going to decompose enough to allow for a body density of 12-13 cadavers per cubic meter. Besides, how did Wiernik get the bodies to the middle of the 82 feet wide graves? It brings the image of flocks of Jew cadavers getting sailed through air like a covey of quail to give an even distribution of bodies in the alleged graves. Besides, if the graves were to be filled from both sides you would get a concomitant increase in the area necessary for a grave.
How do you know what happens to a body after 1.6 months of being exposed to ever increasing pressure as it decomposes? The answer is that you do not know, but it is safe to assume the body will decompose and all liquids will be squeezed out and there will be no gaps. There is a photo of the Katyn graves here;

http://pamietamkatyn1940.pl/en/blog/his ... maddena-2/

Those bodies were left with their clothes on, but they are still crushed down so it is hard to see where one body ends and another starts. Denier estimates of how many bodies fit do not take into account crushing.

As to how the graves were filled, bodies would pile up from the sides and layers of lime were added to increase decomposition, so the centre would fill up from the sides.
You are assuming all the graves were the same size as the biggest one he gave dimensions for.
Rajchman gave the dimensions of the graves as 12X30X50 meters with four being larger, no dimensions given. From his tale, one grave was capable of containing 250,000 cadavers; the one where the blood caught fire but no dimensions for that grave were given.
You took one grave size and applied it to all the graves to give the most exaggerated grave sizes you could. They would still fit inside the camp.
The answer is to bury the bodies of the people they killed...
Uh-huh, the Germans would have taken on such feats of excavation including the use of some marvelous mystery machine instead of digging more smaller graves that would have been within the capabilities of the readily available M&H draglines from T-1.
That just means if the witnesses exaggerated the size of the graves, you have admitted the draglines could have dug them :roll:

Add it your exaggeration of how many bodies can fit, because you forget about crushing and your claims of impossibility are debunked. :lol:
Photographic and geophysical evidence proves excavations at the AR camps unlike any other camps.
There are NO photographs or geophysical evidence of the gigantic mass graves at Treblinka. You lie, Nessie.
There are photographs and geophysical evidence that prove large areas of excavated ground. Those excavations are where the original graves full of bodies were located. Once the Nazis had dug out the bodies and mixed cremains back into the ground, then grave robbers further disturbed the ground and then the site was memorialised, it is hardly surprising that there are no neat rectangular mass graves full of corpses, as was found at Katyn or dug for the dead at Bergen-Belsen.

By proving large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains at TII, it is proved that the witness claims about mass graves that were exhumed and cremains mixed back into the ground are true.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:10 am
Nessie wrote:
I have shown (thanks to Blake) the area inside TII where the mass graves were dug and that it could easily fit huge mass graves, which when combined with cremations, explains how the Nazis managed to fit so many dead inside the camp.
Blake wrote:
So the concreted-over areas add up to about (2.65 + 1.44 = 4.09) acres = 1.65 hectares = 16,540.78 m2

There is no contiguous 2 hectare region (and no 2 hectare region at all) that can be said to have had 7.5m deep digging. Nessie's calculation of the volume of that is meaningless. Why he doesn't admit this is anyone's guess.
Where are the graves, Nessie?
The original graves are now what is the disturbed ground that is under and around the memorial.

By digging into those graves to get at the bodies, then mixing cremains back into the ground and dumping more earth on top and then the actions of grave robbers and the memorial builders, the original neat rectangular graves are now irregularly disturbed ground.

The 1944 aerial photo shows traces of rectangular outlines where the Lazarette was located, with its smaller graves. That is where the two smaller sections of the memorial are now located. The area where the main graves were located is the disturbed ground that Kurt Franz' excavator photos were working at and was planted over. That is where the larger part of the memorial with the trees inside it, is now located.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie repeats his fantasies complete with the report by the communist stooge of the NKVD's department to fabricate atrocity tales about the Germans. He goes on to equate the burial times that supposedly took place at Treblinka with the burial times for the cadavers at Katyn forest. The Soviets murdered the Poles in April and May of 1940. The Germans commenced exhumations of those bodies in April of 1943. Hey, a month and a half and three years, what's the diff? For Nessie, no difference at all.
More fantasy from Nessie:
As to how the graves were filled, bodies would pile up from the sides and layers of lime were added to increase decomposition, so the centre would fill up from the sides.
Who said that lime was added? Name, quote and source, please. Neither does that explain how the cadavers made it from the edge of the grave to the center of it, a distance of about 40 feet. Wiernik claimed that a narrow gauge rail track was laid down to transport the bodies to the graves. That implies that the bodies were flung/launched from only one side of the grave to the opposite side, a distance of about 80 feet. Well, if it happened it was possible. Just imagine the air full of flailing cadavers.
You took one grave size and applied it to all the graves to give the most exaggerated grave sizes you could. They would still fit inside the camp.
*sigh* No, I'm just quoting what Rajchman and Wiernik said. Nobody is trying to maximize the size of the graves. Rajchman said that the graves were 12X30X50 meters with four (4) graves that were larger than that. He also claimed that one grave was large enough to accommodate 250,000 cadavers. Those were the cadavers whose blood accidentally caught fire.

