Treblinka III

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Huntinger
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Treblinka III

Post by Huntinger »

TheGodfather wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:02 pm
He's sick in the head, seriously.
He certainly does not read the posts nor appears interested in the reality of the situation. There is some harping on about the intelligence report mistaking this alleged TIII for Malkinia; in the same intelligence report Malkinia is mentioned as a distinct camp as can be seen in the image below. There is no mistake.
Image
However, as said, this report in conjunction with the planned attack by Home Army, General "Grot" Rowecki on January 27, 1943. Report to be returned by February 17, 1943. The annihilation camp "Treblinka III", according to this official governmental document, was located in an area of the large Czerwony Bor Forest, within a remote and secret old military base also named Czerwony Bor. The Treblinka III death camp for the Jews was therefore located about 40 kilometers north of the Treblinka II.
Here we have an intelligence report of 1941 information coinciding with planned attacks almost two years later. This was a planned attack not the search for the holy grail. :lol:

I have gone further and postulated or hypothesised (this is how I would do it :mrgreen: ) that 16th of May, 1943 marked the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto; the first armed resistance of the ghetto was in January 1943, the same time as the General Rowecki was planning his attack on TIII. He would have known that armed insurrection would be treated with the utmost severity according to German Military Law, where civilian combatants were executed. It is likely that most of the combatants, probably considered to be the whole ghetto would face the death penalty. It must be remember that these people were considered to be Bolshevik juden aka terrorists; Untermensch. The easiest way would be to let the captives think they were being deported to the East via Treblinka II konzentrationslager aka Zollgrenzschutz depot but taken to the Czerwony bor forest for their final departure to the sky. It is possible that Konzentrationslager TII was a storage depot for their final destination 50km north.
It is probable that TII being the closest Konzentrationslager to Czerwony bor, it would act as a "holding pen" for those to be deported and for those to be sent to their final destination at Czerwony bor. It is probable Czerwony bor was not a lager of any description but a pure execution facility.

As Turnagain said, the area is largely uncontaminated and should be a source of investigation with GPR and other archaeological methods once the exact site is known. The question could be debated whether legitimate executions are equivalent to exterminations but that is not the purpose of this thread.


Be appreciated if the resident hoaxer just sticks to the topics. thank you. :)

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Re: Treblinka III

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There is no German document or witness who describes a Treblinka camp in Czerwony Bor.

Your claim that there was a death camp at Czerwony Bor does not mean there was not a death camp at TII.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka III

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Nessie wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:54 am
There is no German document or witness who describes a Treblinka camp in Czerwony Bor.

Your claim that there was a death camp at Czerwony Bor does not mean there was not a death camp at TII.
The Czerwony bor operation was likely to have been a real classified secret operation which is why there is a complete lack of documentations; there would be no Trawniki guards and certainly no witnesses as all that entered were executed.
It appears that a penal institution is now built over the remains of what was once the Czerwony bor military installation and reported execution centre.
Image
Czwerony bor prison
This thread is not about TII, though the reports from both intelligence and Polish Home guard indicate that this was a mere Konzentrationslager and not worthy of attack. Like all Konzentrationslager it was a transit camp by definition. Being the closest lager to the Czerwony bor execution site, it would have probably held prisoners in section 3 (death section) for transportation to Czerwony bor. In this capacity it was a transit camp, though linked to mass executions especially of the Warsaw Bolshevik terrorists. Most were likely sent across the Bug to work. From the perspective of the outside world people were sent to Treblinka II never to return. TII was not equipped for executions, the more secretive operation took place 50km north.

That hypothesis aside based on some evidence, the existence of this TIII is irrelevant to the alleged function of TII.
If those to be executed were detained at Treblinka konzentrationslager or Malkinia until dispatch in smaller number to be shot, hanged or whatever then this TIII (if it was ever called that) is inextricably linked to Treblinka arbeitslager, the Konzentrationslager, Malkinia and the TII built at a later stage. While the evidence points to the current TII being built in July 1942, what is clear from the Intelligence report is that another konzentrationslager TII was in existence in the area as was Malkinia. Whether this TII was in the same location as the July 42 camp is of limited importance.

