a proposal

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Turnagain
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Re: a proposal

Post by Turnagain »

Loog wrote:
Says the USHMM but whatever the amount, Suchomel was paid for his testimony.

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been-there
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Re: a proposal

Post by been-there »

Previously discussed:

here...
been-there wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:11 am
Kleon XYZ Contagion wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:40 am
- Why did Nazis such as Franz Suchomel said the gassings were real, decades after the war?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC343 ... NpF3jGmKOM
No-one knows. Only he knew. But we know that he was paid for that account by Lanzmann. That Lanzmann lied when he claimed it was filmed with a hidden camera in a bag on a table. That Vrba who also appeared in the same film admitted he repeated the lines given to him. And we know that Suchomel claimed things there that are not possible and which can and have been refuted.
Do some genuine research into the alternative explanations which have been silenced by the religious 'true-believers' as "denial". All this and much more has already been analysed and explained.
The film and his testimony was also analysed here: viewtopic.php?p=163188#p163188

...and here in some detail: viewtopic.php?p=85561#p85561 plus in the two posts following it.

Also here in considerable detail: viewtopic.php?p=87337#p87337
P. Winter debunks Suchomel's fake ‘confession’ and C. Lanzmann at: http://peterwinterwriting.blogspot.com/
The Suchomel ‘confession’ in Claude Lanzmann’s Shoah film

It is often claimed that a “confession” by a former SS man, Franz Suchomel, made in the 1985 documentary film Shoah (directed by the French Jewish producer Claude Lanzmann) proves the existence of the Treblinka gas chambers.

There are two aspects to the Suchomel “confession” which bring it into question, namely the technical aspects of Lanzmann’s film, and secondly, the factual details of the “confession”.

(A) Technical aspects:
Firstly, Suchomel is quoted in the film as asking Lanzmann not to use his name or attribute anything he says to him. Lanzman told the New York Times (October 20, 1985, page H-17) that the interview was secretly filmed with a single camera hidden in a canvas bag held by a female assistant.

This, Lanzman explained, was the reason why the Suchomel interview is of poor black and white blurred quality — as opposed to the rest of the movie, which is all in sharp, clear color. In actual fact, the clip showing the “confession” is not even original film, but was filmed off a TV screen, as can be seen by the characteristic horizontal lines and flicker of the filmed interview (caused by a difference in the scanning frequency between the TV and the camera making the film).

It is highly suspicious that Lanzmann would record such a supposedly important interview by filming it off a TV screen when he would have the original film material to hand. The only potential explanation for this would be that tampering is far less easy to detect in a “poor quality” film than raw original material. In this regard, a viewer of the film will also notice that while the image quality of Suchomel is extremely poor, the sound quality is perfect, something which is out of step with the overall production.

It is strange that the “interview” with Suchomel is the only part of the entire nine-and-a-half hour Shoah film which is blurred, indistinct, and so fuzzy that it is nearly impossible to even positively identify the person being interviewed.

Most importantly however, the interview with Suchomel was clearly done with more than one camera — directly contradicting Lanzmann’s claims in the New York Times. A stationary, hidden camera in a bag would only show one angle of a “secret” interview — but instead, as can be seen from the screenshots below, there are at least four different camera angles, each taken at differing focal lengths and perspectives — something that would be impossible with just one “hidden camera.”

In one scene, the camera shows Suchomel actually standing next to a display board allegedly showing the Treblinka camp layout, and holding a pointer stick picking out different locations in lecture style — an arrangement which is obviously highly unlikely for an interview which was supposedly not filmed.

There are other physical anomalies in the “confession”: although the viewer is expected to believe that Suchomel was not aware of the “hidden” camera in the bag, more than once he turns his head and looks directly into the camera.

However, when he adopts his (standing up) lecturer mode, and taps on the set-up board with the Treblinka map, the camera moves in to only a few inches away from the board, and clearly shows his pointer stick. It is far-fetched to believe that anyone holding a “hidden camera in a bag” could hold it so close to the board under such circumstances without being obvious.

The Suchomel “confession” in Claude Lanzmann’s Shoah film: made with at least four different camera angles, and not just the “one hidden camera in a bag” as claimed by the film producer.

Note also the distinctive distortion and horizontal stripe caused by filming off a TV screen. In fact, the curvature of the screen can be seen in the top left hand side of the first image.

Image
Camera angle 1: Set up behind Lanzmann (left) and Suchomel (right).

Image
Camera angle 2: Suchomel standing up, lecture-style, holding a pointer next to a handily-set up board with a supposed map of Treblinka — a highly unlikely arrangement for an interview that was not even supposed to be filmed.

Image
Camera angle 3: Suchomel and the “lecture board” — supposedly not to be filmed.

Image
Camera angle 4: The camera moves to a few inches away from the “lecture board” and the tip of Suchomel’s pointer. It is impossible, as Lanzmann claimed, for one camera, hidden in a bag, to have produced all of these camera angles.

(B) Factual details:
Secondly, it is clear from Suchomel’s own words in the film — presuming that the film is genuine (and as the facts outlined above show, there is good reason to doubt that) — that there are serious errors in his memory and his recounting.

Firstly, it should be borne in mind that Suchomel had been arrested and tried during the 1965 Treblinka Trial at Dusseldorf. At that trial, he confessed to being in charge of or organizing the tailor shop at Treblinka. In line with the common defense tactic used by the accused of not denying the “mass murder” program — which is illegal under German law anyway, and would have therefore only landed him in even further trouble — Suchomel only claimed that he had had nothing to do with it.

