Treblinka III

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been-there
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Re: Treblinka III.Sonibor

Post by been-there »

Huntinger wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:01 am
Before World War II, Ciechanow was home to a large Jewish community but during the Nazi occupation, in November 6th of 1942, the majority of the Jewish community suspected of partisan activity were transported to the Red Forest (Czerwony Bor) north-east of town and executed by gunfire. Ciechanow is 105km from Czerwony bor and 99km to Treblinka. Small batch executions were carried out in the local castle. a source : wiki give the same information.

It must be noted that in November 1942 the alleged extermination camp TII was in operation, but these people were taken to Czerwony bor for dispatch to eternity; Treblinka is a few kilometres closer. No gaskammer at Sonibor (czerwony bor) but gunfire.
Juden were a third of the population of Ciechanow according to Z Apel which means that the population of those of semitic descent was 15,000; however in Ciechanow, a census revealed about 80,000 Js in 1931.JVL. According to this source
Most of the Jews were expelled to Russia. Those that stayed were sent to ghettos in East Prussia. The last ghettos were liquidated in the fall of 1942 and the remaining Jews were sent to Treblinka.
Note this is in variance and an update of the people being sent to Czerwony bor. Perhaps some were sent to Czerwony bor for execution and others to Treblinka for transit into the Russian East.

What is clear is that the earlier reports say that Czerwony bor was the place of execution, which coincides with the Polish Underground planned attack on the compound. Czerwony bor was mentioned in Nov 1942. It begs the question how most of der Juden were expelled to the Russias. I suggest this was through the Treblinka complex a zollgrenzschutz outpost.
Of course not all the people were executed as there are reports of the Ciachanow juden at Auschwitz as follows:
JewishGen.org
The Jews who were expelled from Ciechanow were brought by the Germans to the concentration camps. The stronger ones passed through some other ghettos where the Nazis needed more human labor. They too were eventually sent to concentration camps. Totally overworked and exhausted, many died. Those that survived recount their memories in this book. We will suffice here with the description of the life of the Jews in Auschwitz. In Auschwitz, as in other camps, Jews made every effort to be together with those from their town and to give mutual support. It was a tragic caricature of landsmanschaft through awaiting death in the gas chambers.

There are now three stories of the fate of Ciechanow Juden:
  • Wiki..executed Czerwony bor
  • JVL..evicted to Russia, rest executed at Treblinka
  • JewishGen...Sent to work, gassed at Auschwitz
The interesting point though is that Czerwony bor is listed as the first execution site, though the expulsion into Russia speaks volumes.
Excellent research.
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Nessie
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Re: Treblinka III.Sonibor

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:01 am
Before World War II, Ciechanow was home to a large Jewish community but during the Nazi occupation, in November 6th of 1942, the majority of the Jewish community suspected of partisan activity were transported to the Red Forest (Czerwony Bor) north-east of town and executed by gunfire. Ciechanow is 105km from Czerwony bor and 99km to Treblinka. Small batch executions were carried out in the local castle. a source : wiki give the same information.
Meaning you plagiarised Wikipedia;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciechan%C3%B3w

"Before World War II, Ciechanów was home to a large Jewish community of 1,800, but during the Nazi German occupation, in November 1942, the majority of the Jewish community were transported to the Red Forest (Czerwony Bór) northeast of town and murdered in a mass shooting.[12] During the war many Polish Jews and resistance fighters were executed by the Germans in the castle."

Wiki has it that the entire Jewish population were executed. You have suggested that was because they were suspected of partisan activity. You are clearly trying to make fake history that Jew is synonymous with partisan and therefore it is acceptable to kill the Jews.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Treblinka III.Sonibór

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:13 pm
Wiki has it that the entire Jewish population were executed. You have suggested that was because they were suspected of partisan activity. You are clearly trying to make fake history that Jew is synonymous with partisan and therefore it is acceptable to kill the Jews.
Wiki may have well said that; the census of 1931 has about 80 000 juden on their books. JVL (source) had the following to say:
- In Ciechanow, a census revealed about 80,000 Jews in 1931. Most of the Jews were expelled to Russia. Those that stayed were sent to ghettos in East Prussia. The last ghettos were liquidated in the fall of 1942 and the remaining Jews were sent to Treblinka.
The following report says the following: Michal Leszczynski
Before World War II, it (Ciechanow) was home to a large Jewish community but during the Nazi occupation, in the winter of 1942, the majority of the Jewish community were transported to the Red Forest (Czerwony Bor) north-east of town and murdered by gunfire
It is the Wiki article that changed it to Treblinka. However, Czerwony bór and Treblinka III have been identified as one and the same. Michel failed to say that it was the majority of der Juden remaining after expulsion that were sent to Czerwony bor.

The fall of 1942 mentioned in the article was November 6 when those people were sent to Czerwony bór, the Treblinka III camp and shot.

It must be noted that there is no mention of gaskammer and all of the other nonsense attributed to the alleged TII extermination camp. This TII existed as a Konzentrationslager and transit facility. No doubt some inmates were sent to TIII from there.

What is interesting is the following:
  • Most of the 80 000 Juden were expelled or evicted to Russia; most likely Russian Poland about 100 kilometres away.
    Why some remained is unknown or how many; but most likely those incapable of travel.
  • On November 6, the ghetto was liquidated of a few Juden remaining who were then taken to Czerwony bór (Sonibór), mentioned as Treblinka III by the Partizans General and shot.
What is clear is that the mention of Treblinka in one article and Czerwony bór in another about the same event in conjunction with the planned Partizans attack on the Treblinka Czerwony bór complex is clear. This coincides precisely with the US Military Intelligence reports that speaks of a Treblinka III complex. It also shows that the majority of people were transited to Russia with only a minority left to face the wrath of the Reich. Why they were shot is unknown and not appropriate to discuss on this thread.
What should be stunningly clear to readers is that Czerwony bór pronounced as Sonibór is the origins of the Sobibor extermination camp. By coincidence there is also a real Sobibor that was always a forestry complex and possible Zollgrenzschutz transit lager. A whole complex scenario of utter nonsense has prevailed over the mispronunciation of a Polish place name.

There was an execution centre in the Czerwony bór forest in a military compound simply known as Czerwony bór; this was identified as a Treblinka complex aka Treblinka III. Czerwony bór pronounced as Sonibor, is most likely the Sobibor of legend and has nothing to do with the Sobibor lager some 200 odd kilometres away.

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