What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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Huntinger
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:09 pm
Hundreds of thousands executed in 4 months? These people were all tried and convicted? Including children and Jews from western Europe?
From Mattogno's book, the area he is talking about is Eastern Poland and belarus, minsk land
Yes, many were shot for terrorists activities; the children were collateral damage; no less or more discriminated than bombs dropping on civilians. This was precisely how SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf saw it when he performed his duties with Einsatz D a little further East.

The reprisals were in response to the murders and atrocities these terrorists committed on the Heer; over 1.5 million soldaten fell to their jootrix; hiding amongst the women and children would not save them, would not save anyone as reprisals were necessary. The Reich were entitled to dispose of 15 million of them if the normal 1:10 ratio was observed.

In a war of annihilation, people get annihilated on both sides, there were no civilians only potential combatants, current and in the future.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Loog »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:18 pm
Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:09 pm
Hundreds of thousands executed in 4 months? These people were all tried and convicted? Including children and Jews from western Europe?
From Mattogno's book, the area he is talking about is Eastern Poland and belarus, minsk land
Yes, many were shot for terrorists activities; the children were collateral damage; no less or more discriminated than bombs dropping on civilians. This was precisely how SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf saw it when he performed his duties with Einsatz D a little further East.

The reprisals were in response to the murders and atrocities these terrorists committed on the Heer; over 1.5 million soldaten fell to their jootrix; hiding amongst the women and children would not save them, would not save anyone as reprisals were necessary. The Reich were entitled to dispose of 15 million of them if the normal 1:10 ratio was observed.

In a war of annihilation, people get annihilated on both sides, there were no civilians only potential combatants, current and in the future.
"1.5 million soldaten fell to their jootrix"

Ohlendorff said we have to kill the children because they'll make war on us when they grow up.

"The Reich were entitled to dispose of 15 million of them if the normal 1:10 ratio was observed."

This is exactly the rationale the Germans used for the holocaust.

Since the Jews were fully responsible for the war, which killed at least 6 million full blooded Germans, observing the 1:10 ratio they should have been entitled to killing 60 million Jews, and that doesn't include WW1, which the Jews also caused, which killed 2.5 million Germans.

Also in practice that ratio of 1:10 was more like 1:100, or more

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:56 pm
"1.5 million soldaten fell to their jootrix"
The discussion was on the Einsatz and the Russian Front; the terrorists got what was expected. It appears to have been total mayhem; one cannot have millions of guerilla freedom fighters with explosive and bombs operating behind the lines.
Partisani were attacking other partizani e.g Ukrainian Nationalists fighting Soviets.

Reprisals were to subdue the local populations, which works for a while but often causes rebellion. However, in this case they were rebel fighters anyhow.

An interesting thought to consider, is that while Uncle Joe deported millions of Poles to the Russian Interior, he had not such notions to save the Belarus people with high jüdisch populations; instead he drafted them into the Partizans knowing full well the consequences.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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Read the letter I posted, they also killed Jews from Western Europe. How do you explain this?

"In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and 29 July, 6,500 of whom were Russian Jews – mainly old people, women,and children – the remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most of whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brno, Bremen, and Berlin in November of the previous year at the Fuehrer’s orders."

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:36 pm
Read the letter I posted, they also killed Jews from Western Europe. How do you explain this?

"In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and 29 July, 6,500 of whom were Russian Jews – mainly old people, women,and children – the remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most of whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brno, Bremen, and Berlin in November of the previous year at the Fuehrer’s orders."
Liquidated means removed not murdered. As mentioned there were reprisals for Partisans activity; illegal combatants.
There were also reprisals or pogroms from Baltic Polizei units wandering all over the place for jüdisch collaboration with the NKVD resulting in the deaths and transports of hundreds of thousands. Of course if SS-Oberführer Oskar Dirlewanger and his merry men were operating in the area there would have been war crimes; he and his penal battalion were renown for lack of discretion.

Through all the reports one must discern the truth from the highly exaggerated nonsense. Have fun.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Loog »

Here's the full quote, and the entire passage again , which you will find in Mattagno's book

"In the rear army area – I was not contacted –10,000 Jews were liquidated who were scheduled for extermination by us anyway. In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and 29 July, 6,500 of whom were Russian Jews – mainly old people, women,and children – the remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most of whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brno, Bremen, and Berlin in November of the previous year at the Fuehrer’s orders."

Image

Also see Mattogno's repsonse, these Jews were clearly part of the 'anti-partisan' actions.

Face it bro, Nazis viewed ALL Jews as a threat.

