Where did they go

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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
That link tells you how many people were accommodated at Majdanek.
That site provides NO documentation for any of it's claims. What can't you understand about that? Can you comprehend what a document is? You provide zero documents for your claims and then immediately demand hard copy written documents for the maintenance of hundreds of thousands of deportees. There are no documents that support your claim that the deportees were fed and clothed at any of the camps but that is exactly what you demand that revisionists produce. You claim that, "They were there so they must have been maintained" but you have jack squat to document that.

From the USHMM:
August 2, 1943
Treblinka Uprising
Deportations and gassing operations halt at Treblinka. On this date, prisoners used for forced labor—fearing that the SS will soon kill them—stage a revolt. Prisoners seize weapons from the camp armory, but SS guards in the camp discover the plot before it can be completely implemented. Hundreds of prisoners nevertheless storm the main gate in an attempt to escape. SS and police guards kill many with machine-gun fire. More than 300 prisoners escape, but the SS and police personnel eventually recapture and kill two thirds of them.
From Zabecki:
All of this information is taken from records which I made and from which I created copies at the end of the war, copies which I still have to this day.
Right, the USHMM declares that deportations stopped on August 2, 1943. Zabecki claims that although 50% of the camp was burned down, transports continued until September, 1943. Zabecki also had records of trainloads of 8,000-10,000 passengers. Oh well, using Nessie's logic, no reason not to believe both Zabecki and the USHMM. Just gotta' use that old double-think mojo.

There is PROOF that deportees transited through T-II. Nessie claims that only 2,000-3,000 transited through T-II but can't explain how he arrived at that number. In any event, that's EVIDENCE that ~850,000 deportees transited through T-II. Nessie then demands documentary proof of the deportees maintenance; food, clothing and shelter from each of the camps where the deportees were sent. Nessie has NO, zip, zero, nada documentary proof for the maintenance of any of deportees but demands itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance from revisionists. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Let's see your documents for food and clothing for the known deportees, Nessie.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:05 pm
There are the documents you mentioned. There are witnesses who were on some of those transports. There is Majdanek that could accommodate that number of people.
The case is rested. People were transited out of TII.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:57 pm
Nessie wrote:
That link tells you how many people were accommodated at Majdanek.
That site provides NO documentation for any of it's claims. What can't you understand about that? Can you comprehend what a document is? You provide zero documents for your claims and then immediately demand hard copy written documents for the maintenance of hundreds of thousands of deportees. There are no documents that support your claim that the deportees were fed and clothed at any of the camps but that is exactly what you demand that revisionists produce. You claim that, "They were there so they must have been maintained" but you have jack squat to document that.
It is secondary evidence from the Majdanek camp museum of how many people were fed, clothed and accommodated at the camp, as there is no link to the primary evidence of the original documents. That is very good secondary evidence.

The witness and documentary evidence that Eric Hunt and Mattogno provided is sufficient to prove transports from TII to Majdanek. The Majdank museum evidence is sufficient to show that the camp was big enough to have been able to feed, clothe and accommodate those people.

To prove that c840,000 people were transported from TII to other camps, you need to provide similar evidence for each camp. You need a sample of witnesses, documents and to show the camp could accommodate those people.

The one witness to Budzyn, which could accommodate 3000 prisoners, is at least evidence that there was possibly a small transport to that camp.
From the USHMM:
August 2, 1943
Treblinka Uprising
Deportations and gassing operations halt at Treblinka. On this date, prisoners used for forced labor—fearing that the SS will soon kill them—stage a revolt. Prisoners seize weapons from the camp armory, but SS guards in the camp discover the plot before it can be completely implemented. Hundreds of prisoners nevertheless storm the main gate in an attempt to escape. SS and police guards kill many with machine-gun fire. More than 300 prisoners escape, but the SS and police personnel eventually recapture and kill two thirds of them.
From Zabecki:
All of this information is taken from records which I made and from which I created copies at the end of the war, copies which I still have to this day.
Right, the USHMM declares that deportations stopped on August 2, 1943. Zabecki claims that although 50% of the camp was burned down, transports continued until September, 1943. Zabecki also had records of trainloads of 8,000-10,000 passengers. Oh well, using Nessie's logic, no reason not to believe both Zabecki and the USHMM. Just gotta' use that old double-think mojo.
The USHMM entry reads that when the uprising took place that gassings and arrivals halted. It does not therefore mean they did not restart.
There is PROOF that deportees transited through T-II. Nessie claims that only 2,000-3,000 transited through T-II but can't explain how he arrived at that number.
That is not true. I explained how that number was obtained by tallying up the number of people in each transport according to each of the witnesses and I linked you to the TSF thread discussing Majdanek and the transports.

