Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

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Nessie
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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:13 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:29 am
Werd tries to reverse the burden of proof.
Nessie won't accept his burden.
This thread is you claiming Rudolf and then Mattogno have proved no gassings. You are trying to reverse the burden of proof, which is a sign that you know you have no evidence to back up your claims.
He has no documents to show consistent and continual corpse storage in the Leichenkeller between 1941 and 1942.
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
He has no witness to its use only for storing corpses and for all he decries witness evidence, if he had a witness he would use him.
While I managed to cite THREE witnesse BY NAME and show how and why they were lying, Nessie can't even cite ONE witness BY NAME and explain why they should be believed.
The original blueprints tell us about the original construction
I'm not sure how the original blueprints prove gas chambers so what is Nessie even talking about. :lol:
Whilst witnesses corroborating, especially since those witnesses were Nazi and Jew, is of itself very good evidence, I still check to see if their claims can be corroborated by other evidence.
Nessie won't name these Nazis or explain why they should be believed. Probably because I already proved Hoss, an alleged witness to gassing in Krema I LIED HIS ASS OFF about Bunker 1 being used to gas people. You see, Nessie weeks ago admitted the documentary evidence that Mattogno and Rudolf found in the ZBL archive, proving Bunker 1 was used for DELOUSING OPERATION.
The issue with the Leichenkeller is that there are no documents about its actual usage in 1941 to 1942. There is nothing that specifically shows bodies were stored there,
Nessie is flat out lying; partially by omission. He already admitted bodies were being stored there in 1941 and when we check the first pages of chapter 2 by Mattogno, we see that in 1940, documents showing correspondence clearly talking about ventilation system. Secondly NESSIE ALREADY ADMITTED CORPSES WERE BEING STORED THERE BEFORE OCTOBER 1941. SO AS TO WHY HE'S SUDDENLY CHANGING HIS MIND NOW AND ACTING LIKE WE HAVE NO PROOF OR DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE THAT ONE SINGLE CORPSE WERE EVER STORED THERE, IS A CLEAR SIGN THAT HE IS A TROLL AND HE IS LOSING!
My point is that there is nothing to evidence corpses were stored continually during that period, which would evidence no gassings. Yes corpses were likely stored in the Leichenkeller prior to its use as a gas chamber, but that is a moot point.
At Kremas II and III, a denier argument that gassings did not happen is because they claim no holes in the roof. Then at Krema I, they flip and claim the holes were made later.
Krema I was converted into an air raid shelter. WERE KREMAS II AND III? NO. HENCE THEY HAVE NO NEED FOR THOSE AIR SHAFTS THAT AN AIR RAID SHELTER WOULD. SO STOP COMPARING APPLES AND ORANGES. THEN YOU WON'T MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF WHEN YOU TRY TO "CATCH" REVISIONISTS IN A "CONTRADICTION." God, you are so THICK-HEADED!
You previously claimed Kremas II to V were used for air raid shelters. Show me the evidence that the holes in the roof of Krema I were for ventilation when it was an air raid shelter and they were put there in 1944 during the converstion.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.


Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH, kindly contact Scott Smith. All contributions are welcome!


Werd
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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:50 pm
This thread is you claiming Rudolf and then Mattogno have proved no gassings.
Yep.
You are trying to reverse the burden of proof,
Nessie lies and ignores what was already explained to him in simple terms that he pretends not to understand:
Werd wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am
since you have no primary evidence of continual corpse storage, I can dismiss that claim.
since you have no primary evidence of a gassing session, I can dismiss that claim.