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Huntinger »

.
Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:53 pm
Face it bro, Nazis viewed ALL Jews as a threat.
No doubt that in volatile fluid situations there will be mistakes, tragic ones; decisions are made for strategic purposes. Most juden in the area were considered to be Bolshevik and a threat to humanity; even old ladies and kids can and did throw grenades. War crimes were committed, not the least by the partizani and no doubt some of the actions were for revenge by the Soldaten or Polizei; the partizans did some atrocious tortures on Germans. Tit for tat revenge killings really, not pleasant, but to be expected in the situation of a war of annihilation.

Sadly the Russians did not sign the Hague convention; there were no rules of civilized war.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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You guys are a funny lot, I'll leave you with this quote from Jodl at Nuremberg, where btw he denied having any knowledge of the holocaust before the surrender:
DR. LATERNSER: Furthermore, the Prosecution have submitted Affidavit Number is from Rittmeister Wilhelm Scheidt. It is Document 3711-PS, Exhibit USA-558. Scheidt says in this affidavit, and I quote from Page 2: "It was a generally known fact that the partisan fights were conducted with cruelty on both sides."

I skip a sentence. He goes on to say:

"There is no question but that these facts must have been known to the leading officers in the Armed Forces Operations Staff and in the General Staff of the Army. It was also known that it was Hitler's view that in the fight against partisans only the use of cruel, intimidating punishment could be successful."

Is Rittmeister Scheidt's statement correct, namely, that the leading officers of the Armed Forces Operations Staff and the General Staff of the Army knew of the cruelty employed by both sides in the partisan fighting?

JODL: What we knew about the conduct of partisan warfare has already been submitted to this Tribunal. I refer to the instructions which I signed regarding the combating of partisans in Document F-665, Exhibit RF-411. It begins with a lengthy discourse on how the partisans conducted this war. Of course, we did not invent this. This was extracted from hundreds of reports. That troops in such a fight, seeing the methods employed by the enemy, would on their-part not be exactly mild can readily be imagined. In spite of that the directives which we issued never contained a word to the effect that no prisoners were to be taken in these partisan fights. On the contrary, all reports showed that the number taken prisoner was larger by far than the number killed. That it was the Fuehrer's view that in their fight against the partisans the troops should in no way be restricted is authentically proved by the many arguments which I, as well as the General Staff of the Army, had with the Fuehrer on this subject.

DR. LATERNSER: What if the commanding generals received reports about cruelties committed by their own soldiers?

JODL: Then they would be court-martialed. That again is established in the documents. I remind you of an order, issued by the Fuehrer, which begins with the sentence, "It has been reported to me that individual soldiers of the Armed Forces have been dealt with by court martial because of their behavior when fighting partisans."

DR. LATERNSER: And that was the only thing the commanding general could do in a case like that?

407

5 June 46

JODL: There was no other way open. And even on these orders, he always acted in accordance with his own legal judgment. Who could stop him from doing that?

DR. LATERNSER: The Prosecution have also submitted Affidavit Number 15, by General Rottiger, Document 5713-PS which is numbered Exhibit USA-559. In this affidavit General Rottiger states, in the middle of Page 1:

"Only now, on the strength of documents put before me, do I realize that in issuing the order to employ the severest measures to combat partisans, the highest levels might possibly have had in mind the final aim of using this combating of partisans by the Army to achieve the relentless extermination of Jewry and other undesirable elements."

Did the military leadership at the highest level hold any such

point of view, and was that their final aim?

JODL: No. Of course, one is wise after the event. I too have learned many things today which I did not know before. However, this knowledge does not apply at all here, because there were next to no Jews among the partisans. In the main, these partisans were fanatical Russian fighters-mostly White Russians-and were as hard as steel. And, to a question put by my counsel, even the witness Bach-Zelewski had to admit that there were just about no Jews among these partisans.

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:40 pm
JODL: No. Of course, one is wise after the event. I too have learned many things today which I did not know before. However, this knowledge does not apply at all here, because there were next to no Jews among the partisans. In the main, these partisans were fanatical Russian fighters-mostly White Russians-and were as hard as steel. And, to a question put by my counsel, even the witness Bach-Zelewski had to admit that there were just about no Jews among these partisans.
For your readers you should perhaps mention who Jodl was. Generaloberst Alfred Jodl had the equivalent rank of a 4 star general, just below the rank of Field Marshall.
Jodl signed the Commissar Order of 6 June 1941 (in which Soviet political commissars were to be shot) and the Commando Order of 28 October 1942 (in which Allied commandos, including properly uniformed soldiers as well as combatants wearing civilian clothes, such as Maquis and partisans, were to be executed immediately without trial if captured behind German lines).