viewtopic.php?p=176108#p176108
In any event, that's EVIDENCE that ~850,000 deportees transited through T-II.
No, it is evidence 2-3,000 transited through TII.
Nessie then demands documentary proof of the deportees maintenance; food, clothing and shelter from each of the camps where the deportees were sent. Nessie has NO, zip, zero, nada documentary proof for the maintenance of any of deportees but demands itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance from revisionists. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Let's see your documents for food and clothing for the known deportees, Nessie.
I cannot provide you with the original German documents for the maintenance of prisoners at Majdanek. I am NOT demanding you provide the same.

What I am demanding is evidence, such as a reliable secondary source (such as the Majdanek Museum website) to prove that camp could have accommodated, fed and clothed the numbers sent there.

I am demanding witnesses and preferably documents to prove an arrival from TII and evidence that place could have accommodated that number of people.

There are witnesses who were on transports from TII to Majdanek (which when tallied make 2-3,000 deportees arrived).
There are some documents at Majdanek that recorded deportess arrived from TII.
There is evidence from the Majdanek Museum that the camp was large enough to have accommodated those people.

Now, unless you can do the same for other camps in Nazi occupied territory, then you have no evidence to prove c840,000 people left TII to go to and live at other camps.

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:03 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:05 pm
There are the documents you mentioned. There are witnesses who were on some of those transports. There is Majdanek that could accommodate that number of people.
The case is rested. People were transited out of TII.
There is sufficient corroborating evidence to prove c850,000 were sent to TII. There is sufficient corroborating evidence that 2-3,000 were sent on to Majdanek. There is some evidence there was also a transport to Budzyn.

That still leaves you with at least c840,000 unaccounted for.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:41 pm

That still leaves you with at least c840,000 unaccounted for.
Not at all, the acceptance that this TII is a transit camp is clear. It would appear the majority of Juden left the Reich prior to Barbarossa through these camps when they were border facilities; as mentioned, it is likely the Warsaw terrorists met their fate at Czerwony bor. Forgetting what some uninformed German might have said about the number of Juden left in the GG what evidence is there that people disembarked from transports at this place post Barbarossa? As there was a camp there it is highly likely, but the reasoning is that this camp is really a sub camp of TI entirely due to its proximity.