Oops. I guess we're stuck in the middle. What do we do now? Well I guess we should let the evidence speak in order to make the best informed decision. So I would like to see your evidence of gassing. Remember, you have as much of a burden for your side as I have for mine. Where is your primary evidence?
Next.
He has no documents to show consistent and continual corpse storage in the Leichenkeller between 1941 and 1942.
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
He has no witness to its use only for storing corpses and for all he decries witness evidence, if he had a witness he would use him.
While I managed to cite THREE witnesse BY NAME and show how and why they were lying, Nessie can't even cite ONE witness BY NAME and explain why they should be believed.
The original blueprints tell us about the original construction
I'm not sure how the original blueprints prove gas chambers so what is Nessie even talking about. :lol:
Whilst witnesses corroborating, especially since those witnesses were Nazi and Jew, is of itself very good evidence, I still check to see if their claims can be corroborated by other evidence.
Nessie won't name these Nazis or explain why they should be believed. Probably because I already proved Hoss, an alleged witness to gassing in Krema I LIED HIS ASS OFF about Bunker 1 being used to gas people. You see, Nessie weeks ago admitted the documentary evidence that Mattogno and Rudolf found in the ZBL archive, proving Bunker 1 was used for DELOUSING OPERATION.
The issue with the Leichenkeller is that there are no documents about its actual usage in 1941 to 1942. There is nothing that specifically shows bodies were stored there,
Nessie is flat out lying; partially by omission. He already admitted bodies were being stored there in 1941 and when we check the first pages of chapter 2 by Mattogno, we see that in 1940, documents showing correspondence clearly talking about ventilation system. Secondly NESSIE ALREADY ADMITTED CORPSES WERE BEING STORED THERE BEFORE OCTOBER 1941. SO AS TO WHY HE'S SUDDENLY CHANGING HIS MIND NOW AND ACTING LIKE WE HAVE NO PROOF OR DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE THAT ONE SINGLE CORPSE WERE EVER STORED THERE, IS A CLEAR SIGN THAT HE IS A TROLL AND HE IS LOSING!
My point is that there is nothing to evidence corpses were stored continually during that period, which would evidence no gassings. Yes corpses were likely stored in the Leichenkeller prior to its use as a gas chamber, but that is a moot point.
Look at all that stuff Nessie skipped over on purpose in order to jump to my last point ONLY! He refuses to acknowledge:
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
Nessie won't name these Nazis or explain why they should be believed. Probably because I already proved Hoss, an alleged witness to gassing in Krema I LIED HIS ASS OFF about Bunker 1 being used to gas people. You see, Nessie weeks ago admitted the documentary evidence that Mattogno and Rudolf found in the ZBL archive, proving Bunker 1 was used for DELOUSING OPERATION.
You previously claimed Kremas II to V were used for air raid shelters.
Was that specifically me? Or was I merely citing a Crowell article AND THEN AFTER THAT showing Mattogno articles in order to DEMONSTRATE COMPETING REVISIONIST THEORIES, OF WHICH ONLY ONE CAN COME OUT ON TOP? KIND OF LIKE HOW I SHOWED COMPETING THEORIES FROM BUTZ AND MATTOGNO ABOUT "VERGSUNGSKELLAR" AND THEN SHOWED HOW IN THE END MATTOGNO WON? You still think you have me in a contradiction and you don't. It's hilarious!

My point of showing COMPETING revisionist theories and then SETTLING ON THE BEST ONE BASED ON AVAILABLE EVIDENCE, is to show that NO MATTER WHERE YOU TURN, there are reasons for gas tight and air tight doors not relating to gassing humans. Hell, WE JUST SAW ANOTHER EXAMPLE of gas tight doors having NOTHING TO DO with gassing people.
Werd wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:38 pm

Image
WAIT A SECOND? DID JOSTEN JUST ORDER GAS TIGHT DOORS IN 1944 LONG AFTER THE ALLEGED GASSING OF HUMANS HAD ENDED? IS THIS YET ANOTHER INSTANCE OF GAS TIGHT DOORS NOT PROVING HOMICIDAL INTENT? :lol:
Image
So the Poles took down one too many extra walls and then smashed four holes in the roof. :lol:
In other words, your pathetic "criminal traces" aren't real evidence!

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Nessie
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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:11 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:50 pm
This thread is you claiming Rudolf and then Mattogno have proved no gassings.
Yep.
You are trying to reverse the burden of proof,
Nessie lies and ignores what was already explained to him in simple terms that he pretends not to understand:
Werd wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am
since you have no primary evidence of continual corpse storage, I can dismiss that claim.
since you have no primary evidence of a gassing session, I can dismiss that claim.

Oops. I guess we're stuck in the middle. What do we do now? Well I guess we should let the evidence speak in order to make the best informed decision. So I would like to see your evidence of gassing. Remember, you have as much of a burden for your side as I have for mine. Where is your primary evidence?
You claim that I lied that you are trying to reverse the burden of proof, and then you ask to see the evidence for gassings.