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Re: Treblinka III

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Here is an interesting post from the CODOH forum. https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13435 It concerns Auschwitz in a publication by the Polish underground called, "The Camp of Death" but it has some very interesting passages about Treblinka I, II, and III. It seems that Treblinka (Tremblinka) III was a camp set aside mainly for the killing of Jews. Here is the link to the publication:
https://archive.org/details/OswiecimCampOfDeath
The relevant pages are 45-46. There's also an interesting take on dates and numbers of victims at Auschwitz by Archie et al. It's definitely worth a peek.

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Re: Treblinka III

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Turnagain wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:15 pm
Here is an interesting post from the CODOH forum. https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13435 It concerns Auschwitz in a publication by the Polish underground called, "The Camp of Death" but it has some very interesting passages about Treblinka I, II, and III. It seems that Treblinka (Tremblinka) III was a camp set aside mainly for the killing of Jews. Here is the link to the publication:
https://archive.org/details/OswiecimCampOfDeath
The relevant pages are 45-46. There's also an interesting take on dates and numbers of victims at Auschwitz by Archie et al. It's definitely worth a peek.
Thank you, more time will be spent on this information soon. An interesting thought came to a colleague when discussing Czerwony BΓ³r which means red forest; the BΓ³r seemingly Russian word for forest with links to Boreal meaning conifer. The word arboretum in English has this meaning. Many places in Russia and a few in Poland have BΓ³r in the names. It occurred that possibly Sobibor is really Sobi BΓ³r, which means to gather forrest; an apt description considering it was a forestry compound (and still is). In Ukrainian Czerwony BΓ³r is spelled Ρ‡Π΅Ρ€Π²ΠΎΠ½ΠΈΠΉ Π±ΠΎΡ€(pronounced сонибор) and Sobi Bor is Π‘ΠΎΠ±ΠΈ Π±ΠΎΡ€ (Π‘ΠΎΠ±ΠΈΠ±ΠΎΡ€).
I think a person hearing the name would think they are one and the same, especially if the listeners are not slavic speaking:the pronunciation is so close there would be confusion.
On this basis it is a possibility that the alleged Sobibor extermination camp was really the execution centre Czerwony bor.

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Re: Treblinka III

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Huntinger wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:56 am
.... An interesting thought came to a colleague when discussing Czerwony BΓ³r which means red forest; the BΓ³r seemingly Russian word for forest with links to Boreal meaning conifer. The word arboretum in English has this meaning. Many places in Russia and a few in Poland have BΓ³r in the names. It occurred that possibly Sobibor is really Sobi BΓ³r, which means to gather forrest; an apt description considering it was a forestry compound (and still is). In Ukrainian Czerwony BΓ³r is spelled Ρ‡Π΅Ρ€Π²ΠΎΠ½ΠΈΠΉ Π±ΠΎΡ€(pronounced сонибор) and Sobi Bor is Π‘ΠΎΠ±ΠΈ Π±ΠΎΡ€ (Π‘ΠΎΠ±ΠΈΠ±ΠΎΡ€).
I think a person hearing the name would think they are one and the same, especially if the listeners are not slavic speaking:the pronunciation is so close there would be confusion.
On this basis it is a possibility that the alleged Sobibor extermination camp was really the execution centre Czerwony bor.
That is a ground breaking level of research.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka III

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Huntinger wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:56 am
On this basis it is a possibility that the alleged Sobibor extermination camp was really the execution centre Czerwony bor.
On this note, Treblinka at its closest to the Red Forest is only 33km, while Chelmno and Sobibor are 150-250km. It is likely the black vans seen at Chelmno were polizei vans, black marias taking victims the long road to the Red Forest.

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Re: Treblinka III

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So, at the moment we have the US intelligence report and the Polish reports of, "List of Different Types of Concentration Camps for Poles" and the "Camp of Death" all of which mention Treblinka III. That "Treblinka III" is just a typo can be ruled out.

I wonder if Treblinka III, the Red Forest or something similar is in the Enigma decrypts. Hunt, that's your area of expertise, have you had a look through those decrypts? Since the Auschwitz reports were sent via Enigma a secret extermination facility would certainly fit being sent by Enigma encryption. Perhaps something to look into.