As this is a confirmed transit camp it is likely this served as a holding pen for Juden from nearby districts such as Bialystok;
some were sent to der bor for dispatch to heaven while most were sent to work placements on transports that left with the rocks from TI; in those days it was very common to add carriages for people or animals onto the rear of metal or coal trains.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
... as there is no link to the primary evidence of the original documents.
Precisely. There is NO documentary evidence that the deportees were fed, clothed or sheltered. Why, then, do you demand that revisionists produce such documentary evidence?
The witness and documentary evidence that Eric Hunt and Mattogno provided is sufficient to prove transports from TII to Majdanek. The Majdank museum evidence is sufficient to show that the camp was big enough to have been able to feed, clothe and accommodate those people.
There is NO documentary evidence for the maintenance of any of the deportees. Nessie is blowing smoke and horse frocky. See his above quote.
To prove that c840,000 people were transported from TII to other camps, you need to provide similar evidence for each camp. You need a sample of witnesses, documents and to show the camp could accommodate those people.
There is proof that an unknown number of people were transited through T-II to at least a dozen different camps. How do you KNOW that unknown number wasn't ~850,000? How do you KNOW those are the only camps where deportees were sent? It's up to YOU to prove that all 850,000 deportees weren't transited through T-II.
No, it is evidence 2-3,000 transited through TII.
No, it's PROVEN that an unknown number of deportees transited through T-II. There are two documents found by Mattogno, one document from the USHMM discovered by Heliotis and the statements of the deportees themselves. There is NO documentary evidence for their maintenance. That is EVIDENCE that as many as 850,000 deportees transited through T-II. If you have PROOF that only 2,000-3,000 transited through T-II then let's see it.
I am demanding witnesses and preferably documents to prove an arrival from TII and evidence that place could have accommodated that number of people.
The witnesses from the USC film archive claim to have been sent to Auschwitz, Budzyn and Majdanek. The record from the USHMM lists over a dozen different camps where deportees were sent. That's where they were sent so why the hell are you demanding to know if those camps could have accommodated them?
There are witnesses who were on transports from TII to Majdanek (which when tallied make 2-3,000 deportees arrived).
How do you KNOW that 2,000-3,000 deportees went only to Majdanek?
There are some documents at Majdanek that recorded deportess arrived from TII.
The document from the USHMM also claims that deportees went to over a dozen different camps. There are NO records for them being fed, clothed and sheltered at any of those camps.
Now, unless you can do the same for other camps in Nazi occupied territory, then you have no evidence to prove c840,000 people left TII to go to and live at other camps.
I've never claimed to have proven that ~840,000 people transited through T-II. I've offered evidence for that. I've offered proof that ~840,000 people weren't steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried, exhumed and cremated on the magic Jew barbeque. What proof do you have that deportees weren't sent to Auschwitz, Budzyn, Majdanek, Zanbrow, Rembertow, and other camps? Anything besides "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" that is? No, I didn't think so.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:54 pm
I've never claimed to have proven that ~840,000 people transited through T-II. nk so.
The issue is that all this is based on a telegram by Höfle; the assumption is that people were sent to a specific camp instead of the "line"; the pathway to the final destination. Obviously there was a T line to der arbeitslager which took in Häftling , no doubt stopping a few km down the track. Why not many multiple destinations like most transports or trains anywhere?

Is there hard evidence that the track went all the way to T1? Is there evidence that the rocks were put on the trains at T1?

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Re: Where did they go

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Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:54 pm
Nessie wrote:
... as there is no link to the primary evidence of the original documents.
Precisely. There is NO documentary evidence that the deportees were fed, clothed or sheltered. Why, then, do you demand that revisionists produce such documentary evidence?
I am not demanding that you provide documentary evidence that people were accommodated, fed and clothed at the camps you say they were sent to.

All you need to do is show that camp was big enough to be able to accommodate the people you claim were sent to it. So, for example, if you claimed 50,000 were sent too Budzyn, I would point out that it could only accommodate 3000.
The witness and documentary evidence that Eric Hunt and Mattogno provided is sufficient to prove transports from TII to Majdanek. The Majdank museum evidence is sufficient to show that the camp was big enough to have been able to feed, clothe and accommodate those people.
There is NO documentary evidence for the maintenance of any of the deportees. Nessie is blowing smoke and horse frocky. See his above quote.
I am asking for either or witness and documentary evidence to prove the TRANSPORTS.

I am asking for evidence, secondary will do, to show the size of the camp to prove it could ACCOMMODATE the people you claim were sent there.
To prove that c840,000 people were transported from TII to other camps, you need to provide similar evidence for each camp. You need a sample of witnesses, documents and to show the camp could accommodate those people.
There is proof that an unknown number of people were transited through T-II to at least a dozen different camps.
No, there is proof that 2-3,000 were sent to Majdanek and there was also likely a transport to Budzyn, which sonce it could only accommodate 3,000 people, will have been in the hundreds at the most.

The USHMM records merely list, out of order, the camps various witnesses to being at Treblinka were also at. All but one list Majdanek as one of the other camps they were at and in their testimony, they sya they went from TII to Majdanek.
How do you KNOW that unknown number wasn't ~850,000? How do you KNOW those are the only camps where deportees were sent? It's up to YOU to prove that all 850,000 deportees weren't transited through T-II.
There is no evidence that anyone else, other than the 2-3,000, left TII. There is no unknown number of people transported back out of TII. There is only the 2-3,000, the vast majority of whom were sent to Majdanek.

