Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Nessie
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Re: Konzentrationslager -Treblinka B

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:41 am
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:09 am
IIRC, when Franz was ordered to draw a map of T-II, the map he drew was actually a map of Malkinia. Can't recall all of the details.
Thanks, the information I think you are referring to is found below. Arnulf Neumaier
In prison, more than 15 years after the fact, Kurt Franz - the main defendant in the Treblinka Trial of 1965 - drew a sketch, from memory, of the camp where he had been employed as of November 1942. This sketch could perforce not be correct in every detail, considering the many years of constant influencing that had gone by, but it differed entirely and not only in its external form from Treblinka II (B) as it is shown on an official Polish layout. As we know today, the camp as described by the witnesses is a mixture of conditions and elements from the camps Treblinka II and Malkinia. A stunning confirmation of Franz's camp sketch was found on an aerial photograph of May 13, 1944, which is held in the National Archives. This camp is also the source of the terms 'lower' and 'upper' camp, as Franz had already marked on his sketch. The smaller 'upper camp' was separated from the 'lower camp' by a road. Franz was able to label the buildings in the camp and to mark his sketch with a large number of the surnames of the personnel in Malkinia, including his own surname, Franz, in relation to certain areas of the camp. The fact that many eyewitnesses describe this camp casts a rather dubious light on these witness statements, as the transit camp Malkinia has never been suspected of harboring an extermination center.
SS-UnterscharführerJosef HIRTREITER is said to confess to working with an SS Sonderkommando at Balkinia, Poland. In his confession he said he worked at Balkinia which may be a different place to Malkinia. In his trial this was discounted and he was held accountable for atrocities at Treblinka II.
Image
Some might say Josef was confused; note he says he later found out people were gassed. As this was a transit camp no doubt he was witnessing a shower or delousing process. He was sentenced to life imprisonment on 3 March 1951 on juüdisch inspired trumped up charges.

There were no mass murders at Konzentrationslager TII or B; this is apparent due to the convoluted claims and almost total lack of confirming evidence. Finding a few KFC drumsticks at the site or grannies ashes means little, nor does asking where they went makes any sense.

It is clear that records were destroyed, train records, most likely by the Soviets and Polish Commission. It is also clear that thousands were executed in the Czerwony Bór forest (red forest) 50km north of the Treblinka Town by Einsatzgruppen. These executions of Juden were not only from local ghettos but from one 50km away. The reasons for these executions is unknown but most likely due to Partizan activity.

The US Intelligence was aware of the red forest executions and related this to Treblinka being in the same region as the camps. The Polish underground also equated these executions with the Treblinka complexes.
All the above does is confirm there was a death camp at Treblinka and the some included the Malkinia transit camp as one of the Treblinka camps and that people did get the camps mixed up.

All of the prisoners who worked at TII (being the camp on the spur leading to the quarry and TI) and all of the local Polish rail workers, agreed that it was the death camp.

Note how the more you look for evidence to show daily mass transports back out of that camp, you still cannot find any. There are historians and even some deniers such as Mattogno who know much more than you about searching for evidence. They have also found no evidence of daily mass transports back out of TII.

The reason for no evidence is either;

A - there were no daily mass transports of prisoners back out of the camp
B - the Germans, Ukrainians, Poles, Soviets and Jews, despite being at war and hating each other, all cooperated to track down and destroy all of the evidence, starting in 1943, when the camp was closed down and razed to the ground and at all of the possible destinations and they did a perfect job. But they strangely did not destroy all of the records showing mass transports to TII, leaving them with the problem of mass arrivals and no sign of mass departures.

Logic, the evidence and Occam's razor tells us that the answer is A. Denier la la land claims the answer is B.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

The current Treblinka II camp location is symbolic more than factual. The real extermination centre was in the Red Forest; this is where thousands of rebels were dealt with according to law. It was so secret few facts remain. It was known about by US intelligence in 1941 as well as by Polish Underground. Where they went is simply a red herring and not relevant to the true history.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Turnagain »

Where are the records for the trainload of men, women and children who left Treblinka? Where are the records for the trainload of all women who left Treblinka? Where are the records for all of the smaller groups of people who left Treblinka? Where are the records for the maintenance of all those people?

Oh, that's right, Nessie don't need no steenkin' records for those people. He just demands the records for the other people who transited through Treblinka. If those records can't be produced then all those people were gassed/asphyxiated in the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers. Cremated on the magic Jew barbeque without any fuel, too. Suuuuure, let's hear more tales from holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:46 am
Where are the records for the trainload of men, women and children who left Treblinka? Where are the records for the trainload of all women who left Treblinka? Where are the records for all of the smaller groups of people who left Treblinka? Where are the records for the maintenance of all those people?