Nessie just happens to leave out the fact that such graves would require a stockpile of ex of ~60 feet high. Oh, that's right, the marvelous mystery machine accomplished that. The marvelous mystery machine that was secretly shipped into and out of Treblinka with no record of that happening or even any eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen it. Not even good ol' Zabecki, the ever so reliable partisan claimed to have seen it.
That just means if the witnesses exaggerated the size of the graves, you have admitted the draglines could have dug them :roll:

Add it your exaggeration of how many bodies can fit, because you forget about crushing and your claims of impossibility are debunked. :lol:
Uh-huh, the M&H mB could stockpile about 5 cubic meters of earth per meter of stockpile. Rajchman claimed that about 360 cubic meters of earth was stockpiled per meter of stockpile. Yep, just a "little exaggeration". Maybe just a little "mistake" thrown in for good measure.
There are photographs and geophysical evidence that prove large areas of excavated ground.
There is NO, zip, zero, nada geophysical evidence of any 30-40 feet deep pits at Treblinka. NONE! Claiming that such evidence exists is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

OK, Nessie, you have declared all of the eyewitnesses to be mistaken about the size of the graves. So tell us what size were the alleged mass graves at Treblinka? Tell us why bodies buried for about a month and a half would be in the same condition as cadavers buried for three (3) years. Do you have a Goldilocks explanation for the grave size? Not to small, not to large, just right for the number of corpses they contained but nothing specific? Let's see what ya' got, Nessie.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:10 pm
Nessie repeats his fantasies complete with the report by the communist stooge of the NKVD's department to fabricate atrocity tales about the Germans. He goes on to equate the burial times that supposedly took place at Treblinka with the burial times for the cadavers at Katyn forest. The Soviets murdered the Poles in April and May of 1940. The Germans commenced exhumations of those bodies in April of 1943. Hey, a month and a half and three years, what's the diff? For Nessie, no difference at all.
You are dodging my point about pressure crushing the bodies at the bottom of the graves. That is not a fantasy, it happened at the Katyn graves as proved by the photos of the bodies and it would have also happened at TII.
More fantasy from Nessie:
As to how the graves were filled, bodies would pile up from the sides and layers of lime were added to increase decomposition, so the centre would fill up from the sides.
Who said that lime was added? Name, quote and source, please.
It is from this source about space in the graves;

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/o ... ss-graves/

I may have misremembered, the lime could be to keep the smell down, not aid decomposition.
Neither does that explain how the cadavers made it from the edge of the grave to the center of it, a distance of about 40 feet.
The source above also quotes a prisoner from Chelmno who stated;

"“The corpses were thrown one on top of another, like rubbish on a heap. We got hold of them by the feet and the hair. At the edge of the ditch stood two men who threw in the bodies. In the ditch stood an additional two men who packed them in head to feet, facing downwards. If any space was left, a child was pushed in."
Wiernik claimed that a narrow gauge rail track was laid down to transport the bodies to the graves. That implies that the bodies were flung/launched from only one side of the grave to the opposite side, a distance of about 80 feet. Well, if it happened it was possible. Just imagine the air full of flailing cadavers.
You are being stupid, the bodies were just dumped in from the side or carried in and laid out.
You took one grave size and applied it to all the graves to give the most exaggerated grave sizes you could. They would still fit inside the camp.
*sigh* No, I'm just quoting what Rajchman and Wiernik said. Nobody is trying to maximize the size of the graves. Rajchman said that the graves were 12X30X50 meters with four (4) graves that were larger than that. He also claimed that one grave was large enough to accommodate 250,000 cadavers. Those were the cadavers whose blood accidentally caught fire.
Those graves would still fit in the area at TII.
Nessie just happens to leave out the fact that such graves would require a stockpile of ex of ~60 feet high. Oh, that's right, the marvelous mystery machine accomplished that. The marvelous mystery machine that was secretly shipped into and out of Treblinka with no record of that happening or even any eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen it. Not even good ol' Zabecki, the ever so reliable partisan claimed to have seen it.
You never did explain why any witnesses would regard excavators as the most distinctive and interesting thing to see in a death camp with gas chambers and mass graves. It is not significant that we do not know where the excavators came from, or their exact make and model.
That just means if the witnesses exaggerated the size of the graves, you have admitted the draglines could have dug them :roll:

