The flaws in denier arguments

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Nessie
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The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

To stop a thread going off topic and discuss further the flaws in denier arguments;

viewtopic.php?p=181360#p181360
Turnagain wrote:LOL! Suuuuure, Nessie, the fact that it would be utterly impossible for the M&H draglines to dig the mass graves as claimed and shown in the models is just "a minor part". Of course CS-C can be ignored for saying that the M&H equipment was used since she wasn't an eyewitness but her claim that the rabbit holes were graves is 100% accurate. Really? Was she an eyewitness to the eeevul Narzis pitching cadavers into those pits?
The excavator argument is stupid. At best all you have done is show that a certain excavator that was at TII when the camp was being dismantled and covered up, was not used to dig the graves. Since no eye witness said it was the M&H dragline that was used to dig the graves, that does not matter. In any case, it has been shown how that type of excavator could be used to dig the graves, just not to the size witnesses estimated. Your argument does not therefore mean no graves were ever dug at TII.

You are correct that those who are not eye witnesses can be ignored.
Mattogno, Graf and Kues have thoroughly debunked your so-called documentary evidence and the fairy tales and fantasies of your "witnesses" don't mean jack squat. You have nothing to support your thesis that over a million Jews were murdered at A-B any more than Hunt has for his thesis that Jews who died in transit formed the basis for the lies you espouse.
M, G and K have used a flawed methodology. No academic discipline dismisses the evidence for one thing to then claim another thing has been proved. Only denial does that and no denier can explain how their methodology is credible and reliable.
Hopefully, you can see and understand that you have no more than Hunt to support your thesis. Hunt has the advantage of at least presenting a reasonable alternative to your fantasies.
Huntinger presents speculation. Only denial argues;

A is evidenced to have happened
B is speculated to have happened
Therefore B.

Indeed, denial demands belief in something that cannot be evidenced to have happened. That is totally bizarre and obviously flawed.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

viewtopic.php?p=181211#p181211

The post deniers cannot cope with, so it gets altered and misrepresented;

A - there is evidence of gassings and deniers only ever discuss that evidence.
B - there is no evidence that instead of being gassed, those people left the camps to be accommodated elsewhere and deniers dodge discussing that lack of evidence.

But denial demands belief in B and no one can give a credible reason for that!
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
The excavator argument is stupid. At best all you have done is show that a certain excavator that was at TII when the camp was being dismantled and covered up, was not used to dig the graves.
No other excavators were available to dig the graves and those draglines were incapable of digging the graves as described by the eyewitnesses. You posit some imaginary mystery machine of unknown make and model to dig the graves. Do you have any evidence of that? Of course not. Neither do you have any graves as described by the alleged eyewitnesses. Both the graves and the machine(s) that dug them are imaginary.

There are photos of the M&H draglines working at T-I, the penal camp and quarry but no photos of either machine working at T-II, the alleged extermination camp. Both the Wiernik and Laponder models show excavations that would be impossible for the M&H draglines to accomplish.

So, Nessie, you have no evidence of any graves or of any machine capable of digging such graves.
M, G and K have used a flawed methodology.
I call bullshit. Just because you have no means of refuting their findings doesn't mean that their methodology is flawed.
A - there is evidence of gassings and deniers only ever discuss that evidence.
B - there is no evidence that instead of being gassed, those people left the camps to be accommodated elsewhere and deniers dodge discussing that lack of evidence.

But denial demands belief in B and no one can give a credible reason for that!
There is also evidence of steam and vacuum chambers of the same quality as for the gas chambers. The graves, exhumations and the cremations are also disputed.

Of course there's evidence that deportees left Treblinka, sometimes by entire trainloads. Nessie simply claims that didn't happen. The witnesses were either lying or mistaken. Huntinger's evidence that the AR camps were, in fact, customs facilities is more evidence that Nessie ignores.

Bottom line, the alleged lack of evidence only works when it suits Nessie's narrative.

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Nessie
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:05 pm
Nessie wrote:
The excavator argument is stupid. At best all you have done is show that a certain excavator that was at TII when the camp was being dismantled and covered up, was not used to dig the graves.
No other excavators were available to dig the graves....
Start off by proving that.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:05 pm
....
M, G and K have used a flawed methodology.
I call bullshit. Just because you have no means of refuting their findings doesn't mean that their methodology is flawed.
Show another form of investigatory method, that claims by disproving A, you have therefore proved B.

That methodology certainly does not apply to the study of history, archaeology or forensics, the primary methods used to find out what happened in the past. Deniers sometimes waffle on about science, as if they are still in primary school and there is a very basic subject called science, but no methodology in any scientific subject involves debunking the evidence for A happening and then concluding, therefore B must have happened.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:05 pm
....
A - there is evidence of gassings and deniers only ever discuss that evidence.
B - there is no evidence that instead of being gassed, those people left the camps to be accommodated elsewhere and deniers dodge discussing that lack of evidence.

But denial demands belief in B and no one can give a credible reason for that!
There is also evidence of steam and vacuum chambers of the same quality as for the gas chambers. The graves, exhumations and the cremations are also disputed.

Of course there's evidence that deportees left Treblinka, sometimes by entire trainloads. Nessie simply claims that didn't happen. The witnesses were either lying or mistaken. Huntinger's evidence that the AR camps were, in fact, customs facilities is more evidence that Nessie ignores.