Oh, that's right, Nessie don't need no steenkin' records for those people.
There are no records of anyone ever leaving TIII, because that was a legitimate place of death; as mentioned even though the arbeitslager had people coming and going with relatively short lags in the clink, there are no records of them either. They were not executed, not are there horror stories; if events were occurring a few hundred metres away from where they worked they would have seen such things (with their own eyes if they are juden ;) ); not a top secret facility at all. The 1941 directive announcing the establishment of the "Treblinka Labor Camp" was published in both Polish and German in widely distributed official journals. Poles and Yids worked in a large sand and gravel quarry at the Treblinka labor camp (arbeitslager).

Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Yids who, by all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a transit center from where Yids were resettled in the occupied Soviet territories. By resettled it is meant to work and occupy homes left vacant by those transported by the Soviets to the interior of Russia.

Häftling Richard Glazer (jude) later testified. "All the Poles between there and Warsaw must have known about it, and lived off the proceeds. All the peasants came to barter, the Warsaw whores did business with the Ukrainians -- it was a circus for all of them." Polish farmers worked the fields that directly adjoined the camp. "And many others," said Jüdisch survivor Berek Rojzman, "came to the fence to barter, mostly with the Ukrainians, but with us too."


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:28 am
The current Treblinka II camp location is symbolic more than factual. The real extermination centre was in the Red Forest; this is where thousands of rebels were dealt with according to law. It was so secret few facts remain. It was known about by US intelligence in 1941 as well as by Polish Underground. Where they went is simply a red herring and not relevant to the true history.
The current TII location was determined from multiple eye witnesses during the war and first investigated in 1945. It is on the rail spur to the quarry and camp at TI. That you take secondary intelligence hearsay over primary eye witness evidence shows that you do not understand the hierarchy of evidence.

Where those people went, if they even left the camp, is crucial to the denier claim. Because denial cannot even prove they left the camp, is why deniers dismiss the need to establish mass daily departures as a red herring.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:46 am
Where are the records for the trainload of men, women and children who left Treblinka? Where are the records for the trainload of all women who left Treblinka? Where are the records for all of the smaller groups of people who left Treblinka? Where are the records for the maintenance of all those people?
The archives for Majdanek and Budzyn. Mattogno found some records at Majdanek. I do not know who has looked at the Budzyn archives.
Oh, that's right, Nessie don't need no steenkin' records for those people.
Wrong, records to corroborate the witness evidence is important.
He just demands the records for the other people who transited through Treblinka.
I demand evidence for any and all transports back out of TII. After decades of searching, the only evidence is for a few thousand workers sent to Majdanek and Budzyn, where they were accommodated and worked.
If those records can't be produced then all those people were gassed/asphyxiated in the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers. Cremated on the magic Jew barbeque without any fuel, too. Suuuuure, let's hear more tales from holyhoax la-la land.
The lack of any evidence of daily mass departures from TII gives credibility to witness claims about gassings, burials and cremations. Note I said credibility, not evidence. They are two different things. Not that you will understand.

Just because you do not think the witness descriptions of gassings etc would work, does not therefore mean the Germans could not have gassed etc. That is basic logic, but too complicated for you to understand.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:35 am
The current TII location was determined from multiple eye witnesses during the war and first investigated in 1945. It is on the rail spur to the quarry and camp at TI. That you take secondary intelligence hearsay over primary eye witness evidence shows that you do not understand the hierarchy of evidence.

Where those people went, if they even left the camp, is crucial to the denier claim. Because denial cannot even prove they left the camp, is why deniers dismiss the need to establish mass daily departures as a red herring.
The eyewitnesses saw a konzentrationslager; the investigations of 1945 have no bearing due to the complicity with the Soviets; that aside, nothing of consequence was found. There are two corroborating intelligence reports from different people as well as the reports of round up in various places within a 100km radius of the Red Forest. The link is the word Forest where people confused the Red Forest with the copse of trees in the Treblinka region. There is little doubt about thousands of executions in Czerwony bor forest, all juden; at least at this stage.

I think it was mentioned that it is likely that thousands of Warsaw yids would have been executed for their part in the uprising as per German Law. It is likely they went to Czerwony bor on the pretext of a transit; they would not have returned, none of them. They would have been hanged or shot. Treblinka is a region of camps not a specific one. More research to be done but initial calculations of dead Yids at the red forest would be about 8 thousand. This cannot be classed as a war crime as it is legal to execute Partizani summarily as their existence breaks the rules of the Geneva Convention.
Just because you do not think the witness descriptions of gassings etc would work, does not therefore mean the Germans could not have gassed etc. That is basic logic, but too complicated for you to understand.
The Einsatz Kommandos at the Red Forest had little need for the niceties of gas; a rope or a bullet did just fine to dispatch terrorist yids.