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Treblinka III is Sonibor.

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:45 pm
That "Treblinka III" is just a typo can be ruled out.
Somehow, several years apart, this is not a typo that can just be ruled out. It seems that the pieces are falling into place with a different story emerging, still unpleasant but more realistic.
There is another Czerwony bor near 53Β° 50β€² 0β€³ N, 20Β° 41β€² 0β€³ E which was in Prussia near Barczewo, at the time it has the name of "roter Wald" or something similar (Rothwalde)

This Prussian Czerwony bor is some 120 km away from the red forest most likely used for mass executions. The one being looked at is at 53Β° 3'34.51"N 22Β° 8'21.88"E Here is a prison in the Bor which is most likely the place of the old military installation and probable place of mass executions. These executions were in accordance with German Military Law, nothing to do with Nationalsozialismus, though soldaten und polizei responsible were acting in the name of the government of the time.
Image
This is almost the centre of what is a vast forest, no chance of prying eyes. I think it pays to keep in mind that this place called Czerwony bor, pronounced simply as Sonibor was confused with another lager, called Sobibor some 220 km away. I doubt if there were gaskammer here, just the guns of Einsatzgruppe IV. It seems that Sobibor a forestry compound, perhaps a transit lager has got the bad rap for Sonibor. (Czerwony bor).
To be frank, it would seem that most of der jΓΌdisch people executed in this forest died as freedom fighters, fighting for something they believed in. All civilian combatants under German Military Law (not just Reich) are guerilla combatants; in a war of annihilation they were dealt with in the most appropriate manner.

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Treblinka III.Sonibor

Post by Huntinger »

Before World War II, Ciechanow was home to a large Jewish community but during the Nazi occupation, in November 6th of 1942, the majority of the Jewish community suspected of partisan activity were transported to the Red Forest (Czerwony Bor) north-east of town and executed by gunfire. Ciechanow is 105km from Czerwony bor and 99km to Treblinka. Small batch executions were carried out in the local castle. a source : wiki give the same information.

It must be noted that in November 1942 the alleged extermination camp TII was in operation, but these people were taken to Czerwony bor for dispatch to eternity; Treblinka is a few kilometres closer. No gaskammer at Sonibor (czerwony bor) but gunfire.
Juden were a third of the population of Ciechanow according to Z Apel which means that the population of those of semitic descent was 15,000; however in Ciechanow, a census revealed about 80,000 Js in 1931.JVL. According to this source
Most of the Jews were expelled to Russia. Those that stayed were sent to ghettos in East Prussia. The last ghettos were liquidated in the fall of 1942 and the remaining Jews were sent to Treblinka.
Note this is in variance and an update of the people being sent to Czerwony bor. Perhaps some were sent to Czerwony bor for execution and others to Treblinka for transit into the Russian East.

What is clear is that the earlier reports say that Czerwony bor was the place of execution, which coincides with the Polish Underground planned attack on the compound. Czerwony bor was mentioned in Nov 1942. It begs the question how most of der Juden were expelled to the Russias. I suggest this was through the Treblinka complex a zollgrenzschutz outpost.
Of course not all the people were executed as there are reports of the Ciachanow juden at Auschwitz as follows:
JewishGen.org
The Jews who were expelled from Ciechanow were brought by the Germans to the concentration camps. The stronger ones passed through some other ghettos where the Nazis needed more human labor. They too were eventually sent to concentration camps. Totally overworked and exhausted, many died. Those that survived recount their memories in this book. We will suffice here with the description of the life of the Jews in Auschwitz. In Auschwitz, as in other camps, Jews made every effort to be together with those from their town and to give mutual support. It was a tragic caricature of landsmanschaft through awaiting death in the gas chambers.

There are now three stories of the fate of Ciechanow Juden:
  • Wiki..executed Czerwony bor
  • JVL..evicted to Russia, rest executed at Treblinka
  • JewishGen...Sent to work, gassed at Auschwitz
The interesting point though is that Czerwony bor is listed as the first execution site, though the expulsion into Russia speaks volumes.

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