Since it is your claim that the others were transported back out, it is up to you to evidence that claim.
No, it is evidence 2-3,000 transited through TII.
No, it's PROVEN that an unknown number of deportees transited through T-II.
No, it is PROVEN that 2-3,000 left to Majdanek and probably Budzyn.
There are two documents found by Mattogno, one document from the USHMM discovered by Heliotis and the statements of the deportees themselves. There is NO documentary evidence for their maintenance. That is EVIDENCE that as many as 850,000 deportees transited through T-II. If you have PROOF that only 2,000-3,000 transited through T-II then let's see it.
There is only evidence to PROVE 2-3,000 were transitted through TII. There is no evidence to prove c850,000 were transitted through the camp. There is evidence to PROVE trains arrived full of people and either left empty or only containing goods.

You have no evidence at all that trains left TII full of people on a regular basis.
I am demanding witnesses and preferably documents to prove an arrival from TII and evidence that place could have accommodated that number of people.
The witnesses from the USC film archive claim to have been sent to Auschwitz, Budzyn and Majdanek. The record from the USHMM lists over a dozen different camps where deportees were sent. That's where they were sent so why the hell are you demanding to know if those camps could have accommodated them?
The tally of people on the transports described by those witnesses is 2-3,000 and they say they went first either to Majdanek or Budzyn. Those two camps at most could accommodate c70,000 between them at any one time and that assumes those camps ONLY accommodated people from TII and no where else.

That means you need to evidence and show which other camps took people from TII. We have accounted for 2-3,000 in two camps, so where did the others go?
There are witnesses who were on transports from TII to Majdanek (which when tallied make 2-3,000 deportees arrived).
How do you KNOW that 2,000-3,000 deportees went only to Majdanek?
From the evidence from Majdanek, as it only shows limited arrivals from TII and it could not accommodate much more than 2-3,000 (as it also accommodated prisoners from elsewhere) and from the evidence of the witnesses who worked at TII and on the railways who all said that empty trains left TII.
There are some documents at Majdanek that recorded deportess arrived from TII.
The document from the USHMM also claims that deportees went to over a dozen different camps. There are NO records for them being fed, clothed and sheltered at any of those camps.
Now, unless you can do the same for other camps in Nazi occupied territory, then you have no evidence to prove c840,000 people left TII to go to and live at other camps.
I've never claimed to have proven that ~840,000 people transited through T-II. I've offered evidence for that.
All you have offered is Eric Hunt and Mattogno's evidence which at best evidences 2-3,000 were transitted through TII. Considering there is evidence c850,000 were sent to TII, that is not enough to evidence TII was a transit camp.
I've offered proof that ~840,000 people weren't steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried, exhumed and cremated on the magic Jew barbeque.
Your arguments are not "proof" to any normal standard. No academic discipline uses your method.
What proof do you have that deportees weren't sent to Auschwitz, Budzyn, Majdanek, Zanbrow, Rembertow, and other camps? Anything besides "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" that is? No, I didn't think so.
There are only limited records & witnesses to of arrrivals from TII at Majdanek. There is a witness to arrivals from TII at Budzyn. The camps elsewhere have no evidence of arrivals from TII.

Remember your first rule of evidence, if it is not possible, it did not happen. It is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported c840,000 people to Auschwitz, Zanbrow, Rembertow and other camps without leaving any documentary or witness evidence at all and those places could not have physically accommodated tens of thousands of people arriving on most days, as they were not big enough, even A-B.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by been-there »

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:54 am
Obviously there was a T line to der arbeitslager which took in Häftling...

Is there hard evidence that the track went all the way to T1? Is there evidence that the rocks were put on the trains at T1?
Will a pre-war ordinance map, a recent satellite photo and a war-time aerial photo be 'hard' enough? ;)

Image
The T1 camp was adjacent to the end of the railway loop seen as the green square just below thw white arrow in the above aerial image from google-earth.

https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa29035

Image
Railways came to the area in the late 1880's. In 1887, a railway line was built from Małkinia Junction to Siedlce, with a station in Treblinka Village. A side track from Małkinia Junction was created to a local gravel quarry.
Nearbye Małkinia Górna Junction is where the main line between Warsaw and Białystok crosses with this secondary-importance line between Ostrołęka and Siedlce.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3067

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie is getting desperate. He wrote:
All you need to do is show that camp was big enough to be able to accommodate the people you claim were sent to it. So, for example, if you claimed 50,000 were sent too Budzyn, I would point out that it could only accommodate 3000.
Witnesses stated that deportees numbering from 100 up to trainloads were sent to Budzyn, Auschwitz, and Majdanek. There's records for 412 individuals arriving at Majdanek from T-II. One witness said that he stayed at Majdanek for ten days and was then sent elsewhere. Nessie says that nobody was sent from T-II to Auschwitz but offers no evidence for that.

