What is the Revisionist Narrative??

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Turnagain
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Turnagain »

Hunt, the M&H mA was a 70 hp machine that weighted 27 tons. The mB had 107 hp and weighed 40 tons and was 13 feet high at its highest point. Disregarding the mathematics, the mB can be seen in the ARC photos stockpiling ex at the T-I quarry about 4-5 feet higher than the dragline's house.

It's not that the draglines couldn't have dug the graves. That was well within their capabilities. The impossibility was for them to both dig and stockpile the ex from the pit. Without trucks or other conveyances to haul the ex away, they were limited to the height that they could build a stockpile. Each meter of excavation would produce 250 cubic meters of ex. That equals a 15.8 meter high stockpile assuming an angle of repose for wet sand. Of course there's the usual gain from the excavation, the 25 meters of stockpile zone at the end of the grave and so on but that still leaves a stockpile far higher than the ~5 meters that the mB could achieve.

Wiernik et al. were just fantasizing about the graves and didn't consider the physical limitations of the available equipment.

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Huntinger
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:20 am
Wiernik et al. were just fantasizing about the graves and didn't consider the physical limitations of the available equipment.
Forgive my ignorance on excavators and draglines, it appears they are great for many things, especially quarry mining; there is a quarry near where I live and they can be seen slowly demolishing a hill albeit with the aid of ammatol explosive; I do not recall any of the (((eye witnesses))) mentioning mounds of sandy loam or dirt being carted away. So "where did it go" :?: :D ;).

That is an enormous amount of dirt for a small hole. There is no rational reason to believe that the Nazis could transport, carry, load and deposit 850,000 metric tonnes without leaving any evidence of that happening.
:mrgreen: ;) :D

Perhaps in the aerial photos we should be looking for mounds or small hills in the region. Where did it go :)


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Turnagain
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Turnagain »

The entire tale of Treblinka from the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers, the mass graves and exhumations to the magic Jew barbeque are fantasies straight out of bizarro world. Nessie has a "what if" and "coulda woulda" for every wacko claim. One "what if" would be a stretch but having to produce one for every claim? Nuh-uh, ain't buying it.

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:30 am
That's what you said, Nessie. If it happened, it was possible so yep, the Ukrainians and the Germans lied about what they saw at T-II.
First you need to prove they lied. Why would the Nazis put on trial in Germany in the 1960s, cooperate with Poles, Soviets and Jewish prisoners and lie about what happened at TII? It was the prefect time for them to reveal the truth. They were safe in Germany and Germany had no reason to cooperate with the SU or Poland.

Your idea of a massive lie perpetrated by people who were enemies is utter nonsense.
As far as the make and model of the draglines, you posted a picture of both of them. A M&H mA and a mB. I seen 'em. Both of them sitting right there in the gravel quarry in the picture you posted.
The photos are from Hanz Frank and are when TII was being dismantled in the autumn of 1943. That does not mean those were the excavators used to dig the graves in 1942, or exhume the bodies in 1943. They are clearly not in a quarry.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:20 am
Hunt, the M&H mA was a 70 hp machine that weighted 27 tons. The mB had 107 hp and weighed 40 tons and was 13 feet high at its highest point. Disregarding the mathematics, the mB can be seen in the ARC photos stockpiling ex at the T-I quarry about 4-5 feet higher than the dragline's house.

It's not that the draglines couldn't have dug the graves. That was well within their capabilities. The impossibility was for them to both dig and stockpile the ex from the pit. Without trucks or other conveyances to haul the ex away, they were limited to the height that they could build a stockpile. Each meter of excavation would produce 250 cubic meters of ex. That equals a 15.8 meter high stockpile assuming an angle of repose for wet sand. Of course there's the usual gain from the excavation, the 25 meters of stockpile zone at the end of the grave and so on but that still leaves a stockpile far higher than the ~5 meters that the mB could achieve.

Wiernik et al. were just fantasizing about the graves and didn't consider the physical limitations of the available equipment.
You are assuming those were the only excavators in use in WWII, that no stockpile was removed from the camp and that the Nazis dug all the graves at the same time before they even started to fill the first one.