In a superb example of how this defense tactic worked, Suchomel was only sentenced to six years in jail — and released just over two years later, in December 1967. This by itself was a sure indication that there was indeed no direct evidence linking him to any “gas chambers” or “mass murder program” at Sobibor.

In the Lanzmann “confession”, Suchomel is quoted as specifically saying that he only saw the “gas chambers” at Sobidor once during the entire time (August 1942 until late October 1943) that he was there. His account, as contained in the Lanzmann confession, is typically vague, and follows precisely the already completely discredited — and as outlined above, physically impossible Holocaust Storytellers’ version of mass gassings in minutes, bodies falling “like potatoes” and then mass cremations in a tiny area of space, with no provision for fuel — or even a single crematorium!

It is clear from this narrative alone, that even if Lanzmann did not tamper with the fuzzy film “interview”, all that Suchomel said was the typical “do-not-deny-it-happened-but-just-deny-that-I-was-involved” type confession which was the only way to avoid being caught up in further legal trouble in post-war Germany.

Finally, it is of great significance that Suchomel died in 1979 — that is, six years before the film was released, and thus never saw his “confession,” and was never able to deny or refute anything which Lanzmann had attributed to him.
Gerard Menhuin wrote:"Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions — while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur — gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Loog
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Re: a proposal

Post by Loog »

Out of curiosity, do you guys know if any SS guard tried at the Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, or Auschwitz trials refuted mass extermination happening at whichever camp they were at ? I could not find any. There are probably over 100 of em

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Re: a proposal

Post by Turnagain »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:33 am
Out of curiosity, do you guys know if any SS guard tried at the Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, or Auschwitz trials refuted mass extermination happening at whichever camp they were at ? I could not find any. There are probably over 100 of em
Why don't you name some specific SS guards and quote or link to their testimony? We can then examine their testimony to see if it's credible.

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Re: a proposal

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:33 am
Out of curiosity, do you guys know if any SS guard tried at the Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, or Auschwitz trials refuted mass extermination happening at whichever camp they were at ? I could not find any. There are probably over 100 of em
An almost identical question was put to this forum almost 3 months ago:
Jeffk wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 am
Can someone give me an example of an AR camp or Auschwitz guard (or on-site administrator), or an Einsatzgruppen personnel, who says "I was there, the murder of Jews didn't happen"? With sources please.
I think the answers sought after may be found there. ;)


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

Amt IV

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Re: a proposal

Post by Loog »

So one person out of over 100,

Karl Munter, that's the one name? it didn't even seem like he denied anything, just that the number is smaller than 6 million because there weren't that many jews to exterminate to begin with.
Last edited by Loog on Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Turnagain
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Re: a proposal

Post by Turnagain »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:14 am
So one person out of over 100,

Karl Munter, that's the one name? he didn't even seem like he denied anything, just that the number is smaller than 6 million because there weren't that many jews to exterminate to begin with.
Not what you said he said. Give a link to his testimony.

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Re: a proposal

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:14 am
So one person out of over 100,

Karl Munter, that's the one name? he didn't even seem like he denied anything, just that the number is smaller than 6 million because there weren't that many jews to exterminate to begin with.
Perhaps they were unsure if the methods of execution were vacuum, steam or gas.
Lobstering was apparently the method and of course steam is a gas.
Image
Image


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

Amt IV

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Re: a proposal

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:14 am
Karl Munter, that's the one name? he didn't even seem like he denied anything, just that the number is smaller than 6 million because there weren't that many jews to exterminate to begin with.
Karl Münter was tried in absentia and sentenced to death, though of course it was never carried out. Karl said those killed in Ascq were responsible for their own deaths.
The Ascq massacre was an execution of 86 men apparently trying to escape on 1 April 1944 in Ascq, France, by the Waffen-SS during the Second World War.

The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend set out by rail for Normandy at the end of March, 1944. On 1 April, their train was approaching the gare d'Ascq, a junction where three railroads intersected, when an explosion blew the line apart, causing two cars to derail. The commander of the convoy, SS Obersturmführer Walter Hauck, ordered troops to search and arrest all male members of the houses on both sides of the track. Altogether 70 men were shot beside the railway line, with another 16 killed in the village itself. Six more men were arrested and charged with the bomb attack after an investigation by the Gestapo; they were eventually ordered to be executed by firing squad.
This was a group of teen age boys in SS Uniforms, led by an officer lacking in maturity; it was certainly not their job to investigation sabotage; this was the responsibility of the Geheime Feld or Staats polizei.

The wrong men were shot of course; it is believed the bombing of the track was carried out by Marcel Lomard and Steve Grady 17, who joined the Voix du Nord resistance in 1942; his father was a gardener for the Imperial War Graves Commission tending plots for the military Cemetery in Nieppe. They spent many hours blowing up the same tracks walking many kilometres from their home. In autumn 1943, the Voix du Nord began working with the Sylvestre-Farmer Resistance network, established around Calais by the British Special Operations Executive. It was run by Michael Trotobas, a British officer known as ‘Capitaine Michel’.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: a proposal

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:43 am
Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:33 am
Out of curiosity, do you guys know if any SS guard tried at the Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, or Auschwitz trials refuted mass extermination happening at whichever camp they were at ? I could not find any. There are probably over 100 of em
Why don't you name some specific SS guards and quote or link to their testimony? We can then examine their testimony to see if it's credible.
What makes you a credible examiner of testimony?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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