The liar is you.
Next.
He has no documents to show consistent and continual corpse storage in the Leichenkeller between 1941 and 1942.
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
He has no witness to its use only for storing corpses and for all he decries witness evidence, if he had a witness he would use him.
While I managed to cite THREE witnesse BY NAME and show how and why they were lying, Nessie can't even cite ONE witness BY NAME and explain why they should be believed.
The original blueprints tell us about the original construction
I'm not sure how the original blueprints prove gas chambers so what is Nessie even talking about. :lol:
Whilst witnesses corroborating, especially since those witnesses were Nazi and Jew, is of itself very good evidence, I still check to see if their claims can be corroborated by other evidence.
Nessie won't name these Nazis or explain why they should be believed. Probably because I already proved Hoss, an alleged witness to gassing in Krema I LIED HIS ASS OFF about Bunker 1 being used to gas people. You see, Nessie weeks ago admitted the documentary evidence that Mattogno and Rudolf found in the ZBL archive, proving Bunker 1 was used for DELOUSING OPERATION.
The issue with the Leichenkeller is that there are no documents about its actual usage in 1941 to 1942. There is nothing that specifically shows bodies were stored there,
Nessie is flat out lying; partially by omission. He already admitted bodies were being stored there in 1941 and when we check the first pages of chapter 2 by Mattogno, we see that in 1940, documents showing correspondence clearly talking about ventilation system. Secondly NESSIE ALREADY ADMITTED CORPSES WERE BEING STORED THERE BEFORE OCTOBER 1941. SO AS TO WHY HE'S SUDDENLY CHANGING HIS MIND NOW AND ACTING LIKE WE HAVE NO PROOF OR DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE THAT ONE SINGLE CORPSE WERE EVER STORED THERE, IS A CLEAR SIGN THAT HE IS A TROLL AND HE IS LOSING!
My point is that there is nothing to evidence corpses were stored continually during that period, which would evidence no gassings. Yes corpses were likely stored in the Leichenkeller prior to its use as a gas chamber, but that is a moot point.
Look at all that stuff Nessie skipped over on purpose in order to jump to my last point ONLY! He refuses to acknowledge:
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
I said you did not understand evidencing and there you go, proving me correct again. In this post I acknowledge what is not evidenced.

viewtopic.php?p=173334#p173334

There are no documents that state people were gassed. The traces of residue found were minimal. I explain what is corroborated and how the corroboration works, but you are unable to follow.
Nessie won't name these Nazis or explain why they should be believed. Probably because I already proved Hoss, an alleged witness to gassing in Krema I LIED HIS ASS OFF about Bunker 1 being used to gas people. You see, Nessie weeks ago admitted the documentary evidence that Mattogno and Rudolf found in the ZBL archive, proving Bunker 1 was used for DELOUSING OPERATION.
You previously claimed Kremas II to V were used for air raid shelters.
Was that specifically me? Or was I merely citing a Crowell article AND THEN AFTER THAT showing Mattogno articles in order to DEMONSTRATE COMPETING REVISIONIST THEORIES, OF WHICH ONLY ONE CAN COME OUT ON TOP? KIND OF LIKE HOW I SHOWED COMPETING THEORIES FROM BUTZ AND MATTOGNO ABOUT "VERGSUNGSKELLAR" AND THEN SHOWED HOW IN THE END MATTOGNO WON? You still think you have me in a contradiction and you don't. It's hilarious!

My point of showing COMPETING revisionist theories and then SETTLING ON THE BEST ONE BASED ON AVAILABLE EVIDENCE, is to show that NO MATTER WHERE YOU TURN, there are reasons for gas tight and air tight doors not relating to gassing humans. Hell, WE JUST SAW ANOTHER EXAMPLE of gas tight doors having NOTHING TO DO with gassing people.
You have jumped about competing hypothesis about what happened inside the various Leichenkellers. You have no idea which one is correct, since you refuse to look at all of the evidence and importantly, what is not evidenced and you do not understand evidencing.

You say Mattogno "in the end won" and beat Butz and that gas doors are not for air raid shelters at Kremas II to V. But here you argue that gas doors are for an air raid shelter at Krema I.
Werd wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:38 pm

Image
WAIT A SECOND? DID JOSTEN JUST ORDER GAS TIGHT DOORS IN 1944 LONG AFTER THE ALLEGED GASSING OF HUMANS HAD ENDED? IS THIS YET ANOTHER INSTANCE OF GAS TIGHT DOORS NOT PROVING HOMICIDAL INTENT? :lol:
Image
So the Poles took down one too many extra walls and then smashed four holes in the roof. :lol:
In other words, your pathetic "criminal traces" aren't real evidence!
Correct, a gas tight door on its own does not prove homicidal gassings. Nor does it prove delousing or an air raid shelter. To find out why the Nazis fitted gas tight doors, we need to look at all of the evidence and you HATE that, since there is corroborating evidence of homicidal gassings using gas, so gas doors were bought for that purpose. At other times, since the Nazis changed the use of buildings over time, such doors were also bought for use for other purposes.