When you make so many assumptions, there is no reason to believe you are correct.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Turnagain »

In the "Skeptics Forum" Nessie wrote:
Are you claiming, despite the photographic evidence, that this machine could not dig up mass graves in very sandy soil?
Nessie then posted a photo from the ARC collection showing the M&H mA in the foreground and the mB in the background. Now Nessie claims:
That does not mean those were the excavators used to dig the graves in 1942, or exhume the bodies in 1943.
Nessie is apparently claiming that the M&H draglines coulda' dug the graves but the Germans decided not to use them for that purpose but instead brought in a mystery machine to dig the graves. Care to explain why the Germans would do that when, according to you, they had perfectly serviceable machines on hand?

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Nessie
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:55 pm
In the "Skeptics Forum" Nessie wrote:
Are you claiming, despite the photographic evidence, that this machine could not dig up mass graves in very sandy soil?
Nessie then posted a photo from the ARC collection showing the M&H mA in the foreground and the mB in the background. Now Nessie claims:
That does not mean those were the excavators used to dig the graves in 1942, or exhume the bodies in 1943.
Nessie is apparently claiming that the M&H draglines coulda' dug the graves but the Germans decided not to use them for that purpose but instead brought in a mystery machine to dig the graves. Care to explain why the Germans would do that when, according to you, they had perfectly serviceable machines on hand?
I did not say "they had perfectly serviceable machines on hand", you just made that up. I am uncertain whether or not the draglines could have been used or not. We do not know what machines they had "on hand" in 1942.

Blake forced you to agree that the dragline could dig the graves to the dimensions witnesses give (plus or minus a few meters) and the issue is where did the stockpile go? No witness at all mentions what happened with the stockpile.

Your obsession with the excavators is not shared by anyone else. Just because we do not know for sure what was available and what was used, does not therefore mean no graves were dug. Everyone understands that except you.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:56 am
The entire tale of Treblinka from the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers, the mass graves and exhumations to the magic Jew barbeque are fantasies straight out of bizarro world. Nessie has a "what if" and "coulda woulda" for every wacko claim. One "what if" would be a stretch but having to produce one for every claim? Nuh-uh, ain't buying it.
Germans working out how to gas, dig large pits and cremate on pyres is not a "fantasy" or a "stretch".

Your claim that someone managed to get everyone who worked at TII to lie about what happened, starting in 1942 with an escaped Polish Jew and continuing throughout the 1960s with Germans who were safe in Germany to the modern day, having managed to secretly move c840,000 people by autumn 1943, and accommodate them somewhere without leaving any evidence, is the true fantasy and a total stretch of belief.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie frantically weasel dodges. First he claims that the M&H draglines were capable of digging the graves and then claims that the draglines weren't used to dig the graves. The question remains, "Why did the Germans bring in a mystery machine when the M&H equipment was capable of digging the graves"?

Nessie claims that Blake forced me to agree that the M&H draglines could have dug the graves (he didn't) but if that were the case, why didn't the Germans use them to dig the graves? Why did they bring in the mystery machine?

Nessie has his tit in the wringer and is squirming and squealing quite nicely. LOL!

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Re: What is the Revisionist Narrative??

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:53 pm
Nessie frantically weasel dodges. First he claims that the M&H draglines were capable of digging the graves and then claims that the draglines weren't used to dig the graves.
Not true.
The question remains, "Why did the Germans bring in a mystery machine when the M&H equipment was capable of digging the graves"?

Nessie claims that Blake forced me to agree that the M&H draglines could have dug the graves (he didn't)...
He did. The issue is what happened to the stockpile? The answer is, we do not know.
... but if that were the case, why didn't the Germans use them to dig the graves? Why did they bring in the mystery machine?

Nessie has his tit in the wringer and is squirming and squealing quite nicely. LOL!
What excavator was used? You don't know. No one does. You then stupidly think that we can then make definitive conclusions based on not knowing what excavator was used and speculation that it might have been a M&H dragline.

Your argument is that witnesses claimed a M&H dragline was used to dig mass graves. The M&H dragline could not have dug graves the size claimed by the witnesses. Therefore the witnesses lied.

Your argument fails because the two premises are wrong. No witness claimed that an M&H dragline was used. A M&H dragline could have dug graves to a size within a few meters of the size claimed by witnesses.

When that was pointed out to you, you got upset and started going on about mystery machines and complaining about the size of the stockpile. Your mystery machine argument is stupid because it assumes there was only the M&H dragline. Your stockpile argument fails because we do not know what happened with the stockpile.

You thought you were onto something and that made you feel clever. You were wrong and that hurts your ego.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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