There is no evidence that deportees were sent to one camp from T-II and stayed there for the duration of the war. On the contrary, it's shown that deportees were sent through multiple camps. T-II operated for a little over a year. Theoretically, Budzyn could handle 3,000 deportees per week or at least 150,000 deportees. Huntinger says that there were a total of 708 concentration camps with 192 in Poland alone. I mistakenly thought that he meant the General Government area. Mea culpa. That doesn't explain your cockamamie assumption that once a deportee left T-II he had to stay at the camp to which he was initially sent for the duration of the war.
I am asking for either or witness and documentary evidence to prove the TRANSPORTS.
You have the witness statements from the USC film archive and the documentary evidence from the USHMM. What are you bitching about?
I am asking for evidence, secondary will do, to show the size of the camp to prove it could ACCOMMODATE the people you claim were sent there.
OK, here's two names of camps taken randomly from the USHMM records; Zambrow and Rembertow. How many deportees could they accommodate?
No, there is proof that 2-3,000 were sent to Majdanek and there was also likely a transport to Budzyn, which sonce it could only accommodate 3,000 people, will have been in the hundreds at the most.
How do you come up with the number of "2-3,000" were sent to Majdanek and Budzyn? I've asked that question several times and you refuse to answer. Witnesses state that two trainloads were sent from T-II to Majdanek and Auschwitz along with anywhere from 100 to 500 being transited through T-II.
The USHMM records merely list, out of order, the camps various witnesses to being at Treblinka were also at. All but one list Majdanek as one of the other camps they were at and in their testimony, they sya they went from TII to Majdanek.
How do you KNOW that the USHMM listed the camps out of order? Be specific.
No, it is PROVEN that 2-3,000 left to Majdanek and probably Budzyn.
How have you proven that? Be specific.
The tally of people on the transports described by those witnesses is 2-3,000 and they say they went first either to Majdanek or Budzyn. Those two camps at most could accommodate c70,000 between them at any one time and that assumes those camps ONLY accommodated people from TII and no where else.
You aren't making any sense, Nessie. Kulawy and Schwartz both said that they left T-II with a trainload of other deportees. Kulawy said that they went to Auschwitz and Schwartz said that she and the other women were sent to Majdanek. Neither do you explain how you KNOW that there weren't other deportees. You don't mention the deportees of the USHMM records at all.
That means you need to evidence and show which other camps took people from TII. We have accounted for 2-3,000 in two camps, so where did the others go?
You still aren't making any sense. Are you losing your marbles? Zabecki said that a trainload was 8,000-10,000. Zabecki was no doubt lying his ass off but how do you KNOW how many deportees constituted a "trainload"? Why don't you mention the trainload of men, women and children who were sent to Auschwitz?
All you have offered is Eric Hunt and Mattogno's evidence which at best evidences 2-3,000 were transitted through TII. Considering there is evidence c850,000 were sent to TII, that is not enough to evidence TII was a transit camp.
The film clips from the USC film archives shown by Hunt and the document from the USHMM clearly show that deportees DID transit through T-II. What don't you understand about that? That is EVIDENCE that T-II functioned as a transit facility, not an extermination facility. Your claim that you somehow "know" that 2-3,000 were the only deportees who transited through T-II is pure bullshit.

Your alleged witnesses to T-II being an extermination facility are proven liars. The first rule of evidence is, "Is it possible". Your so-called witnesses make impossible claims. Therefore T-II wasn't an extermination facility that steamed/gassed/vacuumed victims and cremated their bodies on a magic Jew barbeque. Finito. End of story.

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