Only denial operates by disputing the evidence as to what did happen and then claim therefore something else happened, without being able to show what that was. No other academic discipline works like that. Denial is unique and it cannot explain why.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Contact:

Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:02 pm
Werd wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am
since you have no primary evidence of continual corpse storage, I can dismiss that claim.
since you have no primary evidence of a gassing session, I can dismiss that claim.

Oops. I guess we're stuck in the middle. What do we do now? Well I guess we should let the evidence speak in order to make the best informed decision. So I would like to see your evidence of gassing. Remember, you have as much of a burden for your side as I have for mine. Where is your primary evidence?
You claim that I lied that you are trying to reverse the burden of proof, and then you ask to see the evidence for gassings.

The liar is you.
I accepted my burden and did the best I could with Mattogno extracts, links and quotes from an old topic, and a critique of THREE witnesses.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? NOTHING! I ACCEPTED MY BURDEN. YOU CAN'T DENY YOURS!
Look at all that stuff Nessie skipped over on purpose in order to jump to my last point ONLY! He refuses to acknowledge:
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
In this post I acknowledge what is not evidenced.
viewtopic.php?p=173334#p173334
There are no documents that state people were gassed. The traces of residue found were minimal.
Thus, you have no real evidence outside of witness testimony and a stupid ad hoc that the Nazis would have built uneven roof holes in Krema I, but apparently not in the others Kremas. :lol:
I explain what is corroborated
Witnesses agreeing is not proof of anything. Sorry. You need physical evidence which you admit is lacking. Besides, what is your proof of ANY trace of residue in the morgue?
My point of showing COMPETING revisionist theories and then SETTLING ON THE BEST ONE BASED ON AVAILABLE EVIDENCE, is to show that NO MATTER WHERE YOU TURN, there are reasons for gas tight and air tight doors not relating to gassing humans. Hell, WE JUST SAW ANOTHER EXAMPLE of gas tight doors having NOTHING TO DO with gassing people.
You have jumped about competing hypothesis about what happened inside the various Leichenkellers. You have no idea which one is correct
The big text shows what a liar you are.
You say Mattogno "in the end won" and beat Butz and that gas doors are not for air raid shelters at Kremas II to V.
You're getting confused in your trolling. Mattogno and Butz fought about Vergasungskellar. Mattogno and Crowell fought about air raid shelters.
Correct, a gas tight door on its own does not prove homicidal gassings.
So I guess that means every time you point to a gas tight door and declare victory, it's not really a victory.
To find out why the Nazis fitted gas tight doors, we need to look at all of the evidence and you HATE that,
I'm the one who TAKES THE TIME to ACCEPT a burden of proof for MY SIDE and bothers to quote Mattogno books, links back to Bob and I was a number in old debates, and takes the time to quote and attack three fake eyewitnesses. What has Nessie done for his side? NOTHING! So when he says I hate debating and posting things, he's clearly lying. :lol: I'm not looking for an excuse to not accept my burden of proof and do any homework. HE IS! I ASKED HIM TO LIST HIS WITNESSES AND EXAMINE THEIR TESTIMONY ONE AFTER THE OTHER! I TOLD HIM HE WAS FREE TO QUOTE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HE COULD FIND, EVEN THE ONES IN MATTOGNO'S BOOK. HE HAS REFUSED TO DO HIS HOMEWORK! WHO REALLY HATES GATHERING EVIDENCE AND PUTTING IT ON THE TABLE??? :D

The fact that all Nessie needs is mere "eyewitness" testimony to confirm a document about gas tight doors, shows how he has things backwards. That's not how it works. Only documents can confirm eyewitnesses and not the other way around! WE SAW THAT HERE WHEN WE FIGURED OUT THIS PERSON LIED ABOUT HOW A BUNCH OF CZECH JEWS DIED. Wetzler lied about what happened to a bunch of Czech Jews. He claimed they were murdered but documents show the exact opposite.
viewtopic.php?p=172528#p172528
Documents confirm or refute eyewitnesses. They tower above people's admitted fallible or lying memory in the evidence hierarchy. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

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Nessie
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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:24 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:02 pm
Werd wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am
since you have no primary evidence of continual corpse storage, I can dismiss that claim.
since you have no primary evidence of a gassing session, I can dismiss that claim.

Oops. I guess we're stuck in the middle. What do we do now? Well I guess we should let the evidence speak in order to make the best informed decision. So I would like to see your evidence of gassing. Remember, you have as much of a burden for your side as I have for mine. Where is your primary evidence?
You claim that I lied that you are trying to reverse the burden of proof, and then you ask to see the evidence for gassings.

