Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

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Bulldog
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Bulldog »

Nessie:
It is significant that the senior Nazi defence was not knowing about or not responsible for gassings, not that it did not happen at all. If they had claimed something else happened at the AR camps and inside the kremas, they would have had to evidence that.


There were mass gassings at the AR camps?

How many were gassed?

What happened to the bodies after they were gassed?


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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Bulldog »

Nessie:
That is in part because no AR camp guard or member of the EG ever said anything other than gassings or mass shootings took place.
So gassing AND mass shootings took place at the AR camps?

How many were gassed?

How many were shot?

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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

been-there wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:15 pm

Excellent! :)

Thanks for this, Torus.
You're welcome.

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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Who were the Nazis that "boasted" the 6 million?

Nazis Boasted About Six Million Holocaust Victims. But It Was a Jew Who First Cited That Figure
A historian embarks on a pioneering archival journey to discover the first time that someone used the number

https://archive.fo/1aM19#selection-2185.427-2189.98

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Huntinger »

torus9 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:23 am
Who were the Nazis that "boasted" the 6 million?
https://archive.fo/1aM19#selection-2185.427-2189.98
The article says:
Yet the question remained: Who was the first to mention the number 6 million,. It turns out that Eichmann was preceded by a Jewish Holocaust survivor, who early in 1944 reported the number 6 million.
Actually we can go back to October 31, 1869

It seems juden never stop lying.
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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Huntinger wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:40 am
torus9 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:23 am
Who were the Nazis that "boasted" the 6 million?
https://archive.fo/1aM19#selection-2185.427-2189.98
"...it is well to remember how recent is the beginning of professional study of the holocaust and how short a period of time the enterprise has had to establish itself. Up to the time of the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem, in 1961, there was relatively little discussion of the massacre of European Jewry. At Nuremberg, immediately after the war, crimes against the Jews were part of the proceedings conducted by the International Military Tribunal, but such crimes never assumed a prominent place. But these trials did not draw wide attention and were not the occasion for recounting the full history of mass murder."
- M. Marrus, The Holocaust in History

I find the use of the word "enterprise" to be distasteful, if not somewhat questionable. (I know, 'Torus9, quit being such a grammar-nazi.')

Yet the Haaretz article states...

On January 21, 1944, about a year and a half before the end of World War II, a dramatic item was published on the front page of Haaretz. Under the headline “Six million Jewish victims,” it brought unusual testimony for the time about the number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust. “Six million – that’s the calculation made by two young men in a meeting with members of their party organizations in Palestine,” the report said.

“With pencil in hand they counted the number of victims in each country and reached an astonishing number – 6 million Jews were murdered and killed and died in Nazi-occupied countries in death camps, concentration camps, labor camps and the various ghettos,” the article said.

That's a staggeringly laborious "enterprise" under the best of circumstances.

"...the terrain is so unfamiliar, the frame of reference so horrifying and bizarre, and the cultural landmarks so unintelligble that customary historical methods may simply fail."
The Holocaust in History, p.129
Last edited by torus9 on Sun May 17, 2020 4:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

torus9 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 2:05 am
“With pencil in hand they counted the number of victims in each country and reached an astonishing number – 6 million
Am I to conclude that paper was not involved? This evokes such a contrived rustic quality that is somewhat "Spielberg-ian."

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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Huntinger wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:40 am
Image
"Anticipating a great disaster for European Jewry in 1938, Vladimir Jabotinsky, leader of the right wing Zionist Revisionists, called for mass evacuation. In his view, however, the source of the coming catastrophe was East European antisemitism, not that of the Nazis."*
- The Holocaust in History, citing Joseph Schectman,
Fighter and Prophet: The Vladimir Jabotinsky Story,
The Last Years (New York, 1961)

*"Neither Goebbels, Himmler, Goering, Frank, Hess, the Strasser brothers, nor even Adolf Eichmann seems to have joined the Nazis because of anti-semitism."
The Holocaust in History, p.11

I'd love to see the caricature that would be invoked were I to ask random talking-heads within Canadian media, "what's your take on those right wing Zionist Revisionists?"

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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Here we see the anti-Germanic antics that I imagine nurtured Goldhagen's opportunism.

"The British historian Ian Kershaw has undertaken one of the few investigations of such issues in his study of Bavarian opinion from 1933-1945...

His quarry is the ordinary Germans behind the scenes - "the muddled majority, neither full-hearted Nazis nor outright opponents, whose attitudes at one and the same time betray signs of Nazi ideological penetration and yet show the clear limits of propaganda manipulation." Kershaw limits his description to the largely Catholic province of Bavaria, the cradle of Nazism and for many years the base of the movement. His conclusions are qualified, but suggest nevertheless that the ideological conformity to which Propaganda Minister Goebbels aspired was never realized. Germans remained divided by Nazism and never gave themselves entirely to the regime. At the same time, they were seldom preoccupied with public affairs or the deeper issues posed by a criminal society. Kershaw's Germans, indeed, will appear to many disturbingly normal."

The Holocaust in History, citing Ian Kershaw, Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich: Bavaria, 1933-1945 (Oxford,1983), viii, which draws upon idem, "Antisemitismus und Volksmeinung: Reaktion auf die Judenverfolgung," in Martin Broszat et al., Bayern in der NS-Zeit (Munich, 1979), II, 281-300. See also idem, Der Hitler: Mythos: Volksmeinung und Propaganda im Dritten Reich (Stuttgart, 1980); and idem, "The Persecution of the Jews and German Popular Opinion in the Third Reich," Leo Baeck Institute Year Book 26 (1981), 261-89.

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torus9
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

And where is all this verbiage headed? Indeed....One man, one goal, one helluva psychic athlete.

"In the end it was Hitler, and his own determination to realize his anti-semitic fantasies, that made the difference. The implication is summed up in the title of a popular article on a related theme: "No Hitler, No Holocaust."
The Holocaust In History, citing Milton Himmelfarb in Commentary, March 1984, 37-43

"What was particularly mischievous about Irving's argument was the notion that without explicit, written orders, it was impossible to assign responsibility for the Final Solution. Numerous critics have made clear that such orders were probably not necessary at all to begin the killing process. Authority in the Third Reich flowed not from laws and orders, issued by carefully delimited agencies, but rather from expressions of Hitler's will. Channels of government were frequently circumvented in favor of proclamations that such or so was "the Fuhrer's wish. "What he actually meant, OR WHETHER HE REALLY MEANT IT (emphasis mine), might have been a matter of tone as well as language. When he spoke 'coldly' and in a 'low voice' about 'horrifying' decisions 'also at the dinner table,' then his audience knew that he was serious.'" From one to another, Nazi leaders transmitted the latest impulse.
The Holocaust In History, citing Hilberg, Destruction of the European Jews

Remember, we're dealing with a one-testicled and rusty mainspring here who operated in fits, starts, twitches, and farts. Those "disturbingly normal" Germans could obviously decode his sexual frustration.
Last edited by torus9 on Sun May 17, 2020 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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