What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

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Enigma Charlie
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What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

Greetings to everyone,

I have made this thread to get a clear insight into what a Holocaust revisionist actually thinks the Holocaust was and what happened to the Jews during the war.

1. Historians continue to debate about the origins of the Holocaust. It is known as “Functionalism versus intentionalism”. The two most important questions are:
Was there a master plan on the part of Adolf Hitler to launch the Holocaust? Intentionalists argue there was such a plan, while functionalists argue there was not.

Did the initiative for the Holocaust come from above with orders from Adolf Hitler or from below within the ranks of the German bureaucracy? Although neither side disputes the reality of the Holocaust, nor is there serious dispute over the premise that Hitler (as Führer) was personally responsible for encouraging the anti-Semitism that allowed the Holocaust to take place, intentionalists argue the initiative came from above, while functionalists contend it came from lower ranks within the bureaucracy.
What do you think?

2. The various methods that were used to kill Jews and others have been established for decades. Namely gassing, shooting, starving, etc. Do you deny that the Nazis used any of those methods to kill Jews and others?

3. Some six million Jews died in the Holocaust. If you disagree with that figure, how many were killed? What are your sources?

4. The Nazis often used euphemism to refer to what they were doing to the Jews. Such phrases like “special handling” (although it certain contexts the term can mean different things) became to be known as referring to the killing of Jews. Another example is when Himmler used the term ‘partisan’ to refer to Jews so the Einsatzgruppen in the East justified their killings under the pretext of killing partisans. However, over time, the term ‘Jews’ became explicitly known and no longer hidden under any pretext. Himmler was so twisted that in his own deranged mind he even justified the killing of Jewish children for crying out loud!

5. After reading a few threads on the first page of this section on this forum I have noticed that some people think that pointing out a few alleged mistakes means that the whole thing never happened. Pointing out a few mistakes from Holocaust survivors does not prove that the Holocaust never happened.

6. Making claims without any evidence to back them up. I think this is one of my biggest problems with Holocaust “revisionism”. For example, Turnagain on another thread made the unfounded claim that the gas chambers at Treblinka probably never existed. I mean, really? I mean if one is going to make wild claims and then have the audacity to ask people who disbelieve him to show evidence for something just goes to show how disingenuous some people can behave.

Another often repeated claim is that the Nazis, ordinary Germans, Nazi collaborators and others who testified what happened were coerced in some way or another, but there is no evidence to support that claim. The repeated citation of Rudolf Höss is not relevant in what he later testified because the torture did not happen when he testified later and what he stated is collaborated with what others also stated. Strangely enough, the book which the torture is mentioned is “Legions of Death: The Nazi Enslavement of Europe” by Rupert Butler. Does the title of the book not give you a clue as to what is in the book? Anyone who wants to use the torture of Höss to be applied to every single person who testified what happened should perhaps read the whole book and not just cite a snippet of it to try and justify your claim. Butler is neither a Holocaust revisionist nor someone who not denies the Holocaust.

Butler wrote extensively about the gassings of Jews and overall the Holocaust.

He even wrote about Höss:

“Never once did Hoess attempt to evade responsibility or deny what he had done.”

The torture claim is one of the many wackadoodle claims constantly used by Holocaust revisionists.

7. Holocaust revisionists don’t get to decide what is to be considered the required or acceptable evidence. Are the people on here posting qualified historians and scholars? I don’t think so. The demand for some form of evidence is not how a reasonable discussion is conducted.

I seriously doubt that Holocaust revisionists have studied much of the evidence to prove what happened during the Holocaust. I don’t believe that anyone who has studied the evidence would doubt, or in some cases deny, that the Holocaust happened.

8. Attempting to discuss things which you have not studied. I don’t think it’s fair to say that all Holocaust revisionists are ignorant, uneducated, etc. But, before this post I took the time to read quite a few threads on this forum and I noticed that Holocaust revisionists often cite Holocaust revisionists for their claims, but they openly state that they refuse to read books by respected historians because they are just repeating Jewish propaganda or something other stupid excuse. I think that’s a pathetic cop-out and goes to show that Holocaust revisionists are not interested in a genuine debate because they are dismissing things they either don’t want to know or accept.

People who genuinely want to discuss the Holocaust will read both the arguments for and against it. Holocaust revisionists seem to only want to read things which allegedly refute the Holocaust and ignore everything else.

9. Do you accept that Holocaust revisionists have made some mistakes in the past? If so, what were those mistakes? Historians and scholars have corrected mistakes that were made in the past.

10. I have noticed that many people on here are still citing debunked and refuted claims such as citing Eric Hunt when he posted that his claims were disingenuous and that they didn’t prove a single thing.