The liar is you.
I accepted my burden and did the best I could with Mattogno extracts, links and quotes from an old topic, and a critique of THREE witnesses.
"The best you could" was to copy and paste Mattogno's arguments from incredulity and ignorance, which are fallacies and not evidence. There is no academic discipline that does what deniers such as Mattogno do, where they take the evidence FOR what happened, think up reasons to dispute that evidence and then claim, therefore it did not happen and something else did, for which there is no evidence.

It is not good enough to claim the witnesses lied, therefore no gassings. You HAVE to provide evidence as to what did happen.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? NOTHING! I ACCEPTED MY BURDEN. YOU CAN'T DENY YOURS!
I have never denied that when I make a claim, the burden of proof is on me. Stop lying by suggesting otherwise.
Look at all that stuff Nessie skipped over on purpose in order to jump to my last point ONLY! He refuses to acknowledge:
He has no documents to show gassing started in October 1941 and ended in March 1942.
He has no scientific report showing any significant trace of Zyklon B residue consistent with large # of gassing.
In this post I acknowledge what is not evidenced.
viewtopic.php?p=173334#p173334
There are no documents that state people were gassed. The traces of residue found were minimal.
Thus, you have no real evidence outside of witness testimony and a stupid ad hoc that the Nazis would have built uneven roof holes in Krema I, but apparently not in the others Kremas. :lol:
I explain what is corroborated
Witnesses agreeing is not proof of anything. Sorry. You need physical evidence which you admit is lacking. Besides, what is your proof of ANY trace of residue in the morgue?
I do not admit there is a lack of physical evidence. STOP LYING. I explained to you how the witness and physical evidence corroborates and converges here;

viewtopic.php?p=173277#p173277

Have you not heard of the Leuchter Report? Fred Leuchter took samples from all over, including Krema I and he found traces.
My point of showing COMPETING revisionist theories and then SETTLING ON THE BEST ONE BASED ON AVAILABLE EVIDENCE, is to show that NO MATTER WHERE YOU TURN, there are reasons for gas tight and air tight doors not relating to gassing humans. Hell, WE JUST SAW ANOTHER EXAMPLE of gas tight doors having NOTHING TO DO with gassing people.
You have jumped about competing hypothesis about what happened inside the various Leichenkellers. You have no idea which one is correct
The big text shows what a liar you are.
You say Mattogno "in the end won" and beat Butz and that gas doors are not for air raid shelters at Kremas II to V.
You're getting confused in your trolling. Mattogno and Butz fought about Vergasungskellar. Mattogno and Crowell fought about air raid shelters.
Correct, a gas tight door on its own does not prove homicidal gassings.
So I guess that means every time you point to a gas tight door and declare victory, it's not really a victory.
It is you who points to a gas tight door and declares victory, hence your use of Rudolf at the start of the thread.

A gas tight door can mean -

1. delousing
2. homicidal gassing
3. bomb shelter

To establish which of those reasons is why the door was fitted, we need to look at other evidence as to what was happening in the room it was fitted to. To make it more complicated, that room's purpose may also change over time. The Liechenkeller at Krema I is a perfect example of that. It was originally not a mortuary at all, it was an ammo store. Then it was a mortuary, then a gas chamber, then for a time it is not known what it was used for then it was a bomb shelter.
To find out why the Nazis fitted gas tight doors, we need to look at all of the evidence and you HATE that,
I'm the one who TAKES THE TIME to ACCEPT a burden of proof for MY SIDE and bothers to quote Mattogno books, links back to Bob and I was a number in old debates, and takes the time to quote and attack three fake eyewitnesses. What has Nessie done for his side? NOTHING! So when he says I hate debating and posting things, he's clearly lying. :lol: I'm not looking for an excuse to not accept my burden of proof and do any homework. HE IS! I ASKED HIM TO LIST HIS WITNESSES AND EXAMINE THEIR TESTIMONY ONE AFTER THE OTHER! I TOLD HIM HE WAS FREE TO QUOTE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HE COULD FIND, EVEN THE ONES IN MATTOGNO'S BOOK. HE HAS REFUSED TO DO HIS HOMEWORK! WHO REALLY HATES GATHERING EVIDENCE AND PUTTING IT ON THE TABLE??? :D
Your idea of evidencing what happened inside the Leichenkeller from autumn 1941 to spring 1942 is to call the witnesses to gassings liars. No other academic discipline uses that method.
The fact that all Nessie needs is mere "eyewitness" testimony to confirm a document about gas tight doors, shows how he has things backwards. That's not how it works. Only documents can confirm eyewitnesses and not the other way around! WE SAW THAT HERE WHEN WE FIGURED OUT THIS PERSON LIED ABOUT HOW A BUNCH OF CZECH JEWS DIED. Wetzler lied about what happened to a bunch of Czech Jews. He claimed they were murdered but documents show the exact opposite.
viewtopic.php?p=172528#p172528
Documents confirm or refute eyewitnesses. They tower above people's admitted fallible or lying memory in the evidence hierarchy. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
I said you would not understand this;

