The flaws in denier arguments

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Huntinger
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie at Klowns wrote:Part of the evidence for property sorting at the AR camps, since no photos were allowed there
And yet we have Johann Niemann's photos of Sobibor.
Image
BTW this area, lager one is supposed to be full of buildings;' where did they go' :mrgreen:

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:44 pm
Nessie wrote:
You have no evidence he lied.
Lukaszkiewcz claimed that the mass graves, "No longer existed". That's bullshit.
You misunderstand him. He said;

"Decision:
The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the works carried out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rainfall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investigations, in view of all these facts to stop the work on the territory of the former death camp Treblinka.
The Examining Judge
Łukaszkiewicz."

That means they searched for mass graves of bodies in graves and he concluded that, as the witnesses had claimed, the Nazis had dug up the bodies and cremated them, so it was decided to end the search. Lukaszkiewicz was checking to see if what the witnesses claimed was true or not. He found that the witness claims of a mass cover up at the site, whereby bodies were burned to prevent a body count, identification and cause of death, as had happened at Katyn, were true.

He was not prepared to just believe the witnesses, he wanted to search the former camp site to see if what the witnesses had said was true or not. That is the sign of a credible, reliable investigation, he looked to see if the physical evidence corroborated the witnesses, it did.
The part that the memorial and the trees limit what can be surveyed. Despite that, underground disturbances were still found, which is consistent with the Nazis had been digging at the camp.
If the area to be surveyed is so limited, why did CS-C promise that she would return to Treblinka and locate the graves?
I have told you this before, your memory is shot. Have you genuinely got a medical problem? The survey equipment available was only capable of a certain depth and it could not cope with the concrete memorial area. She plans to return, when or if better survey equipment becomes available.
Why wouldn't latrines, garbage pits, etc. be dug?
They would and certain pits were identified as likely that, for example, digs found personal items in some small pits. It is all in the report, sorry you cannot read it, but it is not my problem you lack undertsnading :roll:
Where is your proof that ALL of the holes were dug by Germans?
All the Polish and German witnesses who said that the camp was built by the Germans and a pre war map that shows the land was just farmland.
In your opinion, based on how you interpret their words. For example, you claim hermetic sealing makes a gassing impossible. I say it makes sense to stop leaks and the witnesses do not literally mean the chamber was a perfect seal where nothing could get in or out.
Over a dozen witnesses claim that the gas/vacuum chambers were hermetically sealed. It's also claimed that the gas chambers functioned as vacuum chambers. Finito. End of story.
One eye witness said an attempt was made to pump air out and he thought before gas was pumped in, air was pumped out. That is just one, not dozens. The rest were not eyewitnesses. The hermetic sealing was just a reference to the hermetically sealed door being closed. It does not mean the entire chamber was now a perfect hermetic seal. You have misunderstood.
You miss out hyperbole, mistakes, exaggerations, estimations...
Sell your excuses and weasel words down the street, Nessie.
Courts all accept that witnesses make mistakes, exaggerate etc. You are unique in thinking that does not happen.
You are mixing hearsay and eyewitness evidence together, which is dishonest of you.
Bullshit! Those are claims made by eyewitnesses.
No they are not. You claimed Rachael Auerbach was an eyewitness! She was never at the camp when it was open :roll:
The denier methodology of assessing witness evidence and descriptions of how gassings etc worked is not credible or reliable because...
More bullshit. The lies of the alleged eyewitnesses are unproved by both the impossibility of their claims and the lack of any evidence for those claims. For example: It's claimed that huge mass graves existed. No huge mass graves have ever been found.
That is because those original graves were dug up and the remains of that excavation work have been found.
Whole cadavers were exhumed with a clamshell. That's just flat impossible.
There is no primary or eyewitness evidence a clamshell was used. You are yet again getting the different types of evidence mixed up, :lol:
It's claimed that ~850,000 bodies were cremated. No such amounts of cremains have ever been located. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
An area of 2 hectares of ground, at one point 7m deep, containing cremains mixed into the ground and cremains still being found on the surface 70 years later is evidence of a significant amount of cremated remains at the site.