Bottom line, the alleged lack of evidence only works when it suits Nessie's narrative.
The steam and vacuum claims are hearsay and in any case, still involve deaths inside a chamber, so that is like witnesses agreeing someone was shot, but disagreeing on the type of gun that was used. Most importantly, all eye witnesses agree an engine was used to gas people, with one witness thinking the engine pumped the air out first, before the gas was pumped in. That is like witnesses agreeing someone was shot by a handgun, by disagreeing on what model of handgun.

Disputing the graves, exhumations and cremations is based on disputing the way witnesses described how they worked. No actual evidence is presented to back up denier claims.

You are being dishonest claiming that I deny that some left TII. You need to start being honest in your debating. There is evidence that about 1% of those who arrived at TII then left to work at other camps and there are three witnesses who say they stayed at TII, but there is evidence that they were in fact at the nearby transit camp at Malkinia. You ignore that, as you have no evidence to counter it, especially since you are switching from all Jews lie, to some tell the truth.

The claims about the AR camps being customs posts are moronically stupid. It is based on the recent Sobibor photos that have been published, which show it was made up to look like a customs stop. There is no evidence from witnesses who worked there, or documents, to show that Sobibor had any actual customs function. There is no evidence that TII, Belzec or Chelmno were also made to appear as if they were customs posts. Action Reinhardt proves that the seizure of Jewish property was part of the overall plan for the Jews. The AR camps were the last part of that seizure, which involved the seizure of personal items, including all clothing, suitcases, dentures, walking sticks and even gold from teeth. Those items were sent under AR to Lublin (Majdanek) to be sorted and sold. That still leaves the Nazis with the people, who they have stripped naked and stolen everything from. What then happened to those people?

Denial demands that we believe by the end of 1942, the Nazis had transported and accommodated 1.27 million people, from whom they had stolen everything, without leaving any evidence as to where those people went. :roll:
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:01 pm

Denial demands that we believe by the end of 1942, the Nazis had transported and accommodated 1.27 million people, from whom they had stolen everything, without leaving any evidence as to where those people went. :roll:
Wrong..1.47 million. There is a thread on this... stick to it.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:01 pm
There is no evidence that TII, Belzec or Chelmno were also made to appear as if they were customs posts. Action Reinhardt proves that the seizure of Jewish property was part of the overall plan for the Jews.
And yet there is a Belzec customs office.
Image

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger need to stay on topic and explain why the denier forms of argument are credible.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The flaws in denier arguments

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Start off by proving that.
Uh-uh. YOU start by presenting evidence that some mystery machine was shipped into T-II, dug the graves and was then shipped out. There's NO evidence that such a machine ever existed and no evidence that 10-12X25-30X50 meter graves were ever dug in the ~10 acres of the alleged extermination area. You claim that Zabecki's notes are "evidence" so why doesn't he mention any mystery machine either coming or going to T-II? Why don't any of the other alleged eyewitnesses claim to have seen such a machine? The mystery machine is YOUR invention so YOU show evidence of its existence.
Show another form of investigatory method, that claims by disproving A, you have therefore proved B.
MGK show that the claims of the hoaxers are bullshit. Your "B" is the fact that it didn't happen.

You claim that the steam chambers weren't actually seen so any reports of steam chambers is hearsay. From the IMT transcript:
I offer in evidence Document 3311-PS, Exhibit USA-293. This is an official Polish Government Commission report on the investigation of German crimes in Poland. The document describes the concentration camp at Treblinka; and from Page 1, Paragraph 3 and 4, I read as follows:

"In March 1942 the Germans began to erect another camp, Treblinka B. in the neighborhood of Treblinka A, intended to become a place of torment for Jews.

"The erection of this camp was closely connected with the German plans aimed at a complete destruction of the Jewish population in Poland, which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942 erection was completed of the first chambers in which these general massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the erection of the real death building, which contains 10 death chambers, was finished. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942."

And on Page 3 of this report, beginning with the second paragraph, the Polish Commission describes graphically the procedure for the extermination within the camp:

"The average number of Jews dealt with at the camp in the summer of 1942 was about two railway transports daily, but there were days of much higher efficiency. From autumn 1942 this number was faring.

"After unloading in the siding, all victims were assembled in one place, where men were separated from women and children. In the first days of the existence of the camp the victims were made to believe that after a short stay in the camp, necessary for bathing and disinfection, they would be sent

567

14 Dec. 45

farther east for work. Explanations of this sort were given by SS men who assisted at the unloading of the transports, and further explanations could be read in notices stuck up on the walls of the barracks. But later, when more transports had to be dealt with, the Germans dropped all pretenses and only tried to accelerate the procedure.

"All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move quickly were driven in by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking, often by Saner himself. Many slipped and fell; the next victims pressed forward and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After being filled up to capacity, the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over. The Jewish menial workers had to remove the bodies from the platform and to bury them in mass graves.

That was the official Polish report and submitted as document PS3311 by the US. You dismiss it as mere hearsay.
Disputing the graves, exhumations and cremations is based on disputing the way witnesses described how they worked. No actual evidence is presented to back up denier claims.
The graves, exhumations and the cremations are shown to be physical impossibilities. They aren't in dispute.
The claims about the AR camps being customs posts are moronically stupid. It is based on the recent Sobibor photos that have been published, which show it was made up to look like a customs stop.
Right, the eeevul Narzis even dressed the personnel up in customs uniforms to hide the fact that they were murdering people in Sobibor. Got any more smoke and bullshit to blow at us, Nessie?

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