viewtopic.php?p=173277#p173277

In the case of Krema I, there are no documents to show what was happening inside the Leichenkeller, autumn 1941 to spring 1942.

Your claim is a ventilation system was built, ventilation is needed for a mortuary, therefore it was a mortuary. That is a non sequitur, since a ventilation system is also appropriate for delousing, homicidal gassing and a bomb shelter.

To find out which one it was, we need to look at the rest of the evidence. The other evidence as to what was happening is only from witnesses. Nothing else. Those witnesses claim gassings by dropping Zyklon B through holes in the roof and venting the chamber to remove the bodies to the ovens. The physical evidence of holes, traces of Zyklon B, a ventilation system and the ovens then supports and corroborates the witness evidence. The physical evidence confirms what the witnesses claim.

But you will not understand that. Oh, by the way, documents are not as infallible as you suggest. Mistakes are made, for example with the Hofle Telegram, where a 5 was missed from the TII total. Plus, if documents always trump witnesses, the Stroop Report proves Jews were murdered at TII.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
Posts: 10181
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:38 am
Contact:

Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:06 pm
"The best you could" was to copy and paste Mattogno's arguments from incredulity and ignorance, which are fallacies and not evidence.
Including the documentation that forced you to admit that the morgue was actually used for storing corpses and that the ventilation system that was being discussed as far back as November 1940 for the ventilation room was genuinely about ventilating a genuine corpse room?
Including the witness critiques that showed at a MINIMUM, three detectable liars so far?
Including the original plans of the whole Krema which allowed Bob to make those posts showing how the Poles screwed up their "reconstruction" and revealed that those so called Zyklon B holes aren't evenly distributed on the roof of the morgue?
:lol:
It is not good enough to claim the witnesses lied, therefore no gassings. You HAVE to provide evidence as to what did happen.
We didn't have to locate every Jew after the war to figure out that one so called witness lied about what happened to those Czech Jews. All we had to do was check the documents of the Central Construction Office (ZBL) of Auschwitz. No wild goose chase necessary.
We can also check the original building plans and the current state of the polish "reconstruction" and see if the Poles made any mistakes in their "reconstruction." No wild goose chase about where all the Jews went is necessary.
We also don't need to go on a wild goose Jew chase for populations post war when discussing why we should believe your ad hoc that Krema I is the only place where Nazis put alleged gassing holes in unevenly, but did it properly for the other Kremas. :lol:
I have never denied that when I make a claim, the burden of proof is on me.
Since you apparently admit that documents about gassing people don't exist, can you still show me ANY trace of Zyklon B in that room in Krema I?


Correct, a gas tight door on its own does not prove homicidal gassings.
So I guess that means every time you point to a gas tight door and declare victory, it's not really a victory.
It is you who points to a gas tight door and declares victory,
I'm showing how an actual gas tight door, of the type that the Nazis were KNOWN FOR ORDERING would not have been properly anchored into the wall. HENCE, why you tried to say one made by the Germans in the camp that wasn't a super dense, heavy, metal, steel door could have still served as a good enough air tight door. I'm declaring victory on the fact that the BEST DOOR FOR THE JOB could not have been used.
Your idea of evidencing what happened inside the Leichenkeller from autumn 1941 to spring 1942 is to call the witnesses to gassings liars.
Three of them, yes. Feel free to quote any others at length and justify their credibility.
No other academic discipline uses that method.
Historians call people of history liars and frauds all the time, silly. What are you even talking about? :lol:
Your claim is a ventilation system was built, ventilation is needed for a mortuary, therefore it was a mortuary. That is a non sequitur,
Not pre October 1941, jackass. :lol: It's up to you to prove gassing started then. So did the work that Grabner want done as far back as his complaint in June that ran into September and October 1941 on the ventilation system, was it completed BEFORE or DURING the gassing of Jews? Which means, did they empty the room of corpses before gassing, or were there some gassings with corpses still inside? :roll:
YOU NEVER ANSWERED ME THE FIRST TIME I ASKED THAT. YOU DUCKED LIKE A COWARD!
documents are not as infallible as you suggest. Mistakes are made, for example with the Hofle Telegram, where a 5 was missed from the TII total. Plus, if documents always trump witnesses, the Stroop Report proves Jews were murdered at TII.
1. This has NOTHING TO DO with how that one Jew CLEARLY LIED about what happened to those Czech Jews. If you now want to construct a stupid conspiracy theory about how the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz faked those documents to cover up the real homicide, be my guest. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.