You genuinely do need to see a doctor. There is something wrong with your memory, that you ask me questions, I answer them and then a few days later, you ask me the same question again. Seriously, get help.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:57 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:00 pm
The denier methodology of assessing witness evidence and descriptions of how gassings etc worked is not credible or reliable because;

1 - it fails to have a way of assessing those who say there was gassing, but do not describe how it was done
2 - presumes a truthful witness will know precisely how it was done and would not make any mistakes or misremember
3 - presumes witnesses had full access to know all details
4 - is biased towards trying to find reasons to not believe the witnesses
5 - it is based on the logical fallacy of argument from incredulity, whereby because the denier finds it incredible, therefore it cannot have happened
6 - it ignores evidence that what is claimed to have happened, did happen.
It appears this poster has few means to discern factual witness statements with troublesome emotional hearsay; the fact that it corroborates what others are saying means nothing, mass hysteria is a common phenomena.
The witnesses are corroborated by documents recording mass arrivals and physical examinations of the camps showing large areas of cremated remains and the remains of structures where gas chambers were claimed to be.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Judge Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz was a member of the Main Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes in Poland (Główna Komisja Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce).The commission, first established in 1945, predates the Institute, which was created in 1998. Poland at the time of this investigation prior to 1946 was a Soviet Puppet State.; in fact the Polish Peoples Republic was not formalized until 1947; at the time of the investigation Poland was purely Soviet territory. The commission was created in the aftermath of World War II under leadership of the Polish communist and Auschwitz survivor Alfred Fiderkiewicz, to investigate Nazi crimes against the Polish nation.

The commission was under the auspices of the The extraordinary state commission who had a regular staff of 32 thousand and 7 million part timers. This was formed in 1942, the Polish version a subsidiary of this. Nothing this commission or the Polish one is of value due to their attempts to forge documents to frame the Reich at Katyn.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

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What part of, "The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today..." don't you understand, Nessie?

Nessie wrote:
The survey equipment available was only capable of a certain depth and it could not cope with the concrete memorial area. She plans to return, when or if better survey equipment becomes available.
Concrete is no barrier to a GPR signal and antennas for varying depth were available in 2012. GPR is routinely used to find wiring, water mains, etc. under concrete. Nessie pulls one out of his arse.
They would and certain pits were identified as likely that, for example, digs found personal items in some small pits. It is all in the report...
In that case you should be aware that no holes conform to the dimensions described by the eyewitnesses. No mass graves have been found. NONE, zip, zero, nada. What can't you understand about that, Nessie?
One eye witness said an attempt was made to pump air out and he thought before gas was pumped in, air was pumped out.
There were about a half dozen witnesses who claim that the air was pumped out of the gas chamber. That doesn't include Auerbach. I've previously listed them so if you want the names then YOU go back through the posts and find them. You discount Bomba although he worked inside the gas chambers so should have known how they operated. Yes, I'm aware that Bomba was lying but that was his testimony.
No they are not. You claimed Rachael Auerbach was an eyewitness! She was never at the camp when it was open.
No, I've never claimed that Auerbach was an eyewitness. She was a holyhoax historian so according to you, she was corroborating the claims of eyewitnesses that vacuum chambers existed at Treblinka.
That is because those original graves were dug up and the remains of that excavation work have been found.
Ooh! Nessie is back to his original idiotic claim that the graves were made to disappear by "digging them up".
There is no primary or eyewitness evidence a clamshell was used. You are yet again getting the different types of evidence mixed up,
From Wiernik's book, "A Year in Treblinka":
This is the way in which he got the inferno started. He put a machine for exhuming the corpses into operation, an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time. A fire grate made of railroad tracks was placed on concrete foundations 100 to 150 meters in length. The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire.
Wiernik goes on to say:
The cremation of corpses had been going on in Camp No. 2 while we had been away, but as there were so many of them, the end was not yet in sight. Two more machines for exhuming corpses were brought in, additional fire grates were constructed and the work was speeded up. The fire grates took up almost the entire yard. It was midsummer by then, and the fire grates gave off a terrific heat, turning the place into an inferno. We felt as if we ourselves were on fire.