So, ultimately it boils down to, why was the Holocaust a hoax?

It’s very easy to post online wild claims, but why does none of you attempt to debate historians in person so then the accusation of attempting to “weasel dodge” from questions about the Holocaust be there for everyone to see? Also, the evidence for and against would be argued. Do any of you have any new claims since Zundel and Irving made themselves look ridiculous in the courts?

Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory and those who believe in it also believe in other conspiracy theories. Who would have guessed? A conspiracy theorist by definition is not interested in a rational argument.

This forum is full of antisemitic posts, idolising Hitler and the Nazis, etc. I read someone post that those who genuinely believe that the Holocaust never happened are mentally ill and I just state that I agree with him. I think that holding the apparent belief in Holocaust denial is just one of the many neo-Nazi views some people believe in these days.

Kindest regards,

Charlie
Last edited by Enigma Charlie on Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Turnagain
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Turnagain »

Enigma Charlie wrote:
I have made this thread to get a clear insight into what a Holocaust revisionist actually thinks the Holocaust was and what happened to the Jews during the war.
The "holocaust" was a propaganda term coined in the early 70s to describe the war crime of the alleged policy of the National Socialists to exterminate the Jews of Europe.
1. Historians continue to debate about the origins of the Holocaust. It is known as “Functionalism versus intentionalism”.
Court historians limit their debate to what is politically acceptable or "Politically Correct". Academics do NOT allow an open debate on the subject of the holyhoax. Real debate is carried on outside of academia by such as Mattogno, Kues, Graf, Kollerstrom, Porter et al. The actual debate is about the claims made by believers and whether or not they are factual.
2. The various methods that were used to kill Jews and others have been established for decades.
The tools of war are well known. Poison gas has been used in warfare but not during WW II. Gassing Jews with Zyklon B or CO is imaginary horse frocky.
3. Some six million Jews died in the Holocaust.
The "six million" shibboleth is long forgotten. Not even the court historians claim the six million anymore. It is derisively referred to by the less reverent as the, "six gorillion".
4. The Nazis often used euphemism to refer to what they were doing to the Jews.
Your opinion doesn't count as objective fact. The word "sonder" was applied to a myriad of terms and bore no relation to murder.
5. After reading a few threads on the first page of this section on this forum I have noticed that some people think that pointing out a few alleged mistakes means that the whole thing never happened. Pointing out a few mistakes from Holocaust survivors does not prove that the Holocaust never happened.
Uh-huh, the fact that the witnesses lied and contradicted each other is irrelevant. "If it happened, it was possible". Sell such horse frocky down the street, Charley.

Well, halfway through this...whatever the hell you could call it so time for a break.

Enigma Charlie
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

Turnagain, all of your replies are refuted on Wikipedia’s article “Criticism of Holocaust denial”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici ... ust_denial

Try your hardest to read and comprehend the information in the article.

Kindest regards,

Charlie

Turnagain
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Turnagain »

Well, back to the grind of debunking Charley.
6. Making claims without any evidence to back them up. I think this is one of my biggest problems with Holocaust “revisionism”. For example, Turnagain on another thread made the unfounded claim that the gas chambers at Treblinka probably never existed. I mean, really? I mean if one is going to make wild claims and then have the audacity to ask people who disbelieve him to show evidence for something just goes to show how disingenuous some people can behave.
Uh-huh, no evidence. I've posted names and quotes from eleven (11) so-called witnesses who claim that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed with six (6) of them claiming that the gas chambers also functioned as a vacuum chamber. Before you start squealing for the entire list of names, begin with looking at the statements made by Bomba, Rajchman, Rosenberg, Wiernik and Leleko just for openers.

Just in case you haven't been following the debate, since the CO was supplied by a 27 liter IC engine, the engine would either stall or the building would fail in about two (2) minutes of engine operation. If the air was pumped out of the chamber, the pressure differential would cause the chamber to implode. (implosion vs. explosion for pumping the gas into the chamber) The rationale for the 27 liter engine and the calculations for its exhaust output have been posted so peruse at you leisure. Your claim that I've made claims without evidence is bullshit.
Another often repeated claim is that the Nazis, ordinary Germans, Nazi collaborators and others who testified what happened were coerced in some way or another, but there is no evidence to support that claim. The repeated citation of Rudolf Höss is not relevant in what he later testified because the torture did not happen when he testified later and what he stated is collaborated with what others also stated.
There's no doubt that Hoess was tortured. His guards openly admitted to depriving Hoess of sleep. They recounted how they "prodded him with axe handles" whenever he dozed off. IOW, they beat the shit out of him with axe handles if he appeared to be going to sleep. Hoess describes being beaten. The notion that the torture didn't count since Hoess wasn't being tortured when he testified is just about the most asinine thing I've heard in a long time.