2. I can just as easily take your attempt to shit on documents and say that documents with "gas tight" proves nothing. OH WAIT, WE ALREADY SAW THAT NOT EVERY THING IS A CRIMINAL TRACE!

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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:40 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:06 pm
"The best you could" was to copy and paste Mattogno's arguments from incredulity and ignorance, which are fallacies and not evidence.
Including the documentation that forced you to admit that the morgue was actually used for storing corpses and that the ventilation system that was being discussed as far back as November 1940 for the ventilation room was genuinely about ventilating a genuine corpse room?
I never denied that was it's original use.
Including the witness critiques that showed at a MINIMUM, three detectable liars so far?
Wetzler is not a witness to what happened inside the Leichenkeller.
Including the original plans of the whole Krema which allowed Bob to make those posts showing how the Poles screwed up their "reconstruction" and revealed that those so called Zyklon B holes aren't evenly distributed on the roof of the morgue?
:lol:
That is not evidence, it is an argument from incredulity.
It is not good enough to claim the witnesses lied, therefore no gassings. You HAVE to provide evidence as to what did happen.
We didn't have to locate every Jew after the war to figure out that one so called witness lied about what happened to those Czech Jews. All we had to do was check the documents of the Central Construction Office (ZBL) of Auschwitz. No wild goose chase necessary.
We can also check the original building plans and the current state of the polish "reconstruction" and see if the Poles made any mistakes in their "reconstruction." No wild goose chase about where all the Jews went is necessary.
We also don't need to go on a wild goose Jew chase for populations post war when discussing why we should believe your ad hoc that Krema I is the only place where Nazis put alleged gassing holes in unevenly, but did it properly for the other Kremas. :lol:
I have never denied that when I make a claim, the burden of proof is on me.
Since you apparently admit that documents about gassing people don't exist, can you still show me ANY trace of Zyklon B in that room in Krema I?
Again, the Leuchter Report.
Correct, a gas tight door on its own does not prove homicidal gassings.
So I guess that means every time you point to a gas tight door and declare victory, it's not really a victory.
It is you who points to a gas tight door and declares victory,
I'm showing how an actual gas tight door, of the type that the Nazis were KNOWN FOR ORDERING would not have been properly anchored into the wall. HENCE, why you tried to say one made by the Germans in the camp that wasn't a super dense, heavy, metal, steel door could have still served as a good enough air tight door. I'm declaring victory on the fact that the BEST DOOR FOR THE JOB could not have been used.
Yet again you rely on an argument from incredulity, which is not evidence. There is not just one type of secure gas tight door.
Your idea of evidencing what happened inside the Leichenkeller from autumn 1941 to spring 1942 is to call the witnesses to gassings liars.
Three of them, yes. Feel free to quote any others at length and justify their credibility.
One of them is not a witness to the Leichenkeller.
No other academic discipline uses that method.
Historians call people of history liars and frauds all the time, silly. What are you even talking about? :lol:
That no historian has investigated a time in history by only looking at the witness evidence and declaring since they all lied about something, therefore something else happened.
Your claim is a ventilation system was built, ventilation is needed for a mortuary, therefore it was a mortuary. That is a non sequitur,
Not pre October 1941, jackass. :lol: It's up to you to prove gassing started then. So did the work that Grabner want done as far back as his complaint in June that ran into September and October 1941 on the ventilation system, was it completed BEFORE or DURING the gassing of Jews? Which means, did they empty the room of corpses before gassing, or were there some gassings with corpses still inside? :roll:
YOU NEVER ANSWERED ME THE FIRST TIME I ASKED THAT. YOU DUCKED LIKE A COWARD!
I did answer you, I pointed out the Scrapbookpages source I used may have been out by a month.

That corpses were originally stored there, does not mean that was the only thing that room was only ever used for.
documents are not as infallible as you suggest. Mistakes are made, for example with the Hofle Telegram, where a 5 was missed from the TII total. Plus, if documents always trump witnesses, the Stroop Report proves Jews were murdered at TII.
1. This has NOTHING TO DO with how that one Jew CLEARLY LIED about what happened to those Czech Jews. If you now want to construct a stupid conspiracy theory about how the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz faked those documents to cover up the real homicide, be my guest. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.