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:49 am
Nessie wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:35 am
The current TII location was determined from multiple eye witnesses during the war and first investigated in 1945. It is on the rail spur to the quarry and camp at TI. That you take secondary intelligence hearsay over primary eye witness evidence shows that you do not understand the hierarchy of evidence.

Where those people went, if they even left the camp, is crucial to the denier claim. Because denial cannot even prove they left the camp, is why deniers dismiss the need to establish mass daily departures as a red herring.
The eyewitnesses saw a konzentrationslager; the investigations of 1945 have no bearing due to the complicity with the Soviets; that aside, nothing of consequence was found. There are two corroborating intelligence reports from different people as well as the reports of round up in various places within a 100km radius of the Red Forest. The link is the word Forest where people confused the Red Forest with the copse of trees in the Treblinka region. There is little doubt about thousands of executions in Czerwony bor forest, all juden; at least at this stage.

I think it was mentioned that it is likely that thousands of Warsaw yids would have been executed for their part in the uprising as per German Law. It is likely they went to Czerwony bor on the pretext of a transit; they would not have returned, none of them. They would have been hanged or shot. Treblinka is a region of camps not a specific one. More research to be done but initial calculations of dead Yids at the red forest would be about 8 thousand. This cannot be classed as a war crime as it is legal to execute Partizani summarily as their existence breaks the rules of the Geneva Convention.
Just because you do not think the witness descriptions of gassings etc would work, does not therefore mean the Germans could not have gassed etc. That is basic logic, but too complicated for you to understand.
The Einsatz Kommandos at the Red Forest had little need for the niceties of gas; a rope or a bullet did just fine to dispatch terrorist yids.
You are the only person who thinks that there was a death camp in the forest at Czerwony bor. You claim you have done research, but I have seen your idea of research. You lied you went to New Zealand to investigate the Mosque mass shooting and you plagiarise online sources.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Turnagain »

Then produce the effing records, Nessie. It's known that at least two trainloads of people transited through Treblinka along with many more smaller groups of deportees. There is one (1) known record of a deportation that fits one (1) of the smaller groups of deportees. That was for 352 men. You say that Mattogno has found records for 400 people who were sent from Treblinka to Majdanek. There are apparently NO records for the maintenance of those people.

That is a grand total of records for 752 people who transited through Treblinka from a known 10,000 to 15,000 deportees. You claim that since there aren't any records for the alleged 849,248 remaining people then they must have been gassed/asphyxiated in the gas/vacuum chambers.
Just because you do not think the witness descriptions of gassings etc would work, does not therefore mean the Germans could not have gassed etc. That is basic logic, but too complicated for you to understand.
The witnesses describe impossibilities. That is NOT my opinion. That is a fact but is too complicated for you to understand. Eyewitnesses stated unequivocally that the gas/vacuum chambers were hermetically sealed. An eyewitness stated unequivocally that the air was evacuated from the chambers and exhaust from an engine was pumped into it. Another eyewitness stated that the Germans operated the chambers both as a gas chamber and a vacuum chamber. Other witnesses claim that the exhaust from the engine was pumped into the chamber without evacuating the air from it. That violates physical laws and is NOT possible. What can't you understand about that?

Your claim is, "WHAT IF the Germans knew how to operate the gas/vacuum chambers?", and "WHAT IF the all the witnesses were mistaken?". Sell your "what if the little boy rode his tricycle to the moon" scenarios down the street, Nessie. ''WHAT IF the Germans knew how to operate a gas/vacuum chamber?" => Then they "COULDA" killed all the Jews." => The Germans killed the Jews".

You need witnesses and records to support your thesis that the Jews were murdered at Treblinka and you don't have them. What you do have are liars and your "what ifs". You have nothing but fantasies and lies from holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:20 pm
You are the only person who thinks that there was a death camp in the forest at Czerwony bor.
The US intelligence thought there was a death camp III and so did the Polish Underground. The interesting thing about Czerwony Bor is that some claim it was a site of mass execution while other Juden claim there was a ghetto there. There is a report that almost all Jüdisch inhabitants of Tykocin were shot in a forest near Łopuchowo on 25th August 1941; these people thought they were going to a ghetto in Czerwony Bor.

Ciechanow yids were shot locally while many were transited. What do you think the criteria for being shot was? Not for being kike that is for sure; for some crime. Between 1941 and 1944, during German occupation of Poland, German commandos carried out mass killings of Poles and the Polish kikes trucked in from the Łomża Ghetto among other places, executed into pits on the outskirts of the Giełczyn forest. Giełczyn is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Łomża, within Łomża County, Podlaskie Voivodeship, in north-eastern Poland. It lies approximately 6 kilometres south of Łomża and 74 km (46 mi) west of the regional capital Białystok. That forest is 53km from Treblinka and the same general area as the red wood.

Funny why some people are shot and others are sent to camps in this story,


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