The Generaloberst spent most of the war in Wolfsschanze. It would appear that the Partizani his soldiers were fighting didn't want juden in their ranks, perhaps to save them or perhaps der Juden were the ones pulling the strings, maybe hauling large ropes.


Released Soviet archive data suggest that Juden accounted for 5.2% of the partizani in Ukraine. Most of der jüdisch partizani did not fight in combat with soldaten but hid in forests, swamps as terrorist fighters; this is why polizei units were needed to flush them out. Polizei not soldaten.

Just under 40% of the NKVD, Soviet Secret Polizei were juden. Once an area was reoccupied, control over all Partizani was assumed by the Chief of Security Troops, who commanded all NKVD forces within each army group zone. Soviet Handbook
Due to the strategic importance of the Partizani, they were controlled by the NKVD who had a huge jüdisch presence and cracked the whip. “About 40 percent of high-ranking NKVD officers had jüdisch nationality recorded in their identity documents,”; Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin.

When Stalin replaced Yagoda in September 1936, he appointed another Jude, the more zealous Nikolai Yezhov. In January 1937 the 111 top NKVD officials included 42 Jden (38%), 35 Russians, 8 Latvians, and 26 others. Of the twenty NKVD directorates, twelve (including state security, police, labour camps, and resettlement) were headed by officers identified as ethnic judentum. Of the ten departments of the Main Directorate for State Security, the most sensitive of all NKVD agencies, seven (protection of government officials, counter-intelligence, secret political, special (surveillance in the army), foreign intelligence, records, and prisons) were headed by Juden.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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Huntinger wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:07 am
Loog wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:40 pm
JODL: No. Of course, one is wise after the event. I too have learned many things today which I did not know before. However, this knowledge does not apply at all here, because there were next to no Jews among the partisans. In the main, these partisans were fanatical Russian fighters-mostly White Russians-and were as hard as steel. And, to a question put by my counsel, even the witness Bach-Zelewski had to admit that there were just about no Jews among these partisans.
For your readers you should perhaps mention who Jodl was. Generaloberst Alfred Jodl had the equivalent rank of a 4 star general, just below the rank of Field Marshall.
Jodl signed the Commissar Order of 6 June 1941 (in which Soviet political commissars were to be shot) and the Commando Order of 28 October 1942 (in which Allied commandos, including properly uniformed soldiers as well as combatants wearing civilian clothes, such as Maquis and partisans, were to be executed immediately without trial if captured behind German lines).

The Generaloberst spent most of the war in Wolfsschanze.
Plagiarised from Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Jodl
It would appear that the Partizani his soldiers were fighting didn't want juden in their ranks, perhaps to save them or perhaps der Juden were the ones pulling the strings, maybe hauling large ropes.


Released Soviet archive data suggest that Juden accounted for 5.2% of the partizani in Ukraine.
Source?

If that is correct, then denier claim that it was justified shooting all Jews as partisans is a lie.
Most of der jüdisch partizani did not fight in combat with soldaten but hid in forests, swamps as terrorist fighters; this is why polizei units were needed to flush them out. Polizei not soldaten.

Just under 40% of the NKVD, Soviet Secret Polizei were juden. Once an area was reoccupied, control over all Partizani was assumed by the Chief of Security Troops, who commanded all NKVD forces within each army group zone. Soviet Handbook
Due to the strategic importance of the Partizani, they were controlled by the NKVD who had a huge jüdisch presence and cracked the whip. “About 40 percent of high-ranking NKVD officers had jüdisch nationality recorded in their identity documents,”; Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin.

When Stalin replaced Yagoda in September 1936, he appointed another Jude, the more zealous Nikolai Yezhov. In January 1937 the 111 top NKVD officials included 42 Jden (38%), 35 Russians, 8 Latvians, and 26 others. Of the twenty NKVD directorates, twelve (including state security, police, labour camps, and resettlement) were headed by officers identified as ethnic judentum. Of the ten departments of the Main Directorate for State Security, the most sensitive of all NKVD agencies, seven (protection of government officials, counter-intelligence, secret political, special (surveillance in the army), foreign intelligence, records, and prisons) were headed by Juden.
It is odd that deniers largely accept the shooting of Jews as the enemy in the eastern occupied countries such as Ukraine, but deny that the Jews from the western occupied countries, such as the Netherlands were also killed, since they were the enemy.

Huntinger just cobbles together waffle, whilst avoiding evidenced that western Jews such as the Dutch were resettled somewhere in the east, such as the Ukraine, which had been cleared of Jews.

One denier, Thomas Kues tried to find evidence of that happening, he failed. His failure was due to the lack of evidence. The lack of evidence was due to it not happening. Western Jews were not resettled in the east.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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