A dragline can use two different types of buckets. A clamshell or a bridle bucket. They can also be fitted with grapnels but those aren't buckets. Are you suggesting that a bridle bucket was used to exhume the cadavers?

BTW, note how Wiernik's numerous magic Jew barbeques were originally from 100 to 150 meters long and took up, "almost the entire yard". Curious how they shrunk down to to two little 30 meter long grates for his model.
An area of 2 hectares of ground, at one point 7m deep, containing cremains mixed into the ground and cremains still being found on the surface 70 years later is evidence of a significant amount of cremated remains at the site.
Bone fragments, cremains, don't degrade. If there were two hectares of cremains mixed with dirt then that area can be readily found by sampling for bone fragments. Tons of carbonized bone fragments should be found by simply sifting the dirt from that two hectare area. Lukaszkiewicz's claim that there were two hectares of carbonized bone mixed with dirt is obvious bullshit.
You genuinely do need to see a doctor.
LOL! Nessie is plagiarizing Blake's schtick.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:25 am
What part of, "The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today..." don't you understand, Nessie?
I understand it all. He is stating that the witnesses are correct, the original mass graves had been exhumed and the bodies burned and instead of regular cut rectangular mass graves containing bodies, there is a large area of disturbed ground containing cremated remains.
Nessie wrote:
The survey equipment available was only capable of a certain depth and it could not cope with the concrete memorial area. She plans to return, when or if better survey equipment becomes available.
Concrete is no barrier to a GPR signal and antennas for varying depth were available in 2012. GPR is routinely used to find wiring, water mains, etc. under concrete. Nessie pulls one out of his arse.
How do you run a GPR survey over this;

Image
They would and certain pits were identified as likely that, for example, digs found personal items in some small pits. It is all in the report...
In that case you should be aware that no holes conform to the dimensions described by the eyewitnesses. No mass graves have been found. NONE, zip, zero, nada. What can't you understand about that, Nessie?
I understand the reason why that is. The area of ground that can be surveyed is very limited due to the size of the memorial.

Image

The bulk of the original graves are underneath the larger section of memorial to the left. Traces of the ends of the graves were found round the edges of that part of the memorial. This article overlays the areas of disturbed ground found onto the 1944 aerial photo and a modern aerial photo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

The 1944 aerial photo shows that there is disturbed ground on the right at the edge of the disturbed ground inside the camp. That area of yellow corresponds with the gap between the trees and the memorial. The areas of yellow to the left are round the smaller part of the memorial and are in the Lazarette part of the camp, which also has some mass graves.

Image

The bulk of the original mass graves and the disturbed ground is under the memorials.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:12 am
The bulk of the original graves are underneath the larger section of memorial to the left. Traces of the ends of the graves were found round the edges of that part of the memorial. This article overlays the areas of disturbed ground found onto the 1944 aerial photo and a modern aerial photo.
There is an assumption of graves before the evidence is examined. This kind of posting from nessie is hardly unbiased but full of impropriety.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