2. I can just as easily take your attempt to shit on documents and say that documents with "gas tight" proves nothing. OH WAIT, WE ALREADY SAW THAT NOT EVERY THING IS A CRIMINAL TRACE!
1. He was not a witness to what happened inside the Leichekeller.
2. Correct, gas tight doors can be used for multiple uses.

There is corroborating witness evidence that for a time, the Leichenkeller was used for gassings.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Huntinger »

There is corroborating witness evidence that for a time, the Leichenkeller was used for gassings.
Eyewitnesses, all Yiddish, all liars. Nothing else yet this poster thinks they are worthy and reliable.


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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:19 pm
can you still show me ANY trace of Zyklon B in that room in Krema I?
Again, the Leuchter Report.
Since the Rudolf report updated and fixed many errors, I'll check the Rudolf report instead.
I'm declaring victory on the fact that the BEST DOOR FOR THE JOB could not have been used.
Yet again you rely on an argument from incredulity, which is not evidence.
Using your NON expertise against REAL experts who TELL YOU that a heavy, proper gas tight steel door could NOT have been securely anchored means nothing. :lol:
There is not just one type of secure gas tight door.
And that's why your accusation of non sequitor fails. Of course a less heavier, less dense door MAY have been used. As I said I'm claiming victory that a certain type of door could NOT have been used. Stop obscuring specifics with vague language.
no historian has investigated a time in history by only looking at the witness evidence
That's not what Mattogno and Bob have done. They haven't just focused on witnesses so quit complaining.
So did the work that Grabner want done as far back as his complaint in June that ran into September and October 1941 on the ventilation system, was it completed BEFORE or DURING the gassing of Jews? Which means, did they empty the room of corpses before gassing, or were there some gassings with corpses still inside? :roll:
I did answer you, I pointed out the Scrapbookpages source I used may have been out by a month.
Link and quote please. Show me what they are basing the month of October on? And then tell me whether this source says the corpses were all moved out by the time the gassing started or if gassing was happening with some corpses still inside. :lol:

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Re: Rudolf once again destroys Krema I propaganda

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:33 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:19 pm
can you still show me ANY trace of Zyklon B in that room in Krema I?
Again, the Leuchter Report.
Since the Rudolf report updated and fixed many errors, I'll check the Rudolf report instead.
I'm declaring victory on the fact that the BEST DOOR FOR THE JOB could not have been used.
Yet again you rely on an argument from incredulity, which is not evidence.
Using your NON expertise against REAL experts who TELL YOU that a heavy, proper gas tight steel door could NOT have been securely anchored means nothing. :lol:
Rudolf is a builder specialising in fitting metal doors?
There is not just one type of secure gas tight door.
And that's why your accusation of non sequitor fails. Of course a less heavier, less dense door MAY have been used. As I said I'm claiming victory that a certain type of door could NOT have been used. Stop obscuring specifics with vague language.
Your admission other gas proof doors fit, hands the victory to me. That one type of gas door would not fit does not mean no gassings, that is a non sequitur.
no historian has investigated a time in history by only looking at the witness evidence
That's not what Mattogno and Bob have done. They haven't just focused on witnesses so quit complaining.
They both dispute the evidence for gassings, without producing any evidence as to what happened. No historian does that.
So did the work that Grabner want done as far back as his complaint in June that ran into September and October 1941 on the ventilation system, was it completed BEFORE or DURING the gassing of Jews? Which means, did they empty the room of corpses before gassing, or were there some gassings with corpses still inside? :roll:
I did answer you, I pointed out the Scrapbookpages source I used may have been out by a month.
Link and quote please.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4238&p=173202&hilit=month#p173202

"If the ventilation work was continuing until October 1941, all that does, is mean the secondary source is one month out. Instead of gassings starting in September, they start in October."
Show me what they are basing the month of October on? And then tell me whether this source says the corpses were all moved out by the time the gassing started or if gassing was happening with some corpses still inside. :lol:
I do not know where scrapbookpages sourced their information from. I checked other sources and there does appear to be uncertainty when gassings started, so it is not unreasonable that it could be October, not September. I am going with they stopped using the room as a corpse store when they started gassing people. A change of use usually means that what happened before is replaced with the new purpose. :roll:

You have failed to produce any evidence that the Leichenkeller was in continual use as a corpse store throughout 1941 and 1942. I have produced corroborating evidence it was used for a number of months as a gas chamber.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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