Hoess knew that his life was forfeit and the indifference he showed to the actual sentence was remarked upon. The very best outcome he could hope for was to save his family from being sent to the Soviets. The fact that he confessed to the killing of three (3) million Jews while he was commandant of Auschwitz shows how truthful were his "confessions".
7. Holocaust revisionists don’t get to decide what is to be considered the required or acceptable evidence. Are the people on here posting qualified historians and scholars? I don’t think so. The demand for some form of evidence is not how a reasonable discussion is conducted.

I seriously doubt that Holocaust revisionists have studied much of the evidence to prove what happened during the Holocaust. I don’t believe that anyone who has studied the evidence would doubt, or in some cases deny, that the Holocaust happened.
Claiming that revisionist's are all a pack of uneducated rubes is truly the product of ignorance. Just for example, Nick Kollerstrom is a Ph.D in history. Arnulf Neumaier and Fritz Berg were both degreed engineers. I have the legal right to put letters from a university after my name should I choose to do so though not in history. Your "doubts" that revisionists know anything about the so-called holyhoax serves only to display your ignorance.
8. Attempting to discuss things which you have not studied. I don’t think it’s fair to say that all Holocaust revisionists are ignorant, uneducated, etc. "... but they openly state that they refuse to read books by respected historians because they are just repeating Jewish propaganda or something other stupid excuse".
See above.
9. Do you accept that Holocaust revisionists have made some mistakes in the past? If so, what were those mistakes? Historians and scholars have corrected mistakes that were made in the past.
Gee, when did you stop beating your dog and abusing your wife? Have you quit using drugs yet? How is the treatment for your pedophilia going? No hoaxer is complete without such self-serving questions.
It’s very easy to post online wild claims, but why does none of you attempt to debate historians in person so then the accusation of attempting to “weasel dodge” from questions about the Holocaust be there for everyone to see? Also, the evidence for and against would be argued.
Historians are NOT allowed to discuss or debate the holyhoax in an academic setting. Arthur Butz didn't publish the, "Hoax of the 20th Century" until after he gained tenure. Even though he was tenured and prevailed, there were numerous attempts to get him fired. Nick Kollerstrom wrote, "Breaking the Spell" and was immediately fired from his university position. What don't you understand about that?
Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory and those who believe in it also believe in other conspiracy theories.
What you believe or don't believe has about as much relevance to the discussion as a mongrel dog howling at the moon. Get over yourself.

Turnagain
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Turnagain »

Enigma Charley wrote:
Turnagain, all of your replies are refuted on Wikipedia’s article “Criticism of Holocaust denial”.
"Wikipedia". Such a sterling source. Gee, imagine finding support for the holyhoax on Wiki. I'm astonished. Gobsmacked even. I suppose that you can make even a bigger fool of yourself if you work at it real hard.

Enigma Charlie
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

You did not even bother to read the article but instead just repeated the same things you do on other threads.

Either refute the rebuttals of the Holocaust deniers’ arguments or accept that you cannot and Holocaust denial has no substance.

Kindest regards,

Charlie

Enigma Charlie
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:56 am
Gee, when did you stop beating your dog and abusing your wife? Have you quit using drugs yet? How is the treatment for your pedophilia going? No hoaxer is complete without such self-serving questions.
I admit that I just skimmed your overall post and by chance saw this part of your reply.

Well, this just goes to show your sick mindset. You are warped in the head and quite clearly the lights are on but nobody’s home.

Your post has been reported.

Due to this personal abuse, you are going on ignore.

I’ll not end this post how I normally end a post.

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TheGodfather
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by TheGodfather »

Don't feed the troll. This is clearly Goody67, there's literally no point arguing with him.

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

TheGodfather wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:56 pm
Don't feed the troll. This is clearly Goody67, there's literally no point arguing with him.
Ok. Thank you for your advice.

Kindest regards

Lupus

PS - why did you use the 'Godfather' account when you have ten others to choose from ?

Kindest regards again

Lupus again

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TheGodfather
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Re: What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?

Post by TheGodfather »

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:52 pm
TheGodfather wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:56 pm
Don't feed the troll. This is clearly Goody67, there's literally no point arguing with him.
PS - why did you use the 'Godfather' account when you have ten others to choose from ?
This is my only account. The ''ten others'' are in your fevered imagination.

Kindest regards,

TheGodfather

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