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Turnagain wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:25 am
....
One eye witness said an attempt was made to pump air out and he thought before gas was pumped in, air was pumped out.
There were about a half dozen witnesses who claim that the air was pumped out of the gas chamber. That doesn't include Auerbach. I've previously listed them so if you want the names then YOU go back through the posts and find them. You discount Bomba although he worked inside the gas chambers so should have known how they operated. Yes, I'm aware that Bomba was lying but that was his testimony.
The people you previously listed were not eyewitnesses to the gas chambers. The only surviving prisoners who clearly state they worked at the gas chambers and saw gassings and removed bodies were Rajchman, Wiernik and Rosenberg. The rest worked elsewhere in the camp and were repeating a rumour about the use of a vacuum. I did go through them for you, you pretended to forget and then demand I do it again :roll:
No they are not. You claimed Rachael Auerbach was an eyewitness! She was never at the camp when it was open.
No, I've never claimed that Auerbach was an eyewitness. She was a holyhoax historian so according to you, she was corroborating the claims of eyewitnesses that vacuum chambers existed at Treblinka.
No, you misunderstand, she is not corroborating any witness and I never said she did.
That is because those original graves were dug up and the remains of that excavation work have been found.
Ooh! Nessie is back to his original idiotic claim that the graves were made to disappear by "digging them up".
No, you misunderstand, my claim is that regular, rectangular mass graves were dug into to remove bodies and then the cremains and earth was mixed back in and then the ground was further disturbed again by grave robbers, including Soviets who used explosives. By the 1945 survey, the ground had been very mixed up, hence neat rectangular graves cannot be located.

I have told you that before, you forget, as usual. :roll:
There is no primary or eyewitness evidence a clamshell was used. You are yet again getting the different types of evidence mixed up,
From Wiernik's book, "A Year in Treblinka":
This is the way in which he got the inferno started. He put a machine for exhuming the corpses into operation, an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time. A fire grate made of railroad tracks was placed on concrete foundations 100 to 150 meters in length. The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire.
Wiernik goes on to say:
The cremation of corpses had been going on in Camp No. 2 while we had been away, but as there were so many of them, the end was not yet in sight. Two more machines for exhuming corpses were brought in, additional fire grates were constructed and the work was speeded up. The fire grates took up almost the entire yard. It was midsummer by then, and the fire grates gave off a terrific heat, turning the place into an inferno. We felt as if we ourselves were on fire.

A dragline can use two different types of buckets. A clamshell or a bridle bucket. They can also be fitted with grapnels but those aren't buckets. Are you suggesting that a bridle bucket was used to exhume the cadavers?
As I said, no witness reports the use of a clamshell, thank you for finally agreeing with that. Wiernik does not say the make, model or type of excavator used.
BTW, note how Wiernik's numerous magic Jew barbeques were originally from 100 to 150 meters long and took up, "almost the entire yard". Curious how they shrunk down to to two little 30 meter long grates for his model.
Not really, his model was not built to scale.
An area of 2 hectares of ground, at one point 7m deep, containing cremains mixed into the ground and cremains still being found on the surface 70 years later is evidence of a significant amount of cremated remains at the site.
Bone fragments, cremains, don't degrade. If there were two hectares of cremains mixed with dirt then that area can be readily found by sampling for bone fragments. Tons of carbonized bone fragments should be found by simply sifting the dirt from that two hectare area. Lukaszkiewicz's claim that there were two hectares of carbonized bone mixed with dirt is obvious bullshit.
The ground was that disturbed when Lukaszkiewicz examined the camp that it was obvious the volume of mixed remains was huge. They reported it still smelled. That is why the memorial was built as it was, to cover over the amount of cremains. That cremains can still be found on the surface 70 odd years later is more evidence of the volume of cremains.
You genuinely do need to see a doctor.
LOL! Nessie is plagiarizing Blake's schtick.
Why do you keep on asking the same already answered questions? There is something wrong with your memory. You behave as if you have early dementia, whereby your memory is affected.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:42 am
Why do you keep on asking the same already answered questions? There is something wrong with your memory. You behave as if you have early dementia, whereby your memory is affected.
There is no enhancement by research of Nessies post, just more slobbering of dribble on the matt. However the response above shows the disconnection. Add nothing but abuse...

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie claims that the graves disappeared when the bodies were exhumed. Nessie has his dunce cap firmly in place.

Nessie wrote:
The bulk of the original mass graves and the disturbed ground is under the memorials.
How many acres does that investigatory barrier cover?

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