Add it your exaggeration of how many bodies can fit, because you forget about crushing and your claims of impossibility are debunked. :lol:
Uh-huh, the M&H mB could stockpile about 5 cubic meters of earth per meter of stockpile. Rajchman claimed that about 360 cubic meters of earth was stockpiled per meter of stockpile. Yep, just a "little exaggeration". Maybe just a little "mistake" thrown in for good measure.
Rajchman made no such claim, yiou are just making up crap as you obsess about the excavators at TII, as if you have stumbled across some earth shattering evidence :lol:
There are photographs and geophysical evidence that prove large areas of excavated ground.
There is NO, zip, zero, nada geophysical evidence of any 30-40 feet deep pits at Treblinka. NONE! Claiming that such evidence exists is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
You are lying, the C S-C lead survey recorded underground disturbances at the camp around the memorials.

You just lie and repeat your debunked arguments from incredulity.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:34 pm
OK, Nessie, you have declared all of the eyewitnesses to be mistaken about the size of the graves. So tell us what size were the alleged mass graves at Treblinka?
I don't know the precise sizes. You know the witness estimations and the dimensions found during the C S-C led survey are in her report.
Tell us why bodies buried for about a month and a half would be in the same condition as cadavers buried for three (3) years.
I was not claiming they would be in the same condition, I was pointing out that denier estimations as to how many bodies fit in a grave do not take into account decomposition and pressure crushing the lower bodies.
Do you have a Goldilocks explanation for the grave size? Not to small, not to large, just right for the number of corpses they contained but nothing specific? Let's see what ya' got, Nessie.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4334
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
You are dodging my point about pressure crushing the bodies at the bottom of the graves.
Yep, pressure is pressure and graves is graves and it don't make no difference how long the bodies are buried.
I may have misremembered, the lime could be to keep the smell down, not aid decomposition.
There is no mention of lime in your source article. None.
The source above also quotes a prisoner from Chelmno who stated;

"“The corpses were thrown one on top of another, like rubbish on a heap. We got hold of them by the feet and the hair. At the edge of the ditch stood two men who threw in the bodies. In the ditch stood an additional two men who packed them in head to feet, facing downwards. If any space was left, a child was pushed in."
Wait a minute, everyone got their hair cut off before gassing so how did your witness get hold of them by the hair? Then we have the two guys who threw the bodies into the ditch and the two who packed them head to feet. Those guys doing the throwing must have been some stout dudes to be able to sail a cadaver almost a hundred feet. Then those guys in the graves must have been some very nimble fellows to be able to walk across a giant pile of cadavers without losing their footing.

Nessie and the HDOT klowns solemnly quote this alleged eyewitness's bizarre claims and demand that we believe him.
You are being stupid, the bodies were just dumped in from the side or carried in and laid out.
Nessie then contradicts the witness he just quoted. Now the cadavers were just dumped into the grave and the very nimble work crews carried them to the far side of the grave across the arms, legs and torsos of previous victims. Hey, I know! "What if" the work crews were wearing something like snowshoes to help them keep their balance? Then they "coulda" walked across the tangle of arms and legs without stumbling.
You never did explain why any witnesses would regard excavators as the most distinctive and interesting thing to see in a death camp with gas chambers and mass graves. It is not significant that we do not know where the excavators came from, or their exact make and model.
Nessie resorts to the outright lie. It was just a giant marvelous mystery machine that nobody had any records for or remarked on it's presence at Treblinka. A dragline with a clamshell would require at least a 100 foot boom to build a 60 feet high stockpile. Such a boom would have to be disassembled and transported on a separate flatcar from the excavator. No records for that shipment exist. Nobody remarked on its existence. Suuuuure, that's just so believable.
Rajchman made no such claim, yiou are just making up crap as you obsess about the excavators at TII, as if you have stumbled across some earth shattering evidence :lol:
Ah, the joys of innumeracy. Rajchman claimed that the graves were 12 meters deep and 30 meters in width. That equals 360 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave. With a 45 degree angle of repose for the sandy soil, that results in a stockpile ~60 feet high. The alleged size of the graves and the equipment necessary to both excavate and stockpile the ex is "shattering evidence" against your holyhoax.
You are lying, the C S-C lead survey recorded underground disturbances at the camp around the memorials.
OK, then show us GPR scans, core samples or something showing 10-12 meter or 30-40 feet deep pits.

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